Youth Intake ineffective

[roger redknapp]

York City, Premier league, in Europe, Extensive Youth Recruitment, Exceptional Junior Coaching, Excellent Youth Facilities, Huw Jennings Resolute HOYD, Under 18 Manager, Assistant, 2 coaches, 2 Lower League Youth Intake Affiliates

Currently Spawning 1/2 to 1 1/2⭐️ ability max 
And Spawning 1/2 to 4 ⭐️ potential 

Reloading on intake day to test it. Should I not be yielding any ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ current ability?   Like surely the boxes I’ve ticked I should have a desirable intake after 15-20 reloads?

[WorcesterLegend]

Do people find an actually good "next messi/ronaldo" irl? 99% of the kids with good potential normally wont even do half of what a reserve player does, there are always exceptions to that but my guess would be that only one kid below 18 every 3 years has the ability to be rotation/reserve for premier league team its not about reloafing a set amount of times is something that is rare

[Vänsterback]

7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

York City, Premier league, in Europe, Extensive Youth Recruitment, Exceptional Junior Coaching, Excellent Youth Facilities, Huw Jennings Resolute HOYD, Under 18 Manager, Assistant, 2 coaches, 2 Lower League Youth Intake Affiliates

Currently Spawning 1/2 to 1 1/2⭐️ ability max 
And Spawning 1/2 to 4 ⭐️ potential 

Reloading on intake day to test it. Should I not be yielding any ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ current ability?   Like surely the boxes I’ve ticked I should have a desirable intake after 15-20 reloads?

So you expect an already decent Premier League player in the intake of 16-year olds?

For the billionth time, star ratings are just your staffs estimates and opinions regarding the players (compared to your best players and the league). They don't reveal the actual current or potential ability necessarily. You can't label your intake as "ineffective" just because it generates players with 1/2 to 4 star potential or players that are not already good enough for one of the best leagues in the world at 16 years of age.

[roger redknapp]

1 hour ago, WorcesterLegend said:

Do people find an actually good "next messi/ronaldo" irl? 99% of the kids with good potential normally wont even do half of what a reserve player does, there are always exceptions to that but my guess would be that only one kid below 18 every 3 years has the ability to be rotation/reserve for premier league team its not about reloafing a set amount of times is something that is rare

I understand the odds are low each and every time I reload the game and its the same odds for each time I reload. But at the end of the day it is a database and it is essentially spawning data under the environment I’ve laid out for it. I’ve put good time and investement in get the best possible return on that spawn. 

Im not asking for a Messi or Ronaldo, but what I am saying is that I have waited seasons to be in a position to afford to build the youth part of the club, employed a well regarded staff member for the role, and despite having desired elements for an intake, over 50 reloads I’m seeing myself land with complete dross and other teams land £3-4m 2-3* prospects.  We are talking 50,100 reloads and the same results, eventually the data shifts from random to handicapped chances. 

I think the entire youth system is convoluted, and doesn’t satisfy. Players who follow a set of guides at smaller clubs or any club with the aim to get an academy going should be rewarded with the ability to harvest sellable or retainable talent. 

 

[roger redknapp]

30 minutes ago, Vänsterback said:

So you expect an already decent Premier League player in the intake of 16-year olds?

For the billionth time, star ratings are just your staffs estimates and opinions regarding the players (compared to your best players and the league). They don't reveal the actual current or potential ability necessarily. You can't label your intake as "ineffective" just because it generates players with 1/2 to 4 star potential or players that are not already good enough for one of the best leagues in the world at 16 years of age.

I understand the * ratings are relative to quality of the first team squad. 

But I can compare my facilities and my HOYD to other teams, and watching on various reloads of the intake day what is happening at my club and what is happening at others, I’m seeing players spawning that would be a 3* quality at my club spawning at other clubs, and I’m getting dross.

The current youth development format is unrewarding, convoluted and completely random spawning. 

Even down to a staff members personality and preferred formation affecting an intake, it’s not really realistic. A paid member of staff should be learning and buying into YOUR teams philosophy not his own, and finding players based on that. Especially considering you know, you did rise from Vanrama North to challenging the Prem maybe your ideas are better than his? 

I think the entire thing needs a complete overhaul so you have more control over intake. They should have a pre intake database where regens pool in, that you can get to scouting for your intake or academy, rather than it being completely random spawning which is exactly what it is.

 

[herne79]

7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

Reloading on intake day to test it. Should I not be yielding any ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ current ability?

No, you shouldn't.

A 16 year old with 3 star CA would be of similar quality to your current senior squad players.  Assuming that your current senior squad is Premier League standard, it is completely unrealistic to expect 16 year old newgen players to be "born" with Premier League standard ability.

7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

And Spawning 1/2 to 4 ⭐️ potential 

That sounds just about perfect.

A 16 year old newgen player "born" into your Premier League with 4 star potential has the potential to become an extremely good Premier League player - if not world class.  Half star players are likely never to make it, so you getting a wide range of potential ability players is spot on.  Club and league reputation also come into play with the "best" newgens more likely to start at the highest rep clubs.

Even if you have the best youth set up in the world, with the best facilities and staff and the highest reputation, there is never any guarantee you'll get a fantastic youth intake.  All you do by improving your set up is to increase the likelihood of improving your intake.  You are getting good intakes, it's just that if you continue to expect 5 star PA players with 3 star CA every time intake day comes around you'll always be disappointed.

[roger redknapp]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No, you shouldn't.

A 16 year old with 3 star CA would be of similar quality to your current senior squad players.  Assuming that your current senior squad is Premier League standard, it is completely unrealistic to expect 16 year old newgen players to be "born" with Premier League standard ability.

That sounds just about perfect.

A 16 year old newgen player "born" into your Premier League with 4 star potential has the potential to become an extremely good Premier League player - if not world class.  Half star players are likely never to make it, so you getting a wide range of potential ability players is spot on.  Club and league reputation also come into play with the "best" newgens more likely to start at the highest rep clubs.

Even if you have the best youth set up in the world, with the best facilities and staff and the highest reputation, there is never any guarantee you'll get a fantastic youth intake.  All you do by improving your set up is to increase the likelihood of improving your intake.  You are getting good intakes, it's just that if you continue to expect 5 star PA players with 3 star CA every time intake day comes around you'll always be disappointed.

Cheers for the reply. 

Thing is I’m seeing players come through intakes elsewhere with a starting value of 500k-4m.  I’m getting 1* players with 4* potential and I know by looking at them that they are going to be relying on their college university degree by the time the time they are 21!

My teams quality is overachieving to be top 6, and if I was receiving newborn players as fairly as at other clubs they would certainly not be 1.5* at my club with my current first team PA. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

I’m getting 1* players with 4* potential and I know by looking at them that they are going to be relying on their college university degree by the time the time they are 21!

A 16 year old with 1 star CA and 4 star PA has the potential to be great for you - better than pretty much everyone else in your current first team.  All you have to do is develop him and by the time he's 21 he could be a first team regular, if not a key player.

1) Tutor him to improve his personality if needed.  Players with better professionalism, ambition and determination (which can be personality traits) train better.  Look for senior players (age 24+) with high attributes in those areas (your coach report will tell you) and/or senior players who have a personality such as Resolute, Highly Professional, Professional, Perfectionist, Spirited, Model Citizen to act as Tutors for the youngsters.

2) Before the age of 18 training takes precedence in player development, so set up a decent training program for him.  Take control, don't rely on your staff.

3) Match time is always relevant (more so after 18 years old) so make sure he's playing regularly in your youth teams.  If he's as good as you say that should happen by default.

4) Keep an eye on how he develops and change things if needed.  Of course he's not guaranteed to develop rapidly, but following the basic steps above will improve the chances of it happening.

[enigmatic]

The best academy in the country produces just over 1 player with the potential to play in the Premier League per season, none of whom have been Premier League standard aged 16/17 since Ryan Giggs, nearly three decades ago. Players who are Premier League standard at that age are absolute freaks.

FM skews in favour of youth development

[theonets]

9 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

Even down to a staff members personality and preferred formation affecting an intake, it’s not really realistic. A paid member of staff should be learning and buying into YOUR teams philosophy not his own, and finding players based on that. Especially considering you know, you did rise from Vanrama North to challenging the Prem maybe your ideas are better than his? 

 

Do you have the same member of staff from the Vanarama North?

 

If not, then said person has probably had success somewhere else with his style. 

 

Look at Big Sam at Everton. He's actively trolling the fans by sticking to what he's always done. Someone whose entire philosophy is the opposite of yours won't change for you, he really just can't. Hire the right member with the right tactics.

 

As for the rest, 4 star players for me in the PL would be good to leading players for the league. Hardly some poor potential. And very few 15/16 year olds are even Championship ready.

[roger redknapp]

7 minutes ago, theonets said:

Do you have the same member of staff from the Vanarama North?

 

If not, then said person has probably had success somewhere else with his style. 

 

Look at Big Sam at Everton. He's actively trolling the fans by sticking to what he's always done. Someone whose entire philosophy is the opposite of yours won't change for you, he really just can't. Hire the right member with the right tactics.

 

As for the rest, 4 star players for me in the PL would be good to leading players for the league. Hardly some poor potential. And very few 15/16 year olds are even Championship ready.

Of course I don’t have the same staff. 

Look at the end of the day it’s a database, people try to rationalise decisions and connect it to real life in defence of the game. The fact of the matter is that if a manager walked into a job, the staff have to do exactly what is asked of them to their best ability. 

If I play 442 diamond WB, and I’ve given you 365 to do your job before a youth intake, the bare minimum I expect is to not waste 3-5 of the 15 players you recommend to be crap wingers with no potential to be CAM, WB or ST.  - I don’t have the ability to have that conversation and it lets the game down.  

It would be nice if they scrapped the intake being a rigid annual spawning festivity, and the HOYD could pull new players and their parents in throughout the year to meet you and be persuaded to join the academy.

But even if the game proceeded with that, it would turn into a frustrating grind, In the same manner that when given the reigns to do so, the best DOF and HOYD make offers for absolutely trash players leaving you to reject 3-7 people every 4 days. 

It’s the same issue on FIFA, with hot prospects often having absolutely trash physical and mental stats, yet really interesting prospects spawning at other clubs.  The HOYD is not earning his money bringing me young 15 year old players with natural fitness 4, no pace, no determination who are borderline thick with absolutely no evidence in their stats that they should be playing football. 

[CFuller]

16 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

If I play 442 diamond WB, and I’ve given you 365 to do your job before a youth intake, the bare minimum I expect is to not waste 3-5 of the 15 players you recommend to be crap wingers with no potential to be CAM, WB or ST.  - I don’t have the ability to have that conversation and it lets the game down.  

I'm almost certain that the preferred formation of your Head of Youth Development has a bearing on the positions of the players in your youth intake. For example, a HoYD who favours a conventional 4-4-2 might bring wingers through. If you really don't want wingers, see if you can find another high-quality HoYD with a preferred formation that's more akin to yours.

I also think that you should move away from the idea that the youth intake is simply the best 15 players your HoYD can find and recruit, and that his/her entire season revolves around that process. Personally, I like to think of these youth intake players as having played for - and graduated from - the club's Under-16s team, which is overseen by the HoYD and the junior coaches. They are now waiting to find out whether you (or the HoYD) will promote them into the Under-18s or release them.

I'm no expert on how youth football academies work, so what I've just stated may or may not be right. It's my attempt at an explanation for why the entire youth intake comes in at once, instead of having players trickle through one at a time.

[roger redknapp]

13 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Personally, I like to think of these youth intake players as having played for - and graduated from - the club's Under-16s team, which is overseen by the HoYD and the junior coaches. They are now waiting to find out whether you (or the HoYD) will promote them into the Under-18s or release them.

This is what I mean, Im a fantatic of FM myself, but I find some people make up stories to justify the game.

 I reload the game the night before a Youth Intake because it’s so random and as an experience the HOYD is doing an awful job and I need to take a free lottery tickets approach to it.

One load yields a player named Jon Smith,  the next load yields no Jon Smith. So to suggest the HOYD is doing anything other being a bang average Santa clause on the eve of an intake is demonstrably false. There is no under 16s team, it’s all just a spawn.

There isn’t a better way to describe youth intake any other way than completely random spawning, whose odds for JP JA in your favour increases based on the youth environment you put in place.  

However the odds of spawning good players compared to other teams over the course or reloading 100 times is so slim that it puts the entire area of the game into redesign question, and makes you want the game to consciously reward those that make an effort in this department. 

The concept that a HOYD personality would influence the influx of personalities of 15 year old children who haven’t event matured into adults yet is ludicrous. It is a series of algorithms that don’t result in being either realistic or at least fun and rewarding.

[CFuller]

The game has to generate these youth players somehow. How would you go about it?

3 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

The concept that a HOYD personality would influence the influx of personalities of 15 year old children who haven’t event matured into adults yet is ludicrous. It is a series of algorithms that don’t result in being either realistic or at least fun and rewarding.

If a Head of Youth Development is 'Highly Professional', you'd think he or she would expect the players under their wing to have somewhat similar standards when it comes to their attitude. Not everyone who comes through the set-up would be like Michael Carrick at 15, but at the same time, the HoYD would be less likely to recommend 'slack' or 'spineless' players.

[roger redknapp]

24 minutes ago, CFuller said:

The game has to generate these youth players somehow. How would you go about it?

If a Head of Youth Development is 'Highly Professional', you'd think he or she would expect the players under their wing to have somewhat similar standards when it comes to their attitude. Not everyone who comes through the set-up would be like Michael Carrick at 15, but at the same time, the HoYD would be less likely to recommend 'slack' or 'spineless' players.

But at the end of the day, people are people, I don’t understand why a model citizen would bring in 15 better personalities than someone who is balanced.

By the same logic, employing homosexual teachers, you are going to bring more homosexuals into the adult work place. It isn’t how human behaviour works. In reality you have parents desperate to get opportunities for their children, you don’t have HOYD on some sort of third reich search for their own image of a perfect person.   

Edit: I didn’t spend millions for someone to proceed to bring absolute trash into the club. It’s like he is rounding up 15 complete strangers by the bus stop the night before Intake and winging his wages. 

[CFuller]

Would you define a 1* CA, 2.5* PA player as "absolute trash"? As others have said, that "absolute trash" could become a decent Premier League player, maybe even better. If you do feel that way, then it sounds like you need to have more reasonable expectations about your youth intake.

[roger redknapp]

16 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Would you define a 1* CA, 2.5* PA player as "absolute trash"? As others have said, that "absolute trash" could become a decent Premier League player, maybe even better. If you do feel that way, then it sounds like you need to have more reasonable expectations about your youth intake.

 

I’m comparing them to other intakes. Especially at teams with less facilities than mine; and supposed lesser HOYDs.

 

[Snorks]

But the star rating is that players ability/potential compared to the rest of your squad.

Getting a 15/16yr old with 1.5 CA and 4PA - you have a player who, with the right tutoring and training could develop into a player as good or better than most of your first-teamers by the time they are in their early 20s.

I would be quite happy with that at York City, a small, overachieving club that is competing with academies the like of Man U, Man C, Liverpool etc for the best youngsters.

I am currently in a save with AC Milan, and only looking at maybe two or three potential first-team regulars in the intake. The infamous 'wonderkid' is so rare it will take decades of in-game club development to raise your status in the game to one that gets the cream.

 

[theonets]

Every intake should still net you quite a lot of money. Loan the shittier ones out, they'll still be good Championship level players going for quite a lot of money in an year or two.

[theonets]

3 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

Of course I don’t have the same staff. 

Look at the end of the day it’s a database, people try to rationalise decisions and connect it to real life in defence of the game. The fact of the matter is that if a manager walked into a job, the staff have to do exactly what is asked of them to their best ability. 

If I play 442 diamond WB, and I’ve given you 365 to do your job before a youth intake, the bare minimum I expect is to not waste 3-5 of the 15 players you recommend to be crap wingers with no potential to be CAM, WB or ST.  - I don’t have the ability to have that conversation and it lets the game down.  

It would be nice if they scrapped the intake being a rigid annual spawning festivity, and the HOYD could pull new players and their parents in throughout the year to meet you and be persuaded to join the academy.

But even if the game proceeded with that, it would turn into a frustrating grind, In the same manner that when given the reigns to do so, the best DOF and HOYD make offers for absolutely trash players leaving you to reject 3-7 people every 4 days. 

It’s the same issue on FIFA, with hot prospects often having absolutely trash physical and mental stats, yet really interesting prospects spawning at other clubs.  The HOYD is not earning his money bringing me young 15 year old players with natural fitness 4, no pace, no determination who are borderline thick with absolutely no evidence in their stats that they should be playing football. 

It still doesn't answer the question. If you play a 4-4-2, why hire someone who doesn't work in that system? You need a coherent system at any club.

[Snorks]

Getting a HOYD  who's favoured formation is the same as yours is massive when it comes to the type of player he brings in.

[Blue Maniac]

5 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

By the same logic, employing homosexual teachers, you are going to bring more homosexuals into the adult work place.

This is without question the most bizarre and ill-fitting comparison I've seen all day.

[forameuss]

22 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

The current youth development format is unrewarding, convoluted and completely random spawning. 

Convoluted? 

You improve your facilities, and you get a better chance of getting better players through.  Emphasis on chance.  All you're doing is buying more tickets for the lottery.  If you think that's convoluted, how do you tie your shoes?

12 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

There isn’t a better way to describe youth intake any other way than completely random spawning, whose odds for JP JA in your favour increases based on the youth environment you put in place.

Nope, wrong again.  It's weighted in a number of factors.  Mainly your facilities and what kind of competition you have in your area.  If you come out favourably in that, you have a better chance.

11 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

By the same logic, employing homosexual teachers, you are going to bring more homosexuals into the adult work place.

[RBKalle]

14 ore fa, roger redknapp ha scritto:

The HOYD is not earning his money bringing me young 15 year old players with natural fitness 4, no pace, no determination who are borderline thick with absolutely no evidence in their stats that they should be playing football. 

This is the only point I can really agree on.

Some of the newgens that make it to the youth intake, who are supposed to be the BEST my staff managed to recruit, often have godawful attributes and a baffling distribution.

Infamous octagone shapes, like the "Fish CM" (pacey, but terrible at both tackling and passing), the "Sailor hat CB" (low defensive attributes) or the "Basin striker" (moderate pace and aerial, terrible attacking-finishing) have been around for years and still make no sense in a professional environment.
Also, some of the roles just don't seem right for the attributes... If I have a 14yo kid with great pace but with little technique, shouldn't he be better off re-trained as a FB or a WM (or even a poacher)? Instead the game will bring him in as a CM...

Sure "you can retrain him yourself", but that's a waste of time, CA points and effort whereas the "academy" should have taken care of that already, filtering out the utter dross and trying to get the best out of most youth prospects.

I know and I accept that 90% of each youth intake will never be top-tier players, but usually half of them is going to get released and retire within months because they're not good enough not just for my side but for ANY in-game club in the area.

In real life, top-league academies are more or less those who "feed" the lower leagues. For 1 Donnarumma (who can break into the first team at 17), there are 10 not-so-hot prospects who'll end up in the lower leagues and will have decent careers, with only a handful of guys truly disappearing altogether. In FM, I suspect the ratio is skewed toward the latter example.

[herne79]

15 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

The HOYD is not earning his money bringing me young 15 year old players with natural fitness 4, no pace, no determination who are borderline thick with absolutely no evidence in their stats that they should be playing football. 

 

24 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

This is the only point I can really agree on.

Or it could just be FM being a game and getting us involved in an aspect to help us feel in control.  When we see newgens on intake day, they're presented as Trialists for us as the Manager to assess.  If the HoYD were to fully handle the assessments that would mean all the game would be doing is handing us on a plate genuine prospects.

As it is, what happens on Intake Day is the HoYD hands us his report to say "here you go boss, here's a list of our 16 year olds along with my recommendations, up to you who you sign on a Youth contract.  Some are good, some are rubbish and I've annotated the list accordingly".  I don't know if that's realistic or not, but is that really worse than the HoYD filtering out the "rubbish" first?  And if that were to happen, where's the cut off point for the game?  Half a star PA?  One star?  Two?  Natural Fitness 4?  Natural Fitness 5? 6?  How about if they have Natural Fitness 4, no pace, no determination, are borderline thick and rubbish other stats but they have 4 or 5 star PA?  Do they get cut?

The game doesn't just give us things.  It gives us (usually) information to help us make our own minds up.

[RBKalle]

15 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

 

Or it could just be FM being a game and getting us involved in an aspect to help us feel in control.  When we see newgens on intake day, they're presented as Trialists for us as the Manager to assess.  If the HoYD were to fully handle the assessments that would mean all the game would be doing is handing us on a plate genuine prospects.

As it is, what happens on Intake Day is the HoYD hands us his report to say "here you go boss, here's a list of our 16 year olds along with my recommendations, up to you who you sign on a Youth contract.  Some are good, some are rubbish and I've annotated the list accordingly".  I don't know if that's realistic or not, but is that really worse than the HoYD filtering out the "rubbish" first?  And if that were to happen, where's the cut off point for the game?  Half a star PA?  One star?  Two?  Natural Fitness 4?  Natural Fitness 5? 6?  How about if they have Natural Fitness 4, no pace, no determination, are borderline thick and rubbish other stats but they have 4 or 5 star PA?  Do they get cut?

The game doesn't just give us things.  It gives us (usually) information to help us make our own minds up.

 

But by the time we can get our hands on the newgens, any "fix" will cost Ability Points, whereas the preliminary selection (and behind-the-scenes youth football and training) should have at least ironed out some of the most glaring issues.

A player with NF 4, no pace, determination or specific skills should NOT have 4* potential! It's as easy as that...

Even the most flawed talents have at least a forte, usually technical skills, so in the case of a new Mastour or Nikon El Maestro, we'd decide to give the guy a shot (or to sign them only for future profit hoping to lure the AI into paying for a glorified freestyler).

But frankly, a 15yo "striker" who can't jump, can't run, can't control a ball and can't score under pressure should have been told "sorry pal, football isnt' for you" around age 14 by his local coach. And any HoYD who brings me such a player as a trialist at a top-level academy isn't earning his wage.

I can accept it for smaller nations and LL clubs where "recruitment" means "which of the kids at the local sunday league clubs are fit enough or can control a ball", but at a Top-Club level, it's frankly unacceptable.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

A player with NF 4, no pace, determination or specific skills should NOT have 4* potential! It's as easy as that...

Why?  That almost perfectly describes a lot of lower league newgens as well as some from top division clubs.  We're supposed to develop youth players, not just have young players with good all round starting stats handed to us on a plate.

23 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But frankly, a 15yo "striker" who can't jump, can't run, can't control a ball and can't score under pressure should have been told "sorry pal, football isnt' for you" around age 14 by his local coach. And any HoYD who brings me such a player as a trialist at a top-level academy isn't earning his wage.

The simulation of that already happens.  We only see a relatively short list of young players on intake day.  That's simulating that a whole bunch of 11/12/13/14 year olds from the original junior intake (which doesn't actually happen, it's a sim) have already been cut.  Imagine how bad they would have been.  So we get a short list of 10 or so 16 year olds - some which are still naff - with the HoYD's assessment of each one so that in our meeting with him he can tell us "boss, we've already cut loads of Juniors, these are the remaining ones.  Some a naff, a few might be ok, what do you think and here's my recommendations?"

So yeah, the HoYD is earning his wage because he's already filtering the complete list of 100 Juniors, of which 90% have already been cut.  ok, he isn't actually doing that because all of those Junior players don't exist in game, but the whole youth intake day, and the creation of newgens, is a simulation of the club's Junior set up - which in itself is just a simulation based on your youth facilities.

[Karnack]

If the HoYD only allowed players with wonderkid status and potential world beater stats come in the Youth Teams would soon be pretty much empty.

So maybe that NF 4 is the best of a poor bunch, the HoYD still needs to make sure the Youth Teams actually have any players at all or oterwise it's gonna be hard to develop those rare ones with really high potential.

"Welcome to the Academy James Lorne, we have great hopes for you and we believe you can become a Key Player for us. Unfortunately we don't have any other players for you to play with so we gonna loan you out until you are good enough for the Reserves. Bye, see you in a few years!"

[RBKalle]

3 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Why?  That almost perfectly describes a lot of lower league newgens as well as some from top division clubs.  We're supposed to develop youth players, not just have young players with good all round starting stats handed to us on a plate.

At a Vanarama club, sure.

At a Top League level, a guy with no discernible talent wouldn't even pass the first day tryouts for the Academy.

 

3 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

The simulation of that already happens.  We only see a relatively short list of young players on intake day.  That's simulating that a whole bunch of 11/12/13/14 year olds from the original junior intake (which doesn't actually happen, it's a sim) have already been cut.  Imagine how bad they would have been.  So we get a short list of 10 or so 16 year olds - some which are still naff - with the HoYD's assessment of each one so that in our meeting with him he can tell us "boss, we've already cut loads of Juniors, these are the remaining ones.  Some a naff, a few might be ok, what do you think and here's my recommendations?"

So yeah, the HoYD is earning his wage because he's already filtering the complete list of 100 Juniors, of which 90% have already been cut.  ok, he isn't actually doing that because all of those Junior players don't exist in game, but the whole youth intake day, and the creation of newgens, is a simulation of the club's Junior set up - which in itself is just a simulation based on your youth facilities.

 

I maintain a good EPL (or equivalent) youth setup shouldn't even take into considerations players with 4 NF, 5 Pace or with single-digits technical attributes (for attacking roles).

The simulation process happens behind the scenes, which is ok (I wouldn't want to take care of the U17 and U15 sides like in old FIFA Managers), but I still question the attributes distribution for some roles and the shocking level of the Few Selected Ones who are presented.

Also, considering how "linear" the development of the players is, it's not as if we've so many options or chances to "salvage" a flawed player into something vaguely usable.

Last, but not least, most youth players IRL at better clubs are chosen because they have at least ONE trait that makes them stand out in a sea of "just ok" kids. Be it the 14yo who's already 6"2, or the bulky CB, or the technically gifted (but frail) fantasista, or the apparently unremarkable kid who can score with his eyes closed...

In FM youth intakes, that doesn't happen often enough... as most of the newgens are poorer versions of existing "models" (and thus will develop "esponentially") or the few with specific traits are so terrible they're not worth the effort anyway.

[Blue Maniac]

7 hours ago, forameuss said:

[Neotropolis]

21 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

It’s the same issue on FIFA, with hot prospects often having absolutely trash physical and mental stats, yet really interesting prospects spawning at other clubs.  The HOYD is not earning his money bringing me young 15 year old players with natural fitness 4, no pace, no determination who are borderline thick with absolutely no evidence in their stats that they should be playing football. 

I disagree. On FIFA, I've had countless players that've ended up with overalls of 85+. Several have even got to the fabled Messi/Ronaldo 95 mark.

As with this game, it's about managing your youth properly. If you're not playing them or letting the game do it for you, they won't develop properly. 

[Neotropolis]

6 hours ago, RBKalle said:

If I have a 14yo kid with great pace but with little technique, shouldn't he be better off re-trained as a FB or a WM (or even a poacher)? Instead the game will bring him in as a CM...

Sure "you can retrain him yourself", but that's a waste of time, CA points and effort whereas the "academy" should have taken care of that already, filtering out the utter dross and trying to get the best out of most youth prospects.

That's exactly what happens IRL though...a player joins as a 'Striker', but after some assessment, it's deemed that he's unlikely to make it as a one as he is more suited to being say a Centre Back. For example, as a youth player, Didier Drogba was a CB, it was only after realising that he was no good at defending that he became a Striker. It's not a waste of time at all, in all my experience, I've found that the more effort you put in, the greater your reward is.

5 hours ago, RBKalle said:

But frankly, a 15yo "striker" who can't jump, can't run, can't control a ball and can't score under pressure should have been told "sorry pal, football isnt' for you" around age 14 by his local coach. And any HoYD who brings me such a player as a trialist at a top-level academy isn't earning his wage.

But they are though...Harry Kane was brought to Arsenal's academy for a reason, a different decision maker decided that he wasn't good enough so he was removed. Then he went into Tottenham's academy and well the rest is history.

A similar story could be said for Messi. At first he wasn't deemed good enough to play football because he was 'too small and frail'. Now look at him, one of the best players to grace the beautiful game.

[alanschu14]

I think people read too much into the numbers as being say, a 5 meaning "you're useless at this."  As opposed to probably more "you're not very good at this when compared to a sea of professional footballers."  I'm guessing if we put me into Football Manager, my technical skills would probably be overstated at 1s across the board.  In the context of a lot of 15 year olds, there's going to be a lot of raw talent, but I don't think the difference between someone with 5 finishing and 10 finishing is worlds apart. I actually had a striker with amazing physicals that did very well for me in Norway in FM2017 despite not having great finishing because of other skills. Sure he'd have done better with the higher finishing, but he still had a game where he put in 5 goals largely due to his other skills and the goals required not needing an excellent strike.

I am currently managing Wolfsburg, and in the two intakes I've had here (and the intakes I had at Reims) with high quality facilities I've never had a player come remotely close to three stars for CA when they come in as 14/15 year olds.  On my team that'd be equivalent to coming through the youth system with about 140-150 CA. I am new to the sport, but how many 14-15 year olds have ever had that kind of ability?

Now I did have a pair of quality players (interestingly both with the last name Hoffmeister) come through two years ago.  They both had 4-5 star potential and 1 to 1.5 star current ability and after a full season, as a 16 year olds, one of them (a centreback) I'd be comfortable enough playing against weaker teams on my First Team if he were old enough to even be eligible to play. My Youth team just went undefeated and won the German Youth playoffs, and made it to second knockout rounds in UEFA U19 League as well. That centreback is already being rated as a 2 star player and grew immensely in his first full year at the club. He's better than most of my U23 team players which he also is not eligible to play for because he is not old enough.  His CA is 118 as a 16 year old which is very, very good. Absurdly good.

His "brother" (sadly I don't think they are actually brothers) is going along a similar arc. Both have potential abilities 4-5 stars. The only tragic thing about the second one is he has a big bright red warning for injury prone (and it's come up as a youth player already) but... he is north of 100 CA and grew a lot as a player as well.

6 hours ago, RBKalle said:

But by the time we can get our hands on the newgens, any "fix" will cost Ability Points

If the newgen comes in with higher attributes, those Ability Points are already spent.

[roger redknapp]

8 hours ago, RBKalle said:

This is the only point I can really agree on.

Some of the newgens that make it to the youth intake, who are supposed to be the BEST my staff managed to recruit, often have godawful attributes and a baffling distribution.

Infamous octagone shapes, like the "Fish CM" (pacey, but terrible at both tackling and passing), the "Sailor hat CB" (low defensive attributes) or the "Basin striker" (moderate pace and aerial, terrible attacking-finishing) have been around for years and still make no sense in a professional environment.
Also, some of the roles just don't seem right for the attributes... If I have a 14yo kid with great pace but with little technique, shouldn't he be better off re-trained as a FB or a WM (or even a poacher)? Instead the game will bring him in as a CM...

Sure "you can retrain him yourself", but that's a waste of time, CA points and effort whereas the "academy" should have taken care of that already, filtering out the utter dross and trying to get the best out of most youth prospects.

I know and I accept that 90% of each youth intake will never be top-tier players, but usually half of them is going to get released and retire within months because they're not good enough not just for my side but for ANY in-game club in the area.

In real life, top-league academies are more or less those who "feed" the lower leagues. For 1 Donnarumma (who can break into the first team at 17), there are 10 not-so-hot prospects who'll end up in the lower leagues and will have decent careers, with only a handful of guys truly disappearing altogether. In FM, I suspect the ratio is skewed toward the latter example.

I agree with your points, I’m just shocked with how much resistance is met when this aspect of the game gets rightly crticised. 

People have a habit of rationalising this aspect of the game with ‘I like to think these players are part of the Under 12, Under 16 and have come up through the ranks’ - this is demonstrably false, proven by reloading on the day and people get very touchy about calling it out for what it is, Spawning, completely random spawning of predominantly incapable candidates. 

If we want to talk about reality and trying to explain the logic of youth development:

do you think Fergie said “oh I’ll wait until 2nd March 1990 to approach that lad David Beckham, and Giggs” - he didn’t he went to each of their parents houses and sat down and said UTD want you.

The entire youth system would work better if it encorporated elements from the scouting, and player interaction, contract parts of the game.  

Someone argued that if it was any other way people would be promoted to the Under 18s and there wouldn’t be a team there. I know I would have more of an academy if my HOYD actually approched me with prospects continuously throughout the year rather than one festive Spawn day. 

And anyone making excuses about HOYD favourite formation or personality is clutching at straws. The only fair argument for a poor intake is rivals in the area, but as per Spurs academy bringing in the likes of Bentaleb or Arsenal with polish keepers, it isn’t a case of a HOYD rounding up the nearest 20 youths at a bus stop the night before.

Im a FM fanatic as much as anyone commenting, it’s just bizarre to be met with a defensive attitude that this aspect of the game is perfectly fine as it is when it doesn’t even remotely represent reality, probably less so than any other a area of the game.

[Neotropolis]

33 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

I know I would have more of an academy if my HOYD actually approched me with prospects continuously throughout the year rather than one festive Spawn day. 

Having something like this would make the youth aspect so much better!

[CFuller]

42 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

And anyone making excuses about HOYD favourite formation or personality is clutching at straws. The only fair argument for a poor intake is rivals in the area, but as per Spurs academy bringing in the likes of Bentaleb or Arsenal with polish keepers, it isn’t a case of a HOYD rounding up the nearest 20 youths at a bus stop the night before.

It's not an excuse. You really do have to take a lot of things into consideration when appointing a Head of Youth Development - not just their attributes. If you usually play a 3-5-2 WB formation, and the HoYD prefers a bog-standard 4-4-2, the youth players they bring through may not be what you desire.

Your HoYD's professionalism and ambition have some relevance in terms of the youth intake, and rightly so in my opinion. If a 'Highly Professional' HoYD brought through a load of casual players with rock-bottom determination, that really would be no better than... ahem, rounding up kids at a bus stop.

Also, can you please stop using the bus stop metaphor? It makes absolutely no sense on any level.

[Nacaw]

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

Spawning, completely random spawning of predominantly incapable candidates. 

Sometimes I can out roll a 24 sided dice with a 6 sided dice. I'd still rather have the 24 sided dice. Anything related to youth teams is essentially paying for the right to use a larger dice. FM generating regens is way more complicated than that, with several, differently weighted dice. But it isn't random. You brush up on what random actually means here

 

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

do you think Fergie said “oh I’ll wait until 2nd March 1990 to approach that lad David Beckham, and Giggs” -

That's exactly what the game is giving you the opportunity to do with the youth intake. Since you're pulling the class as 92/93 as your example, Beckham, Scholes and Gary Neville all had their debuts in September. They were not randomly pulled from youth football and put into senior games. Promotions from a youth squad to the senior squad often happens like this, at the start of each season. The game is giving you a few months to evaluate the new youth players by spawning them a few months before the season ends. There are very few cases of youth players going from u16 football to first-team football. None of the mentioned players did that. Don't ever expect any regen youth player you produce to become a premier league starter straight away. However, for teams lower in the football pyramid it's pretty common, possibly too common, that you get an instant upgrade through the youth system.

 

22 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

I’m comparing them to other intakes. Especially at teams with less facilities than mine; and supposed lesser HOYDs.

Don't.trust.star.ratings. If you really must compare, look under the hood at the hidden attributes. Players in real life cannot be compared like this, and FM also tries to make that hard for you. There's no way of telling if Chelseas current youth team (u18 champions two years in a row) will have more premier league players than Fulhams u18 team. You wanted something close to football reality, right? 

[CFuller]

If the OP would like an idea of what a typical youth intake from a so-called top Premier League team might look like 5 years down the line, he should look at my club Arsenal's Under-18s from the 2012/2013 season - and where they are now.

Only one player - Alex Iwobi - can currently be considered an Arsenal first-team regular. Ryan Huddart, Dejan Iliev and Gedion Zelalem are also still contracted to the club but have thus far had little to no first-team action, and are either in the Under-23s squad or out on loan.

As for the rest:

• Josh Vickers - Lincoln City
• Leander Siemann - 1.FC Köln reserves
• Tom Dallison - Brighton & Hove Albion U23s
• Arinse Uade - Ashford United
• Brandon Ormonde-Ottewill - Helmond Sport
• Tafari Moore - Wycombe Wanderers
• Zac Fagan - Bishop's Stortford
• Glen Kamara - Dundee
• Jack Jebb - Welling United
• Jon Toral - Hull City
• Tarum Dawkins - Hendon
• Austin Lipman - London Lions
• Harley Willard - Hässleholms IF
• Jordan Brown - Hannover 96 reserves

A few others are unattached (or possibly retired).

So you've got one very good player, a handful of decent ones, a few lower-league journeymen, and quite a lot of "rubbish". I'd say that's roughly what you can expect from an average intake at a club with a very strong youth set-up.

[Things Could Get Messi]

I find it strange that people are still influenced by the star ratings given on an intake. From personal experience these can fluctuate in the early days that you know of their existence. Reloading your save because you only got 1/2 star prospects? What? As someone who has never done this I find it bizarre. I may be wrong but it suggests to me that you are less comfortable reading the attributes and information on weaker players (newgens in this case) than you would probably want to admit. Reloading also tells me that you want to develop youth talent but for whatever reason the odds need to be in your favour if you are to have a chance of achieving it. I don't have a problem with how you play your game btw but I do hope come the end of my post that you realise this way of playing is actually a little foolish. 

 

At my club, pretty much all my regens appear as half star potential. 2 stars CA in my senior squad suggests that player is top class. 1 star current players tend to be at around the stage where they are good enough to start for 80% of the teams in my league. That doesn't mean though I should restart because all my youths only have hope of playing in the league below. In fact, 12 of my current 24 man 1st team squad came through my academy and handed to me by my HOYD. The majority actually only had half star PA when I was first handed them. I also move kids up to my reserve squad as soon as I feel they are ready for it and some actually look totally unrecognisable 12 months later due to the high level of development from the pretty clueless kids I had first moved there. It goes without saying that it is highly likely you have thrown away much better players than the 1 you really wanted to keep. 

 

Saying that you "know" a player has no hope in FM is believing a myth, If you have access to hidden data then you might know but if you don't ever access this like myself then you don't know. I currently have an 18 year old playing in my 1st team. When Holland newgens appear each year I send my scout out instantly to gather up reports on players aged 15 and 16 and this kid popped up. His highest attribute was 10. I shouldn't have blinked. Bizarrely, the only reason I took a punt on this lad you would have seen as a no hoper was because he was the first ever to my memory that was recommended whilst being on the books of Achilles '29. I would praise my own brilliant inspirational mind perhaps there is more to fishing out the top talent than any of us will ever know. 

[roger redknapp]

33 minutes ago, CFuller said:

It's not an excuse. You really do have to take a lot of things into consideration when appointing a Head of Youth Development - not just their attributes. If you usually play a 3-5-2 WB formation, and the HoYD prefers a bog-standard 4-4-2, the youth players they bring through may not be what you desire.

Your HoYD's professionalism and ambition have some relevance in terms of the youth intake, and rightly so in my opinion. If a 'Highly Professional' HoYD brought through a load of casual players with rock-bottom determination, that really would be no better than... ahem, rounding up kids at a bus stop.

Also, can you please stop using the bus stop metaphor? It makes absolutely no sense on any level.

You are providing reasons that don’t actually correlate with real football.

A HOYD is hired based on his ability to identify and acquire talented players. 

If a HOYD is well renowned and good at his job, don’t tell me in reality Man City and Pep avoid hiring him because he isn’t a ‘model citizen’ or because he was a fan of 442 in his playing days.

Like in any organisation, a member of staff adheres to the philosophy’s set in place by the CEO and the business, the business are not at the whim of the employees preferences. 

I’m comfortable with talking plainly about this being a database and a set of algorithms, and a combination of spawns,  but the argument is that it can be refined to represent reality more than it currently is, without a massive multi million pound overhaul. 

[roger redknapp]

34 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

That's exactly what the game is giving you the opportunity to do with the youth intake. Since you're pulling the class as 92/93 as your example, Beckham, Scholes and Gary Neville all had their debuts in September. They were not randomly pulled from youth football and put into senior games. Promotions from a youth squad to the senior squad often happens like this, at the start of each season. The game is giving you a few months to evaluate the new youth players by spawning them a few months before the season ends. There are very few cases of youth players going from u16 football to first-team football. None of the mentioned players did that. Don't ever expect any regen youth player you produce to become a premier league starter straight away. However, for teams lower in the football pyramid it's pretty common, possibly too common, that you get an instant upgrade through the youth system.

 

You wanted something close to football reality, right? 

In reality players are brought into a club at different periods of time, it isn’t 15 players at once, individual talent is spotted and approached by Youth scouts. 

I don’t expect first team starters, but I don’t expect a staff memeber I’m paying thousands of pounds to a year, to do work in the other 51 weeks and 6 days before Intake. 

Show evidence that the HOYD is doing anything other than that?  They aren’t doing what everyone else likes to think they are doing, bringing in players who were in the Under 12s.

if that was the case, reloading the intake day wouldn’t lead to different players names and attributes.  It’s random, it’s a spawn, and the results of the back of installing a renowned HOYD, and millions of pounds worth o facilities are unrewarding. 

If I was offered an option at the start of the game to make my intakes as good as other clubs, or to increase the likelyhood of players I won’t release I’d take it.

id much rather the option to be offered youth throughout the year so I get a sensation the HOYD is doing his job and not winging it. 

[Neotropolis]

10 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

You are providing reasons that don’t actually correlate with real football.

A HOYD is hired based on his ability to identify and acquire talented players. 

If a HOYD is well renowned and good at his job, don’t tell me in reality Man City and Pep avoid hiring him because he isn’t a ‘model citizen’ or because he was a fan of 442 in his playing days.

I'm pretty sure that Pep is good friends with his main recruitment team at Man City. For example, their Director of Football, Tixi Begiristain, worked with Pep at Barca and was good friends with Pep. Plus they share the same philosophy. So yes, Pep and Man City hired people who shared their vision.

13 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Like in any organisation, a member of staff adheres to the philosophy’s set in place by the CEO and the business, the business are not at the whim of the employees preferences. 

Often when a club appoints a new manager, the new manager comes in with their own philosophy. Take Mourinho at Man Utd, he doesn't play football the 'Man Utd' way and is often criticised for it, but that doesn't stop him. Managers bring in people who share their views and work the same way as them. That's why players often get moved on when a new manager joins or when players follow a manager around, so your point doesn't really make sense. 

[roger redknapp]

27 minutes ago, Things Could Get Messi said:

I find it strange that  Reloading your save because you only got 1/2 star prospects? What? As someone who has never done this I find it bizarre. I may be wrong but it suggests to me that you are less comfortable reading the attributes and information on weaker players (newgens in this case) than you would probably want to admit. Reloading also tells me that you want to develop youth talent but for whatever reason the odds need to be in your favour if you are to have a chance of achieving it. I don't have a problem with how you play your game btw but I do hope come the end of my post that you realise this way of playing is actually a little foolish.  

dude, it’s a database, reloading things to test and experiment is hardly foolish. I don’t want to spend money on talent from elsewhere. 

I’ve gone through the checklist of paremeters about HOYD personality, facilities and other factors that should improve intake, and it makes **** all difference. 

Calling it spawning, and doing things such as reloading the game and exposing that there isn’t a back story behind the income of players, that it’s just sheerly random upsets purists. 

I like anyone else here spend my £20-40 a year on this title, asking for a more rewarding experience is well within anyone’s right whether they are critiquing the youth aspect, or the ME or whatever anyone should gripe is.

[roger redknapp]

14 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

I'm pretty sure that Pep is good friends with his main recruitment team at Man City. For example, their Director of Football,  worked with Pep at Barca and was good friends with Pep. Plus they share the same philosophy. So yes, Pep and Man City hired people who shared their vision.

Often when a club appoints a new manager, the new manager comes in with their own philosophy. Take Mourinho at Man Utd, he doesn't play football the 'Man Utd' way and is often criticised for it, but that doesn't stop him. Managers bring in people who share their views and work the same way as them. That's why players often get moved on when a new manager joins or when players follow a manager around, so your point doesn't really make sense. 

Do you think Tixi Begiristain looked at peps philosophy and success and got on board with it? 

You should be able to influence your staff the same way you can become favourite personelle of your players.

The same way you can retrain a players position. 

A HOYD personality and originally preferred formation should have very little influence on the players he is being EMPLOYED at £2-8k a week to bring in. 

He isn’t then manager of the club, you are. He didn’t bring the club to then heights you did, all I’m hearing is justification for the current youth aspect of the game.

reality is that it is hollow and like squad dynamics it could be heavily improved. 

 

[Neotropolis]

2 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

He isn’t then manager of the club, you are. He didn’t bring the club to then heights you did, all I’m hearing is justification for the current youth aspect of the game.

reality is that it is hollow and like squad dynamics it could be heavily improved.

No, he's not the manager of the club, but if you've previously had success with a different formation, why change it?

This just goes back to my point about managers, they rarely change their approach when joining a new team, if it's worked before why change? The age old addage of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' applies here...

I've played Championship Manager/Football Manager for years and I have always used a 4-2-3-1 formation. Why? Because I've had countless successes with it at every team I've played with. I've tried using different formations, but they don't work for me so I run that one. 

6 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

A HOYD personality and originally preferred formation should have very little influence on the players he is being EMPLOYED at £2-8k a week to bring in. 

It has everything to do with the influence. As a winger, why would you join an academy when the HOYD prefers a formation that doesn't utilise wingers? It would make no sense. Yes he's being employed by the club, but as manager, you've employed him. I always look to employ staff who fit with my ideals, if you choose not to then fair enough, but don't complain when they don't work the way you want them to.

[Nacaw]

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

In reality players are brought into a club at different periods of time, it isn’t 15 players at once, individual talent is spotted and approached by Youth scouts

Yes, and this happens in the background on FM, under the hood on youth day, as already mentioned by another poster. You get to interact with the players at a time where they, as it happens in real life, either get promoted to the u18 team or cut. This is how FM represents u16 and lower youth teams, and you can be unhappy about it, but it is not UNREALISTIC in the way it's presented. The first team manager isn't interacting with every 14yo youth team player or looking through scout reports of 12yos. Likely their first interactions will happen in the u-18 squad, but even here it's really other staff looking after the development of the player. From what I remember reading about Sir Alex for example, he would famously rarely speak youth team players, simply trusting the youth coaches to develop them. 

 

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

Show evidence that the HOYD is doing anything other than that?

Nobody has said that he does. The game condenses all his work into youth day because it makes sense to do it like that. It's utterly irrelevant if he actually recruits one youth player per month, or if it happens once a year. You'll get the new youth players presented to you at a realistic time, one that mirrors real life. You make the decision, sign or release, then put them into squads. It all follows how these things work in real life, except of course that different players are generated each reload. But can you imagine the complaints on this forum, if you couldn't reload for youth day?  In real life, the vast majority of youth players are evaluated and move squads at the end of the season. 

 

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

 It’s random, it’s a spawn,

Again, I am politely reminding you that this is not random. Repeating it won't make it so. There's a risk of this discussion going in circles if you are unable to understand this point, and hence our interaction will cease being useful for either party. 

[alanschu14]

1 hour ago, Nacaw said:

That's exactly what the game is giving you the opportunity to do with the youth intake. Since you're pulling the class as 92/93 as your example, Beckham, Scholes and Gary Neville all had their debuts in September. They were not randomly pulled from youth football and put into senior games. Promotions from a youth squad to the senior squad often happens like this, at the start of each season. The game is giving you a few months to evaluate the new youth players by spawning them a few months before the season ends. There are very few cases of youth players going from u16 football to first-team football. None of the mentioned players did that. Don't ever expect any regen youth player you produce to become a premier league starter straight away. However, for teams lower in the football pyramid it's pretty common, possibly too common, that you get an instant upgrade through the youth system.

 

Just to supplement this, most youth intakes are around 15 year olds. David Beckham made his debut for Man Utd until he was 17 years old, long after the "intake" would have made the player present. And it was against lower league Brighton (Div 3) in a League Cup Game.  He didn't play any games for the First team the following season. He didn't have his first full game on the First Team until he was 19 years old (another League Cup game against Port Vale). His first Premier League game came when he was almost 20, after a brief loan to Preston.

David Beckham was no where near "3 stars" when he was 15. He played on the youth team for several years until he was finally good enough to make full time status when he was twenty years old.

Having "one star" youth intake players makes perfect sense and you should probably keep them on your U18/U19 team for the first 2-3 seasons. In Germany I am forced to for their first two seasons as no one under 17 can play in Bundesliga or 3. Liga where my reserve team is.

The players often grow quite well and those with top end potential have a good chance at breaking into the first team 3-5 years after their intake. I fully expect to loan out my Hoffmeisters to Div 2 teams in their late teens. Many of my players stick around on my U23 team since they play in Div 3 and get decent competitive minutes there.

[enigmatic]

I think there's a decent argument that the players coming through the youth academy ought to reflect your own formation preferences to some extent  (i.e. your scouts might have found natural wingers despite you invariably playing 5-3-2, but someone will have forced them to play at striker or wing back in the U-15s at some point to at least "awkward" level if you've been there for more than three months and that's the way you want the side to play. Not that you can't retrain 17 year olds with varying degrees of success anyway). It'd be nice to be able to set basic preferences for physical over technical players or vice versa as well (at the risk of losing the odd physically/technically immature high potential player to neighbouring academies)

But in general youth footballers from the local intake never look like the manager's ideal of what a footballer should be, they just happen to be the a team comprised of the best footballers of their age in the area that didn't get signed by someone else. One of the finest defensive prospects at the UK's most productive academy is Ro Shaun Williams, who epitomises "the fish" on the chart - lightning quick, actually has OK technique but can't really dribble or create and basically plays in central defence because he's bigger and quicker than the opposition strikers rather than because he has a natural defensive brain. The fact the quickest kid in Manchester ended up anchoring United's Premier League 2 defence when not injured had nothing to do with Ferguson, Moyes, van Gaal or Mourinho's ideal defender looked like and everything to do with the fact he's pretty effective there in youth football, probably has the potential to be a pro at some level and young Stams and Ferdinands don't actually come along very often. And if you want Fosu Mensah's you have to go to Holland to look for them.

 

And I hate to break the news, but the reason you can't see any evidence your HOYD goes out to work every day is because he is in fact actually only a record in a database consisting of a few dozen numbers whose primary role is to influence the values of numbers in other records in a database. Which is pretty much the same as everything else in FM, come to think of it....

(And frankly, there's enough tedious pseudo-conversation and newsfeed spam in the game already so the last thing I want is to need to click buttons to send HOYDs messages to convey to the U11s or pay attention to news items on which primary schools his junior coaches are organising U8s coaching sessions at to have a better chance of my U18s turning out decent because somebody has decided it's not immersive enough if you don't understand each member of staff's daily routines)

[HUNT3R]

The fact that you get all players on one day instead of the more realistic way of doing it throughout the year will have been a game design choice. Whether it's to speed up the game overall or make it easier to balance etc etc, there will be reasons for it.

[alanschu14]

51 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The fact that you get all players on one day instead of the more realistic way of doing it throughout the year will have been a game design choice. Whether it's to speed up the game overall or make it easier to balance etc etc, there will be reasons for it.

I don't follow any team well enough but sort of figured it was an implicit "these kids are too old for the U15 team now" or something like that.

How do youth setups in football actually work? I hear about the academy. Is it like, a legit school? I've often wondered how school and football work. In Canada we have Junior Hockey which does see players get drafted and go to regional junior teams (which the NHL often drafts from), but no real idea how say, Arsenal's academy works. Good enough players get invited and stick around, and play on various Arsenal youth teams until they get older?