FM vs RL

[MBarbaric]

51 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

If we had complete freedom to design our own roles, that could give us an unfair advantage over the AI managers as they are simply not capable of designing equivalent roles themselves.  ok, that in itself is an issue but until such time as the AI does have a similar capability we'd be stacking the deck in our favour if we had such free reign. 

1

@herne79 , the issue is there. We already have an unfair advantage over the AI. You have spent half a page to precisely describe how to trick the AI (and the ME) in order to defend deep with strikers. You say yourself it is cumbersome and an issue. 

The AI doesn't have a similar ability precisely because the defensive and offensive shape are tied in one role. As you have described, we can mitigate that to an extent, but AI can't. It will when SI introduces the defensive and offensive shapes/roles. Once defensive and offensive shapes are separated, and SI ties that into the ME properly, we can start talking about introducing pressing, transitions, off the ball movement. But to get there, basic positioning on the pitch needs to be revisited and that mantra "a player can't play two positions at the same time" ditched forever together with the first person who said it out loud.

 

I understand you want to help people to (at least partially) resolve their problems. But that only produces debate. People want the thing to work as it does IRL, not various explanations and half solutions. Everyone knows there's something wrong with flank play. Why does that winger run past the marker and then slows down allowing himself to be caught? That happens way too often in the ME and trying to explain it just breeds unnecessary debate. That is plain wrong behaviour and has been in the game for ages. What is wrong and in plain sight has to be declared for what it is first. Then we can debate how to mitigate it, jump around it, exploit it, whatever. 

[RBKalle]

1 ora fa, tacticsdude ha scritto:

So a bunch of sliders from 1 to 5 (or so) could accurately represent reasonable verbal team instructions. 

We still/already have them in some areas of the TC

The unclear part IMO is how much those fewer options with 4 or 5 choices (or with More/Less modifiers) are basically a "front" for the old sliders. So, if "Be more expressive" is a whole new instruction or is a more user-friendly interface to the infamous "Creative Freedom: 3 click to the right" setting we used to tinker with in the old days.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, tacticsdude said:

Yeah. I didn't want to derail, but Benzema is one of the hardest working strikers in the game. And the way Madrid plays puts him often in an uncomfortable position as a target/playmaker holding him back and preventing him from getting into the box before Ronaldo and Bale blast in there for the finish. Then everyone looks as his goal totals and think he is lagging in goals for a world-class striker, meanwhile the guy works harder than most and finishes a very high percentage of his actual chances.

Decent assessment, he doesn't have near the opportunity as a Ronaldo, even purely looking at raw shot attempts (throughout his career he's had less than 3 "shots" per game). Typically based on what he has, this suggests he's finishing indeed at least decent, typically. This term, he's the combined worst finisher with Ronaldo in La Liga interestingly, above all the other issues they have heavily contributing to Real's underperformance in the tables. They both trail behind what they are "expected" to score by 5 (Benzema) and 8 (Ronaldo) goals respectively. Whilst that's not be treated as gospel, hope the game will one day try to ape feedback like that, no less as it could be based directly on calculations made by the game. Plus it could better show a bit where chance may be influencing both positive as well as negative streaks. In-game, some may be tempted to ship Benzema off to Qatar immediately. Whilst imo the game isn't necessarily that "random", in football anyway, reasonably slumps like that seem quite common place. Season's not over yet too...

[tacticsdude]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

In-game, some may be tempted to ship Benzema off to Qatar immediately.

Yeap. IRL too. I was watching a debate on US TV when they played Spurs. They were going on about Benzema vs Kane, and that Kane is more prolific = the better striker. But if you drop Kane in the same spot with the same team and player tactics he'll likely get the same results as Benzema (few shots per game, not 'enough' goals per season).

And Madrid is still scoring goals, which suggests Zidane's tactics are encouraging other players to find the net, which also lowers the goal count of the forwards. I have that issue in FM as well, that my STs tend to score fewer than expected and get bad match ratings. But as a manager I know I'm contributing to that by promoting a style of play that forces STs to pass the ball and create chances for the midfield and wingers.

I think in RM's case Zidane is a part of the equation as he is still writing the chapters of his tactics book. I think that needs to be accounted when you look at player slumps. Regardless, it is interesting to see what happens next. With a team like RM anyone could be shipped off, including Zidane and an aging Ronaldo.

[Svenc]

18 minutes ago, tacticsdude said:

Yeap. IRL too. I was watching a debate on US TV when they played Spurs. They were going on about Benzema vs Kane, and that Kane is more prolific = the better striker. But if you drop Kane in the same spot with the same team and player tactics he'll likely get the same results as Benzema (few shots per game, not 'enough' goals per season).

That's oft typical of how football is viewed / presented on television, at least at its most simplistic. It goes back to the belief that a if a forward isn't scoring, he can't be any much good or at all contributing. This is also an absolutely daft comparison to make. At Tottenham, Kane is the centre piece of the universe. The majority of moves and finishes fall all to his, he has over 6 attempts per match just this term -- something only Ronaldo pulls off in European top football, who has like a third of all attempts Real has anyhow. If Kane wouldn't score more, that would be very much troublesome. That's such simple bits of context ignored. Forwards probably are the most easily misjudged that way, in particular as goals are naturally heavily rated in general.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, tacticsdude said:

So you are arguing with me about the meaning of poacher IRL, not just FM's view on it.

Nope.  I'm stating that FM's Poacher role is based on the traditional real life Poacher which is a dying breed (if not extinct) in the modern game.  The modern Poacher to which you refer isn't a traditional Poacher and is therefore nothing to do with FM's current Poacher role.  A Complete Forward or Defensive Forward is probably nearer the mark for what you are referring to (ie., the "modern" Poacher), albeit with some limitations attached to the current ME - such as dropping deeper when defending and so on.  There's your issue, which I'm not arguing about at all - you just seem confused about what a Poacher is in FM and the real life (albeit largely historic) role it's based on.

But, again, "labels" .

@MBarbaric I know and understand.  As you're aware, we already have so many advantages over the AI that adding to them doesn't exactly get to the heart of the matter.  Helping someone understand that in game labels are just guides and not rules that must be followed has been my sole point in all of this discussion - which yeh does of course give us another advantage albeit in a somewhat clumsy way.  I guess the line gets drawn somewhere due to current AI capabilities and that line is currently at giving us free reign over complete role customisation.  But if we had that it leads us to the old super tactics.  Personally I'd love additional customisation but not until the AI can give (almost ) as good as it gets.  And as we both agree, therein lies the issue.

[forameuss]

You mean sometimes football on television has a narrative that means they often have a less than accurate representation of what's actually happening?

[Svenc]

3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

You mean sometimes football on television has a narrative that means they often have a less than accurate representation of what's actually happening?

 

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Aside of Fifa and generally match highlight reels, television broadcasts have been the single worst influence on people's perception of football ever since as far as I'm concerned. [Those guys are still doing a totally professional job, mind. Which is selling an ever more expensive product of prime time entertainment to an audience of millions yearning for entertainment and live television drama].