UEFA's Greatest Ever Teams: Tactical Replications: No.2 - Bela Guttmann's Benfica 3-2-4-1 Fluid Attack

[ifoundthatessence]

Hey guys, 

So after my Sacchi tactic was completely dominant, winning Serie A by 13 points in Season 2 and the Champions League, i got a bit bored, and thought i'd go through all of UEFA's Greatest Ever Teams. The entire list published by UEFA is as follows: 

 

·        Hungary 1950-56: the Magical Magyars

·        Real Madrid 1956-60: the European pioneers

·        Benfica 1960-62: Eusébio's Lisbon marvels

·        Inter Milan 1962-67: the 'Grande Inter'

·        Ajax 1971-73: the kings of 'total football'

·        Bayern 1973-76: Germany's first world-beaters

·        AC Milan 1988-1990: See my replication here

·        Real Madrid 1998-2002: the Galácticos

·        Barcelona 2008-12: Guardiola's greatest 

 

Bela Guttmann's Benfica is an exciting tactic to replicate. Watching them on YouTube, they score A LOT of goals, and do concede a lot to. Under Guttmann Benfica won two league titles in 1959/60 and 1960/61 as well as a Portuguese Cup in 61/62, historic back-to-back European Cups in 61 and 62, beating Barcelona 3-2 at the Wankdorf Stadium in Bern and Real Madrid 5-3 in Amsterdam’s Olympisch Stadion

 

I'm starting from ground zero here, since no users seem to have replicated this tactic before. So if you know a bit about his approach, feel free to let me know, and i can improve the fidelity of the tactic. 

 

The formation 

 

 

Here we can see Benfica lining up in a 3-2-4-1 formation. 

Perhaps the defining feature of the tactic was the role of Eusebio, his role being disguinshed from that of Mario Coluna who played in a deeper role. Together this team "created some of the most beautiful attacking, flowing football the world had ever seen".

 

Watching some of the games on YouTube, we can see them playing 2 out and out wingers, whilst the full backs contribute mostly in a defensive capacity, with the two holding midfilders assisting with defensive phases. Forwards do get involved in defensive work also. 

 

What do we know about the Playing Style ? 

 

 

When Guttman was asked what the essence of his tactic was, he replied

Quote

"If we do not have the ball, we have to mark; if we have it, we must run into space...I don't mind if our opponents score three or four goals as long as my team scores four or five" also "I never minded if the opposition scored, because I always thought we could score another.”

In this case we must use the attacking, or even overload mentality, with tighter marking and some losing down, as well as pass into space, with player instructions set to more risky passes.  

 

These football times noted that: 

Quote

 

Guttmann was also adamant on tactical intelligence, with a prevalence for a more expansive formation that made powerful and versatile wingers a crucial aspect brought a variation to the setup of teams. In Guttmann’s system, a further midfielder was dropped back to offer more protection in defence while the centre forward was withdrawn tfrom the frontline, much as Sebes had done at Wembley a few years earlier to devastating effect with Nándor Hidegkuti. 

 

We therefore need to play a wide system, with out and out wingers, as well as playing a defensive midfilder in front of the back three. Although as noted below, the false nine was not a feature of Benfica per se. I would go for a Complete Forward. 

 

 

World Soccer noted that

Quote

"Guttmann was a part of the sub culture of football thinkers who were catalysts for a very early foundation for Total Football. The 1930’s had seen the Austria Wunderteam develop a style of quick passing taken from the legendary Scotsman Jimmy Hogan. The triumvirate of Gusztáv Sebes, Márton Bukovi and Béla Guttmann adapted this to include rigorous training regimes, fluid movement and versatility amongst players. The Hungarian side also featured perhaps the earliest incarnation of the false 9, a tactic that was unprecedented at the time. The great Barça team masterminded by Pep Guardiola has its roots in the Hungarian football constructed by those three men. The successes of many other famous sides can also be linked back to their tactical innovations" 

I think in this case, Guttmann should be considered as belonging to the school of quick possession football, with a very fluid structure.

 

Note that, at Benfica, he doesn't use the false 9, the striker  José Águas: Known as 'Golden Head' for his aerial ability, forward Águas enjoyed European success at the very end of his Benfica career, scoring in both of his side's final victories. António Lobo Antunes, one of Portugal's most important contemporary writers, said of him: "

Quote

He epitomised elegance, intelligence, integrity, talent, and when I thought of becoming a writer, my wish was to be the José Águas of literature."

Here i'm thinking Andre Silva.

 

 

Obviously replicating Eusébio:

Quote

"He was the best player of all time,"

said Alfredo Di Stéfano after Eusébio's death in January 2014. Eusébio had amazing control, physical power and thunderous finish scoring  41 goals in 64 games for Portugal, will be difficult for now I've got Deli Alli, and if i intend to take Milan forward using both the Sacchi tactic, as well as the Guttmann, then it might be the case i need to find a more suitable player. 

 

The squad were also known for their togetherness and work rate and determination. In the final against Real for example they were 2-0 down, and turned it around to win 5-3, with Bela Guttman noting "I never found players who felt their shirt so strongly as the ones at Benfica"

 

Watching the games, for others games check for links in the side bar of the YouTube videos, 

Their is a lot of dribbling to carry the ball forward, especially from their 4 attacking midfilders. And they play at a very high tempo. 

 

The FM replication

 

 

 

Tactic is available from http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1222378453, if you download it, you can also see how I've tailored the PI's for this formation, in order to get Alli more involved, as the Eusebio. 

 

The Results

 

 Perhaps a little too much Guttmann !!! 

 

 

Just beat City at the Etihad 3-2 

4mins in total football 

 

 

[cez]

great Idea for these experiments man looking forward to the results, just one thing, please don't replicate Grande Inter's tactic with Milan

[ifoundthatessence]

2 hours ago, cez said:

great Idea for these experiments man looking forward to the results, just one thing, please don't replicate Grande Inter's tactic with Milan

Good idea cez - i will do the tactics with each of the correct teams. 

Just starting now with Benfica for the Guttmann tactic. Then i'll do Grande @ Inter

Guttmann actually cursed the club, saying they'd never win a European trophy for 100 years, so it's added element to the tactic. 

 

[Cain89]

Could you try to recreate Ancelotti diamond from 2003 and 2005, please?

[ifoundthatessence]

2 minutes ago, Cain89 said:

Could you try to recreate Ancelotti diamond drom 2003 and 2005, please?

definitely, it's on my agenda. Will do it next time i play with Milan actually. 

This one you mean ? 

 

 

[Cain89]

il y a 1 minute, ifoundthatessence a dit :

definitely, it's on my agenda. Will do it next time i play with Milan actually. 

This one you mean ? 

 

 

yes this one or the 2005 one with Cafu on the right, Maldini on the left with a Stam Nesta CB, and Kaka instead of Rui Costa.

Both are great tactic very enjoyable to see.

 

I'm trying to make it but i'm struggling playing at the same time direct counter attacking and possession football with a lot of ball geating thrue the regista

[Jean0987654321]

55 minutes ago, Cain89 said:

Could you try to recreate Ancelotti diamond from 2003 and 2005, please?

I've taken a bite a while back...

and someone else did too

 

[ifoundthatessence]

On 05/12/2017 at 21:56, Jean0987654321 said:

I've taken a bite a while back...

and someone else did too

 

Hey buddy

i quite like your interpretation with regards roles, obviously cain89 wants kaka in behind shev(dlf-a) and pippo (p-a). 

Also I'm  putting Gattuso as a DMCR Segundo, and Seedorf as MCL CM- A, to move from a Xmas tree to asymmetrical diamond. Cafu a higher mentality than Maldini. 

however I think the critical issue with your interpretation is how you get the slow build up in front of defence with faster counter attacks cos in essence the engine doesn't want to do this. I did this to a degree in my FM17 Sarri tactic so will be interesting to see if this can be done with counter attack. Set most TIs to create a short passing game, but then  use midfielders and attackers PIs to create a counter game, on counter mentality with mixed passing (PIs for shorter passing for defenders). Midfielders more risky passes mixed. 

Tempo is normal cos you can slow it down in first third using instructions and speeds it up in final using instructions. 

To get the structure play highly structured with stick to positions, but give kaka and seedorf More roaming. 

Defensive line looks slightly deeper with some closing down and zonal marking. Get stuck in can be used, and ease off for some players i.e. Forwards. 

Pirlo set to more risky and more direct passes, does anyone know if a regista is as magnetic as a DLP ? I might run a few replications of the same game and see. Pirlo needs PPMs - comes deep dictates plays killers and tries long range passes. 

Inzaghi needs beats offside. Kaka runs with ball gets into oppo area and 1-2s. Shev cuts inside and 1-2s. Cafu get forward whenever and 1-2s. Gattuso dives in + gets forward whenever. Seedorf plays 1-2s and gets forward. Maldini crosses from deep. 

 

 

[ifoundthatessence]

On 05/12/2017 at 21:56, Jean0987654321 said:

I've taken a bite a while back...

and someone else did too

 

 

On 05/12/2017 at 21:08, Cain89 said:

yes this one or the 2005 one with Cafu on the right, Maldini on the left with a Stam Nesta CB, and Kaka instead of Rui Costa.

Both are great tactic very enjoyable to see.

 

I'm trying to make it but i'm struggling playing at the same time direct counter attacking and possession football with a lot of ball geating thrue the regista

Traveling ATM but tactic worked amazingly well - see screenshots added to original post. 

Amazing considering it's unfamiliar and I don't have the right players at all 

[cbcruz]

.. and clean that monitor screen! 

[Cain89]

Il y a 7 heures, ifoundthatessence a dit :

Hey buddy

i quite like your interpretation with regards roles, obviously cain89 wants kaka in behind shev(dlf-a) and pippo (p-a). 

Also I'm  putting Gattuso as a DMCR Segundo, and Seedorf as MCL CM- A, to move from a Xmas tree to asymmetrical diamond. Cafu a higher mentality than Maldini. 

however I think the critical issue with your interpretation is how you get the slow build up in front of defence with faster counter attacks cos in essence the engine doesn't want to do this. I did this to a degree in my FM17 Sarri tactic so will be interesting to see if this can be done with counter attack. Set most TIs to create a short passing game, but then  use midfielders and attackers PIs to create a counter game, on counter mentality with mixed passing (PIs for shorter passing for defenders). Midfielders more risky passes mixed. 

Tempo is normal cos you can slow it down in first third using instructions and speeds it up in final using instructions. 

To get the structure play highly structured with stick to positions, but give kaka and seedorf More roaming. 

Defensive line looks slightly deeper with some closing down and zonal marking. Get stuck in can be used, and ease off for some players i.e. Forwards. 

Pirlo set to more risky and more direct passes, does anyone know if a regista is as magnetic as a DLP ? I might run a few replications of the same game and see. Pirlo needs PPMs - comes deep dictates plays killers and tries long range passes. 

Inzaghi needs beats offside. Kaka runs with ball gets into oppo area and 1-2s. Shev cuts inside and 1-2s. Cafu get forward whenever and 1-2s. Gattuso dives in + gets forward whenever. Seedorf plays 1-2s and gets forward. Maldini crosses from deep. 

 

 

Look's good. Can you share it on steam?

 

Not working for the moment. I think i miss the PI's with a very weak d

[ifoundthatessence]

Cain

Yeah i can, although it's not as good as the 3-2-5 Guttmann or the Saachi so far, i'd prefer to have a play around, gonna start at Man City cos they have enough cash to quickly bring in the right players for it. I have totally the wrong team for the tactic @ AC, and i don't wanna start ****ing around with the playing squad in that game. So far, i played 5, won 3 drew 2 versus Man City home, and away at Sassuolo, so not convinced of it atm, but could be because of the playing squad.  

Will have a muck around with City now, tweak it tomorrow, and post tomorrow evening. 

 

[Jean0987654321]

12 hours ago, ifoundthatessence said:

Hey buddy

i quite like your interpretation with regards roles, obviously cain89 wants kaka in behind shev(dlf-a) and pippo (p-a). 

Also I'm  putting Gattuso as a DMCR Segundo, and Seedorf as MCL CM- A, to move from a Xmas tree to asymmetrical diamond. Cafu a higher mentality than Maldini. 

however I think the critical issue with your interpretation is how you get the slow build up in front of defence with faster counter attacks cos in essence the engine doesn't want to do this. I did this to a degree in my FM17 Sarri tactic so will be interesting to see if this can be done with counter attack. Set most TIs to create a short passing game, but then  use midfielders and attackers PIs to create a counter game, on counter mentality with mixed passing (PIs for shorter passing for defenders). Midfielders more risky passes mixed. 

Tempo is normal cos you can slow it down in first third using instructions and speeds it up in final using instructions. 

To get the structure play highly structured with stick to positions, but give kaka and seedorf More roaming. 

Defensive line looks slightly deeper with some closing down and zonal marking. Get stuck in can be used, and ease off for some players i.e. Forwards. 

Pirlo set to more risky and more direct passes, does anyone know if a regista is as magnetic as a DLP ? I might run a few replications of the same game and see. Pirlo needs PPMs - comes deep dictates plays killers and tries long range passes. 

Inzaghi needs beats offside. Kaka runs with ball gets into oppo area and 1-2s. Shev cuts inside and 1-2s. Cafu get forward whenever and 1-2s. Gattuso dives in + gets forward whenever. Seedorf plays 1-2s and gets forward. Maldini crosses from deep. 

 

 

I really disagree with the role of Gattuso. Gattuso covered every blade of grass and was always hunting for the ball because Pirlo is not a traditional DM. I'd even say Gattuso could be a Carrillero and just modify his PIs a bit and you got the Gatusso role down pact...

[Khazard]

On 05/12/2017 at 17:42, ifoundthatessence said:

Hey guys, 

So after my Sacchi tactic was completely dominant, winning Serie A by 13 points in Season 2 and the Champions League, i got a bit bored, and thought i'd go through all of UEFA's Greatest Ever Teams. The entire list published by UEFA is as follows: 

 

·        Hungary 1950-56: the Magical Magyars

·        Real Madrid 1956-60: the European pioneers

·        Benfica 1960-62: Eusébio's Lisbon marvels

·        Inter Milan 1962-67: the 'Grande Inter'

·        Ajax 1971-73: the kings of 'total football'

·        Bayern 1973-76: Germany's first world-beaters

·        AC Milan 1988-1990: See my replication here

·        Real Madrid 1998-2002: the Galácticos

·        Barcelona 2008-12: Guardiola's greatest 

 

Bela Guttmann's Benfica is an exciting tactic to replicate. Watching them on YouTube, they score A LOT of goals, and do concede a lot to. Under Guttmann Benfica won two league titles in 1959/60 and 1960/61 as well as a Portuguese Cup in 61/62, historic back-to-back European Cups in 61 and 62, beating Barcelona 3-2 at the Wankdorf Stadium in Bern and Real Madrid 5-3 in Amsterdam’s Olympisch Stadion

 

I'm starting from ground zero here, since no users seem to have replicated this tactic before. So if you know a bit about his approach, feel free to let me know, and i can improve the fidelity of the tactic. 

 

The formation 

 

 

Here we can see Benfica lining up in a 3-2-4-1 formation. 

Perhaps the defining feature of the tactic was the role of Eusebio, his role being disguinshed from that of Mario Coluna who played in a deeper role. Together this team "created some of the most beautiful attacking, flowing football the world had ever seen".

 

Watching some of the games on YouTube, we can see them playing 2 out and out wingers, whilst the full backs contribute mostly in a defensive capacity, with the two holding midfilders assisting with defensive phases. Forwards do get involved in defensive work also. 

 

What do we know about the Playing Style ? 

 

 

When Guttman was asked what the essence of his tactic was, he replied

In this case we must use the attacking, or even overload mentality, with tighter marking and some losing down, as well as pass into space, with player instructions set to more risky passes.  

 

These football times noted that: 

We therefore need to play a wide system, with out and out wingers, as well as playing a defensive midfilder in front of the back three. Although as noted below, the false nine was not a feature of Benfica per se. I would go for a Complete Forward. 

 

 

World Soccer noted that

I think in this case, Guttmann should be considered as belonging to the school of quick possession football, with a very fluid structure.

 

Note that, at Benfica, he doesn't use the false 9, the striker  José Águas: Known as 'Golden Head' for his aerial ability, forward Águas enjoyed European success at the very end of his Benfica career, scoring in both of his side's final victories. António Lobo Antunes, one of Portugal's most important contemporary writers, said of him: "

Here i'm thinking Andre Silva.

 

 

Obviously replicating Eusébio:

said Alfredo Di Stéfano after Eusébio's death in January 2014. Eusébio had amazing control, physical power and thunderous finish scoring  41 goals in 64 games for Portugal, will be difficult for now I've got Deli Alli, and if i intend to take Milan forward using both the Sacchi tactic, as well as the Guttmann, then it might be the case i need to find a more suitable player. 

 

The squad were also known for their togetherness and work rate and determination. In the final against Real for example they were 2-0 down, and turned it around to win 5-3, with Bela Guttman noting "I never found players who felt their shirt so strongly as the ones at Benfica"

 

Watching the games, for others games check for links in the side bar of the YouTube videos, 

Their is a lot of dribbling to carry the ball forward, especially from their 4 attacking midfilders. And they play at a very high tempo. 

 

The FM replication

 

 

 

Tactic is available from http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1222378453, if you download it, you can also see how I've tailored the PI's for this formation, in order to get Alli more involved, as the Eusebio. 

 

The Results

 

 Perhaps a little too much Guttmann !!! 

 

 

Just beat City at the Etihad 3-2 

4mins in total football 

 

 

This actually works with the one CB? How bad is it defensively? 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Could you give Arsenal WM a go at some poiint?

[ifoundthatessence]

 

18 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

I really disagree with the role of Gattuso. Gattuso covered every blade of grass and was always hunting for the ball because Pirlo is not a traditional DM. I'd even say Gattuso could be a Carrillero and just modify his PIs a bit and you got the Gatusso role down pact...

Hey buddy 

How do you think of a Segundo ?  I gave him that because i thought a ball winning mid would limit him defensively ? Segundo seems to fit what he did ? Charging around winning tackles and getting up in support ?

Still struggling with this atm, it's nowhere near as effective as Sacchi and Guttmann.  

[ifoundthatessence]

17 hours ago, Khazard said:

This actually works with the one CB? How bad is it defensively? 

it's bad defensively, but i don't think I've lost a game yet with any team with it. 

Lot of 3-1s, 4-2s, 5-3s, 6-1's....

[ifoundthatessence]

13 hours ago, Pablo Sanchez said:

Could you give Arsenal WM a go at some poiint?

Absolutely yeah. 

It's on the list for sure. 

Just working on Grande Inter, have given up on the diamond Ancelotti, cos it's annoying me. 

[Jean0987654321]

54 minutes ago, ifoundthatessence said:

 

Hey buddy 

How do you think of a Segundo ?  I gave him that because i thought a ball winning mid would limit him defensively ? Segundo seems to fit what he did ? Charging around winning tackles and getting up in support ?

Still struggling with this atm, it's nowhere near as effective as Sacchi and Guttmann.  

BWM won't limit his defensively unless you're playing someone who doesn't have the right attributes (Aggression, Tackling, Marking, Pace, Strength, etc). SV, IMO, if anything should prolly be Emerson's role when he played for Milan but thats about it

[goqs06]

@ifoundthatessence could you try the 1998-2002 Real Madrid Galacticos?!

[ifoundthatessence]

Hello mate, of course I can. 

 

Just working on developing a Simeone at the moment, which is tricky and taking up a lot of time !! 

 

Do remind me if I forget. 

 

J 

[carloshcorbalan]

que gusto saber que estas trabajando en táctica Diego Simeone....

Estaré esperando el desarrollo de táctica próximamente....

Gracias.