The Total Football discussion

[SmileFaceGamer]

Hello and welcome to this thread where anyone and their dogs can discuss the genius tactic of Total Football in FM, wether that be wanting tips to create it (like me) or to learn a different way of doing it (also me, I have a way in my head). When you come to this thread, if you leave that little bit more enlightened about this than before, it has achieved you purpose. Also the same applies if you have successfully help a person achieve just that. So enjoy...

[wixxi]

 

[SmileFaceGamer]

10 hours ago, wixxi said:

 

Yup fair enough, I wanted to create an FM18 thread though

[Generation-Next]

That covers all the modern games tbf though.

[TheJanitor]

Ozil's thread was a beauty, no doubt, but it is inactive now, and a good discussion is something this place needs right now. Especially when it comes to a subject like Total Football that people could have different ideas about.

@SmileFaceGamer you want tips to recreate that style, do you have an idea in mind? What team you are playing? Maybe this article could be place to start: http://spielverlagerung.de/2016/12/14/tuerchen-14-ajax-internazionale-1972/

[Lobaeux4]

Good article!

since my Milan save is focused on youth development, I think a Total Football discussion is appropriate.  There have been some great article and threads on here down the years, would like to see others’ inputs on how they’re achieving this. 

[SmileFaceGamer]

2 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Ozil's thread was a beauty, no doubt, but it is inactive now, and a good discussion is something this place needs right now. Especially when it comes to a subject like Total Football that people could have different ideas about.

@SmileFaceGamer you want tips to recreate that style, do you have an idea in mind? What team you are playing? Maybe this article could be place to start: http://spielverlagerung.de/2016/12/14/tuerchen-14-ajax-internazionale-1972/

Team is Ajax. I’m trying a 3-1-3-3 which has been inspired by Bielsa. My worry is that I’ve got the Champions League Best Placed 3rd Quali round comming up, and I got the toughest tie against OGCN, if I’ve got it wrong (no fullbacks or wingbacks) then they will punish me. The screenshot button isn’t working on my computer but I have a picture to work with so it is easier to help. Just bare in mind it is slightly outdated as that was with PSV, which didn’t sit right also the midfield roles are changed. It is now two CAR-S and a central AP-A.

Btw Ozil’s thread is what inspired me to try my hand at ’Totaal Voetbal’, do a youth dev save and st up a new, more updated thread.

[SmileFaceGamer]

45 minutes ago, Lobaeux4 said:

Good article!

since my Milan save is focused on youth development, I think a Total Football discussion is appropriate.  There have been some great article and threads on here down the years, would like to see others’ inputs on how they’re achieving this. 

Nice, how’s the Milan save going and whats your tactic like?

[TheJanitor]

22 minutes ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

Team is Ajax. I’m trying a 3-1-3-3 which has been inspired by Bielsa. My worry is that I’ve got the Champions League Best Placed 3rd Quali round comming up, and I got the toughest tie against OGCN, if I’ve got it wrong (no fullbacks or wingbacks) then they will punish me. The screenshot button isn’t working on my computer but I have a picture to work with so it is easier to help. Just bare in mind it is slightly outdated as that was with PSV, which didn’t sit right also the midfield roles are changed. It is now two CAR-S and a central AP-A.

Btw Ozil’s thread is what inspired me to try my hand at ’Totaal Voetbal’, do a youth dev save and st up a new, more updated thread.

Forgot the screen  If you are more comfortable, just type the roles and instructions.

Are you just using the Bielsa formation or trying to replicate his style? If it is the latter, Bielsa got really nothing to do with the Total Football of Ajax in the 70s.

[SmileFaceGamer]

25 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Forgot the screen  If you are more comfortable, just type the roles and instructions.

Are you just using the Bielsa formation or trying to replicate his style? If it is the latter, Bielsa got really nothing to do with the Total Football of Ajax in the 70s.

I’m using his formation. It’s me trying to create a bit of a midfield and defensive passing diamonds to move the ball through. It’s somthing I’ve seen as a trait in other tactics so I’m trying this.

[TheJanitor]

Formation wise, I don't think you are that exposed, with that back three and DLP/d creating a very strong triangle in defence. I would probably go with the wingers at the WM starta, especially now with the new Inverted Wingers role, but it doesn't mean your way won't work.

Instruction wise, you went down the stereotypical "attractive football" route. Very Fluid, Control, a bunch of instructions that insinuate that you will play slick, fluid football. But all of this grouped togther makes me feel uncomfortable. I'd probably try something like this with a fantastic side like Man City but as Ajax I suspect things might not always work, especially at European competitions. You also forgot the most definitive Total Football instruction, Roam From Position. It was a huge part of what that philosophy was all about.

I would start with a 3-1-4(MRLC)-1, forget about mentality and shape for a while, and go with something like Roam From Position, Play Out Of Defence and Close Down Much More, just to get a hint of that style going, and build from there.

[goqs06]

Hey @SmileFaceGamer if you want Total Football in its originality, or its later use in Guardiola’s and Biesla’s philosophies?

[SmileFaceGamer]

9 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Formation wise, I don't think you are that exposed, with that back three and DLP/d creating a very strong triangle in defence. I would probably go with the wingers at the WM starta, especially now with the new Inverted Wingers role, but it doesn't mean your way won't work.

Instruction wise, you went down the stereotypical "attractive football" route. Very Fluid, Control, a bunch of instructions that insinuate that you will play slick, fluid football. But all of this grouped togther makes me feel uncomfortable. I'd probably try something like this with a fantastic side like Man City but as Ajax I suspect things might not always work, especially at European competitions. You also forgot the most definitive Total Football instruction, Roam From Position. It was a huge part of what that philosophy was all about.

I would start with a 3-1-4(MRLC)-1, forget about mentality and shape for a while, and go with something like Roam From Position, Play Out Of Defence and Close Down Much More, just to get a hint of that style going, and build from there.

In the edrevise I should be fine. Ajax are the best team in the league and I have tied down Dolberg (Man City bid), De Ligt (Swansea bid) and Van De Beek (req) to new deals. I do intend to remove play out of defence after reading your advice. On the thought of roam from position, I feel it would contradict the very,fluid shape so I have a question, Would my wingers track back more? Many thanks, especially if we beat Nice

[SmileFaceGamer]

4 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Hey @SmileFaceGamer if you want Total Football in its originality, or its later use in Guardiola’s and Biesla’s philosophies?

Kind of a bit of both. Especially in the set up. A Bielsa formation, a best of worlds from Cruyff (not afraid to go direct) and Guadiola (the extra pass) as well as true total football compleate players requirement and very fluid

[SmileFaceGamer]

To everyone in the thread and in the SI community

 

Merry Christmas

[goqs06]

In all forms of Total Football, there are 3 key tenants, the 3Ps:

Possession

Pressing

Positioning

[SmileFaceGamer]

I think I have them, so I’m gonna stick to my guns, try and control the first leg and then be a bit more cautious on the away trip, possibly with what @TheJanitor suggested

[goqs06]

I’d suggest using Carrileros for your MCL and MCRs. They’ll cover for your wingers when they Attack, occupying the half space vacated by them on their respective flanks. Supports Cryuff’s philosophy on mainiating the overall formation by swapping positions.

[SmileFaceGamer]

On Carrileros, I was already doing that in a change that I didn’t record on camera. I’ve just had the first leg against Nice btw. We won 2-1 in a fairly tight game. Their goal came from poor defending at the front followed by a lump up in front of their quick man. Caught me backpedaling. Dolberg (playing in the Cruyff role) and Van De Beek (main Playmaker) both played incredibly well, which is encouraging. Now I need to know what to change to be more solid in the away leg.

[SmileFaceGamer]

And now we move over to Nice, where they play Ajax in the Champions League 3rd Qualifying Best Placed Playoff Round. Over to our commentator on Ajax Voetbal Kanaal

Thank you. We are live at the Allianz Riviera for OGCN vs AFC Ajax. Here come the teams.

9 mins: Bossaerts with the free kick. He gives it to Eiting who passes to Ziyech. Ziyech with a good ball to Dolberg but Dante stops him going through. Now it’s with Nice and Reyes. He goes to Pléa who pick some it up out wide. Good tackle by Veltman and it’s back with Ajax. Short pass to Cerny who has two players on him. Backheel to Ziyech who goes to Sinkgraven. Back to Veltman and he finds a good ball to Ziyech. Ziyech now running at the Nice defence, past 1, 2, 3! He takes a pop! Excellent save from the Nice keeper! (chance)

10 mins: Nice free kick out wide. Sneijder takes. He passes it to Reyes. Reyes to St Maxim to Jallet. It’s one touch stuff on the edge of the Ajax box. Jallet with a beautiful ball out to Séri who crosses to Balotelli. Balotelli flick on to Dante... GOAL! Dante heads home from 6 yards. OGCN1(2)-(2)0 AJX. Nice lead on away goals

Sneidj sends Ajax to attack

13 mins: Sinkgraven takes the throw. Dolberg runs on to it. Dolberg looks for the pass but Séri intercepts. Now it’s with Dante. He goes to partner Marlon. Marlon to Sneijder. Back to Dante, then Marlon, then the keeper. Cardinale goes for St Maximin. He looks for the pass but Veltman cuts it out. He goes to Cerny. Cerny to Eting. Eting to Schöne. Schöne looks for Ziyech and Ziyech finds a beautiful ball to Kluivert. Flick on to Dolberg and GOAL! AJAX BACK INFRONT! OGCN 1(2)-(3)1 AJX

22 mins: Pléa goes to Reyes. His cross into the 6 yard box is intercepted. Schöne clears but only as far as Sarr who goes back to Reyes. Another cross intercepted. Jallet gets the loose ball and finds St Maximin who shoots... GOAL, THEOUGH ONANA’S LEGS! OGCN 2(3)-(3)1 AJX

yeah I cant finish. Christmas dinner time. You get the picture though, end to end stuff

[yonko]

I would try 3-4-3 with Inverted Wingbacks and HB like this:

 

_____DCR________DC________DCL_____

IW_______________HB______________IW

_________________CM-A______________

IF-S______________________________IF-S

__________________CF-S_______________

 

IFs instructed to stay wider

[SmileFaceGamer]

1 hour ago, yonko said:I would try 3-4-3 with Inverted Wingbacks and HB like this:

 

_____DCR________DC________DCL_____

IW_______________HB______________IW

_________________CM-A______________

IF-S______________________________IF-S

__________________CF-S_______________

 

IFs instructed to stay wider

Yes, this may have stopped me from getting a first half spanking at the hands of CSKA in the UCL playoff round. Went back to my guns at HT and dominated the second half. Drew 1-1 and I now pray the gods are on my side cause PSV and CSKA’s return leg comming up...

btw I am not switching for PSV, the formula I have is working. The team just can’t concentrate (1st day draw, 87th min equaliser by Heerveen)

[goqs06]

This should help you out @SmileFaceGamer @yonko

 

 

[SmileFaceGamer]

7 hours ago, goqs06 said:

This should help you out @SmileFaceGamer @yonko

 

 

Didn’t realised you watched Tifo Football. It was the first port of call for me when I started the construction of my tacfic

[Brian]

It's all about the space on the field when you want to play 'Total Football'. 

[SixPointer]

Good reading this thread thinking of starting as Sc heerenveen after the winter update is out and going for this sort of philosophy and club DNA

[SmileFaceGamer]

55 minutes ago, SixPointer said:

Good reading this thread thinking of starting as Sc heerenveen after the winter update is out and going for this sort of philosophy and club DNA

God dammit, Heerenveen are always my bogey team whenever I do Ajax, no idea why.

[SixPointer]

I done Nac Breda when they were in the 2nd division got them to a league title eventually. Enjoyed it. But this time I’m going to do it different something I’ve never done am going to try do a club dna right threw the club and eventually go home grown!! So thought heerenveen never won a title  have a decent academy and facilities and there from the north as an from Scotland you could also say we are northern! 

[Joey Numbaz]

Hey guys, thought you might be interested in this tactical post I just created, I did a bunch of research and came up with what I think is a workable Total Football tactic. I debated posting it here, but then it got pretty long and I figured it's own thread might be better. I'd love any feedback. Thanks!

 

 

[alanschu14]

I didn't see but as the football newb in general... what IS Total Football?

[Joey Numbaz]

1 minute ago, alanschu14 said:

I didn't see but as the football newb in general... what IS Total Football?

The Dutch/Ajax system from the early 1970s. Lots of player switching, covering for each other, heavy pressing, etc. It's been a little exaggerated in the legend, but Ajax won a few Champions Leagues and the Dutch made the Finals of two World Cups with it.

[alanschu14]

Just now, Joey Numbaz said:

The Dutch/Ajax system from the early 1970s. Lots of player switching, covering for each other, heavy pressing, etc. It's been a little exaggerated in the legend, but Ajax won a few Champions Leagues and the Dutch made the Finals of two World Cups with it.

Is the idea about "Total Football" meaning basically that everyone is involved in all aspects of play then? I'm probably leveraging a bit of FM terminology here but yeah, I know of Ajax and have heard they have a great history.

If that's what they called it I can probably also do some searching online for more info. Thanks!

[Joey Numbaz]

4 minutes ago, alanschu14 said:

Is the idea about "Total Football" meaning basically that everyone is involved in all aspects of play then? I'm probably leveraging a bit of FM terminology here but yeah, I know of Ajax and have heard they have a great history.

If that's what they called it I can probably also do some searching online for more info. Thanks!

There are a few links to get you started in the post I linked above.

Everyone can be involved, but it's not like Cruyff was playing fullback. From what I've been reading, their big innovations were converting from the 4-2-4 to the 4-3-3, and vertical switching, not horizontal switching. So things like W/WB and ST/CM, as opposed to just the W/ST/W swapping. W realizing the WB is forward and dropping back, stuff like that. The CB/SW apparently did some switching too, at least in the 1972 final against Inter.

[alanschu14]

10 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

There are a few links to get you started in the post I linked above.

Everyone can be involved, but it's not like Cruyff was playing fullback. From what I've been reading, their big innovations were converting from the 4-2-4 to the 4-3-3, and vertical switching, not horizontal switching. So things like W/WB and ST/CM, as opposed to just the W/ST/W swapping. W realizing the WB is forward and dropping back, stuff like that. The CB/SW apparently did some switching too, at least in the 1972 final against Inter.

Nice! I can see how this type of movement could be a lot to take in from opponents that aren't expecting it!

THanks for the info I'll follow up.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, alanschu14 said:

I didn't see but as the football newb in general... what IS Total Football?

Total Football is all about the space on the field, not the initial formation itself. Players cover the space on the pitch for each other. If the wingback push up, so another player needs to cover it. Those position swaps with the brilliance from Cruyff made Ajax and the Dutch team unstoppable. 

It evolved under Cruyff as a coach and after that with Rijkaard and of course Pep Guardiola. Look at his City side now. Silva, De Bruyne even covers defensive space when attackers push up, instead of keeping there attacking midfielder role on the field. 

[Gegenklaus]

4 hours ago, Rooks said:

Total Football is all about the space on the field, not the initial formation itself. Players cover the space on the pitch for each other. If the wingback push up, so another player needs to cover it. Those position swaps with the brilliance from Cruyff made Ajax and the Dutch team unstoppable. 

It evolved under Cruyff as a coach and after that with Rijkaard and of course Pep Guardiola. Look at his City side now. Silva, De Bruyne even covers defensive space when attackers push up, instead of keeping there attacking midfielder role on the field. 

Spot on. That's the brilliance of those teams. Especially Guardiola and how his team shifts system during the game - de Bruyne going deeper, then acting as a winger, while Sterling/Sane/Walker covers that space and so on. What I like most about Pep's current City team is how disciplined they are. We saw it against Liverpool. Despite being down with three goals they stuck to the plan. It's beautiful.

[Joey Numbaz]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

What I like most about Pep's current City team is how disciplined they are. We saw it against Liverpool. Despite being down with three goals they stuck to the plan. It's beautiful.

In an FM perspective, do you think adding the Be More Disciplined shout would have the same effect?

[Gegenklaus]

10 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

In an FM perspective, do you think adding the Be More Disciplined shout would have the same effect?

No, I wouldn't add that.

[Curtinho]

This is a nice video: