Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[zlatanera]

On 23/12/2019 at 22:54, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

#1 - use early years in the Academy to build positional versatility.

There's a certain romanticism around implementing a club philosophy from top to bottom; the obvious examples being Ajax and Barcelona playing 4-3-3 at all levels.

This is fine if you know you plan to play 4-3-3 forever, but as you'll have seen, I typically develop a playing style but frequently adapt formations to the players I have available, opposition etc. and, at times, would have liked more options. Plus it's infinitely better to go through the transitional period of learning a new position at U19 level where results are less important, as opposed to the pressure of the first team.

Considering the core of the 'golden generation', I'd like to see them learn the following positions.

Geronimo Rulli - GK
Gedson Fernandes - DR, WBR, MR, MC, AMR
Alex Pinto - DC
Victor Bobsin - DC
Alex Grimaldo - DL, WBL, ML, MC, AML
Florentino Luis - DMC, DC, MC
Tiago Dantas - MC, DMC
Xadas - MC, AMC
Jota - AMR, AML, AMC, MR, ML
Umaro Embalo - AML, AMR, AMC, ML
Joao Felix - AMC, MC, FC

This would have given me far more tactical flexibility to use 3 at the back or 2 up front depending on the opposition.

As the save went on I increasingly abandoned playing anything resembling the first team tactics; instead deliberately playing players in new positions so that by the time they arrived in the first team they can play 2, 3 or even 4 positions well.

At the time I used the 4-1-4-1 (which at the time I expected to be much more of a long-term feature); but would instead be using this:

Simply because it gives Florentino Luis a year at centre back; Dantas and Alvaro learning to play DM; Jota, Embalo and Oliveira game time at AMC and Joao Felix practice as a striker. I'd unlikely use this shape competitively, and would change it each year depending on the needs of the players coming through.

It now almost seems a wasted opportunity to play an U18 player in position.

 

I've been trying to do something like this but I can't seem to get the academy to actually have the formation set outside of games to pick the line-up, if that makes sense. I assume you were just going to the responsibilities screen then picking 'previously used formation -> the formation you want to use' if that makes sense? 

Perhaps its an FM19 bug...

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 01/03/2020 at 14:12, Cadoni said:

Amazing staff here. One question : How you are measure player mentality according to TI, PI and role? 

Up until FM 2018 you could see it visually represented in the Player Instruction screen. From FM 2019 onwards, it's a label - Defensive, Cautious, Neutral, Positive, Attacking etc. I do like this, but you no longer know exactly what mentality a player is 

 

On 05/03/2020 at 14:29, zlatanera said:

I've been trying to do something like this but I can't seem to get the academy to actually have the formation set outside of games to pick the line-up, if that makes sense. I assume you were just going to the responsibilities screen then picking 'previously used formation -> the formation you want to use' if that makes sense? 

Perhaps its an FM19 bug...

I actually had mixed success with this. Some players were used in their assigned positions, and are now familiar with 2-3 positions; others were not used as intended, or not used at all.

I actually got so weird with tactics - because all I wanted was players practicing new positions - I got Benfica B relegated 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 01/03/2020 at 13:55, Razor940 said:

Do you normally give PIs to the players? And I would like to understand what your position on why giving a IF stay wide or narrow. Another thing I would like to know is what you think about the mezzala and IF? Shouldn't they cancell each other? At least I usually see them in the same channel and both don't do much.

Very few that I can think of off the top of my head. The only key one I see as crucial is goalkeeper distribution.

In this case, Umbalo and Jota are asked to Get Forward More in order to pin the opposition fullbacks and create more space for my midfield. I have tried both narrower and wider and never observed a difference. Hypothetically, I'd like them wider, until my wingbacks are advance, then cut inside. That roughly happens naturally.

[zlatanera]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I actually had mixed success with this. Some players were used in their assigned positions, and are now familiar with 2-3 positions; others were not used as intended, or not used at all.

I actually got so weird with tactics - because all I wanted was players practicing new positions - I got Benfica B relegated 

Ah, whenever I select players in a position they do get used in it. My problem is not being able to load custom tactics in and select the positions for some reason. 
I was going to use a striker less W-M with Lyon Reserves, seeing how whenever my B teams are successful it usually means it’s full of guys who have peaked at 19 and won’t get a game in the first team. I think the French 4th tier is too weak for relegation to be a risk!

[Sharkn20]

Amazing thread man, loved every bit of it!

[vrbrasa]

waiting for new updates

meanwhile, a few questions, i'm having problem with the feliz, is taking to much 3 and 4 and not performing as expected, as so the front 3. do you have some pi for this 3 guys? another one is that i see you now have tighter marking, is this something that you would have in the starting of the game or something that you can only added now because the team is more strong now?

btw, i think this save should have a post just for him.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Uh oh..

My MacBook has died, very ominously. Totally unresponsive at the moment. Taking it to the repair shop this morning. Really hoping the save file is on Steam rather than on my computer. Can't say I've checked in a while. Amateur!

[spacewe]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Uh oh..

My MacBook has died, very ominously. Totally unresponsive at the moment. Taking it to the repair shop this morning. Really hoping the save file is on Steam rather than on my computer. Can't say I've checked in a while. Amateur!

its time to go

Caixa Futebol Academy (fm 20 edition)

[Garrlor]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Uh oh..

My MacBook has died, very ominously. Totally unresponsive at the moment. Taking it to the repair shop this morning. Really hoping the save file is on Steam rather than on my computer. Can't say I've checked in a while. Amateur!

2 big mistakes mate...

1) MacBook

2) MacBook

 

I know thats the same mistake repeated,  but its such a fundamentaly important one that it bears repeating.

[zlatanera]

*(takes Steam online for the first time in a year and backs up his saves)*

[Jean0987654321]

4 hours ago, Garrlor said:

2 big mistakes mate...

1) MacBook

2) MacBook

 

I know thats the same mistake repeated,  but its such a fundamentaly important one that it bears repeating.

Yeah. Should have had a windows laptop instead. Mine is still rolling along after 8 years 😂😂

[vrbrasa]

16 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Uh oh..

My MacBook has died, very ominously. Totally unresponsive at the moment. Taking it to the repair shop this morning. Really hoping the save file is on Steam rather than on my computer. Can't say I've checked in a while. Amateur!

Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

[vrbrasa]

10 horas atrás, zlatanera disse:

*(takes Steam online for the first time in a year and backs up his saves)*

😎

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

In typical S. L. Benfica fashion the laptop has risen from the dead; saved at the death by a local IT repair guy like a João Felix screamer in the 93rd minute crashing in off the bar.

What a relief!!  Without further ado..      2019/20 Season Update

The 2019/20 season was a season of consistency, control and refinement.

Some more attentive readers noticed I have experimented with a few different Team Instructions over the past few seasons, leading to an interesting question as to what I consider to be 'core' Team Instructions, so I simplified the system resulting in the following.

A couple of observations, for those interested:

• The inside forward/wingback/slightly withdrawn midfield combination 4-3-3 has improved our attacking threat, largely due to the development of Jota and Embalo as direct goalscoring threats from Inside Forward positions.
• I removed the Look for Overlap, and instead played Attack duty wingbacks. This makes the Inside Forwards slightly more attacking and maintains a positive mentality from the wingbacks.
• My only regular tweak is tempo, depending on the context of the game and how well we're playing.
  • I'll often marginally slow the game down when ahead.
  • When not playing well or failing to control a game I'll also slow the game down to a point we do gain control and then gradually increase over the course of the game, creating a pressure cooker at the end of the game if we're chasing a goal.
• I think the only PIs we now use are goalkeeper distribution to centre backs and Inside Forwards get forward more to pin the opposition fullbacks and open up space for midfield.

The mentality structure is currently:

      17
13          13
   10    10
      6
13  6   6   13
      10

Nice and balanced and compact.

Particularly when Jota and/or Embalo are unavailable, we'll quickly go back to the Guardiola-esq 4-3-3 with out-and-out wingers.

Typically we gain a bit of control in midfield, but lose some attacking threat.

For comparison:

11    17    11
   15    10
      6
10  6    6  10
      10

Domestically, we cleaned up.

Europe was similar.

 

Real Madrid and Barcelona are entering the post-Ronaldo/Messi era, with both comfortably into their 30s. Juventus, Bayern and - particularly - PSG all have massive opportunity to dominate but none have quite capitalised. English sides are currently strong, but are hampered by the competitiveness of their own league; we are able to manage our squad and come into games well rested and often face exhausted opposition, particularly in later rounds.

I've not really got any Match Engine comments to make this time as our style of play is very similar. We're always a 4-3-3 variant; defending as a 4-5-1 and attacking as a 2-3-5.

Something I've really benefited from and will continue to use moving forward is the following view of opposition squads:

This has been exceptionally useful to see, at a glance:

• Who are their key players?
• A rough idea of their style, and who their possession goes through.
• How they attack and where their goals are coming from?
• Their defensive strategy; are their forwards likely to press?

Really found this useful this season and able to make small changes to our approach based off this.

Two key player changes over the course of the season.

1. Braima Alves started out performing Alex Grimaldo early on.

Cue the media circus 

Meanwhile, Braima Alves exploded:

2. Ruben Dias missed a few months and failed to regain his spot from Alex Pinto.

Sadly he eventually didn't even make double figure appearances with Alvaro also overtaking him, but remained loyal and never said a word. I'm arranging a loan for him in the summer and see if we can find him a top club; a few sides in Italy or Chelsea/Man Utd currently suit his style but I am not sure he'll get there after a poor season.

We rotated far less then I have in previous years, really aiming to gel and develop the first team. I anticipate that next season we will need to use the squad more, with most having a busy summer at Euro 2020.

Stand-out performers:

• Tiago Dantas remains the embodiment of our playing style.
  • Averaging 120 passes per game from his Deep Playmaker role
  • More key passes, assists and added a few goals to his game.
  • Newly appointed club captain at 19.
• Jota, Felix and Embalo added significant goals to their game and are now one of the best attacks in Europe; each averaging a goal or assist per game.

The one to watch is Florentino Luis; easily the most under appreciated player in the team. He is the one making everything tick and is really becoming a modern total footballer.

He's an incredibly intelligent defensive player; excellent positioning, anticipation, decisions and concentration. Plays mostly at Defensive Midfield but has also trained at right back, centre back and central midfield which gives the side huge tactical flexibility.

My vision is to use him further forward; in a central midfield Box-to-Box role, with Dantas holding behind.

1. This means our playmaker has an additional player ahead of him, rather than behind.
2. Also that we have a very strong defensive player higher up the field, winning the ball back earlier and in an more threatening position.
3. Finally that Florentino Luis can simply play a more expansive role.

Off the pitch, we're now building up the club with the objective to sustain a squad of this calibre financial without relying  solely on transfer revenue.

Right now, we are playing a very dangerous game denying contract improvements and have a seriously underpaid squad; luckily saved by their professionalism and the atmosphere at the club.

Over the next 2 seasons we are going to be offering a lot of huge pay increases to keep this squad together.

Oh, and finally..

Edited March 21, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

For a bit of lock-down entertainment and an effort to save my sanity, I decided to have a bit of fun with an old classic in the UEFA Super Cup against Chelsea.

Ladies & gentlemen.. the 3-4-3 diamond 
 

For the sake of full disclosure - this is a bit of fun; just putting on a bit of a show in the Super Cup. We'll still be using the 4-3-3 as our primary system.

This is my current take on the legendary 3-4-3 used by Cruyff at Barcelona and van Gaal at Ajax. For those unfamiliar with this, I'd certainly suggest watching the videos in the thread linked; particularly on the role of the 10 and 6.

The system is far from perfect - mainly due to lack of cover on the flanks - but it's a lot of fun to play.

Chelsea won the Premier League last season, under the guidance of Marcelino and his 4-4-2 (which always seems to prove effective).

On the tactics front, our mentality split is as follows.

 

      10
12    12    12
   12    12
      11
   11 9  11
      12

The two main characteristics are:

• The entire team plays positive, yet balanced football.
• We are incredibly compact.

Observant among you will notice that we have switched from Highly Structured to Very Fluid.

• Partially to put on a show, in a game where we have some freedom to go out to entertain.
• Partially an experiment to see how the team - at their current level - play when given more autonomy through the high creative freedom.
• Partially due to my own tactical preferences for the Deep-playmaker.
  1. My playmaker should have a positive mentality; most commonly in the 10-12 range but I'll go up to around 15.
     • I hate having a cautious playmaker playing backwards and sideways passes.
  2. My holding midfielder should have the same mentality as my centre backs for defensive compactness.
  3. My playmaker should ideally be my deepest midfielder, optimising passing options ahead of him.
     • #3 is italic as it's most negotiable.
     • Sometimes meeting #1 and #2 means I have to play a holding midfielder behind my playmaker (in more Structured systems).

Chelsea partially spoiled the competitiveness of the tie with an early red card; but here you can see the basic shape.

Working from the top down:

• João Felix occupies the opposition centre backs from his more advanced centre forward position.
• Jota and Umaro Embalo stretch the defence and pin the opposition fullbacks.
• Xadas sits ahead of the defence, pinning the holding midfielders and holding the ball up for the onrushing Gedson Fernandes and Braima Alves.
• Gedson Fernandes and Braima Alves oscillate from box-to-box, flanking a diamond and attacking space amongst the stretched defence.
• Tiago Dantas sits deep, receiving the ball from defence and picking out one of the 6 passing options ahead of him.
• João Tralhão, Florentino Luis and Alex Pinto create a defensive 3v2 against the opposition strikers.

Off the ball, we're a 3-5-2.

The obvious weakness is the flanks, and I'd need to see it more; particularly playing against 11-men.

• We need the winger to defend their respective flank.
• Then the defensive and midfield trios to both shift across to close the space.

Here's our average positions and heatmap over the course of the 90 minutes.

There we go 

Oh, and..

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[retrodude09]

O-Zil, I just started playing Football Manager again (FM20) & despite that, I've spent the last two days reading this entire thread looking to pick up some ideas / inspiration. I particularly found your 'replication' of Liverpool on a previous page very interesting. Especially the somewhat conservative midfield roles. 

It's a shame you're not playing FM20 (although, maybe that will change given the current circumstances) as it would be great to see how you get on with the new interface! 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

19 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

O-Zil, I just started playing Football Manager again (FM20) & despite that, I've spent the last two days reading this entire thread looking to pick up some ideas / inspiration. I particularly found your 'replication' of Liverpool on a previous page very interesting. Especially the somewhat conservative midfield roles. 

It's a shame you're not playing FM20 (although, maybe that will change given the current circumstances) as it would be great to see how you get on with the new interface! 

Welcome  Yes, it's an interesting idea which I'd like to find time to give more game-time but it doesn't fit my current midfield at all and - obviously - most people are now in newer versions of FM where they've lost that functionality.

It came about after experimenting with a Highly Structured shape with Control mentality and noticing similarities between the way we played and Guardiola's more recent teams; particularly early after taking over Bayern and Man City where he imposed quite a strict possession structure over the team.

That then got me thinking. Firstly, what if I was to speed it up, could I play "Sarri-ball"? (remember I'm still very much in that era on FM ) and then - obviously whilst watching the current Liverpool side - could they be described as a Highly Structured Overload?

It's a different viewpoint to a lot of my earlier threads but essentially a lot of the managers with a more pronounced tactical style I'd probably now argue to be Structured or Highly Structured. As they give more autonomy to the players, they become more Fluid. If I look at recent Sarri, Klopp and Guardiola's recent sides they seem to follow a well defined structure; contrast this with Pep's Barcelona team where Xavi, Iniesta, Messi & co. clearly learned a style but had a high degree of autonomy to create and the earlier Ajax sides epitomised this. I find it interesting, anyway, and it's a shame it's gone from recent games.

The midfield is essentially a balancing act. If I'm going to suggest an Overload attacking system I'd balance it with a lot of Support and Defend roles; which would still have a very high mentality in absolute terms anyway. My feeling is that - done correctly - that system would score A LOT of goals.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[howard moon]

12 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Welcome  Yes, it's an interesting idea which I'd like to find time to give more game-time but it doesn't fit my current midfield at all and - obviously - most people are now in newer versions of FM where they've lost that functionality.

It came about after experimenting with a Highly Structured shape with Control mentality and noticing similarities between the way we played and Guardiola's more recent teams; particularly early after taking over Bayern and Man City where he imposed quite a strict possession structure over the team.

That then got me thinking. Firstly, what if I was to speed it up, could I play "Sarri-ball"? (remember I'm still very much in that era on FM ) and then - obviously whilst watching the current Liverpool side - could they be described as a Highly Structured Overload?

It's a different viewpoint to a lot of my earlier threads but essentially a lot of the managers with a more pronounced tactical style I'd probably now argue to be Structured or Highly Structured. As they give more autonomy to the players, they become more Fluid. If I look at recent Sarri, Klopp and Guardiola's recent sides they seem to follow a well defined structure; contrast this with Pep's Barcelona team where Xavi, Iniesta, Messi & co. clearly learned a style but had a high degree of autonomy to create and the earlier Ajax sides epitomised this. I find it interesting, anyway, and it's a shame it's gone from recent games.

The midfield is essentially a balancing act. If I'm going to suggest an Overload attacking system I'd balance it with a lot of Support and Defend roles; which would still have a very high mentality in absolute terms anyway. My feeling is that - done correctly - that system would score A LOT of goals.

I completely agree with your observations about team structure - certainly in relation to creative freedom. I've always suspected that coaches like Guardiola were more structured, with specific players (like Messi) given extra creative freedom. Fluid - especially the way it's described in the game, seems to describe a Ferguson or a Wenger in that it creates two 'units'; a defensive structure with a fluent attack with forwards given creative freedom, or rather a solid base with space for forwards to 'think for themselves'. 

I think it might have been you that said that more structured shapes were like a manager giving his team a set of 'play by play' instructions on how to manage certain in-game situations. The current hip term for this seems to be "patterns of play". Whereas a manager asking players to work it out themselves is more fluid. 

The issue with team shape in the old versions of FM like you and I play (I'm still on 17) is that it directly links creative freedom with compactness. I know there are ways to be compact on more structured shapes (as you've brilliantly demonstrated) but it's this link between creative freedom and vertical compactness that has always seemed unnecessary and confusing. I'm ignoring the compactness element of team shape now and using it only for creative freedom. My team probably isn't good enough for high levels of CF across the board so I'm going to use 'structured'.

fwiw I'd like to see team shape as a modifier in the game but for it to only refer to creative freedom (and with a better name). I've not played FM20 but it looks like the LOE, player duty and defensive line is what manages compactness.

Edited March 24, 2020 by howard moon

[vrbrasa]

 hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! love that you saved the computer!

so, first, wow! this is a fantastic, what a dream

few questions, in the 433 with wingers, and because you said in the other system, do you have some pi's?

second, if you had a fantastic complete forward what do you change? just drag it to a f9, or cf? 

and again, thanks for your posts, for me, you should post everyday

ah, and another thing, could you talk about the player traits? i think you play a lot here and i would love to read about it

 

[vrbrasa]

ahhhhh, and what about a 4231 variant like you play before? pleaaaase

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 hours ago, howard moon said:

I completely agree with your observations about team structure - certainly in relation to creative freedom. I've always suspected that coaches like Guardiola were more structured, with specific players (like Messi) given extra creative freedom. Fluid - especially the way it's described in the game, seems to describe a Ferguson or a Wenger in that it creates two 'units'; a defensive structure with a fluent attack with forwards given creative freedom, or rather a solid base with space for forwards to 'think for themselves'. 

I think it might have been you that said that more structured shapes were like a manager giving his team a set of 'play by play' instructions on how to manage certain in-game situations. The current hip term for this seems to be "patterns of play". Whereas a manager asking players to work it out themselves is more fluid. 

The issue with team shape in the old versions of FM like you and I play (I'm still on 17) is that it directly links creative freedom with compactness. I know there are ways to be compact on more structured shapes (as you've brilliantly demonstrated) but it's this link between creative freedom and vertical compactness that has always seemed unnecessary and confusing. I'm ignoring the compactness element of team shape now and using it only for creative freedom. My team probably isn't good enough for high levels of CF across the board so I'm going to use 'structured'.

fwiw I'd like to see team shape as a modifier in the game but for it to only refer to creative freedom (and with a better name). I've not played FM20 but it looks like the LOE, player duty and defensive line is what manages compactness.

I have actually totally moved away from using Team Shape as a means of creating compactness; instead using duty (and sometimes TIs).

The Highly Structured Control system has an incredibly compact mentality distribution:

13    17    13
   10    10
      6
13  6   6   13
      10

I always have a couple of reference points:

• Gap between central defenders and holding midfielder.
• Gap between DR/L and MR/L.

And in this case - despite a highly structured shape - they are compact. Don't get me wrong, a Very Fluid shape could put the entire team in the 10-12 range, but never the less we are still pretty compact.

Likewise in the Highly Structured Overload discussed earlier:

      15
17          17
   10    14
       8
17  8    8  17
       8

Again, extremely compact despite the Highly Structured shape.

In the same way that in earlier threads I have advocated against setting everyone as a playmaker; these days I feel the same about Attack duties (in Control mentalities or above).

As a caveat to that, I do advocate the use of Attack duties in Defensive mentality systems in the same way I use Support roles in expansive systems.

For example, this Highly Structured, Defensive 4-4-2 has the following mentality split:

   10
       15
11  8  4  11

12  4  2  12
      2

Compact on the flanks, and centrally with a supporting midfielder not too far ahead and a striker leading the press. Attacking midfielder is a bit of an outlier, but I'd want some attacking threat.

Compare the 3 systems and see how Support duties in more expansive systems can easily have a higher mentality - in absolute terms - than a Attack duty in a more cautious system.

This is probably the single biggest area I think people misunderstand or overlook.

My only frustration is the distinction between the DM and MC(D) mentality. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an MC(D) as compact to the defenders as a DM. This makes 4-2-3-1 more difficult, unless you play 2 DMs which then gives you other problems to solve.

 

1 hour ago, vrbrasa said:

 hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! love that you saved the computer!

so, first, wow! this is a fantastic, what a dream

few questions, in the 433 with wingers, and because you said in the other system, do you have some pi's?

second, if you had a fantastic complete forward what do you change? just drag it to a f9, or cf? 

and again, thanks for your posts, for me, you should post everyday

ah, and another thing, could you talk about the player traits? i think you play a lot here and i would love to read about it

Very few PIs - pretty sure it'd be similar to the ones above. Go to's are:

• Goalkeeper distribution
• Move into Channels where available.
• Get Forward on the Wingers
• Occasionally giving someone freedom to roam.

Yes, precisely. Depends on the player but I'd go Complete Forward (if I want him to hold up the ball) or False 9 (if I don't). Occasionally DLF(S) if isolated.

In a previous save I used Mbappe a lot as a False 9 as I didn't want him holding up the ball, just spearheading the attack.

[vrbrasa]

22 minutos atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

I have actually totally moved away from using Team Shape as a means of creating compactness; instead using duty (and sometimes TIs).

The Highly Structured Control system has an incredibly compact mentality distribution:

13    17    13
   10    10
      6
13  6   6   13
      10

I always have a couple of reference points:

• Gap between central defenders and holding midfielder.
• Gap between DR/L and MR/L.

And in this case - despite a highly structured shape - they are compact. Don't get me wrong, a Very Fluid shape could put the entire team in the 10-12 range, but never the less we are still pretty compact.

Likewise in the Highly Structured Overload discussed earlier:

      15
17          17
   10    14
       8
17  8    8  17
       8

Again, extremely compact despite the Highly Structured shape.

In the same way that in earlier threads I have advocated against setting everyone as a playmaker; these days I feel the same about Attack duties (in Control mentalities or above).

As a caveat to that, I do advocate the use of Attack duties in Defensive mentality systems in the same way I use Support roles in expansive systems.

For example, this Highly Structured, Defensive 4-4-2 has the following mentality split:

   10
       15
11  8  4  11

12  4  2  12
      2

Compact on the flanks, and centrally with a supporting midfielder not too far ahead and a striker leading the press. Attacking midfielder is a bit of an outlier, but I'd want some attacking threat.

Compare the 3 systems and see how Support duties in more expansive systems can easily have a higher mentality - in absolute terms - than a Attack duty in a more cautious system.

This is probably the single biggest area I think people misunderstand or overlook.

My only frustration is the distinction between the DM and MC(D) mentality. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an MC(D) as compact to the defenders as a DM. This makes 4-2-3-1 more difficult, unless you play 2 DMs which then gives you other problems to solve.

 

Very few PIs - pretty sure it'd be similar to the ones above. Go to's are:

• Goalkeeper distribution
• Move into Channels where available.
• Get Forward on the Wingers
• Occasionally giving someone freedom to roam.

Yes, precisely. Depends on the player but I'd go Complete Forward (if I want him to hold up the ball) or False 9 (if I don't). Occasionally DLF(S) if isolated.

In a previous save I used Mbappe a lot as a False 9 as I didn't want him holding up the ball, just spearheading the attack.

how do you resolve the playmaker with the 4231? it would have a low mentality 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 23/03/2020 at 02:12, retrodude09 said:

O-Zil, I just started playing Football Manager again (FM20) & despite that, I've spent the last two days reading this entire thread looking to pick up some ideas / inspiration. I particularly found your 'replication' of Liverpool on a previous page very interesting. Especially the somewhat conservative midfield roles. 

It's a shame you're not playing FM20 (although, maybe that will change given the current circumstances) as it would be great to see how you get on with the new interface! 

 You might find this interesting 

 

 

[retrodude09]

30 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 You might find this interesting 

 

 

Oh this does look interesting! & a very good listen whilst playing FM & nothing else to do. 

I'm actually playing as Liverpool on FM20 right now but didn't go for that "replication" or similar to what you posted recently. I think my tactic probably most resembles one of your positional play tactics that you most recently mentioned with the midfield set up how you would set up with Dantas now playing DM.

Looks something like this:

DLF (S)

IW (S)                              IF (A)

Mez (S)     BBM (S)

DLP (S)

WB (S)  CB (D)  CB (D)  WB (S)

SK (S)

With the following team instructions: Much shorter passing, work ball into box, focus play through middle, much higher tempo. Distribute to CBs. Much higher defensive line & much higher LoE. 

It's going pretty well - undefeated in 16 since switching - although having some problems away from home against team I should beat. I think that's on me though as I need to be better at making switches to try & get the result. One being to lower the tempo maybe, I'm not sure. 

One of the biggest things I took from this thread is using shouts to impact the mentality. I know individual mentality is a little more ambiguous in FM20 than previous versions but it's interesting how using "focus play through middle" shifted my teams mentality closer together.

Sweeper Keeper: Positive > Attacking. CB & DM: Cautious > Balanced which now means their mentalities are much closer together. My Inside Forward is "very attacking" which doesn't change regardless of whether he's attack or support. The only way to change him to positive would be to make him an Inverted Winger or Advanced Playmaker on Support & given the fact it's Salah, I'm not sure I want to do that. 

Besides removing "Gets Further Forward" from PIs, I'm not sure what the difference is between an Inside Forward on attack & support? Maybe a slight mentality decrease under the hood.

[JEinchy]

24 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Besides removing "Gets Further Forward" from PIs, I'm not sure what the difference is between an Inside Forward on attack & support? Maybe a slight mentality decrease under the hood.

From what I see, there's a subtle difference in their positioning and aggression. The IF(S) receives the ball a little deeper and will look for runners before going to goal, whereas the IF(A) receives the ball higher and is more likely to dribble someone or shoot. The IF(A) is a little lazier coming back for defence, too, but balances that by being a great outlet during transitions. 

The "Very Attacking" mentality is there to distinguish the role from the Inverted Winger. How we used to use an IF(S) is now done by the Inverted Winger, so the IF(S) is now closer to a forward (as his name suggests) than a winger.

The Overlap/Underlap TIs reduces the IF's mentality, so there's at least one way or curbing their aggressive tendencies. 

 

Incidentally @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I've been experimenting on FM20 with the Be More Disciplined TI on Attacking mentality and have been seeing a structured style of play. I've no idea how much this TI changes Creative Freedom but I do obverse a significant difference in playing style with it on. For instance, playing an Attacking 4-1-4-1 with Shorter Passing, Higher Tempo and Be More Disciplined produced 700+ passes in a game (and 4 CCCs, so it wasn't all sterile). Granted, I'd only do this with a team packed with flair and creativity, and not with a team of kids like you've been doing, but it's been an interesting experiment in balancing high risk, attacking play with positional discipline and more considered decision making in possession.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by JEinchy

[retrodude09]

3 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

From what I see, there's a subtle difference in their positioning and aggression. The IF(S) receives the ball a little deeper and will look for runners before going to goal, whereas the IF(A) receives the ball higher and is more likely to dribble someone or shoot. The IF(A) is a little lazier coming back for defence, too, but balances that by being a great outlet during transitions. 

The "Very Attacking" mentality is there to distinguish the role from the Inverted Winger. How we used to use an IF(S) is now done by the Inverted Winger, so the IF(S) is now closer to a forward (as his name suggests) than a winger.

I want Salah to be one of my main goal threats so perhaps he should stay as an Inside Forward - Attack for the time being.

"Be More Disciplined" could actually be an interesting shout to use with my Liverpool side (I'm only in January 2021 so I have the core Liverpool team). I agree with @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! that a lot of top teams in the world actually play "highly structured" although I've yet to see a team fluidity anything under "flexible" yet.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

(Hopefully) very quick update for everybody.

I was flying through the summer, until transfer deadline day, when my squad was fully settled with minimal changes and Real Madrid dropped this on me.

Didn't even know he had a release clause! 

I'd sent Lo Celso out on loan as well because Horta was more efficient last season and I wanted to give Baptista more game time. I'm going to try to give a youngster from the academy a shot, as I'm interested to see how Lo Celso does at Napoli but may have to recall eventually.

Otherwise, the squad is extremely similar:
 

 

I had expected the current squad to be unanimously ahead in their development, than the earlier attempt given the dramatic increase in game time but this still is not true:

• Some players are behind in their development.
  • Florentino Luis for example, has played more football, but developed noticeably less.
  • Xadas is looks a noticeably better player last time.
  • Rulli has a marginal difference, probably explained by injury.
• Quite a few have developed differently
  • Work rate is noticeably higher across the team.
  • Jota, Umaro Embalo and João Felix are far more complete attackers and clinical finishers.
    • João Felix is a totally different player.
  • A number of players have retrained in more positions than previously.
• All of the above cost CA points so it's a tradeoff.
• A couple are ahead in the current save.
  • Tiago Dantas, João Felix and Umaro Embalo are all very much profiting from the benefit of hindsight in their development.

Overall, I do prefer where we are as a team this time around; but it is interesting to note that the contrast in the change in development is not as stark as the change in results.

Of course, a lot is random. Perhaps more than previously thought. One interesting thought as long as a player is developing, it's difficult to notice 'at what rate'. This is obviously an unusual circumstance to have a "parallel universe" save to consider. A bit like those holiday saves where people do comparisons of a particular condition, but in quite a bit more depth.

Interested to hear others thoughts.

Over the summer, I took Portugal to the Olympics.

And the U19s won their European Championship.

Safe to say, the future is ridiculously bright for Portugal. All age groups currently jammed with talent.

I'm thinking that this might be the season the squad is ready to start transitioning towards a more Fluid set up, to give the players more autonomy. I'm thinking about it. More to follow on that..

Edited March 25, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[retrodude09]

On 21/03/2020 at 04:45, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The one to watch is Florentino Luis; easily the most under appreciated player in the team. He is the one making everything tick and is really becoming a modern total footballer.

He's an incredibly intelligent defensive player; excellent positioning, anticipation, decisions and concentration. Plays mostly at Defensive Midfield but has also trained at right back, centre back and central midfield which gives the side huge tactical flexibility.

My vision is to use him further forward; in a central midfield Box-to-Box role, with Dantas holding behind.

1. This means our playmaker has an additional player ahead of him, rather than behind.
2. Also that we have a very strong defensive player higher up the field, winning the ball back earlier and in an more threatening position.
3. Finally that Florentino Luis can simply play a more expansive role.

O-Zil, how would you go about this change? Would it be Dantas - DLP (D) with Luis ahead as a BBM? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

O-Zil, how would you go about this change? Would it be Dantas - DLP (D) with Luis ahead as a BBM? 

Yes, exactly.

I think it gives a couple of advantages:

1. Dantas has an extra passing option ahead of him.
2. Luis has a more expanisve role.
3. Luis' pressing ability is put to use higher up the field, making for more dangerous transitions.

[retrodude09]

16 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, exactly.

I think it gives a couple of advantages:

1. Dantas has an extra passing option ahead of him.
2. Luis has a more expanisve role.
3. Luis' pressing ability is put to use higher up the field, making for more dangerous transitions.

It also links back to an article I've seen you link before about Cruyff & his playmaker being the DM rather than an AM. I think for me theres 2 roles that could be used for Luis. A CM-S which would allow you to modify his behaviour ("moves into channels" maybe) or just simply a BBM

[vrbrasa]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! how do you play against 3-4-3 or 3-5-2?

and just a quick question, do you "move to channels" on the roaming playmaker?

 the DLF works wonderful in this system too  

i´m curious to the continuation off this new epic history

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by vrbrasa

[MadOnion]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! The love for Tiago Dantas is mutual. I thought I'd spread more love in these difficult/isolation times.

I do have a soft spot for Pirlo and Xabi Alonso, so my preference is also to have a deeper playmaker.
Since I'm a Benfica, Dantas is, in my opinion, the new Rui Costa we've been craving for all these years. A flamboyant attacking midfielder, a true number 10.

His mentals are crazy for a 21yo who is already fully development according to my coaches, but I'm sure I can squeeze in a bit more. Regarding captaincy, he's already second in command having completed a leadership course, behind the ever-reliant Ruben Dias (who score 9 goals in the league alone courtesy of Dantas' corners/free-kicks).
I could do with a bit more flair, given his mentals, but I'm not complaining. He's a very tidy player.

Playing him as an Advanced midfielder (AP-S) does limit is range (or passing options), but he didn't do too bad since he drops deep to collect the ball and plays risky passes to the runners ahead of him. The striker also creates space for Dantas to operate.

He broke the previous assist record by 13, which is massive, even by the Portuguese League's standards.

Also setting the standards when it comes to average rating...

The definition of a wonderful footballer 

Edited March 30, 2020 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Nice post  interesting to see a different approach. 20 assists! 

[FKPartizan]

What I don't understand you was in like 2030 with regens and now again 2020 embalo felix? Don't get it.

[AndersAas]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

I`m a long time admirer of your work, and fondly remember my FM16 or 17 save with Sporting based on your Cruyff diamond and the modern 4-1-4-1. I`ve followed your threads all the way and are really impressed with how good you are at explaining complex tactical thoughts in a very understandable way. That is key to get your points across.

I`m trying to translate your work into FM20, but that is a hard task when the different player mentalites are so generic and hard to differentiate. @MadOnion tried a bit earlier in the thread, and I`ve continued his thoughts of translating mentality numbers into ranges. This is a start to my project of investigating if it is possible to make a compact, high-pressure, possession based tactic built on your principles in FM20. So far I`ve struggled of getting the mentalities right, because of the change that different player roles now have different mentality. I`ve set up the ranges like this:

Very defensive: 1-2

Defensive: 3-5

Cautious: 6-8

Balanced: 9-12

Positive: 13-15

Attacking: 16-18

Very attacikng: 19-20

 

Any thoughts on the ranges?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, AndersAas said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

I`m a long time admirer of your work, and fondly remember my FM16 or 17 save with Sporting based on your Cruyff diamond and the modern 4-1-4-1. I`ve followed your threads all the way and are really impressed with how good you are at explaining complex tactical thoughts in a very understandable way. That is key to get your points across.

I`m trying to translate your work into FM20, but that is a hard task when the different player mentalites are so generic and hard to differentiate. @MadOnion tried a bit earlier in the thread, and I`ve continued his thoughts of translating mentality numbers into ranges. This is a start to my project of investigating if it is possible to make a compact, high-pressure, possession based tactic built on your principles in FM20. So far I`ve struggled of getting the mentalities right, because of the change that different player roles now have different mentality. I`ve set up the ranges like this:

Very defensive: 1-2

Defensive: 3-5

Cautious: 6-8

Balanced: 9-12

Positive: 13-15

Attacking: 16-18

Very attacikng: 19-20

 

Any thoughts on the ranges?

Thank you for the words and good question! 

My advice would actually be to detach from the numerical mentality system all together and use the labels. Creating the current system I would be aiming for the following:

GK: Balanced
DR: Positive/Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Positive/Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive/Attacking
AMR: Positive/Attacking
AML: Positive/Attacking
AMC: Attacking

In order to do that I'd start with a Positive team mentality, using mainly Support duties.

Messing around with the demo, this is the closest I could get. You might be able to get closer with some more experimentation:

Classic custom tiki-taka  Ignore the TIs apart from Exploit the Middle and Overlapping Left/Right (in the Wingback version).

My Attack duties jump straight to Very Attacking, which doesn't seem ideal, but I'd give it a shot. I'd keep an eye on it, but would worry about penetration with nobody classed as Attacking. I guess the term Very Attacking is subjective.

As general rules I'd want:

• My playmaker on Positive mentality.
• My DC-DC-DM on the same mentality for compactness centrally
• My DR/L-AMR/L on the same mentality for compactness on the flanks
• Striker mentality not too far from the rest of the team to avoid isolation, and not below balanced (ideally positive).

Unfortunately we've totally lost the functionality of Fluid or Structured team shape but I guess you could use more/less disciplined and more/less roaming. I don't think 'Team Fluidity' is anything more then a function of the D/S/A duties.

Interested to hear how it plays, if someone gives it a shot 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[AndersAas]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for the words and good question! 

My advice would actually be to detach from the numerical mentality system all together and use the labels. Creating the current system I would be aiming for the following:

GK: Balanced
DR: Positive/Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Positive/Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive/Attacking
AMR: Positive/Attacking
AML: Positive/Attacking
AMC: Attacking

In order to do that I'd start with a Positive team mentality, using mainly Support duties.

Messing around with the demo, this is the closest I could get. You might be able to get closer with some more experimentation:

Classic custom tiki-taka  Ignore the TIs apart from Exploit the Middle and Overlapping Left/Right (in the Wingback version).

My Attack duties jump straight to Very Attacking, which doesn't seem ideal, but I'd give it a shot. I'd keep an eye on it, but would worry about penetration with nobody classed as Attacking. I guess the term Very Attacking is subjective.

As general rules I'd want:

• My playmaker on Positive mentality.
• My DC-DC-DM on the same mentality for compactness centrally
• My DR/L-AMR/L on the same mentality for compactness on the flanks

Unfortunately we've totally lost the functionality of Fluid or Structured team shape but I guess you could use more/less disciplined and more/less roaming. I don't think 'Team Fluidity' is anything more then a function of the D/S/A duties.

Interested to hear how it plays, if someone gives it a shot 

Thanks for the quick reply. My initial set-up (copying your latest FM18 tactics) were the same.

I find among other things that the overlap (wb version) and underlap (IWB version) lowers the AML/R mentality and hightens the WB/IWB mentality, needed to make it more compact. What I find amusing is that putting the defensive line to much lower an the line of engament to much higher, actullay does not change the mentality of the players. But obvs will contribute to more/less compactness. I will continue to see if changing other TIs will change something, and try these two tactics in my current save game. As far as I can understand it`s either changing player roles or TIs that can change CF and/or roaming that contributes in the following to the fluidity of the tactic. I tried changing different PIs but that does not change the mentality of a player, and you dont have any other way of changing the CF of a player besides the "take more risks" PI.

To create your usual style of play, I will make the tactics with much shorter passing (emulating retain possesion),pass into space, play out of defence, exploit the middle, standard def line and line of engagement, extremely urgent pressing intensity.
For the WB version obvs overlap, and for the "Pep" version underlap + extremely wide attacking width.

For PIs I will experiment with get further forward for the Wingers/IF to try to have more direct penetration because of the supporting roles, and distribute to centrebacks from the GK.

Any changes you would initially do to this setup?

I`ll let you know how it works.

Edited April 2, 2020 by AndersAas

[retrodude09]

21 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for the words and good question! 

My advice would actually be to detach from the numerical mentality system all together and use the labels. Creating the current system I would be aiming for the following:

GK: Balanced
DR: Positive/Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Positive/Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive/Attacking
AMR: Positive/Attacking
AML: Positive/Attacking
AMC: Attacking

In order to do that I'd start with a Positive team mentality, using mainly Support duties.

Messing around with the demo, this is the closest I could get. You might be able to get closer with some more experimentation:

Classic custom tiki-taka  Ignore the TIs apart from Exploit the Middle and Overlapping Left/Right (in the Wingback version).

My Attack duties jump straight to Very Attacking, which doesn't seem ideal, but I'd give it a shot. I'd keep an eye on it, but would worry about penetration with nobody classed as Attacking. I guess the term Very Attacking is subjective.

As general rules I'd want:

• My playmaker on Positive mentality.
• My DC-DC-DM on the same mentality for compactness centrally
• My DR/L-AMR/L on the same mentality for compactness on the flanks
• Striker mentality not too far from the rest of the team to avoid isolation, and not below balanced (ideally positive).

Unfortunately we've totally lost the functionality of Fluid or Structured team shape but I guess you could use more/less disciplined and more/less roaming. I don't think 'Team Fluidity' is anything more then a function of the D/S/A duties.

Interested to hear how it plays, if someone gives it a shot 

woah, that's a lot of Tis! 

I have three questions:

1 - Why did you decide to go strikerless after originally starting with a DLF in the striker position?

2 - Originally when you implemented your 'free 8s' they were CMs modified with PI but now they're a Mezzala & Roaming Playmaker - what prompted this change? 

3 - Finally, why do your midfield roles change when your 4 wide players roles change? 

I 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

34 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

woah, that's a lot of Tis! 

I have three questions:

1 - Why did you decide to go strikerless after originally starting with a DLF in the striker position?

2 - Originally when you implemented your 'free 8s' they were CMs modified with PI but now they're a Mezzala & Roaming Playmaker - what prompted this change? 

3 - Finally, why do your midfield roles change when your 4 wide players roles change? 

I 

Just to re-emphasise, please ignore the TIs. Being lazy on my part I just clicked one of the pre-sets and it gave all of them. I was just looking at the mentality structure so added:

1. Exploit the Middle
2. Overlap left/right

Otherwise, use your own discretion.

I do marginally prefer the positioning of a Shadow Striker - being in a deeper position and advancing - over a Deep-lying Forward. Provides more attacking threat.

If you read a few posts back I talk about my holding midfielder and playmaker.

1. I want my playmaker to play with a positive mentality
2. I want my holding midfielder to have the same mentality as my defenders for compactness.
3. I ideally want my playmaker to be my deepest midfielder, as to have the most passing options ahead of him.

1 & 2 are non-negotiable. 3 is nice to have if possible, but can be challenging.

It would mean my playmaker is my holding midfield so needs not only playmaking attributes but also positioning, anticipation, concentration etc. so requires a very special player - eg. Dantas.

In a highly structured Control system, the DM(D) or MC(D) is always on a cautious mentality and I want to avoid too much caution from my playmaker. If he's gonna get the ball 100+ times per game I want the ball going forward, not sideways or backwards.

Therefore I need to play the playmaker and holding midfielder separately so I use a DM(D) to hold and then the playmaker is free to find pockets of space as a Roaming playmaker.

Re the Mezzala - I just like the movements into the wide spaces.

The midfield roles become deeper when playing with Inside Forwards simply in order to balance.

In one shape:

• Wingers stretch play
• Free 8s attack through the middle
• Inverted wingbacks come inside and protect midfield.

In the other:

• Wingbacks stretch play
• Inside forwards cut inside and attack the middle
• The midfield stays a little deeper to protect midfield.

It's just distributing the responsibilities differently.

[retrodude09]

On 03/04/2020 at 01:57, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Just to re-emphasise, please ignore the TIs. Being lazy on my part I just clicked one of the pre-sets and it gave all of them. I was just looking at the mentality structure so added:

1. Exploit the Middle
2. Overlap left/right

Otherwise, use your own discretion.

I do marginally prefer the positioning of a Shadow Striker - being in a deeper position and advancing - over a Deep-lying Forward. Provides more attacking threat.

If you read a few posts back I talk about my holding midfielder and playmaker.

1. I want my playmaker to play with a positive mentality
2. I want my holding midfielder to have the same mentality as my defenders for compactness.
3. I ideally want my playmaker to be my deepest midfielder, as to have the most passing options ahead of him.

1 & 2 are non-negotiable. 3 is nice to have if possible, but can be challenging.

It would mean my playmaker is my holding midfield so needs not only playmaking attributes but also positioning, anticipation, concentration etc. so requires a very special player - eg. Dantas.

In a highly structured Control system, the DM(D) or MC(D) is always on a cautious mentality and I want to avoid too much caution from my playmaker. If he's gonna get the ball 100+ times per game I want the ball going forward, not sideways or backwards.

Therefore I need to play the playmaker and holding midfielder separately so I use a DM(D) to hold and then the playmaker is free to find pockets of space as a Roaming playmaker.

Re the Mezzala - I just like the movements into the wide spaces.

The midfield roles become deeper when playing with Inside Forwards simply in order to balance.

In one shape:

• Wingers stretch play
• Free 8s attack through the middle
• Inverted wingbacks come inside and protect midfield.

In the other:

• Wingbacks stretch play
• Inside forwards cut inside and attack the middle
• The midfield stays a little deeper to protect midfield.

It's just distributing the responsibilities differently.

Yeah using those two Tis really helps bring everyones mentalities closer together. I've really been trying to minimise how many instructions I use. 

I have to ask - do you use any PIs in your current system? I seem to remember reading somewhere in this thread that your Inside Forwards have 'sit narrower' & 'get further forward' whilst when you use wingers they have 'roam from position' - is that still true? 

I like your thinking regarding the playmaker & their mentality structure. I'm playing as Liverpool on FM20 so I have Fabinho currently who I think is a very good Deep Lying Playmaker at the bottom of the triangle. He has 14 for all the 'suggested' attributes for that position as well as two PPM's that I think are useful in 'comes deep to get the ball' & 'likes to switch the ball to other flank' so that allows me to go with the playmaker as the base. 

In front of him, I've actually gone with two Central Midfielders on Support. I think it was yourself that wrote a thread that spoke about allowing a players PPMs to dictate how they play & it's working out fairly well so far. Neither have any PIs yet. I like this approach because the midfield can essentially be changed depending on who plays there & their PPMs. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Yeah using those two Tis really helps bring everyones mentalities closer together. I've really been trying to minimise how many instructions I use. 

I have to ask - do you use any PIs in your current system? I seem to remember reading somewhere in this thread that your Inside Forwards have 'sit narrower' & 'get further forward' whilst when you use wingers they have 'roam from position' - is that still true? 

I like your thinking regarding the playmaker & their mentality structure. I'm playing as Liverpool on FM20 so I have Fabinho currently who I think is a very good Deep Lying Playmaker at the bottom of the triangle. He has 14 for all the 'suggested' attributes for that position as well as two PPM's that I think are useful in 'comes deep to get the ball' & 'likes to switch the ball to other flank' so that allows me to go with the playmaker as the base. 

In front of him, I've actually gone with two Central Midfielders on Support. I think it was yourself that wrote a thread that spoke about allowing a players PPMs to dictate how they play & it's working out fairly well so far. Neither have any PIs yet. I like this approach because the midfield can essentially be changed depending on who plays there & their PPMs. 

Yep, PIs are minimal. They're a few posts back. I'm never sure what magic everybody is expecting about PIs as I get asked about it all the time!  Keep looking for the "I told Xhaka to tackle harder and he transformed into Vieira" threads! (important note: never - I repeat, NEVER - tell Xhaka to tackle harder)

Liverpool's 2020 squad is actually one aspect making me continually wish for an updated database. In my head I know that I would create that style, but I've never actually done it but it'd be so much better in the older tactics creator. Something about highly structured overload sounds badass to me!

Fabinho is a wonderful player. I found the Tifo video a few posts back really interesting. Personally I'd play it with no playmaker - again it's not something I've done excessively in the past - I normally use one - but I like the idea of players looking for the most direct attacking ball, rather than a playmaker in transition.

 

[retrodude09]

17 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yep, PIs are minimal. They're a few posts back. I'm never sure what magic everybody is expecting about PIs as I get asked about it all the time!  Keep looking for the "I told Xhaka to tackle harder and he transformed into Vieira" threads! (important note: never - I repeat, NEVER - tell Xhaka to tackle harder)

Liverpool's 2020 squad is actually one aspect making me continually wish for an updated database. In my head I know that I would create that style, but I've never actually done it but it'd be so much better in the older tactics creator. Something about highly structured overload sounds badass to me!

Fabinho is a wonderful player. I found the Tifo video a few posts back really interesting. Personally I'd play it with no playmaker - again it's not something I've done excessively in the past - I normally use one - but I like the idea of players looking for the most direct attacking ball, rather than a playmaker in transition.

 

I was just curious about PIs although I don't actually use any other than 'close down more' on my front three. I hope nobody out there is telling Xhaka to tackle harder! 

I think you should just join the darkside & begin playing FM20 (although I'm sure somewhere there is an updated database for 18). I'm actually in December 2022 so my team is a little different although the majority of the current team still start. Major signings have been Lautaro Martinez to replace Firmino & Kai Havertz who plays as one of my midfield three. 

I'm currently playing on 'attacking' but because of how many support roles I've assigned my 'team fluidity' is "very fluid". I think you mentioned it a few posts back but I think some of the top managers in the world today would actually fall under "very structured" (Guardiola; Klopp; Poch & probably even Bielsa) as everything they do is so automated. As you know in FM20 we don't have control over the 'team shape' & I'm not sure I've even seen highly structured come up when I've created a tactic. One possible way to move towards a more structured approach would possibly be to use "more disciplined" as a TI but I'm not sure what effect this has on individual players creative freedom. 

I never got around to watching the Tifo video that you posted recently nor have I ever thought about the effect that having a playmaker would have on your team in transition. 

[frukox]

7 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I was just curious about PIs although I don't actually use any other than 'close down more' on my front three. I hope nobody out there is telling Xhaka to tackle harder! 

I think you should just join the darkside & begin playing FM20 (although I'm sure somewhere there is an updated database for 18). I'm actually in December 2022 so my team is a little different although the majority of the current team still start. Major signings have been Lautaro Martinez to replace Firmino & Kai Havertz who plays as one of my midfield three. 

I'm currently playing on 'attacking' but because of how many support roles I've assigned my 'team fluidity' is "very fluid". I think you mentioned it a few posts back but I think some of the top managers in the world today would actually fall under "very structured" (Guardiola; Klopp; Poch & probably even Bielsa) as everything they do is so automated. As you know in FM20 we don't have control over the 'team shape' & I'm not sure I've even seen highly structured come up when I've created a tactic. One possible way to move towards a more structured approach would possibly be to use "more disciplined" as a TI but I'm not sure what effect this has on individual players creative freedom. 

I never got around to watching the Tifo video that you posted recently nor have I ever thought about the effect that having a playmaker would have on your team in transition. 

Try defensive or very defensive mentality with at least four attack duties while giving one or two support at most if you want to see team fluidity very structured;) By the way, Liverpool is really ripe for high-press possession tactics as they have one of the most complete group of players at the very start-you need to sign a capable left and right fullback immediately, though. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by frukox

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Couldn't help myself; just fired up the demo and knocked this up:

This gives us the following individual mentalities:

Sweeper Keeper (Support) - Positive
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Defensive Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Support) - Positive
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Deep-lying Forward (Support) - Balanced

I'd be negotiable about a few of the roles and the duties in midfield but I think that'd be my starting point.

Hopefully this gets a message across about duties, actually. 4 Defend, 7 Support and zero Attack duties results in 4 players with an Attacking mentality, 2 players with a positive mentality and 5 players with a Balanced mentality... and we wonder why people get confused!!

Why on earth we're still bothering with Team Mentality and Duty, I have no idea. We should simply set individual mentalities; then team mentality is a function of the individual mentalities collectively. It's totally back to front, by my logic.

Team Fluidity must just be meaningless at this point as - sad that I know this - a Very Fluid shape wouldn't need overlapping fullbacks and the Central Midfielder would be more attacking. I really should get out more. Oh, wait..  

Rant over 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[frukox]

12 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Couldn't help myself; just fired up the demo and knocked this up:

This gives us the following individual mentalities:

Sweeper Keeper (Support) - Positive
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Defensive Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Support) - Positive
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Deep-lying Forward (Support) - Balanced

I'd be negotiable about a few of the roles and the duties in midfield but I think that'd be my starting point.

Hopefully this gets a message across about duties, actually. 4 Defend, 7 Support and zero Attack duties results in 4 players with an Attacking mentality, 2 players with a positive mentality and 5 players with a Balanced mentality... and we wonder why people get confused!!

Why on earth we're still bothering with Team Mentality and Duty, I have no idea. We should simply set individual mentalities; then team mentality is a function of the individual mentalities collectively. It's totally back to front, by my logic.

Team Fluidity must just be meaningless at this point as - sad that I know this - a Very Fluid shape wouldn't need overlapping fullbacks and the Central Midfielder would be more attacking. I really should get out more. Oh, wait..  

Rant over 

You could try something like this, hardcore if you want:

                   SK(S)

CWB(S) CD(D) CD(D) CWB(S)

                        A

              CM(S) CM(A)

          AF(A)   PF(S)   CF(A)

Under Positive Mentality

Wide, Mixed Passing, Tempo( should be tweaked during matches), WBIB, Overlap Left-Right, Counter, Take Short Kicks, Higher DL, Higher LOE, Prevent Short Goal Kick Distribution

CWBS: Close Down More

You’ ll love this:)))

Edited April 5, 2020 by frukox

[axehan1]

1 hour ago, retrodude09 said:

I was just curious about PIs although I don't actually use any other than 'close down more' on my front three. I hope nobody out there is telling Xhaka to tackle harder! 

I think you should just join the darkside & begin playing FM20 (although I'm sure somewhere there is an updated database for 18). I'm actually in December 2022 so my team is a little different although the majority of the current team still start. Major signings have been Lautaro Martinez to replace Firmino & Kai Havertz who plays as one of my midfield three. 

I'm currently playing on 'attacking' but because of how many support roles I've assigned my 'team fluidity' is "very fluid". I think you mentioned it a few posts back but I think some of the top managers in the world today would actually fall under "very structured" (Guardiola; Klopp; Poch & probably even Bielsa) as everything they do is so automated. As you know in FM20 we don't have control over the 'team shape' & I'm not sure I've even seen highly structured come up when I've created a tactic. One possible way to move towards a more structured approach would possibly be to use "more disciplined" as a TI but I'm not sure what effect this has on individual players creative freedom. 

I never got around to watching the Tifo video that you posted recently nor have I ever thought about the effect that having a playmaker would have on your team in transition. 

If anyone knows where to find one,please point me in the right direction.

I'm still playing 18.

[retrodude09]

8 hours ago, frukox said:

Try defensive or very defensive mentality with at least four attack duties while giving one or two support at most if you want to see team fluidity very structured;) By the way, Liverpool is really ripe for high-press possession tactics as they have one of the most complete group of players at the very start-you need to sign a capable left and right fullback immediately, though. 

Why would you need to sign more capable full backs when they have Robertson & Alexander-Arnold to begin with? Arguably two of the best full backs in the world right now.

I will agree that the Liverpool team could be well suited to a high-press possession tactic, after all, thats essentially how they play right now although possession seems flawed in the current ME. 

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Couldn't help myself; just fired up the demo and knocked this up:

This gives us the following individual mentalities:

Sweeper Keeper (Support) - Positive
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Ball Playing Defender (Defend) - Balanced
Complete Wingback (Support) - Attacking
Defensive Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Defend) - Balanced
Central Midfielder (Support) - Positive
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Inside Forward (Support) - Attacking
Deep-lying Forward (Support) - Balanced

I'd be negotiable about a few of the roles and the duties in midfield but I think that'd be my starting point.

Hopefully this gets a message across about duties, actually. 4 Defend, 7 Support and zero Attack duties results in 4 players with an Attacking mentality, 2 players with a positive mentality and 5 players with a Balanced mentality... and we wonder why people get confused!!

Why on earth we're still bothering with Team Mentality and Duty, I have no idea. We should simply set individual mentalities; then team mentality is a function of the individual mentalities collectively. It's totally back to front, by my logic.

Team Fluidity must just be meaningless at this point as - sad that I know this - a Very Fluid shape wouldn't need overlapping fullbacks and the Central Midfielder would be more attacking. I really should get out more. Oh, wait..  

Rant over 

I think thats a really good starting point. Starting Firmino as a striker that drops off should work well, especially with the Inside Forwards narrow & getting past him with the full backs giving width. 

I think the back 5 & front 3 are non-negotiable for Liverpool because I don't think their 'roles' change much game to game. If you watch any Liverpool game from the last 18 months or so I think you'll find them in similar players consistently. I do however think that their midfield changes game by game.

[frukox]

10 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Why would you need to sign more capable full backs when they have Robertson & Alexander-Arnold to begin with? Arguably two of the best full backs in the world right now.

I will agree that the Liverpool team could be well suited to a high-press possession tactic, after all, thats essentially how they play right now although possession seems flawed in the current ME. 

I think thats a really good starting point. Starting Firmino as a striker that drops off should work well, especially with the Inside Forwards narrow & getting past him with the full backs giving width. 

I think the back 5 & front 3 are non-negotiable for Liverpool because I don't think their 'roles' change much game to game. If you watch any Liverpool game from the last 18 months or so I think you'll find them in similar players consistently. I do however think that their midfield changes game by game.

The team plays more than 50 matches during the season. So a capable spare left and right wingback will help TAA and Robertson keep their top condition during the season to avoid jadedness. For example, Gaya and Max Aarons.

[retrodude09]

4 hours ago, frukox said:

The team plays more than 50 matches during the season. So a capable spare left and right wingback will help TAA and Robertson keep their top condition during the season to avoid jadedness. For example, Gaya and Max Aarons.

Seems like an awful lot of money to spend on players who are essentially back ups. I signed Francis from Real Betis & Ait-Nouri from Angers for a combined total of £15 Million. Francis made 27 appearances across two seasons before being sold with Ait-Nouri making 24 & he's still at the club. Liverpool's starting XI is already very strong & I would argue it's more important to increase depth across the whole side, particularly the front 3. Anyway, we're derailing O-Zils thread here.

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! The only role I would maybe change would be Firmino & that would be to a False 9 but I think a Deep Lying Forward would work well here. I then think the midfield pairing of Central Midfielder - Defend & Central Midfielder - Support would change based on the players you have available to you. Although, on very attacking it could probably stay like that & produce good results. 

[frukox]

5 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Seems like an awful lot of money to spend on players who are essentially back ups. I signed Francis from Real Betis & Ait-Nouri from Angers for a combined total of £15 Million. Francis made 27 appearances across two seasons before being sold with Ait-Nouri making 24 & he's still at the club. Liverpool's starting XI is already very strong & I would argue it's more important to increase depth across the whole side, particularly the front 3. Anyway, we're derailing O-Zils thread here.

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! The only role I would maybe change would be Firmino & that would be to a False 9 but I think a Deep Lying Forward would work well here. I then think the midfield pairing of Central Midfielder - Defend & Central Midfielder - Support would change based on the players you have available to you. Although, on very attacking it could probably stay like that & produce good results. 

Mate, when the season kicks in, you need to rotate a lot and these two players do their jobs on the pitch perfectly if they need rotation ahead of a big match. I agree with you on the need for another forward. For example, Martinez could be the perfect false nine after you trained some traits for him. Anyway, these are personal choices. This is the beauty of this game:)