Marcelino's 4-4-2

[jc577]

Hi all,

Valencia have been playing some wonderful counter-attacking football this season, with Guedes, on-loan from PSG, their star man and Simone Zaza banging in the goals again. Marcelino has seemingly turned things around in a short space of time, and if things continue the way there are in La Liga, they will certainly push Barca for the title. 

I'm not trying to replicate exactly how they play, but rather transfer key elements and go from there. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of resources online currently, so i'm having to work off limited knowledge. That said, this is the tactic: 

For the most part I think the roles/duties are spot on, although I'm a little unsure on Soler, Kondogbia and to an extent both strikers. Zaza could be seen as an AF but i've noticed that both strikers drop behind the ball when defending, thus they are close together allowing quick interplay during transition. Will have to see how it plays out but any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers

[Kcinnay]

This article is a very good analysis of Marcelino's tactics at Valencia. It could give you some ideas. https://www.esdfanalysis.com/manager-analysis/valencia/

[Armistice]

Ok just giving my thoughts, I haven't watched Valencia this season at all but I noticed their good results and the transfer campaign where they signed some interesting players. Anyway, it seems like your left flank is a bit too aggressive for a counter-attacking side and you could probably see some goals leaked down that side, considering that Gaya is not very great at defending (10 Positioning afaik), he's on attack duty, you have an attack duty infront of him and a BWM in LCM + Close Down More TI. I would say, a FB-A is closing down higher up the pitch due to their positioning (similarily to the WB-S on the right side) and it could be enough to see that wide press from fullbacks. So I'd remove Close Down More imo.

Secondly, if you want to keep a double attack duty down your left flank, make sure that you have the strongest players down that side (especially defensively) and I would look into changing the BWM to a CM-S or so. You want to keep a compact shape in midfield and force the opposition to play wide, so you can press them in that area and win the ball.

[jc577]

48 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:

This article is a very good analysis of Marcelino's tactics at Valencia. It could give you some ideas. https://www.esdfanalysis.com/manager-analysis/valencia/

Thanks, i’ve already checked that out -  it is very insightful. The main concepts I picked out were: the narrowness of the midfield four when defending, the compactness between the lines & the two strikers dropping behind the ball. Not entirely sure how  to translate all these elements into the ME.

30 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Ok just giving my thoughts, I haven't watched Valencia this season at all but I noticed their good results and the transfer campaign where they signed some interesting players. Anyway, it seems like your left flank is a bit too aggressive for a counter-attacking side and you could probably see some goals leaked down that side, considering that Gaya is not very great at defending (10 Positioning afaik), he's on attack duty, you have an attack duty infront of him and a BWM in LCM + Close Down More TI. I would say, a FB-A is closing down higher up the pitch due to their positioning (similarily to the WB-S on the right side) and it could be enough to see that wide press from fullbacks. So I'd remove Close Down More imo.

Secondly, if you want to keep a double attack duty down your left flank, make sure that you have the strongest players down that side (especially defensively) and I would look into changing the BWM to a CM-S or so. You want to keep a compact shape in midfield and force the opposition to play wide, so you can press them in that area and win the ball.

The left-flank does seem overally aggressive I agree, we’d definitely be open to counters down that side. I’m still unsure on the midfield combo - Parejo is definitely a DLP but he can’t really run, so that’s why I opted for a BWM to do the running for him. I think Gaya is definitely a FB-a, especially if he has positioning of 10 as that means he basically can’t defend. 

Interesting point r.e. the high positioning of the full-backs; what you’re saying makes sense but due to playing on standard mentality the closing down is fairly passive - i’ll have to see how it plays out. 

I’m thinking about maybe giving Guedes a support duty - maybe that  ensure he sits narrower when we’re defending? 

[Curtinho]

I was actually looking for something like this. Originally I had planned to try and build a 3-5-2 that looks to retain possession deep to draw out the other team before hitting quickly on the counter (I will still probably try to do something like this) but for now this seems really interesting to me. I was thinking something like this:

 

DF (S) ---------------

----------------- SS (A)

WM (S) --------- BBM (S) ------------------ WM (S)

------------------------------------ DLP (D) ---------------

WB (A) ------- CD (D) ------- CD (D) ------- FB (S)

 

I went through a bunch of their games to see heat maps to try and figure out just how to set them up positionally. One thing I noticed is that they are very left heavy in terms of their attacking orientation (in possession almost all of those players see the ball more), or at least the way they move the ball up the field. I would have both wide midfielders sit narrow and cut inside with the ball, and the left one to maybe 'get further forward' as it would seem that way (I tried to find a few good games they had playing with more possession). The strikers are just a personal preference in the set-up for counter-attacking, though maybe there's something more appropriate. I'm not overly keen on having the DLP there as I don't like the idea of slowing the play down there or other players looking to focus through him but Parejo in that position seems to be right as the play does go through him more than other players on the team and he doesn't do a lot of running persay; I also wouldn't say he's an aggressive tackler or overly defensively robust. It's definitely systemic focus in terms of how the team defends rather than having any standout individuals in that sense. The fullbacks should also both be set to stay wider and the keeper have 'distribute quickly'.

 

As for how I'd set the mentality, structure and TIs...I'd start with something simple. Counter - Flexible with Higher Tempo, Slightly More Narrow and Exploit the Left Flank ticked. I'm tempted to also do 'Pass into Space' or 'More Direct Passing' but I'd start with the others and the base formation above first and tweak as necessary.

[jc577]

@Curtinho Have a look at this: 

This is the pass-map from the game against Barcelona last night; as you can see, Kondogbia is actually a lot deeper than Parejo. I've gone through the majority of pass-maps from their games this season and this seems to be a recurring theme - perhaps a bwm-d/dlp-s combo? The pass-map also shows the left-sided flank attacks you were referring to - Guedes is almost playing as a wide SS in this match. In other games his positioning isn't quite as high as this, but significantly more aggressive than his counterpart.. maybe WM-S with 'Get Further Forward'? He does have the PPM 'Gets into opposition area' so maybe the p.i. isn't necessary? 

I can't seem to pinpoint how the strikers play, it varies from game-to game. If I had to pick out a trend it would suggest that Zaza is deep than Rodrigo, so maybe DF-S/SS-a is an accurate suggestion. 

As for team instructions, I'm reluctant to add more direct passing as they're average possession for the season sits around 48%, and from what i've seen their counters are based on aggressive movements off-the ball combined with quick, short interchanges as opposed to long balls over the top (think Leicester). 

[LordKaivalya]

Also Gaya overlaps on Guedes a lot while Guests shifts in. Maybe Guedes could be an Inverted Winger on supper while Gaya is a Wing Back on attack?

[jc577]

6 hours ago, LordKaivalya said:

Also Gaya overlaps on Guedes a lot while Guests shifts in. Maybe Guedes could be an Inverted Winger on supper while Gaya is a Wing Back on attack?

He could be, although he seems more intent on shooting/playing through balls as opposed to crossing the ball - he practically plays as an Inside-forward. 

[Fosse]

Guedes is definitely an attack duty

[jc577]

1 hour ago, Fosse said:

Guedes is definitely an attack duty

 I agree, i’ve played a couple games and his movement doesn’t seem aggressive enough.. can i get away with two attack duties on the same flank?

[Curtinho]

53 minutes ago, jc577 said:

 I agree, i’ve played a couple games and his movement doesn’t seem aggressive enough.. can i get away with two attack duties on the same flank?

Maybe a solution to this would be having Gaya playing as a CWB (S) and the left wide mid playing as a WM (A) with 'cut inside' on the same side as the DF (S). 

16 hours ago, jc577 said:

@Curtinho Have a look at this: 

This is the pass-map from the game against Barcelona last night; as you can see, Kondogbia is actually a lot deeper than Parejo. I've gone through the majority of pass-maps from their games this season and this seems to be a recurring theme - perhaps a bwm-d/dlp-s combo? The pass-map also shows the left-sided flank attacks you were referring to - Guedes is almost playing as a wide SS in this match. In other games his positioning isn't quite as high as this, but significantly more aggressive than his counterpart.. maybe WM-S with 'Get Further Forward'? He does have the PPM 'Gets into opposition area' so maybe the p.i. isn't necessary? 

I can't seem to pinpoint how the strikers play, it varies from game-to game. If I had to pick out a trend it would suggest that Zaza is deep than Rodrigo, so maybe DF-S/SS-a is an accurate suggestion. 

As for team instructions, I'm reluctant to add more direct passing as they're average possession for the season sits around 48%, and from what i've seen their counters are based on aggressive movements off-the ball combined with quick, short interchanges as opposed to long balls over the top (think Leicester). 

You're right of course. When I was quickly looking at the heat maps before and just throwing something together I wasn't paying as much attention to the focus of their touches rather just the general spread. I would rather use Kondogbia as a DM (S) with 'Get Further Forward' ticked so that he doesn't roam as much or play as aggressively against the ball but he still jumps up and joins in on the attack like he does with Valencia for real (or maybe DM (S) would be enough to do that and he doesn't need 'Get Further Forward').

I think this with 'Counter: Flexible' and 'Much Higher Tempo', 'Slightly More Narrow' and 'Exploit the Left Flank' is the way to start. I still don't like the idea of a playmaker in the middle but at the same time I think those two roles are a good way to trying to replicate what Kondogbia/Parejo do on the field. It also replicates how the right wide player tends to stay a bit wider and also how Parejo gets the most touches of the non-defenders but is relatively static while the left side sees most of the play.

Let me know what you think or if you're trying it out differently!

[jc577]

5 hours ago, Curtinho said:

You're right of course. When I was quickly looking at the heat maps before and just throwing something together I wasn't paying as much attention to the focus of their touches rather just the general spread. I would rather use Kondogbia as a DM (S) with 'Get Further Forward' ticked so that he doesn't roam as much or play as aggressively against the ball but he still jumps up and joins in on the attack like he does with Valencia for real (or maybe DM (S) would be enough to do that and he doesn't need 'Get Further Forward').

I think this with 'Counter: Flexible' and 'Much Higher Tempo', 'Slightly More Narrow' and 'Exploit the Left Flank' is the way to start. I still don't like the idea of a playmaker in the middle but at the same time I think those two roles are a good way to trying to replicate what Kondogbia/Parejo do on the field. It also replicates how the right wide player tends to stay a bit wider and also how Parejo gets the most touches of the non-defenders but is relatively static while the left side sees most of the play.

Let me know what you think or if you're trying it out differently!

Hey man, i'm finally happy (I think) with the roles and duties, on paper at least. As you can see, i've dropped both CM's down the DM strata - not sure how accurate this is but I'm not a fan of asymmetric tactics. Another variation could be a cm-d/dlp-s combo, but kondogbia does get up to support attacks occasionally so i'm hoping the sv-s will replicate his movement in both attack/defence. I'm excited for the Gaya/Guedes combination on the left - looks much more balanced now but still very attacking. I've asked Guedes to cross less often and dribble more; he already has the ppm 'cuts inside from left wing' so there wasn't much point asking him to do so.  On the right, soler should push up into the space that Rodrigo vacates, whilst Montoya sits around the half-way line. I could switch to a w-s/fb-s combo, but i'll stick with this for now as i like my players driving towards goal rather than away from it. 

Let me know what you think 

[Helmerzinho]

how does this fly ingame tho? i am stoked by the efforts to recreate this you ahve put in! job well done!!!! 

[jc577]

28 minutes ago, Helmerzinho said:

how does this fly ingame tho? i am stoked by the efforts to recreate this you ahve put in! job well done!!!! 

haven’t actually had time to play out the tactic yet so don’t congratulate me just yet  very excited to see if it works though, so watch this space 

[Armistice]

Great, looking forward to some testing here.

[jc577]

6 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Great, looking forward to some testing here.

Me too, i’ve got some free time tomorrow so will report back then 

[Curtinho]

On 11/28/2017 at 15:01, jc577 said:

Hey man, i'm finally happy (I think) with the roles and duties, on paper at least. As you can see, i've dropped both CM's down the DM strata - not sure how accurate this is but I'm not a fan of asymmetric tactics. Another variation could be a cm-d/dlp-s combo, but kondogbia does get up to support attacks occasionally so i'm hoping the sv-s will replicate his movement in both attack/defence. I'm excited for the Gaya/Guedes combination on the left - looks much more balanced now but still very attacking. I've asked Guedes to cross less often and dribble more; he already has the ppm 'cuts inside from left wing' so there wasn't much point asking him to do so.  On the right, soler should push up into the space that Rodrigo vacates, whilst Montoya sits around the half-way line. I could switch to a w-s/fb-s combo, but i'll stick with this for now as i like my players driving towards goal rather than away from it. 

Let me know what you think 

I have my reservations about some of the instructions and it not being on a 'counter' mentality (I really think that it needs to be narrower in defending to be true to the real life play). Having Kondogbia as a Volante is a great touch though; I haven't had much time to actually play FM18 yet so I was just speculating about the formation/tactics and thinking of it in FM17 terms. The roles look pretty great I would say except on the right I would still have it as a FB (S) as it doesn't seem he ventures forward much in most of the heat maps I've checked out (especially compared to Gaya). 

That said test it out and let me know how it performs and if it gives you kind of what you were looking for.

[Jean0987654321]

If you are trying to emulate Marcelino Garcia Toral tactics at Valencia,  its is sometimes best to watch some of the games. I have and I see that his tactics are similar to the ones during his Villarreal stint.

You could take a look at my attempt from the ealier FM editions if you need any help

The game nowadays is a bit different ME-wise so this time I'd prolly keep it simple.

Counter/Rigid

TIs: Pass Into Space, Higher Tempo, Close Down More, Whipped Crosses

I'd start off with that. Marcelino is a more displined coach and he usually sets his teams to have a "high press in a low block" shape. This theory isn't new to soccer as Mourinho, Simeone, Naglessmann, Jupp, and Lucien Favre have a similar way of defending.

GK

CWB (a)-CD-CD-WB (a)

WM (a)-REG-SV (s)-WM (a)

AF (a)-F9 (s)

 

The front two emulates the creator-scorer type approach Marcelino has his strikers do up top. Back in VIllarreal, Gio or Leo was the creator and Vietto or Bakambu or SOlado was the scorer. I see a lot of that in Zaza and Rodrigo Moreno. However, both men have the ability to fill in both of the roles if necessary so maybe set them to swap each other.

 

[Kcinnay]

I'm toying with a 4-4-2 myself. It seems that if you give your wide midfielders a support mentality, a close down more PI and no tight marking PI, they tuck in to the center in the defensive phase and defend really narrowly, just like the wide midfielders in Marcelino's teams do.

[thizaum]

Hi all,

 

Big Valencia fan here.

From what I've seen, I would go with very fluid (compactness) and:

Zaza as AF, Rodrigo as DLFs

Soler on the left as WMs or IWs, Kondogbia as CMd, Parejo as APs, Guedes on the right as Wa

Gaya as FBa, 2 CBd, Montoya as FBs 

[jc577]

Hi guys,

Quick little update:

We've played 7 competitive games - Won 4 Drawn 3 Lost 0, including a 3-1 at home to Madrid. We've been solid if not spectacular, and the last two games have been a bit of a struggle. 

This is what i've been toying with:

I had the strikers the opposite way around to begin with, but I noticed the F9 would drop deep and not really have any viable passing options. With the F9 shifted to the right, he should have support from the WM-a surging past him and the SV-s as a deeper alternative. Really struggling to get anything out of Guedes.. his tactical familiarity is quite low but he has the attributes to play as a WM-a so surely it can't have the much of an effect? Another issue is that transitions seems to be fairly slow, which is odd seeing as our possession stats are low 40%'s annoyingly. Still early days but things aren't clicking as they should.

On the plus side, we're undefeated and have a look at our shape off the ball:

Our wide-midfielders have tucked in fairly narrow, exactly what I'm after. I'm considering dropping the strikers to the AM strata as although i've pushed up the d-line due to playing with dm's, there's still quite a lot of space for the opposition to advance with the ball.

Essentially just looking to add some more attacking flair to the tactic, any ideas?

[thizaum]

11 hours ago, jc577 said:

Our wide-midfielders have tucked in fairly narrow, exactly what I'm after. I'm considering dropping the strikers to the AM strata as although i've pushed up the d-line due to playing with dm's, there's still quite a lot of space for the opposition to advance with the ball.

Essentially just looking to add some more attacking flair to the tactic, any ideas?

Why are you playing flexible?

I understand that you should go with fluid or very fluid in order for your 3 lines to be more compact.

I'd personally go with CMs, but that might compromise your "narrowing wingers" that you like.

[jc577]

5 hours ago, thizaum said:

Why are you playing flexible?

I understand that you should go with fluid or very fluid in order for your 3 lines to be more compact.

I'd personally go with CMs, but that might compromise your "narrowing wingers" that you like.

I think the lines do look compact, with the strikers being the exception. I have thought about going fluid but it has a few drawbacks:

1. More players are involved in transition - not sure this a good thing as we’ll be vulnerable to counters ourselves if we all rush forward.

2. It will encourage my strikers to prioritise the team mentality (counter) over their own, making them more defensive. 

I think that structured shapes are more suited to counter-attacking than fluid ones, and I think I could get defensive behaviour out of the strikers by moving them to the AM strata.

[Curtinho]

On 12/4/2017 at 14:02, jc577 said:

Hi guys,

Quick little update:

We've played 7 competitive games - Won 4 Drawn 3 Lost 0, including a 3-1 at home to Madrid. We've been solid if not spectacular, and the last two games have been a bit of a struggle. 

This is what i've been toying with:

I had the strikers the opposite way around to begin with, but I noticed the F9 would drop deep and not really have any viable passing options. With the F9 shifted to the right, he should have support from the WM-a surging past him and the SV-s as a deeper alternative. Really struggling to get anything out of Guedes.. his tactical familiarity is quite low but he has the attributes to play as a WM-a so surely it can't have the much of an effect? Another issue is that transitions seems to be fairly slow, which is odd seeing as our possession stats are low 40%'s annoyingly. Still early days but things aren't clicking as they should.

On the plus side, we're undefeated and have a look at our shape off the ball:

Our wide-midfielders have tucked in fairly narrow, exactly what I'm after. I'm considering dropping the strikers to the AM strata as although i've pushed up the d-line due to playing with dm's, there's still quite a lot of space for the opposition to advance with the ball.

Essentially just looking to add some more attacking flair to the tactic, any ideas?

I'm not sure that 'Push higher up' should really be selected. Even though your average possession is already down I feel like having that limits the space with which you can counter into and as a result might influencing the slower transitions (I also think with using the 'Counter' mentality having 'Much Higher Tempo' is probably better). The other thing I'd look at is whether or not there's some issues with the transitions because of the DLP. As much as Parejo does see more of the ball than others in the team I don't know anymore that I'd necessarily allocate that as a 'playmaker' so to speak (and I'm still unsure that he should be in the DM strata) because maybe players are stopping to look for him instead of advancing the ball.

I'd still make is Gaya as a CWB -- not sure that the WB (S) role really brings out how much he contributes in attack. Maybe also have the AF be an SS (A) so that he's more available during transitions.

Sorry I know this sounds like a lot of changes but maybe even trying them one at a time to see how they influence the tactic would be helpful. Hope it works out! I haven't had time to test out my own version so I'm sure your testing will influence how I set up initially.

[Vico Vito Pep]

I've been following this thread for a little while. Thought I'd contribute a bit.  If you look at the average position (Oriented from the top down) of Los Che vs Barcelona (taken from Valencia website),  you can see how much higher & narrow Guedes is on the Left compared to Soler on the right.  IW (A) seems to be the best suited position for Guedes with PI's Sit Narrower & Roam from Position. 

[goqs06]

Caught this video online just now. I didn't really understand why Marcelino would choose a 4-4-2 shape when most teams in Spain opt for a 3 man midfield, but I now better understand his philosophy.

[jeesh]

This is a difficult tactic to replicate in FM. I have a few questions. 

1) Team Shape- Should it be Structured or Fluid? Because most players seem to go beyond their basic duties in VCF when attacking, but at the same time when defending they keep shape. 

2) How do you get the two strikers to press like they do in real life. Zaza, Rodrigo/Mina literally drop to midfield to press opposition? 

3) How do you block passing lines of opposition in FM? 

4) How do you manage Soler in FM? Because in real life you cant call him a 100% wide player. He starts out wide, but also goes narrow to add solidity of a 3 man midfield. 

5) What type of pitch dimension is good for VCF strategy? 

And having tried recreating this in FM, i also had a lot of issues with the midfield duo of Kondogbia/Parejo. Too much of space between them, Parejo especially not good enough defensively . 

[JoeSFC]

On 03/04/2018 at 01:10, jeesh said:

This is a difficult tactic to replicate in FM. I have a few questions. 

1) Team Shape- Should it be Structured or Fluid? Because most players seem to go beyond their basic duties in VCF when attacking, but at the same time when defending they keep shape. 

2) How do you get the two strikers to press like they do in real life. Zaza, Rodrigo/Mina literally drop to midfield to press opposition? 

3) How do you block passing lines of opposition in FM? 

4) How do you manage Soler in FM? Because in real life you cant call him a 100% wide player. He starts out wide, but also goes narrow to add solidity of a 3 man midfield. 

5) What type of pitch dimension is good for VCF strategy? 

And having tried recreating this in FM, i also had a lot of issues with the midfield duo of Kondogbia/Parejo. Too much of space between them, Parejo especially not good enough defensively . 

Recently started up a Valencia save and was interested in replicating Marcelino’s system. 

1. I’ve gone fluid team shape for that compactness vertically to make it difficult for opposition to penetrate through. Helps the team become more of a unit defensively restricting space. But also still been able to maintain an outlet on the counter primarily in the form of Rodrigo which is a key component of Marcelino’s sides. He’s been dropping 7.5+’s so far and can’t stop scoring

2. Currently using Rodrigo as an SS and Zaza as a DF. They track back quite well (fluid team shape influence), occasionally they’re pressing direction can be a bit off with both closing down the one player making it quite easy to bypass. Maybe skewing the closing down PI for both might see improvement, not quite sure

3. Difficult to pull off, if you’re looking for that compactness horizontally I’d recommend a more defensive menaltity. Can balance it out with the likes of higher tempo, more closing down etc to really imitate Marcelino. Chance creation might be a bit low and personnel’s finishing isn’t quite up to standard though 

4. I’ve gone Wide Playmaker (S) for Soler. His positioning in this passmpa below is quite representative of a WP I feel.

5. I’ve been going for the most narrow dimensions possible to make it increasingly difficult to play through, particularly centrally. But would also advise a decent length to capitalise on the space between the lines and in behind on the counter. Plenty of pace in the side I’m sure you can capitalise on. Parejo and Kondogbia have decent technicals like passing, dribbling and particularly mentals such as vision & off the ball to potentially exploit the space between the lines. 

[TheBigBoss]

On 28/11/2017 at 14:35, Curtinho said:

Maybe a solution to this would be having Gaya playing as a CWB (S) and the left wide mid playing as a WM (A) with 'cut inside' on the same side as the DF (S). 

You're right of course. When I was quickly looking at the heat maps before and just throwing something together I wasn't paying as much attention to the focus of their touches rather just the general spread. I would rather use Kondogbia as a DM (S) with 'Get Further Forward' ticked so that he doesn't roam as much or play as aggressively against the ball but he still jumps up and joins in on the attack like he does with Valencia for real (or maybe DM (S) would be enough to do that and he doesn't need 'Get Further Forward').

I think this with 'Counter: Flexible' and 'Much Higher Tempo', 'Slightly More Narrow' and 'Exploit the Left Flank' is the way to start. I still don't like the idea of a playmaker in the middle but at the same time I think those two roles are a good way to trying to replicate what Kondogbia/Parejo do on the field. It also replicates how the right wide player tends to stay a bit wider and also how Parejo gets the most touches of the non-defenders but is relatively static while the left side sees most of the play.

Let me know what you think or if you're trying it out differently!

I'm using this shape but I've got inverted winger (a) it's working a treat in my Valencia save won 13 lost 2 in the league them losses coming away to Bilbao and Barca both away, even managed to beat Madrid 3-1 at home. In terms of TI's I went with Pass into space, whipped crosses, play narrower, much higher tempo and push higher up