Creating space (4231 narrow)

[Jommelb]

I've been playing FM for quite a long time now and I've read quite a lot of articles on this site. Which are great btw! I like messing around with tactics and try, change, try again, etc. But I always end up with the same kind of problem which I never seem to be able to fix. If I play a tactic with focus on possession I always end up with a lot of long shots and very few good quality chances. Very often it's crowded just outside the box and not much space to work with. I want to show two things I've tried and I'd like to get some advice on fixing this. But it's also possible that my expectations are too high, because in the articles on the forum the tactics seem perfect, which they are not of course. I assume with those tactics you don't get every single attack what you want to see and there are also moments that players don't move as you wish. 

I've tried to get the 4231 narrow working. And of course there is a big risk of overcrowding the area just outside the box of the AI. So the space I need has to be created. 

Idea behind the first tactic: (I'm playing mostly standard, flexible when I'm experimenting)

I want to control the game, have possession and have different ways of creating chances. Build up should be done through the DLP and the backs. They should link up with the AM(s) and the AP.

Ideas of creating chances:

1. through balls to the striker or SS (passes given by AP, AM(s) and possibly de DLP.

2. Crosses, mainly from the FB(a) on the left side, who will arrive later.

TI's: Play out of defence and play wider (to get the AP and SS in the channels) and get more space. 

With the AM dropping deeper and also the moving AP I hope to create space when defenders are following them. 

Sometimes it works and I get through balls, mostly when the AP gets the ball, gets pressured, finds the AM (or AF) who finds the SS or AF. But very often it just runs dead there because the area is overcrowded.

I've been playing with the striker role to let him create space, but then I have very few penetration into the box.

 

 

An other thing I've tried:

Moving them all back to create space. In this set-up I'm struggling to get the ball forward and the CM(a) don't really get into the box so often. Sometimes they make a run, when they can't get the ball and when they're moving back they get the ball, which is not the idea of course. I would like to have my striker be the main goalscorer, because I've never been able to have striker with a lot of goals in a system with only one striker. But that should be possible...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you can give some tips and spot 'mistakes' in the tactics I've tried. Or give more general tips about creating space.

[Smx]

Excuseme for my english.

First issues that im see its dlp and anchorman combo.

 

dlp needs the space in the deep. its static role in vertical move, but dynamic in frontal/horizantal move. with anchorman combo dlp dont space for horizantal move as anchorman sit deep and stay in same zone that and dlp

[Smx]

If you needs in the deep playmaker in central zone, that im advice using the advanced playmaker on support duty between others AMC.

SS needs space that move into channels. But Advanced Forward dont create space and dont out put defenders without positions. AF moves witn ball directly trough opposition defensive line. DLF as good alternative because he holding the ball, that can take SS move in the forward.

[Smx]

Even. AM/Support dont break the opposition defensive line because he sit in the hole into deep on the feeld. He rarely moves on the opposition defensive line and rarely  settle between opposition defensive line and defensive midfielders. His position before opposition mifield. As result he may double APL, because he sit in the deep as and APL

[Jommelb]

13 hours ago, Smx said:

Excuseme for my english.

First issues that im see its dlp and anchorman combo.

 

dlp needs the space in the deep. its static role in vertical move, but dynamic in frontal/horizantal move. with anchorman combo dlp dont space for horizantal move as anchorman sit deep and stay in same zone that and dlp

No problem, English isn't my mother tongue either ;). I understand what you say about this combo, but I have to say it isn't working that bad. Most of the time we're able to get the ball out of defence to the midfield. And the DLP is actually supporting quite well and is now and then on the edge of the opponents box.

13 hours ago, Smx said:

If you needs in the deep playmaker in central zone, that im advice using the advanced playmaker on support duty between others AMC.

SS needs space that move into channels. But Advanced Forward dont create space and dont out put defenders without positions. AF moves witn ball directly trough opposition defensive line. DLF as good alternative because he holding the ball, that can take SS move in the forward.

I've tried that, but also without succes. I've tried to play with an AP in the centre and two SS with a DLF up top. But it rarely happens that the DLF drops deep and that the SS use that space. And the DLF has the PI move into channels so wouldn't he be in the same space as the SS?
I chose the AF because he is pushing up and forcing the CB's to move back, that would mean more space for the AM's. 

13 hours ago, Smx said:

Even. AM/Support dont break the opposition defensive line because he sit in the hole into deep on the feeld. He rarely moves on the opposition defensive line and rarely  settle between opposition defensive line and defensive midfielders. His position before opposition mifield. As result he may double APL, because he sit in the deep as and APL

I understand, I don't expect him to do that. The reason I chose this is that in this way, when we build up over the left flank and the AP gets the ball, we can move the ball from the AP to the AM, and sometimes defenders are going to press one of these players. Then there is space for the SS and AF to move in. But it doesn't happen very often.

 

[LPQR]

16 hours ago, Jommelb said:

I've been playing with the striker role to let him create space, but then I have very few penetration into the box.

 

This is an issue that is very much a double-edged sword:

From one point of view, it seems logical that a forward holding up the ball for on-running players from deep should create more penetration in the box, however one issue that is often overlooked which affects the dynamics of that particular element of play relates to directness and tempo:

So for example, if your style of play is to move the ball from one end to the other with urgency and little delay, the final player becomes the edge of the spearhead in this case. In other words, if the most advanced player in a style that favors directness is instructed to hold up the ball for players that are a little bit deeper than he is, that plays against the whole principle of the system and disrupts the flow of the attacking moves. 

In a possession based system, you want your striker (assuming you only have one striker role) to get involved in the passing game as much as possible but to also retain the potency up-front. There are a number of roles that allow you to do that, but yet again, I find the two issues mentioned above hugely relevant here. 

Also, look at how your striker plays - what ppms does he have? Does he run wide with the ball, does he try first time shots? This will be hugely important for what is basically your main danger-man and you should articulate the coordination of that role with the other players around him.

Lastly, I would pay specific attention to how close the players are to each other and what are the factors that facilitate inter-positional change and what are the factors that stop it from flowing. In other words, penetration will be poor if players are too far from each other to interact meaningfully, if the system does not allow a certain freedom of movement to either specific players or on a general scale and if the functions of the chosen roles do not complement each other. 

 

Hope this helps

[Jommelb]

Thanks for your response. Good point about the different styles of play. If the striker holds up the ball the tempo will decrease, but it could still work if he doesn't need to hold it up too long. 

I want to focus on a more possession style of play. I think it's good to get my striker involved in the passing, but with three players present in the AM position is it really necessary? I've been trying DLF (a or s) and CS (a or s). Last two matches I tried a trequarista in combination with 2 SS and AM(s), but that was no success!! 

6 hours ago, LPQR said:

Also, look at how your striker plays - what ppms does he have? Does he run wide with the ball, does he try first time shots? This will be hugely important for what is basically your main danger-man and you should articulate the coordination of that role with the other players around him.

Thanks for this tip, missed the ppms of the striker which were run down right wing and play easy passes. Last one isn't too bad. 

6 hours ago, LPQR said:

Lastly, I would pay specific attention to how close the players are to each other and what are the factors that facilitate inter-positional change and what are the factors that stop it from flowing. In other words, penetration will be poor if players are too far from each other to interact meaningfully, if the system does not allow a certain freedom of movement to either specific players or on a general scale and if the functions of the chosen roles do not complement each other. 

Yes, I believe that's the key, but I'm getting very frustrated that I can't get it right. I watch a lot of full matches, but I just don't see it. It seems to be a different problem every attack. But most of the time they're pretty close to each other, especially the three AM's and the striker. 

And yes complementing the roles, I understand, but that's the problem. I can't get it right. In my head it isn't hard. I can think that a DLF(s) could be combined with 1 or 2 SS, but to get it actually working is another problem. The SS often get the ball at the moment when they are moving back from te box to the AM space. But that should be the other way around. I want them to get the ball when they move into te box.