Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[kiwityke]

TheOriginalJez, I agree with your sentiments I just don't think people should sell a product, computer games, music or art then say what I can and can not do with the product I have purchased. The problem with copyright protection is it only really hurts legitimate buyers, pirates don't have to put up with this cr*p.

If SI are going to force me to give personal information to them so that I can play the game, they can go jump, because I for one will not be purchasing the game. I really don't see what was wrong with the old system of having to have the cd in the drive. Its never bothered me before. Having to give my personal info to people so I can play a game does (thats if I have to which by the sounds I might have to, to stop people from just passing the game to their mates).

[sean_lufc]

Will buy it but it's a ridiulous system.

This Big Brother state is getting ridiulous.

[neilb242]

TheOriginalJez, I agree with your sentiments I just don't think people should sell a product, computer games, music or art then say what I can and can not do with the product I have purchased. The problem with copyright protection is it only really hurts legitimate buyers, pirates don't have to put up with this cr*p.

If SI are going to force me to give personal information to them so that I can play the game, they can go jump, because I for one will not be purchasing the game. I really don't see what was wrong with the old system of having to have the cd in the drive. Its never bothered me before. Having to give my personal info to people so I can play a game does (thats if I have to which by the sounds I might have to, to stop people from just passing the game to their mates).

I agree with you. I've heard about Steam offering a back route into your computer too. That could well be untrue, but like you I just want to play the game without telling the manufacturer where I live and the name of my dog. Like I've already said,with this decision by SI or SEGA or whoever, I've gone from definite purchase to wait and see, and I don't think I'm the only one.

[TheOriginalJez]

That wouldn't allow SI to tell the difference between 1 guy installing the game on his 5 computers, and 5 guys installing the game each on their own computers - SI claims to be able to do that.

We won't learn more about the DRM used until the game is released, so it's anybody's guess exactly what information is gathered.

True but at the same time to quote miles a few times:

You won't need to set up any accounts, and you won't have to type in any personal info.

and of course

If people share the licenses, we will be aware of it, and it is piracy. It will be down to Sega to decide if action will be taken.

The first one coupled with telephone authorisation option restricts what information can be given... it's down to what can be collected in a number... and as everyone has their systems set up a little differently - many peoples user names aren't their full names and very few people have a 'my bank details.doc' in their my documents folder makes it kinda mysterious lol actually my curiosity's got the better of me, I can't wait to find out how they do it lol

[TheOriginalJez]

TheOriginalJez, I agree with your sentiments I just don't think people should sell a product, computer games, music or art then say what I can and can not do with the product I have purchased. The problem with copyright protection is it only really hurts legitimate buyers, pirates don't have to put up with this cr*p.

If SI are going to force me to give personal information to them so that I can play the game, they can go jump, because I for one will not be purchasing the game. I really don't see what was wrong with the old system of having to have the cd in the drive. Its never bothered me before. Having to give my personal info to people so I can play a game does (thats if I have to which by the sounds I might have to, to stop people from just passing the game to their mates).

The problem there is that you, like most people don't seem to actually understand what you're buying. You aren't buying the game or music (or digitally, art) you're buying a license to use it, with that license you're getting a copy to use by the terms of the license. Without the license, legally, you cannot use it. And lets face it all laws only get in the way of people who don't break them... you can't park on double yellow lines on streets where there's no traffic cops... And like I said Miles has specifically said you will type no personal information... (yes I do realise it's a little bit ambiguous)

PS, not saying you're a problem (just re-read it, didn't quite come out as I intended )

Will I be able to get the authentication code online when I want to install the game off different computers?

I have a home laptop and a home desktop. Now it's only the laptop that has internet connection and my Deskptop is just used for gaming.

You'll have to ring up for the second comp, or temporarily get it connected to the net. Phoning will be local rate or freephone though.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

You might have to make a phone call. From what I have gathered it's a toll-free UK number?

[sean_lufc]

it better be.

how long will this phone call take.

[neilb242]

Jez, I see where you're coming from. But for years I've been buying games from SI, and never had to prove myself. It just seems to be making the innocent prove they aren't guilty.

To use your parking example, if everytime you didn't park on double yellow lines you had to then ring someone to comfirm you were parked legally, wouldn't that be a bit annoying?

[TheOriginalJez]

Less than 5 minutes was what has been quoted by miles sean.

Have you ever tried parking in London Neil? And actually, in previous versions you've proved yourself by putting the disk in every time you play which was detected by a system called Securom, the developers of which landed in hot water recently over a few games especially Spore, which I believe was part of the reasoning behind moving away from them. This time you only have to prove yourself once. Like getting a parking permit so you can avoid the road with yellow lines instead lol enough with the parking analogies, I don't even drive lol

[sean_lufc]

I presume each disc will have a unqiue ID number/code and you will have to type it into the phone or something like that.

[neilb242]

I'm from the north so your advanced parking schemes are way over my head - although if you live in York too you know parking ain't easy there either!

I guess you're right about the CD thing, but then I'd expect to be doing that with any games I buy. This way just seems to highlight it all more if you get me. Before I never really thought about it, the CD went in and on I went. Now I feel like I'm being told I can't be trusted! I'll get over it I'm sure

[kiwityke]

The problem there is that you, like most people don't seem to actually understand what you're buying. You aren't buying the game or music (or digitally, art) you're buying a license to use it, with that license you're getting a copy to use by the terms of the license. Without the license, legally, you cannot use it. And lets face it all laws only get in the way of people who don't break them... you can't park on double yellow lines on streets where there's no traffic cops... And like I said Miles has specifically said you will type no personal information... (yes I do realise it's a little bit ambiguous)QUOTE]

I understand I am purchasing a license to use the product, I just don't see why the license has to restrict my use, the hard working paying customer, yet having no or little effect on the criminals. SI have probably paid a small fortune for this DRM, and all it seems to have done is alienate 22% of their customer base, and the guys who were going to pirate the game are still going to do so. The old system seemed much better to me, ie just having the cd in the drive, no need for faffing about getting the game authenticated etc, etc.

Miles has said that we don't have to put personal information to register the game but SI must be able to 'spy' on us to be able to tell that its me and not my mate registering the game more than once. Pirates don't have this 'spying' aimed at them, yet the legitimate user does. It just seems like a huge PR disaster to me.

Also I may or may not buy the game, like a few people I am going to wait and see what happens. I also think the game is going to be almost unplayable on the 14th as the servers will crash, the phonlines will be full and these forums will be full of people ranting about the DRM.

[neilb242]

Is there actually a thread will full and proper answers to what all this will entail? Like Sean, above, I'd like to know exactly what this process will involve

[Insert_Goal_Here]

I'm from the north so your advanced parking schemes are way over my head - although if you live in York too you know parking ain't easy there either!

I guess you're right about the CD thing, but then I'd expect to be doing that with any games I buy. This way just seems to highlight it all more if you get me. Before I never really thought about it, the CD went in and on I went. Now I feel like I'm being told I can't be trusted! I'll get over it I'm sure

From york myself and parking on your own drive can be impossible, damn tourists

[kiwityke]

I'm from the north so your advanced parking schemes are way over my head - although if you live in York too you know parking ain't easy there either!

I guess you're right about the CD thing, but then I'd expect to be doing that with any games I buy. This way just seems to highlight it all more if you get me. Before I never really thought about it, the CD went in and on I went. Now I feel like I'm being told I can't be trusted! I'll get over it I'm sure

I used to live in York it was a nightmare parking, although the ring road always seemed like a carpark to me as you never seemed to be moving! Parking in NZ is much easier most places have free parking...

[TheOriginalJez]

the faffing etc etc is a 30 second process by all accounts. As for spying if that were the case you'd need to be online every time you played, in fact you never have to be online after you've authenticated... I know where you're coming from the claim of being able to tell who's playing what does seem a little bit off but given the things we know about the drm (ie not having to be online etc) i'd say it's easier to question that claim than expecting that they're invading your privacy.

[TheOriginalJez]

Is there actually a thread will full and proper answers to what all this will entail? Like Sean, above, I'd like to know exactly what this process will involve

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=1903908

I guess you just have to wait and see for exactly, if you're worried about it I reccomend just waiting for a few weeks and seeing what everyone else thinks of it. seems the best way to me

[voona]

i think the protection use for FM09 is solidshield (maybe I am wrong) ..no ?

(miles said ,no securom ,no safedisc, no tages , no starforce...)

http://www.solidshield.com/en/Products

"Product activation module which supports both online and offline communication with activation servers."

what you think ?

ps:sorry for my english

[Indoctrin]

Picture the scenario...

Midnight 14th November... Thousands of people attempt to "athenticate" their copy of FM and the authentication system goes down....

I wouldn't want to be the person who would have to deal with the excrement storm that would follow.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

Once activated, the product is bound to end-user computer configuration preventing abusive software distributions. The activation servers are ready to support activations right after the product has been protected and offer a backend to our partners where to customise and manage the licenses.

Thought they want us to be able to put it on desktop and laptop if we are so inclined? Don't know.

[Hamselv]

No matter what, we always end up using car analogies. Just to prove I'm no better than everyone else I'll continue that trend

From what I've read either Spore or one if the other EA games required both an online activation and that the disc was inserted.

So, EA must believe in car analogies too, since they seem to compare playing Spore with driving a car. When driving you'll need both a drivers license (online activation) and to insert the ignition key (disc check). With SI we used to be able to drive forever without a drivers license (but with an ignition key), and now they expect us to go through the process of getting a drivers license (that might expire and render us unable to ever drive again), but have in return given us a car that starts without an ignition key.

Personally I would choose the car with the ignition key.

Hopefully this example proofs, if nothing else, that car analogies suck and that I'm currently too tired to post anything meaningful on the internet

i think the protection use for FM09 is solidshield (maybe I am wrong) ..no ?

(miles said ,no securom ,no safedisc, no tages , no starforce...)

http://www.solidshield.com/en/Products

"Product activation module which supports both online and offline communication with activation servers."

what you think ?

ps:sorry for my english

That sounds possible. I have heard the name "solidshield" somewhere before, but I can't quite place it - I think I'll look into that tomorrow.

[Dave.C43]

Solidshield was cracked by RELOADED about 18 mths ago!

[TheOriginalJez]

Yeah sorry the car analogies are my fault, I really don't know what's gotten into me lol I offer my whole hearted apologies. (no, really I do)

I don't think you've done too badly with it tbh, only thing is I'd say it's more like a rollercoaster ride... last time you had to go past the height barrier every time you played the game to make sure you were tall enough, this time you get a ticket and after they've checked your ticket once you can go on as many times as you like. (no cars )

I don't agree with the license thing because we have no evidence to say that we won't be able to get the authentication done easily, yes we also have no proof to say we won't but in the case that we can't then we do have grounds to go to SEGA and demand attention

BTW Miles mentioned that the DRM in this has not been seen before... maybe a new verion of solidshield then, or something else entirely

[voona]

Solidshield was cracked by RELOADED about 18 mths ago!

ok , but cracked without authentication online no ?

[NeilUK]

Am I missing something or didn't Miles say at some point that if you need to re-format your computer, as long as you un-install the game before doing so you will get that particular install back? Sounds fair to me so the 5 installs won't matter even for someone who regularly restores their system.

As for DRM, no issues for me though it is interesting that a good few website companies who have videos in their member areas who have used DRM in the past have now scrapped it. The reason is they found after research that it didn't actually stop copyright thieves effectively enough and :-

1. Was a key reason why prospective new members didn't sign up

and

2. Was the number one reason given by customers cancelling their account.

Whether it works better for games, who knows, I guess it does as more and more games companies are doing it.

But as I say the number of installs allowed shouldn't be a problem as long as the game is un-installed before restoring your system

[mertle]

You don't understand the DRM authentication system SI have implemented do you? You can have up to 5 simultaneous installs. You uninstall one you get that install back and you can do install it again. The only time you run out is if you don't uninstall it 5 times...

As for the music I pray to god there'd be a system for protecting the music better than it does. Do you have any idea how much piracy has cost the music industry? And who do you think has taken the losses? I'll give you a clue it ain't the record company execs.

I always felt copyright law madness that when I buy I dont own. I read that they can turn up and remove DVD's etc from your home with court orders. Its a crazy world that some day we could be all told to send everything back as we have no longer the rights to watch listen or play but we know it really wont happen like that as it would cause riots. Thats why this licince rubbish is stupid nonsensesical jargon. Its mainly more to stop you using DVD's or CD's as broadcasting and performance. Hence they say you have a licence. Whats next friends cant play games with you or cant watch you perform. Now you see it claptrap legal jargon arkwark minefield for joe public.

You equally not clear what is the issue DRM has lets put in simple terms. Your computer the DRM takes a snapshot of hardware if you change anything on the hardware side it will deem it a new machine. Try changing a graphics card in windows XP home and yes it has to re-authenticate.

Now if the DRM in FM09 works like XP authentication any tom **** & harry who cant afford one swoop upgrades and does it gradually could fall foul of the 5 authentication rule rather quickly.

SI needs to come out what constitutes a NEW PC.

Why not make it at least ten with time lapse in so registration is not needed say 2-5 years time. SI not said its time served DRM which would ease anger of DRM. Although would not still be happy at least it would be little more palatable for us who hate the idea of DRM.

I always given friends and families who cant afford new games my last version in this case it would have been FM2008 while I moved up. Now with this abomination of DRM its no longer the case. Would not be suprised many do the same with family/friends of old games. Its how I was weened into gaming years ago.

What likely potential dangerous situation scenerio those with geniune copies seeking hacks intime to stop/kill DRM. Which could cause massive issues unrest as si tell us this will cause altering game results sporadical stupids to stop piracy. Thanks a bunch for the narrow closed mindedness and madness.

On Those who want to check the sort people who like me said YES. Wonder how many are long standing SI gamers.

I have bought absolute every version of the game. If SI loses our custom they in for big shock on the sales front. How many those out there new or newish will get put off from buying the greatest management game ever.

The game dont deserve being left on shop shelves as its looking a fabulous incanation that I will only and many will see from a demo standpoint.

I have said my piece I will vote with my funds to give it a miss until SI sees sense and either make it absolute that DRM wont cause genuine purchasers grief.

1. if a crash causes re-install no loss of 5 strikes why should you be punished what happens if its ironic a bad unforseen bug in a game which causes melt down. Lets be honest everybody uses windows apart from macers. We all know how reliable microsofts windows can be at times and we all can get hardware grief which can cause you get several crashes. Even maliscious viruses can cause damages of a unstable windows environment.

2. change anything even HDD does not kill equally a activation.

3. Even New machines should not lose one validation Si should check mac address to detect if its same home.

4. it quits after next FM release or 2 versions afte

Whats so hard SI to not unrestrict your customers who pay your wages.

[aenariel]

DRM will not hurt FM's sales because most of the gamers aren't even aware of these modern protection schemes and will buy the game out of the shelves oblivious of what is imposed on them. As the game is more and more marketed at new users (instead of at the loyal fans) I stand by my point that hardly the game will see any kind of decrease on sales. In fact, it will be a huge success, bug-ridden, protected, limited, or not.

What scares me is that SEGA/SI will once again turn up a huge profit and themselves be oblivious that they are year after year opting for obsolete measures to combat piracy at the cost of giving their real customers potential big headaches, and at the cost of losing some hardcore fans. All this to stop absolutely nothing: it's a given fact that EVERY software protection either has been or will be cracked, and that those who opt for piracy will play the game - regardless of anything.

Unless game companies come up with personal security guards who follow each and every copy of the game and their owners around to check for them making copies, every protection ever released will be deemed obsolete very quickly.

I voted "yes" for the statistic. I'll still consider buying the game, but I won't fall in the mistake of pre-ordering or buying at the first day, following the hype. I'll buy it if I think its cost lives up to its quality, and I'll evaluate that by playing the demo and following fans' reactions. If I feel DRM or bugs ruin the game this year, I'll wait until either or both are removed by a patch before spending my honestly-earned money on it.

Not that I don't appreciate SI's work or anything, really. I have been a researcher in the past, have been an avid gamer and a dedicated editor, and have been involved with the community since the oldie CM times. I do very much appreciate SI's effort, work, and dedication to the series. I just don't know how well they are dealing with the pressure of being one of the most reputed software houses releasing games on the market. Success is seemingly going a bit up to their heads. FM has the potential quality to turn up a huge profit without these "anti-something" (I wouldn't call it anti-piracy) measures. If only the effort matches up to the yearly hype! SI is year after year investing more in marketing the game to the new users out there than investing in improving their reputation near their huge existing fanbase; and then they're surprised that "out-of-nowhere" new users come here and complain about problems in a game they did know nothing about, or that the community is so messed up they're unable to reply to stuff in the forums without people bashing them repeatedly...

This said, I'll stand on the sideline and eagerly observe how this whole situation evolves.

[CityTiD]

Nothing will ever put me off from buying the game i have played all my life

[feedthegoat]

Nothing will ever put me off from buying the game i have played all my life

I've played every incantation of the game even all the old CM's going back to CM93 on the Amiga.

But I won't be purchasing on release day, if at all.

[TheOriginalJez]

Mertle everything you've mentioned there has been gone over a million times in this topic or the original sticky, the answers don't change... SI are well aware of the issue if you reformat your comp or put in a new gfx card (in fact, miles addressed that exact question in the demo thread) and if you run out of installs legally you contact Sega tech support and we're told it will be addressed... I know that's not been the case with EA but lets face it we've had it pretty good with SI over the years, and if you don't trust them don't buy it til someone falls foul of it and has to ring Sega... see what happens.

As for 'copyright law madness' that'd 'never be enforced' if that were really the case the BPI would get thrown out every time they sue someone for music piracy... but they don't. Yes copyright to a large extent relies on moral enforcement, that people realise it's there for a reason and repect that, and actually most people do (they just don't see the need to post about it), but that you don't know anyone who's been sued for it etc doesn't mean it won't happen... they rarely catch bike theives but that doesn't mean they never do.

It really wouldn't surprise me if TIGA (or similar) start looking into the sort of action the BPI and ASCAP have been doing in the case of people who repeatedly completely ignore the copyright of games.

I've said it a million times though, if you don't like it you have no right to use it on different terms just because of it. If you do you're breaking the law, simple as.

Nothing will ever put me off from buying the game i have played all my life

*Raises very early morning glass* Nor should it

[CityTiD]

I've played every incantation of the game even all the old CM's going back to CM93 on the Amiga.

But I won't be purchasing on release day, if at all.

I still have my Amiga m8 and also the original game to go with it too, ah they where the days me and my m8 managing our teams on the same amiga.

[mertle]

DRM will not hurt FM's sales because most of the gamers aren't even aware of these modern protection schemes and will buy the game out of the shelves oblivious of what is imposed on them. As the game is more and more marketed at new users (instead of at the loyal fans) I stand by my point that hardly the game will see any kind of decrease on sales. In fact, it will be a huge success, bug-ridden, protected, limited, or not.

What scares me is that SEGA/SI will once again turn up a huge profit and themselves be oblivious that they are year after year opting for obsolete measures to combat piracy at the cost of giving their real customers potential big headaches, and at the cost of losing some hardcore fans. All this to stop absolutely nothing: it's a given fact that EVERY software protection either has been or will be cracked, and that those who opt for piracy will play the game - regardless of anything.

Unless game companies come up with personal security guards who follow each and every copy of the game and their owners around to check for them making copies, every protection ever released will be deemed obsolete very quickly.

I voted "yes" for the statistic. I'll still consider buying the game, but I won't fall in the mistake of pre-ordering or buying at the first day, following the hype. I'll buy it if I think its cost lives up to its quality, and I'll evaluate that by playing the demo and following fans' reactions. If I feel DRM or bugs ruin the game this year, I'll wait until either or both are removed by a patch before spending my honestly-earned money on it.

Not that I don't appreciate SI's work or anything, really. I have been a researcher in the past, have been an avid gamer and a dedicated editor, and have been involved with the community since the oldie CM times. I do very much appreciate SI's effort, work, and dedication to the series. I just don't know how well they are dealing with the pressure of being one of the most reputed software houses releasing games on the market. Success is seemingly going a bit up to their heads. FM has the potential quality to turn up a huge profit without these "anti-something" (I wouldn't call it anti-piracy) measures. If only the effort matches up to the yearly hype! SI is year after year investing more in marketing the game to the new users out there than investing in improving their reputation near their huge existing fanbase; and then they're surprised that "out-of-nowhere" new users come here and complain about problems in a game they did know nothing about, or that the community is so messed up they're unable to reply to stuff in the forums without people bashing them repeatedly...

This said, I'll stand on the sideline and eagerly observe how this whole situation evolves.

I have to agree this major oversight by si many will buy without knowledge of the DRM heck wont even read manuals or warning of such protection. Will due to not thinking suddenly find strike 1 loses 1 right to install the game.

Miles sorry you need to come back to the real world my friend. You are in great position of being able to probably afford quite few games which get released and possible own what you want. DRM is only preventing those who like gaming who has not bottomless pit of funds and with credit crunch there will be quite few ,ore hitting this catagory. So to stop the seconds market your going spite your nose, great idea not.

There in my opinion regardless UELA nothing wrong in de installing games your no longer wish to own giving them away to family/friends to see if they like it or trading in older version to get new versions. The industry got to get its head out of the sand.

Trading is great way to stretching your funds to not just get 1 game but often another you wanted but could not quite stretch the funds. With often the costs of games today the need to upgrade PC to mean machine beasts gaming is not cheap.

Miles you might want to start taking things in stock that myself have by giving older version away weened people to FM who would NEVER tried the demo's or bought your game gone on to purchase the new version after checking out getting hooked. Many and would say quite few here will purchase there favourates and not even batton an eye to other games/genre's. I got someone who was only interested in shoot them ups on FM and now he's an avid FM'er. I would think others here done the same.

On personal note I am completely getting sick to death of the attitude of the games industry and very close if not finally to breaking point of never ever purchasing games for the pc as I just cant do with the hassle anymore. The industry starting to treat its customers like dogs. I gone from maybe 3 to 4 pc games buys to 1 now and that was FM only thats it. Miles your decision made my mind up FM09 will not go onto my machine as I am sick to death with the industry as whole attitude. Well done I say alienate your customer base and future potential customer base.

I will be sticking with FM08 for the forciable future and not get involved in pc industry gaming forthwith until it changes its attitude towards what people do with there old games. Which is clearly why the industry going DRM you dont want us to trade old games to ease the burden of paying for latest versions. Which was system used by people on small incomes to enjoy the joys of gaming.

[Miles Jacobson]

Mertle - I've addressed all of the points you have made in this thread, and the sticky thread.

It is your right to not purchase the game, and I think we're pretty good as a studio in the regard of letting people have a long play demo before release so that they can make a purchasing decision on that basis. You have reservations with the new protection system, but I'm confident that when you see the system in action, how it doesn't impose on legitimate users, and the benefits that legitimate users will have from purchasing the game, we'll regain you as a customer

[TheOriginalJez]

many will buy without knowledge of the DRM heck wont even read manuals or warning of such protection

It's funny but half understanding DRM seems more damaging than not understanding it at all... I can't see that many people caring that they have to authenticate once if they don't already know about it...

[feedthegoat]

After reading Miles statement ro Mertle, I will, as I have said, probably end up buying FM09 maybe a week after release maybe a few weeks after release I don't really know, after playing the demo I may even buy it on release day, but all I can say is, that if there is so much as a problem with regards installation, uninstallation or even authentication, which is something which we've never had before, then I will not be a very happy bunny.

I must also admit I've been speaking to my dad about this, he's a keen FM'er as well (he's 65 btw!), he is actually on the side of SI with the whole DRM thing and can't see what the problem is, and he has said that I'd be mad to miss out this year, and that if there were any serious problems then SI would undoubtedly fix them.

That is the last I am going to say on the matter. Period.

I must admit though I am kinda looking forward to playing the demo

[mertle]

Mertle - I've addressed all of the points you have made in this thread, and the sticky thread.

It is your right to not purchase the game, and I think we're pretty good as a studio in the regard of letting people have a long play demo before release so that they can make a purchasing decision on that basis. You have reservations with the new protection system, but I'm confident that when you see the system in action, how it doesn't impose on legitimate users, and the benefits that legitimate users will have from purchasing the game, we'll regain you as a customer

Sorry Miles I wont buy into it you are being very Naive in think windows will play ball to always un install and even run like well oiled machine your talking about microsoft the worst company in the world. My experience is dont matter how well you look after windows you always get un expected crashes usually when upgrading or installing software or the unistaller goes pokey not remove files and leaves rubbish. By the way that has included many of your products I have had 20% not un install right from demo's to older manager versions. I dont like buying these utils which unistall why should I need to just to protect my seats.

Why should we suffer a loss seat if it cant be removed surely its your best interest to use a system which will allow users to re install many times on there PC even if the thing could not been removed in the first place.

Sorry PC gaming is dead for me I cant see me changing my mind. If you drop DRM or make it less restrictive to end user I might get FM10 or FM11.

I am going to see how things are 1 to 2 years down the line I might go back to PC gaming.

[data6930]

Miles, once the game has been cracked by one of the Scenes, what use is the DRM system against pirates?

The best way to actually combat pirates is to bloat the size of your game - most people in the UK have download limits. If your game is over 6gb people a) won't be bothered to let it download for days and b) won't want to use up a big chunk of their monthly cap.

Spot on with that they could have put a dummy file on the disk which forms part of a cd check and make the game 6 or 7 gb - this would certainly have cut down on people downloading a pirate copy for the reasons stated here.

The system SI have adopted is an accident waiting to happen.

In an earlier response Miles stated he did n't make the decision about DRM which begs an interesting question, if SI was still an independent company with no attachment to SEGA would they have gone down the route of DRM???

[ashp]

Well, in the end I pre-ordered via Steam, so you got my sale, but I'll always feel insulted by DRM. Anyone who torrents it won't have to ever even see the DRM, so only people who legitimately bothered to buy the game will be effected by it. I'll have to continue listing Stardock as the 'best game company' as they 'get' DRM.

[aenariel]

Mertle - I've addressed all of the points you have made in this thread, and the sticky thread.

It is your right to not purchase the game, and I think we're pretty good as a studio in the regard of letting people have a long play demo before release so that they can make a purchasing decision on that basis. You have reservations with the new protection system, but I'm confident that when you see the system in action, how it doesn't impose on legitimate users, and the benefits that legitimate users will have from purchasing the game, we'll regain you as a customer

Just to add my 2 cents: as you said Miles, "see it to believe it". I still stand by my point these measures are rather pointless, if you look at the whole picture. If much, they'll serve to check on how many copies you sold more effectively (as I assume copies will have a unique fingerprint and you'll be receiving its data upon registration). Regarding piracy, I think you must agree with most of us who say that it (unfortunately) won't stop people downloading the game, because we all know there really hasn't been an effective way to put a stop to piracy of a given game, by just checking on how many new releases get pirated very quickly after their release.

Anyway, I hope the new protection lives up to the defense you guys have been making for it. If it helps the game sell more, it's probably money well-spent. But I still fail to see why it should help the sales.

Sorry for the rant.

[andysafc]

Stardock one of the worlds biggest software developers have written 10 commandments they believe every person purchasing a game SHOULD be entitled to...

Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

For more information about Stardock's games and software, please visit www.stardock.com.

About Stardock

Stardock is one of the world's leading developers and publishers of PC games and desktop software. Its PC games include the upcoming strategy/RPG combo, Demigod as well as Sins of a Solar Empire, the highest rated and best selling PC strategy game of 2008 as well as the critically acclaimed Galactic Civilizations series. Its desktop software includes Object Desktop, WindowBlinds, and a host of other programs for customizing the Windows experience. Learn more about Stardock by visiting www.stardock.com.

[Hamselv]

Stardock one of the worlds biggest software developers have written 10 commandments they believe every person purchasing a game SHOULD be entitled to...

Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Amen to that

[DJdeMarco]

Although not related to the DRM directly, part of the EULA greatly concerns me.

"This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising. If you do not wish to receive contextual advertising messages, do not play this game while connected to the Internet."

Excuse me?

I don't want any 3rd party advertising software on my PC at all and I certainly won't be told to turn off my internet connection to stop it dialling home.

After seeing this sneakily hidden at the end of an EULA that most won't read I am concerned just what the DRM does contain.

A 15-year love affair has ended for me tonight.

[TheOriginalJez]

That's not the DRM it's the ingame ad-boards you get on the pitch for 3D. just block fm on firewall or I'm assuming there'll be an option in preferences to turn it off.

[Mungy]

sadly i won't be buying it because steam won't work on my computer. to get it to work i apparently have to uninstall antivirus software and other programs as steam has issues with the software.

i've been a CM/FM fan since 1993, a loyal customer for 15 years and this is my thanks.

thanks for nothing.

[DJdeMarco]

I know it isn't the DRM but if the games installs third party ad software, I don't hold out much hope for the DRM.

As a purchaser of the game I shouldn't have to block my internet connection to stop software I don't want in the first place from phoning home. Especially as this will also have the undesired effect of me being unable to have a network/internet game without it doing so, if it is as the EULA states. There is no mention of an option in preferences within the EULA, only to turn off your internet.

[TheOriginalJez]

sadly i won't be buying it because steam won't work on my computer. to get it to work i apparently have to uninstall antivirus software and other programs as steam has issues with the software.

i've been a CM/FM fan since 1993, a loyal customer for 15 years and this is my thanks.

thanks for nothing.

You don't need steam to play or authenticate. Steam is one of three options, read the first post of the sticky.

I don't believe the ad software is 3rd party, just the ads that show up and they are done by deals with SI from what Miles has said.

Oh and, imo, rather than giving up completely just wait and see what happens when other people install it and play?

[Mungy]

You don't need steam to play or authenticate. Steam is one of three options, read the first post of the sticky.

I don't believe the ad software is 3rd party, just the ads that show up and they are done by deals with SI from what Miles has said.

Oh and, imo, rather than giving up completely just wait and see what happens when other people install it and play?

option 2: a simple transaction that will take 30 seconds? i wonder what that is then?

[Hamselv]

After having installed the demo, and looked around at some of the files that were installed, I'm certain I now know which DRM system is being used. Miles doesn't want to give out that information before the game is released, and I respect the fact that there can be many good reasons for not doing that, so I'm not going to mention the name either.

I will say though that it's not Solidshield as someone suggested earlier.

I don't know how intrusive the chosen DRM is yet, since I've never heard about it before, but I'll be looking into that.

Update:

I do have a feeling that we might not be seeing pirated versions of FM09 shortly after release. If not then this could be a very smart move by SI. That being said, some of the people that crack games are most likely smarter than I could ever imagine, so who knows.

I can see why SI picked this DRM, because looking at some of their sales materials, they do make themselves sound like every publishers dream. By that I mean control, control, control, and yes you guessed it – even more control. There is probably a difference though between the number of functionalities that a DRM system offer, and the number of functionalities that a developer ends up actually using in their product.

One of the problems many people are having with EA's DRM system is that changing a few pieces of hardware requires you to re-activate your games. This DRM promises not to suffer from that, and after having read how they achieve that, I believe them. The way it's done isn't necessarily helping me with my slight DRM paranoia though

Finally, after having learned about the DRM have I changed my mind about not buying the game? No! I haven't seen anything that was better than what I expected.

The demo seems cool though, so it's a shame

[TheOriginalJez]

option 2: a simple transaction that will take 30 seconds? i wonder what that is then?

I imagine you give a code, they give one back to finish the install and it takes roughly 30 seconds? at a stab

[Serj]

If we have to pay for the phone call it should come of the price of the game. Also, if on 14th Nov the lines are busy I may need to buy a new phone the following morning