Dynamic league structures

[John_Yuki]

It'd be great if league structures could change from time to time like they do in real life, especially lower leagues. There was recently the Scottish league structure update in real life, and the Conference has changed a couple times over the last few decades, as well as the big Football League change. It would be nice to see the game simulate these league changes, where league structure get modified slightly from time to time, and sometimes even get complete overhauls, which would be extremely rare.

[Borussia Teeth]

On 26/01/2018 at 22:59, John_Yuki said:

It'd be great if league structures could change from time to time like they do in real life, especially lower leagues. There was recently the Scottish league structure update in real life, and the Conference has changed a couple times over the last few decades, as well as the big Football League change. It would be nice to see the game simulate these league changes, where league structure get modified slightly from time to time, and sometimes even get complete overhauls, which would be extremely rare.

I reckon most people doing long-term saves would find this frustrating, probably won’t happen

[John_Yuki]

1 hour ago, Borussia Teeth said:

I reckon most people doing long-term saves would find this frustrating, probably won’t happen

Well then it can just be an option you can turn off/on when setting up the game. Features don't have to be forced on players.

[roykela]

I'm not most people. That's for sure; but i always play long-term saves and would absolutely love
it if this would happen.
Would be a breath of fresh air for me as it would add an extra dimension

[tiago_wakabayashi]

I would love this in the game 

[Maaka]

Just looking at the top leagues in Europe, Serie A has had several changes regarding the number of teams, 16 up until 1988, 18 from 1988 to 2004, and 20 from 2004 on. The Bundesliga has had 18 for most of it's existence (except 20 for one season due to the unification of Germany), while the spanish La Liga had 16 until 1971, 18 from 1971 to 1987, 20 from 1987 to 1995, then 22 from 1995-1997 and 20 again since 1997. The English Premier League started off with 22 teams back in 1992, but has been playing with 20 since 1995. French Ligue 1 went from 18 to 20 in 2002, in Scotland they went from 10 to 12 teams in 2000 (and having 12 since means the longest ever period in Scotland without a structural change).
All of Scandinavia has seen changes in the numbers of teams contesting the top leagues in recent years, likewise changes in the promotion/relegation systems.

So, from one point of view, it would make a lot of sense to implement this into the game.

I suppose the main argument against it, is how to actually get it into the game. How much coding would be needed, how would they do it, how much effort is required from SI and so on.
Another point (a very valid one) is those leagues where SI actually has a license deal in place, those deals probably puts a restraint on how SI can "tamper" with those leagues.

But it would most definately add to the depth of the game.

[tiago_wakabayashi]

If I tell you about the Brasileirão changes, It would became a bible lol. Names, organization changes, club numbers, joining of divisions and separations, format changes (the current league points format was adopted in 2003, when the league had more than current 20 clubs in Serie A, before that was a league format but with playoffs, thing that only the Brazilian Cup, other regional cups and State Championships offer currently. We didn't have the Serie D, our Serie B is very weak and the C was worst. Now, from A to D are 20 clubs, in Serie C there is no double round system but region groups where the best are qualifed to playoffs. In Serie D, the teams came from the Serie C relegated, the best brazilian ranked, State Cup champions and other methods, forming 68 teams, divided in groups with the teams from the same regions like Serie C, with the best advancing to the playoffs.

[Guest]

On 28/01/2018 at 13:41, Borussia Teeth said:

I reckon most people doing long-term saves would find this frustrating, probably won’t happen

As someone who plays 40+ season career saves i’d like this to be an approved feature.

[SpurrBeeversWoodBuxton]

Licensing would probably keep this feature out of the game as a default but an option to set up alternative systems in the editor and give them a percentage chance of being adopted over a given period would make some sense to me. It could include things other than format changes too, such as adding or removing b-teams, changes to transfer rules, league expansion (thinking about the MLS, for example), Old Firm teams joining the English leagues etc.

[steff13]

It might be an interesting idea, considering dynamic reputation. For example, you're playing in small country, where High League contains of 6 teams. But, due the continental competitions winning, there're much money, higher reputation and, finally, then this country must have stronger (and, surely, bigger) High League. Because it's quite boring to win all domestic competitions dozen of years and play with the same 5 teams (ok, most of time 4, 1 is swapping) 4 and more times each season.

[Guest]

On 06/02/2018 at 08:57, SpurrBeeversWoodBuxton said:

Licensing would probably keep this feature out of the game as a default but an option to set up alternative systems in the editor and give them a percentage chance of being adopted over a given period would make some sense to me. It could include things other than format changes too, such as adding or removing b-teams, changes to transfer rules, league expansion (thinking about the MLS, for example), Old Firm teams joining the English leagues etc.

Licensing doesn’t need to be a problem, there just needs to be an agreement that a licensed competition cannot have a restructure for a set number of years, maybe linked to the point at which all players in game are newgen’s.

[John_Yuki]

On 1/30/2018 at 12:29, Maaka said:

I suppose the main argument against it, is how to actually get it into the game. How much coding would be needed, how would they do it, how much effort is required from SI and so on.

Another point (a very valid one) is those leagues where SI actually has a license deal in place, those deals probably puts a restraint on how SI can "tamper" with those leagues.

No offence, but that isn't really a great argument to make. If the idea is a solid one and could greatly increase the realism of the game, as well as make the game more interesting for players, then if SI genuinely cares about improving the game and not just about pushing a game out each year to make money, it is something they will put the effort in to making.

[SpurrBeeversWoodBuxton]

1 hour ago, John_Yuki said:

No offence, but that isn't really a great argument to make. If the idea is a solid one and could greatly increase the realism of the game, as well as make the game more interesting for players, then if SI genuinely cares about improving the game and not just about pushing a game out each year to make money, it is something they will put the effort in to making.

Obviously, but there's a ceiling to how much time/effort they can spend on any one feature. Would the proposed feature hit that ceiling? I don't know. But that doesn't mean that saying the time/effort required is a factor "isn't a great argument."

[Brogar_kdv]

It would be a really nice feature for me, but I think its way too difficult to implement.

Most of the time I play with a club from a smaller country and as the country improves its coefficient and sends 4, 5 or 6 Teams into the UEFA Competitions it would be nice if the League Size could increase from 8/10/12 to 16 or 18. Or for example merge 2 subdivision to a single League.

But FMs League System is just too complex for this I think. For this SI would have to implement a completely new structure (although it would make editing less difficult) and I dont think thats gonna happen. So maybe a feature for transition from one into another League System, which are predefined (or user generated), could help.

Like if the new First Division has 16 Teams, then the top 16 Teams of the country qualify for this League and so one. Therefore they could use a multiple Year Placement average or something. Problem here will definitely be the Cup competitions.

All in all i would like more "Longterm Dynamic".

[Bigpapa42]

I love this idea. A simple option to disable it would keep leagues static for those who prefer it, and it would make each save unique as leagues evolve a bit over time. I suggested something a while back that was similar, but focused purely on rules (foreign player restrictions and such) rather than the actual structure of the league.

Its unrealistic that leagues (and league rules) are static after a season or two. League changes that have been ratified by game release are include but after that.... things don't change. And that's not actually realistic, especially as some leagues change quite a bit (look in your direction, Argentina).

There might more efficient ways to implement it, but my thought would be have a list of possible league changes in the DB for league structure and rules. Those changes all already exist in the database, really, because all the possible rules already exist. Then each league gets a small addition - which direction they are likely to evolve in (more conservative, money-driven, protective of big clubs) and how drastic they are likely to be in terms of changes.

I know comparing across games is really hard, but I really liked how Motorsports Manager could evolve the league rules. That game made it into a bit of a sub-game as you could vote on the changes, or abstain to save your vote for something later.

[tiago_wakabayashi]

1 hour ago, Bigpapa42 said:

I know comparing across games is really hard, but I really liked how Motorsports Manager could evolve the league rules. That game made it into a bit of a sub-game as you could vote on the changes, or abstain to save your vote for something later.

In this case, based on F1/FIA, every year has changes. In football is a bit more static but should be voted some changes of rules after some seasons if the current format is not that good. 

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.