Cal585 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I've been playing with Blackburn and the way my squad is built lends itself to a 5-3-2 (good CBs, good strikers, poor wingers and lots of mids). But for some reason I just can't get it working. I've tried lots of varieties; CWBs or normal WBs, 5-3-2 (flat) or 5-1-2-2 (DM) or 5-2-1-2 (AM). I've changed TIs though tended to try and keep it simple. I've had one or two good results but in general I've been pretty poor. Conceding to unmarked strikers in my box (3 defenders all running under the ball to the same spot) and struggling to create much at the other end. Now I will point out that I am in the Championship and my team is expected to finish a bit above the relegation zone, so it's not the best squad in the league and I don't have crazy expectations (though I would like to equal my media prediction). I did think maybe my wingbacks just weren't good enough but the crazy thing is that when I've switched to a 4-1-3-2, they've been good (the ones in the picture are backups). So for some reason I can play 4 at the back fine but struggle with 5. I feel like there must be something fundamental I'm missing in switching between the two. I've moved back to the 4-1-3-2 and started getting some wins again (maybe the Carrileros are mitigating the WBs) but I don't want to give up on it completely. I'm really curious about where I'm going wrong and wondering if someone can shed some light? Are my wingbacks just not good enough? Do I need a better team (relatively) to play the formation? Do I need stronger TIs (press high and push everyone up together)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingjericho Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Why do you have the TI 'look for overlap'? Who is supposed to overlap who? You only have the WB as wide players so try not to limit their movements. I think your tactic is pretty balanced though. Possibly it's more a question of adapting your mentality based on the opponent. Counter + Close Down More + Pugh Higher Up can be a bit counterproducing, especially because you want to press high up the pitch with just 2 players in advanced positions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 49 minutes ago, kingjericho said: Why do you have the TI 'look for overlap'? Who is supposed to overlap who? You only have the WB as wide players so try not to limit their movements. I think your tactic is pretty balanced though. Possibly it's more a question of adapting your mentality based on the opponent. Counter + Close Down More + Pugh Higher Up can be a bit counterproducing, especially because you want to press high up the pitch with just 2 players in advanced positions. I've tended to go with look for overlap on formations without wingers as I believe it encourages the wingbacks to get forward in support and the mids to consider playing out wide to them rather than forcing the ball through the middle. At least this is what I've seen on other narrow tactics people have made though I could be completely wrong on this. As for mentality, I agree that this combination was probably not ideal. I had switched to counter because I kept losing and wanted to be more careful with the ball while push higher up was to bring the team closer together. But I had been playing on Standard and Fluid before without any luck, either with a flat 3 mid or 2 CM and an AM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingjericho Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Let me point you to some threads that also talk about 3-5-2, and a last one (possibly the best thread ever in the T&T forum) about high pressing with a counter mentality. http://www.thehighertempopress.com/2017/12/fm18-formation-guide-3-5-2/ https://community.sigames.com/topic/400004-grassroots-tactics-simplicity/ https://community.sigames.com/topic/219564-the-barcelona-style-my-interpretation/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrenwwr Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 you should not even need a DMC. thats a wasted guy on the field to me. add another ST, and witness the magnificence or 3 striker formations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
herne79 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 38 minutes ago, Warrenwwr said: you should not even need a DMC. thats a wasted guy on the field to me. add another ST, and witness the magnificence or 3 striker formations Rather than this and other recent flippant posts, please keep things constructive that may actually help people with what they are trying to achieve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 So I haven't tried this again yet but I have been thinking about it and the main problem I've had is defending crosses. I expected that a 4v2 in the penalty box with good aerial defenders should allow me to win most headers comfortably but too often I find the defenders bunching and getting dragged away from a player. The DM was to help keep the odds in my favour and stop a late run unchecked into the box but seems redundant if they can't even win the ball in the first place. I can only assume this is just a ME thing. So my only option then is to try and stop the crosses in the first place. Which is why I went with the slightly higher line and closing down (and previously fluid). Maybe I should set the wingbacks more defensive? But then I struggle with any width and isolate my strikers further (unless I change DM to AM but even so). I can only think that because of my low ranking in the league that teams push too high against me and I'm just not able to cope. Would welcome any further insight into why I'm messing it up though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
juusal Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 6 hours ago, Cal585 said: So I haven't tried this again yet but I have been thinking about it and the main problem I've had is defending crosses. I expected that a 4v2 in the penalty box with good aerial defenders should allow me to win most headers comfortably but too often I find the defenders bunching and getting dragged away from a player. The DM was to help keep the odds in my favour and stop a late run unchecked into the box but seems redundant if they can't even win the ball in the first place. I can only assume this is just a ME thing. So my only option then is to try and stop the crosses in the first place. Which is why I went with the slightly higher line and closing down (and previously fluid). Maybe I should set the wingbacks more defensive? But then I struggle with any width and isolate my strikers further (unless I change DM to AM but even so). I can only think that because of my low ranking in the league that teams push too high against me and I'm just not able to cope. Would welcome any further insight into why I'm messing it up though The crosses in the game tend to be a bit imbalanced in my opinion. SI argue that most goals in football come from delivery from wide areas, and for some reason their interpretation of this seems to be "floated crosses from the sideline into the back post inside the 6 yard box that keeper does not come to claim for whatever reason". It has improved significantly from previous versions though (FM16 was the worst) so I'm not complaining too much =) Anyway, pushing up the defensive line often helps for me as that gives less space for the wingers to pick up the all and run at your defence. I would also look at the situations where those crosses are put in. Are they from 2v1 situations that the AI creates against your wingback? Is your wingback out of position? Depending on the issue there can be a few fixes. FIrst, check the attributes of your defenders. Are your center backs good in the air? They need to have good positioning, anticipation, jumping and heading if you want them to be able to deal with a lot of crosses. For your wingbacks, look at anticipation and positioning as it helps them to cut out passes to their wingers, acceleration and pace to keep up with them, and bravery and tackling to make sure they are willing to put in a tackle and win the ball. Then I would play around with the closing down setting of your wingbacks. Higher closing down makes them reduce the space but it has its drawbacks. If you see your defender rushing in and getting skinned, probably reducing closing down is beneficial. Also what I often see when I only play with a single wide player is that the wingback starts closing down their fullback, leaving the winger wide open and a simple 2v1 situation opens up your whole defence. That's why I nowadays set my lone wingbacks/fullbacks to close down less or much less so they don't venture off from an already weak area in your shape. Instead, they stay in their position, closing down the winger when needed, and not rushing out and leaving space in behind. If you combine this with a central/defensive midfielder on that side with higher closing down, then the wingback slows down their attack, not allowing a quick transition in behind, and allows time for the midfielder to come and support. Whether you want are prepared to slightly weaken your center by allowing this is your decision but worth evaluating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 I've reverted back to the 5-3-2 and played a few more games (I'm on Touch so no Tactical Familiarity). Have generally been failing miserably on this save regardless of formation so maybe it's just my squad/ability. Finally won a game with some long balls and more aggressive play. @juusal - Centre backs should be good in the air with decent stats. I have taken your advice though to reduce closing down on wingbacks because I am seeing them skinned every game and might consider increasing closing down of outside CBs. The problem I'm having is that I always concede goals from crosses that go to an unmarked striker in the box while my 3 CBs stand off and watch, only attempting to pressure once he gets the ball. It's like they're all arguing about whose man he is. Surely if a wide player is making a run down the wing, someone should make sure the striker isn't by himself in the box... I've selected Tighter Marking but I haven't seen enough yet to know if it helps or not. Currently using a flat 3 midfield (CM-D, CM-A and BBM) behind a P and DLF-S. Changed to Poacher to try and simplify it down to pace and finishing which I'm good at. But he's struggling to get shots away inside the box so I may change him back. The DLF (Wickham and Smith) have been my best strikers due to their aerial prowess which seems to create most of my goals. Control, Fluid, Look for Overlap, Play out of Defence, Higher Tempo and Close Down More. PIs of Close Down Less on WBs and more Direct Passing on CBs. Idea being to try and get the ball forward quickly to take advantage of other teams attacking me. I tried Retain Possession and a more patient buildup but struggled to get near the opposition's goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsr1982 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Think you can afford to be a bit more aggressive here. Think about modern full backs in a flat back four. Where are they when the play advances? They're like wingers. To get your full backs to do that in FM, they need to have an attack duty. I think you can also push the DM into the AM slot. Remember that you have three players back at all times - you're pretty well covered defensively no matter what. Your WBs will drop in to form a back five, more or less, when you lose the ball. Also think about what formation you're facing. If the opposition play one up front, do you really need three CBs? I tend to push a CB into the DM position in that instance and play with a diamond. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 5 hours ago, ajsr1982 said: Think you can afford to be a bit more aggressive here. Think about modern full backs in a flat back four. Where are they when the play advances? They're like wingers. To get your full backs to do that in FM, they need to have an attack duty. I think you can also push the DM into the AM slot. Remember that you have three players back at all times - you're pretty well covered defensively no matter what. Your WBs will drop in to form a back five, more or less, when you lose the ball. Also think about what formation you're facing. If the opposition play one up front, do you really need three CBs? I tend to push a CB into the DM position in that instance and play with a diamond. I've got 1 set to Attack but I'll go back to having the other attacking as well. As for the DM, he's a standard CM now, though I'm not sure whether I should be playing a flat 3 or using an AM? With a flat 3 I'm more likely to control the midfield which I feel compelled to as a weak team. But using an AM might help me fashion some better chances and give my strikers some better service. I've lost too many games by a goal where I just haven't been able to create many good chances. As for the Diamond, that's something I've been considering, particularly against a 4-2-3-1. Thinking a HB role might work nicely in keeping with the team style and I've never used one before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsr1982 Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 It's the first time I've had much success with three at the back, so I'm just passing it on. What works for me may not work for you, but here's what I'm playing: GK/D DC/D DC/D DCB/D CWB/A WB/S CM/S CM/S AM/S T/A AF/A Standard/Flexible TIs: Hit Early Crosses My two CFs are a cut above the rest of the team. Not at a high level at all though as a team. Comparable to League Two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Cal585 said: Thinking a HB role might work nicely in keeping with the team style and I've never used one before. Quick update but the HB role was terrible. Defenders split wide but the HB stayed higher which just left a pocket of space for their lone striker to sit in behind. Planning to go with an AM and swap to the diamond against single strikers. Can't be worse than what I've been doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Have you checked out my threads on the 3-5-2? I did probably the most in depth two threads on that formation than anyone has ever done. And https://teaandbusquets.com/3-5-2-chronicles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 @Cleon - Yeah I did. First one particularly inspired me to try the formation. I didn't think my squad suited pressing so well and doesn't have a good DLP option so I wanted to try something a bit more suited to my players. I admit I've probably overcomplicated things and tried to change too much at once in the hope of finding something that works. I will reread your thread to see what jumps out at me again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 58 minutes ago, Cal585 said: @Cleon - Yeah I did. First one particularly inspired me to try the formation. I didn't think my squad suited pressing so well and doesn't have a good DLP option so I wanted to try something a bit more suited to my players. I admit I've probably overcomplicated things and tried to change too much at once in the hope of finding something that works. I will reread your thread to see what jumps out at me again. My players in the second thread aren't good either as I started 9 tiers down. Your players can't be any worse. It's worth remembering that your vision is the end goal and not the starting point. By this I mean, you work towards your ideas and perfecting them over time. It's very rare (as in non existent for most) that you can play the way you want at the start of a save. Many people get frustrated because the ideas they have don't work straight away. But that's the whole point, it's what you work towards and not how you start off. The second thread highlights how I was attempting to do this. It should be more than enough to give you food for thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loisvale Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 On 14/03/2018 at 08:00, Cleon said: Have you checked out my threads on the 3-5-2? I did probably the most in depth two threads on that formation than anyone has ever done. And https://teaandbusquets.com/3-5-2-chronicles Appreciate you are a busy boy cleon but are you still intending to finish all these articles on the 352 referenced in the above post. Would love to read them as really like the formation. Hope so but understand it is a great deal of work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 The Kingstonian diaries heads into a new direction for Season 5 where we take on 5 man defences. We show different kinds as these are some of my favourite in the game at the moment. So far I've already done the 5212, we have done the 523 and we are currently playing the 5221. I do think these are defensively very solid, the only thing you need to focus on is finding the right players for them. We don't always pull off what we want, but I can see from the movement its only the right kind of players we lack. I haven't done a thumbnail yet for these series of tactics but here's a short intro https://youtu.be/QbKki8XCyh4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal585 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 I rejigged the tactic a bit. Ended up playing: GK/D CB/D CB/D CB/D WB/A WB/A BBM/S DLP/S CM/A DLF/S AF/A Team Instructions: Close Down Much More, Higher Defensive Line. Standard/Flexible Player Instructions: GK - distribute to CB, WBs - close down less Seemed to help a bit, though my morale was already shot. Main changes were having 2 Support mids and an Attack, along with removing Look for Overlap. Still seeing incredibly frustrating defending where I have 3 or 4 defenders running in a bunch together (seemed less of a problem once I increased closing down ironically) which led to teams still getting easy goals against me from unmarked crosses. Then had a couple of CBs injured, changed to a diamond and got relegated and sacked (for the first time) so I've given up for now. Might try a new save in a few days just analysing the tactic and not worrying about players or results or anything until I can find where it's going wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, loisvale said: Appreciate you are a busy boy cleon but are you still intending to finish all these articles on the 352 referenced in the above post. Would love to read them as really like the formation. Hope so but understand it is a great deal of work. Most of those articles are about player development rather than the 352. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loisvale Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 On 17/03/2018 at 13:51, Cleon said: Most of those articles are about player development rather than the 352. On 17/03/2018 at 13:51, Cleon said: Most of those articles are about player development rather than the 352. Are they available anywhere to read? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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