Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[jordan_ye]

9 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Regista is a really difficult role to pull off.

The first thing I would do is to ensure the regista is the team's sole playmaker. Then I would make sure that my Team Mentality, Shape and TIs combine to give the Regista a "Positive" or 10 (minimum) to 12 mentality, if you're looking at the numbers.

The reason I say that it's difficult is that I have never found that it sits well in a midfield 3 as it gets forward by default I find the midfield gets on top of each other. Also it's the least defensively minded (as it gets forward) so you need to structure your team to a) give the regista space and b) make sure you're still defensively covered.

A final comment is that the Regista role sounds cool, but ultimately it's just a set of preset instructions; in many cases - particularly if you're playing possession football - a Deeplying or Roaming Playmaker is possibly closer to what you're looking for. I'm not saying don't use it, but just make sure it's for a tangible reason rather than the cool name 

Thank you!! Another question I have in game is that do you think DM and centre back is underplayed in build-up in FM? When I am looking at real life football, I found that DM and centre back is usually the player who made most pass in the game. No matter a direct-attacking team like Liverpool or tiki-taka team as Man City. But in FM's ME, dm and cb's value in build up is usually bypassed. 

[vrbrasa]

8 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

My idea for Benfica would be the 4-3-3 which becomes a 2-3-5 in attack:

The alternative 4-3-3 would be a deeper midfield and more advanced wingbacks and inside forwards, creating more of a 3-4-3 in attack.

Then a back 3 variant, which would require quite a bit of retraining yet but would be a useful option.

I actually see Klopp's Liverpool quite differently. To me, their pressing, high line and attacking football would certainly be Overload. Given the discipline Klopp has instilled and the defenders play I'd say Highly Structured.

This distributes individual mentalities as follows:
 

      15
17          17
   10    14
       8
17  8    8  17
       8

This would see Salah and Mane attacking space around Firminho, Robertson and Alexander-Arnold rampaging down the flanks and a reasonably reserved midfield.

I wouldn't be inclined to use this with Benfica - simply because Benfica have a lot of creative central players, where as this is more suitable for hard-working runners - but I do think that it would work extremely well. I'd actually love to see Arsenal play like this with Aubameyang, Lacazette, Pepe, Tierney and Bellerin.

so you will continue the save? i would love to see whats you are going to do this time. did you get the guys to first team or they are playing in sub18? did you sell every one in the first team? this open a lot of things now...

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 26/12/2019 at 20:23, cristhianlinhatti said:

hello, ozil

can you do more details about PI's in your Klopp's system?

tks

Nothing fancy. Obviously goalkeeper distribution. Probably getting Firminho moving into channels and Salah and Mane moving forward and narrower, creating that front 3.

 

On 26/12/2019 at 20:25, jordan_ye said:

Thank you!! Another question I have in game is that do you think DM and centre back is underplayed in build-up in FM? When I am looking at real life football, I found that DM and centre back is usually the player who made most pass in the game. No matter a direct-attacking team like Liverpool or tiki-taka team as Man City. But in FM's ME, dm and cb's value in build up is usually bypassed. 

I've actually never noticed the DC in particular, but FM has always been off in the passing and possession calculations in comparison to real life.

 

23 hours ago, vrbrasa said:

so you will continue the save? i would love to see whats you are going to do this time. did you get the guys to first team or they are playing in sub18? did you sell every one in the first team? this open a lot of things now...

I'm thinking about it, but not sure. I could certainly implement a few new tricks with the advantage of hindsight. I'm at a bit of a loose end at the moment, and ever so slightly addicted to this Benfica team 

[kandersson]

 

Was inspired by the last set of strikerless formations so decided to try something similar in my Qatar save (FM 20). I have easily the strongest team in the league and a group of (relatively) talented attackers/playmakers, still a pretty impressive performance:

Also went with Positive and Lower tempo as my players (except Gabi) generally lack the mental attributes to thrive at high tempo and creative freedom. SS and MEZ are described as Very Attacking in this setting, W,RPM and IWB are Positive and the rest are Balanced. This also resulted in a Flexible fluidity.

 

4 goals in this game for Shadow Striker Bruninho (might be thanks to his glorious Teamwork ). 

I'm a fan of strikerless formations and especially like the type of chances they create for SS, though I typically tend to struggle against teams playing cautious/defensive (which happens a lot) as they stay deep and don't concede much space to exploit. What would you suggest to do in these cases? With the right players would you eventually go Overload (Very Attacking in FM 20) and maybe a Be More expressive TI?

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

18 hours ago, kandersson said:

I'm a fan of strikerless formations and especially like the type of chances they create for SS, though I typically tend to struggle against teams playing cautious/defensive (which happens a lot) as they stay deep and don't concede much space to exploit. What would you suggest to do in these cases? With the right players would you eventually go Overload (Very Attacking in FM 20) and maybe a Be More expressive TI?

It massively depends. When playing possession football, I would watch more of the game and look at where attacks break down. That's the reason I have the 4-3-3 with the deeper midfield - HB-DLP(S)-Mez(S) - as sometimes against a particularly strong midfield we might struggle to play through, so drop deeper and build up via a different route.

I also like to up the pressing. Make it impossible for the opposition to do anything at all, basically choke them out and create a real pressure cooker 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Experimenting to see how far this young group can go and seeing some highly encouraging football, even at Champions League level.

Absolutely controlled this game with most of our team rated around 2 stars for current ability and theirs 3-4 stars all round.

[vrbrasa]

1 hora atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Experimenting to see how far this young group can go and seeing some highly encouraging football, even at Champions League level.

Absolutely controlled this game with most of our team rated around 2 stars for current ability and theirs 3-4 stars all round.

do you have some specials pi or have more ti that you did not show? i find very hard to play like this with 2-3 stars and 18-19 years. and with the better and older too. what should i look for? the first i notice is that i have much less possession. arond 55%. champions, i have to change to a more cation tactic... 

i know that you put a lot in this, and i love it, but could you elaborate a little more about how you make all this super stars (i think you are a genius, really :D)?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, vrbrasa said:

do you have some specials pi or have more ti that you did not show? i find very hard to play like this with 2-3 stars and 18-19 years. and with the better and older too. what should i look for? the first i notice is that i have much less possession. arond 55%. champions, i have to change to a more cation tactic... 

i know that you put a lot in this, and i love it, but could you elaborate a little more about how you make all this super stars (i think you are a genius, really :D)?

Thank you very much  The only PIs I can think of off the top of my head are Goalkeeper distribution to centre backs and midfielders moving into channels.

I have noticed possession is a lot higher with Highly Structured; in the original save I was seeing around 65% possession. I think it's just down to players being more disciplined.

[Clean Sheet]

What situations do you use the three different tactics (433 winges, 433 inside forwards and the back 3). Do u change it to counter a certain tactic or situation

Edited December 30, 2019 by Clean Sheet

[leesmith90]

Hey @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I’m looking at starting a career with Man U (generic I know) but will be trying to develop the younger players rather than buying too many players. To get a positive/attacking style of possession football with aggressive pressing (similar to your benfica) how would you recommend setting up man Uniteds attack and midfield? It seems like it would be difficult to fit players like Rashford, martial, Daniel James and mason Greenwood together when they’re all reasonably similar i.e. they only seem suitable on the wings as none of them scream “complete forward” to me 

[vrbrasa]

I also curious about the b team and sub18. With tactic are you playing in the b team? Who are at sub18? 

How are they progressing? 

[Deego619]

Thanks to this thread I've probably had the most fun save I've ever had on FM with St. Pats Athletic in Ireland on FM19. As a thank you, I'll share some of my save here!

 

We've won the domestic title every single year of the save, 14 in a row, and I feel the squad has transition 3/4 times since then whilst maintaining a focus on youth. Europa League win in 2025 was followed by two CL final appearances in 2029 with a young squad, and last season with that squad beginning to hit it's prime.

 

 

My current squad features 9 homegrown players, with two more qualifying this season to bring the total up to 11. Of the 11, 4 are products of our academy (McGlade, Hutchinson, Navarro and McGinty).

 

A flexible flat 4-5-1 based on intense pressing and bringing the best out of our "False 8s" Kranjcar (I like to think he's Niko's son) and academy product McGlade.

I like to look for similar attributes where possible to Ozil to find "complete players" across the team, even buying Carlos Lopes a natural CM to play at LB (like Ozil did with Braganca), with a preference towards Determination and good personalities (since mentoring from FM19 on is more difficult).

 

Are there weaknesses? Sure, we lack teamwork, concentration, work rate is a notch below where I'd like it to be and off the ball movement isn't a strong suit of this side.

All of this contributes to why I have not went "Very Fluid" with this side and stick to the middle ground. Let the wingers drive forward, the false 8s, IWBs and striker do their own things, and leave the central MC and center backs to hold fort. Easy.

 

My under 19s play in a similar manner. They've swept all before them, picking up 14 domestic titles and 2 youth CL titles during this save. Sicari is on his way out, because as Ozil and SFraser says, he's not going to ever be good enough for my first team, so I'm letting him go to PSG for 500k (lol PSG wut?) as nobody wished to loan him.

 

Big hopes for this guy to one day become a False 8, he has all the attributes including "Gets Into Opposition Area". I'm looking to give him some domestic cup game time this season.

Here are some of my big hitters:

 

Stefan is one of the funniest stories I've seen playing FM. I originally brought him as a 20 year old to play left back! What a waste that would have been. Pretty soon, I realized my mistake as he developed, and retrained him from a CM to a CB where he is now natural. He provides a solid core to the team, confident in bringing the ball out of defence and has all attributes you want in a defensive player. Turned down a 100m bid from Real Madrid, which is crazy money for the Irish league.

 

Dean Martin, I know right?  

I scouted him early, but due to Scottish rules he couldn't join us until his 18th birthday. Since then, he's exploded. I gave him the run with ball PPMs to make use of his explosiveness, whilst training his technical skills (passing, first touch, technique) to make him a complete striker who I turn down 100s of bids for every window.

If people are interested I can write some more about my save as I progress, this thread is in my opinion the best ever on here so I'm happy to keep it going.

[Duke313]

@ö-zil-to-the-arsenal Do you still il play on FM19, have you any plans to move to FM20?

[False 9]

17 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

Thanks to this thread I've probably had the most fun save I've ever had on FM with St. Pats Athletic in Ireland on FM19. As a thank you, I'll share some of my save here!

 

We've won the domestic title every single year of the save, 14 in a row, and I feel the squad has transition 3/4 times since then whilst maintaining a focus on youth. Europa League win in 2025 was followed by two CL final appearances in 2029 with a young squad, and last season with that squad beginning to hit it's prime.

 

 

My current squad features 9 homegrown players, with two more qualifying this season to bring the total up to 11. Of the 11, 4 are products of our academy (McGlade, Hutchinson, Navarro and McGinty).

 

A flexible flat 4-5-1 based on intense pressing and bringing the best out of our "False 8s" Kranjcar (I like to think he's Niko's son) and academy product McGlade.

I like to look for similar attributes where possible to Ozil to find "complete players" across the team, even buying Carlos Lopes a natural CM to play at LB (like Ozil did with Braganca), with a preference towards Determination and good personalities (since mentoring from FM19 on is more difficult).

 

Are there weaknesses? Sure, we lack teamwork, concentration, work rate is a notch below where I'd like it to be and off the ball movement isn't a strong suit of this side.

All of this contributes to why I have not went "Very Fluid" with this side and stick to the middle ground. Let the wingers drive forward, the false 8s, IWBs and striker do their own things, and leave the central MC and center backs to hold fort. Easy.

 

My under 19s play in a similar manner. They've swept all before them, picking up 14 domestic titles and 2 youth CL titles during this save. Sicari is on his way out, because as Ozil and SFraser says, he's not going to ever be good enough for my first team, so I'm letting him go to PSG for 500k (lol PSG wut?) as nobody wished to loan him.

 

Big hopes for this guy to one day become a False 8, he has all the attributes including "Gets Into Opposition Area". I'm looking to give him some domestic cup game time this season.

Here are some of my big hitters:

 

Stefan is one of the funniest stories I've seen playing FM. I originally brought him as a 20 year old to play left back! What a waste that would have been. Pretty soon, I realized my mistake as he developed, and retrained him from a CM to a CB where he is now natural. He provides a solid core to the team, confident in bringing the ball out of defence and has all attributes you want in a defensive player. Turned down a 100m bid from Real Madrid, which is crazy money for the Irish league.

 

Dean Martin, I know right?  

I scouted him early, but due to Scottish rules he couldn't join us until his 18th birthday. Since then, he's exploded. I gave him the run with ball PPMs to make use of his explosiveness, whilst training his technical skills (passing, first touch, technique) to make him a complete striker who I turn down 100s of bids for every window.

If people are interested I can write some more about my save as I progress, this thread is in my opinion the best ever on here so I'm happy to keep it going.

Nice post, do you have any PIs and have you tried this on FM20? 

[Deego619]

1 hour ago, False 9 said:

Nice post, do you have any PIs and have you tried this on FM20? 

None apart from the False 8s. I tick get forward, roam from position, dribble more and pass it shorter.

I wouldn't call it a plug and play tactic though so it's use at your own risk, it's suited to the style of players I have. I started the save playing a simpler 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 variant until I had players the quality of Kranjcar and McGlade where I didn't want to leave one out, and I had a gifted both footed DLP to sit inbetween them and a complete striker to interact with them.

As for FM20, I've bought it but haven't really played it yet as this save has captivated me. Nothing in it is designed to beat a specific ME though so I'd imagine it should work across FMs.

 

[Deego619]

CL Semi Final 1st Leg

 

Didn't give Liverpool a sniff in the CL 1/2 finals. 

The build up to our second goal shows the strength of our style of play well. Our CF/S Martin wins a knock down from a goal kick, turns and begins to run into the behind of their 4-2-3-1 system as per his PPMs. The false 8s are running past their man into space, whilst 11 is providing another option out wide.

Martin decides to keep running until the last moment, leaving a center back on the floor whilst the other scrambles to recover, leaving a gap that 30 and 7 can run in to.

It's picked up by 7 my right winger, who finishes in the bottom corner. 

Goal number three follows a similar pattern, we are overloading them in the middle of the park, making it easy to play out from the back and dominate the game:

Here is how this play develops from here (sped up for GIF purposes):

Center back - IWB - False 8 - CF - RW - False 8 - Goal

Their midfielders are all over the place due to our numbers, Martin drags the center backs with him, right winger sees the false 8 exploit the space (using "Gets into opposition area" PPM), goal..

Let's break down how this goal happened.

At the back:

I prioritize players who can play the ball out from the back and can pick a pass under pressure. You've seen Drndarski already, but his partner is also quite comfortable with the ball

His composure is a weakness, but I'd take that for his other attributes, namely his strength in the air to defend/attack set pieces. He is also nimble and makes good decisions.

IWB:

In a similar vein I want them to be able to recycle possession in the middle of the park in the absence of the False 8s, also to offer our DLP options:

Like the center backs, I like to have a balance. Lopes is not a full back and is playing there solely for his ball playing ability. Matheisen is a natural full back with decent ball playing skills. They complement each other well whilst not hampering the team with their weaknesses.

False 8:

McGlade is able to take the ball in the gif above, dribble some before spraying the forward pass to Martin because he's a true technician, not afraid to express himself on the pitch:

 

So the build up is methodical and has been constructed over the past few seasons as McGlade and Kranjcar have matured into players who cannot be left out of the side. Squad building is by far the best part of this game, and this thread is the holy grail  

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by JDeeguain

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I am not sure at what point I should start getting really excited about this. Clearly more than just a flash in the pan. We have now passed, and passed, and passed our way through the Champions League group stage.

In fact, we have the best possession stats in Europe right now.

With the majority of the team teenagers, and a long way from their potential.

16 year old Dantas is running the show with more than 120 passes per game at 90% accuracy.

Dortmund, Club Brugge and Monaco are fairly substantial opposition and we have enjoyed absolute control and the games, even keeping opponents without a shot on target.

Really interested to see where this could go. Squad management is becoming particularly difficult, with the established first team complaining about lack of game time.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[wakesta]

Really good detailed information on this

[Spiegel]

Interesting to see where this second playthrough could go. Do you have any plans to utilise any players who didn't make the cut the first time round?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

The European Adventure continues..

Enjoying a nice relaxing weekend with some spare time to re-immerse myself in this save.

We polished off the rest of the Champions League group games without much trouble.

After hacking our way through the Christmas period and a patchy run of form in the league, we faced Man Utd in the 2nd Round Knockout as the youthful side attempted to reach the next level.

Concerned by the strength in Man Utd's Pogba - Matic midfield combo, I decided to withdraw my midfield slightly; aiming to have Dantas and Luis play ahead of them and Xadas probe any gaps they might leave when they press.

Luck played a huge part, but essentially we controlled possession - Dantas, again, superb - and nicked a late goal.
 

At home, we played the lowest possible tempo and aimed to simply keep the ball away from Man Utd as much as possible and that was enough to progress.

I should point out at this point that it really isn't all sunshine and rainbows; as you can see, we have become quite goal shy. We are involved in a real title race domestically, and have a largely unhappy squad with established players not getting enough game time with the youngsters coming through.

At this point, I am not attributing the lack of goals to tactics. It's more simply the level our the young players are at. We are focusing on controlling possession and choking games; we could easily be criticised for sterile possession tactics, but we're working with what we've got and it's working well. I am pretty sure goals will come as young players develop. Dantas remains absolutely key to everything. 17 years old now and is playing like the best passing midfielder in Europe at the moment.

He's averaging nearly 120 passes per game and crucial to everything; including 111 complete passes at Old Trafford.

Not bad stats for a team of 2-3 star players 

Next up, Chelsea. Unsure of how to approach Conte's 3-4-3 I decided to go back to our base 4-3-3 / 2-3-5 and see how the game plays out. We actually struggled with possession for the first time, with Kante the first player to neutralise Dantas. Instead it was really Jota and Embalo who managed to get in behind Chelsea's wingbacks and stretch their back 3, leaving gaps for João Felix and our free 8s so we played more directly and exploited that.

The return leg was a repeat, again struggling for possession but holding them to a draw and the adventure goes on!

Quite an emotionally exhausting couple of days. Should hopefully find the time to finish off the season next weekend.

Champions League Semi-Finalists:

• Real Madrid
• Atletico Madrid
• Tottenham
• Benfica

Hoping to avoid Real, but at this point I'll take what I get. Quite frankly I am still amazed by the season.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Wow, stunning performance in the first leg hosting Atletico Madrid.

Once again, just to show the disparity between the ability level of this team in comparison to the teams they are defeating with increasing ease..

Versus:

Second leg was difficult to maintain momentum, but largely shut Atleti down.

Domestically, we finished off the league nicely.

Time to dust off the suit!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

FOOTBALL MANAGER, YOU ARE JOKING!!

Florentino Luis, Jota and Embalo have been called up by Portugal U20s making them unavailable for the Champions League final.

      

[gubei2001]

38 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

FOOTBALL MANAGER, YOU ARE JOKING!!

Florentino Luis, Jota and Embalo have been called up by Portugal U20s making them unavailable for the Champions League final.

      

It's quite normal. I remembered when I managed a Chinese club they left me with 8 first-team players for the Asian Championship League Final, which I magically won with a bunch of youngsters. My solution was to work my way up to manage the Chinese national team to pick the players by myself. My club players were not happy for being excluded to the national team though

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Fairytale complete. Quite frankly, I am shocked.

After the devastating withdrawal of Florentino Luis, Jota and Umaro Embalo, we replaced with like-for-like. Trying to maintain as much consistency as possible, even though their absence clearly disrupted the team massively.

The final itself was a fairly dour affair. I've always found Real Madrid's Kroos, Modric, Kovacic midfield possibly the most difficult to play against and this was no different.

We struggled to get a foothold in possession and failed to record a single shot on target in the first half but our pressing and organisation stifled Real Madrid. The midfield diamond particularly effective.

Our goal actually came directly from our pressing. João Felix pressured a sloppy pass back to Sergio Ramos.

Navas' rushed clearance found Cervi in space.

Cervi had time, space and João Felix still advanced, and played onside by Sergio Ramos so had a simple ball to create a one-on-one.

João Felix cooly slotted home the goal which won the Class of 2018 it's first Champions League and what I genuinely believe may be my favourite Football Manager moment in more than a decade of playing.

 

For the last time, looking at the quality we were up against.

Development Update

Given the outrageous on-field performance, I have actually paid little attention to attribute development but having documented the first run of this save we can ask ourselves the interesting question - what difference has the rapid advancement to the first team made to the players development?

The answer - not as much as I might have expected.

Here is an overview of current ability and the core attributes we need to develop for our style of play from the same point in time of the original save:

At this point different players would have had varying experiences.

• Geronimo Rulli, Gedson Fernandes and Alex Grimaldo would be similar, first team throughout.
• Xadas, Jota and João Felix would have some solid first team exposure, but nowhere near to the same extent.
• Tiago Dantas, Umaro Embalo and Florentino Luis would have played significantly less, mostly for the U19 or B team.

In comparison to the this time around - each having played first team football for an entire season in the league and Champions League.

So, there's an extra half-star here and there and a bigger jump for João Felix but, interestingly, not as much difference as I might have expected. Attributes are developing a little differently, most likely due to differences in training schedule second time around.

Personally, I'm surprised. Thoughts?

Seems to support the hypothesis about training facilities being the bigger factor with U18 players.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[drigaco]

22 minutos atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Fairytale complete. Quite frankly, I am shocked.

After the devastating withdrawal of Florentino Luis, Jota and Umaro Embalo, we replaced with like-for-like. Trying to maintain as much consistency as possible, even though their absence clearly disrupted the team massively.

What  are the rest of the TI's that don't show in the pic?

[vrbrasa]

10 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Fairytale complete. Quite frankly, I am shocked.

After the devastating withdrawal of Florentino Luis, Jota and Umaro Embalo, we replaced with like-for-like. Trying to maintain as much consistency as possible, even though their absence clearly disrupted the team massively.

The final itself was a fairly dour affair. I've always found Real Madrid's Kroos, Modric, Kovacic midfield possibly the most difficult to play against and this was no different.

We struggled to get a foothold in possession and failed to record a single shot on target in the first half but our pressing and organisation stifled Real Madrid. The midfield diamond particularly effective.

Our goal actually came directly from our pressing. João Felix pressured a sloppy pass back to Sergio Ramos.

Navas' rushed clearance found Cervi in space.

Cervi had time, space and João Felix still advanced, and played onside by Sergio Ramos so had a simple ball to create a one-on-one.

João Felix cooly slotted home the goal which won the Class of 2018 it's first Champions League and what I genuinely believe may be my favourite Football Manager moment in more than a decade of playing.

 

For the last time, looking at the quality we were up against.

Development Update

Given the outrageous on-field performance, I have actually paid little attention to attribute development but having documented the first run of this save we can ask ourselves the interesting question - what difference has the rapid advancement to the first team made to the players development?

The answer - not as much as I might have expected.

Here is an overview of current ability and the core attributes we need to develop for our style of play from the same point in time of the original save:

At this point different players would have had varying experiences.

• Geronimo Rulli, Gedson Fernandes and Alex Grimaldo would be similar, first team throughout.
• Xadas, Jota and João Felix would have some solid first team exposure, but nowhere near to the same extent.
• Tiago Dantas, Umaro Embalo and Florentino Luis would have played significantly less, mostly for the U19 or B team.

In comparison to the this time around - each having played first team football for an entire season in the league and Champions League.

So, there's an extra half-star here and there and a bigger jump for João Felix but, interestingly, not as much difference as I might have expected. Attributes are developing a little differently, most likely due to differences in training schedule second time around.

Personally, I'm surprised. Thoughts?

Seems to support the hypothesis about training facilities being the bigger factor with U18 players.

 

and what is your thoughts about  the highly structured system? 

[zlatanera]

On 25/01/2020 at 13:07, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Development Update

So, there's an extra half-star here and there and a bigger jump for João Felix but, interestingly, not as much difference as I might have expected. Attributes are developing a little differently, most likely due to differences in training schedule second time around.

Personally, I'm surprised. Thoughts?

Seems to support the hypothesis about training facilities being the bigger factor with U18 players.

I would guess that you're probably right that the training for under 18s thing is the main factor - they've moved to make it less game-y in the more recent ones but as you're still playing a game with tutoring possibly its more of a hard and fast rule.

But I also noticed quite a few of those players have the little lrn icon indicating they're being tutored. I don't know how much you've been tracking the personality changes, but could it be that because they're only just now at the end of the season getting the really good personalities their development will then skyrocket afterwards? I'm thinking Embalo and Dantas, being the youngest, would probably be the ones where you could figure out in a 2nd season if this theory has any truth to it, the others already being 18 we wouldn't know. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by zlatanera

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Season 2: Clear Out Complete

Off the back of success last season, we had a big summer transfer window clearing out the pre-existing first team in order to let our new generation take over.

In comparison to last time around, we are prioritising the development of this group significantly over maximising sales revenue so transfer revenue is much lower, but the new generation are a long way ahead in their development.

With our shiny new first team squad numbers, the team now looks like this:

With more promotions from Benfica B and the Under-19s, filling out the squad:

Another major difference is significantly fewer loans, as the outgoing transfers have made space in the first team squad.

We also had a good break and a long pre-season with Portugal deciding against taking many of the squad to the World Cup.

In training, I am looking to add a bit more bite to the squad by training mainly pressing-oriented individual routines.

We started with a nice win over Lyon - who possibly have the next best young squad in Europe at the moment.

Elsewhere, we have been solid at the back and controlling games but struggling for goals.

Introducing the 3-2-4-1

Our main system is going to be the 4-3-3 already shown, but this season I wanted to introduce and start gaining familiarity with a 3-man defence to give us more tactical versatility further down the line.

I experimented a lot with various forms of 3-3-1-3 with limited success (see friendly results!) and eventually settled on a 3-2-4-1 which is actually closely related to the main 4-3-3.

Our primary system is a Guardiola inspired 4-3-3 which is a 2-3-5 in attack, with inverted wingbacks, free 8s and wingers.

In circumstances where the opposition press prevents us gaining control of the midfield, I will drop my midfield deeper:

• Florentino Luis: DM(D) to HB(D) so dropping between the defenders.
• Tiago Dantas: RPM(S) to DLP(S) dropping deeper to collect from defence.
• Xadas: Mez(A) to Maz(S) to connect the deeper midfield with attack.

With our withdrawn midfield offering less attacking threat, our wingers cut inside and we rely on wingbacks for width as a pretty standard 4-3-3.

In the 3-2-4-1 our midfield drops deeper again:

• Florentino Luis drops into defence creating a 3-man defence.
• Tiago Dantas drops into the DM strata
• Xadas stays as a Mez(S)

The risk now is that the midfield becomes disjointed, so I bring Alex Grimaldo and Gedson Fernandes into midfield to support.

• Grimaldo as a left-sided DM(D), linking between the defence and Dantas.
• Gedson Fernandes as a right-sided Mez(A) playing in the space ahead of Dantas and supporting the attack.

Given the midfield now has good supporting numbers centrally, the wingers stay wide, stretching the defence.

The mentality structure now breaks down like this:

11    17    11
   10    15
    6    10
  6    4    7
      10

Very much inspired by the shape Guardiola used occasionally with Bayern.

The highlight so far has been a controlling win away at Atletico Madrid.

This game was won by our Defensive Midfield 2 - Grimaldo and Dantas.

This screenshot shows our usual aggressive press, and in particular:

• The area in red where our attacking midfield 4 occupy no less than 7 Atleti players as they look to play out of defence.
• Their only option is a long ball where we have a 3v2 against their strikers.
• Grimaldo and Dantas are completely alone in the central zone.

The same thing happened in attack:

Dantas and Grimaldo are again in wide open space.

When Dantas receives the ball he is in space, with passing options everywhere:

Dantas ended up completing more than 130 passes during the game, giving us absolute control.

On we go 

[Gegenklaus]

Its a funny thing with Guardiola, Hah? The shape on the ball is almost always 2-3-5 or 3-2-5. But golden rule; 2 players wide, 2 in the half spaces and 1 central. Rest five supports.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[craigcwwe]

Been reading through this thread over the weekend and what a read it was. Best thread I've read on these forums.  Your writing style and the way you break things down is very good. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by craigcwwe

[zlatanera]

This new direction for this thread is really tearing me in multiple directions through inspiration, if that phrase isn't considered an outright assault on the form of the English language. The thread has always made me want to either go back to FM18 to use this Benfica golden generation with the tutoring system, or do it in FM19 where Ruben Dias is a proper BPD (only drawback is the under 23s meaning there are a huge amount of players to handle). But now I keep considering rebooting my own Lyon career thread too, because the squad is so versatile you can go in different directions.

Really interesting tactic, the 3-2-2-3 btw. Do you think you could succeed using it in every game, perhaps once the squad have developed further?

[MadOnion]

I literally have no players on my u23 squad, so the u19s or the B players will automatically be picked by the manager.
At this point if they're good enough, they're old enough, unless they're in the main team being mentored, otherwise they will be on loan if they can get game time or in the B squad ready to be dumped at some point.
I have no interest in any trophies the B team might win, but that seems to be boast the academy reputation of the club (there is still some development on the players, even if you deem them as not needed).

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! love seeing Gedson back in midfield, he's a true superstar as a Mezzala. That is exactly where he belongs 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I apologise for the delay in addressing some of these questions, life's gotten in the way but there have been a couple of really great questions which I wanted to address properly.
 

On 25/01/2020 at 23:23, vrbrasa said:

and what is your thoughts about  the highly structured system? 

I am very impressed. For years now, I have had this style of play at the fluid end of the spectrum which has evolved from the Cruyff 3-4-3, Sacchi, Pep's Barcelona, Bielsa threads and, indeed, the first iteration of this thread. At times, it's come close to my own vision of footballing perfection, but the challenge has always been implementing it. Highly structured goes a long way toward bridging that gap.

Highly structured shape:

• Gives our Central Defenders and Holding Midfielder a more cautious mentality, reducing the level of technical ability required.
• Reduces creative freedom across the team, which reduces the level of Decision making and general football intelligence required.
• Maintains the structure of a 4-3-3, shifting to a 2-3-5 in attack with a midfield playmaker and lots of passing options.

Gaps in mental attributes and the technical aptitude of defensive players are the often the two biggest areas for improvement in a developing team, so this is ideal.

The downside is that reduced creative freedom makes the football more mechanical with less room for individuality, but I think that is appropriate for the skill level of the current squad. This is reflected in a relative lack of goals. We are having lots of 1-0s.

As technical ability and football intelligence improve, with increased game time, we can play with more fluidity and give players more individual autonomy but only when the squad is ready.

It's an interesting comparison to my earlier approach, where I used a totally different style to gradually induct the new players. If I remember rightly, I started out counter attacking, then moved to a balanced 4-4-2 diamond before ultimately taking the plunge. I think this is a much smoother transition.

In the match engine, I notice similarities between this and the way Guardiola's approach with Bayern and Man City has evolved. I'd argue Barcelona played fluid possession football, with Xavi, Messi, Iniesta, Alves etc given a high degree of autonomy within the overall system (although would be interested to play with that calibre of player in a Highly Structured system). In contrast implementing his style of play at Bayern and Man City - both clubs having previously used very different styles - it's more reminiscent of the football I am seeing using Highly Structured, particularly in the first few seasons. Not sure if anyone else is still on FM2018 and following along with a similar style, if so, I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts. Sad this functionality has been removed from FM2019 onwards.

 

On 11/02/2020 at 00:49, zlatanera said:

Really interesting tactic, the 3-2-2-3 btw. Do you think you could succeed using it in every game, perhaps once the squad have developed further?

Actually, no. Or at least not in it's current guise.

The current 3-2-4-1 was - as with any tactic - born out of finding a solution within multiple constraints/factors.

• I wanted to implement a back 3 to increase tactical flexibility within the squad and give Florentino Luis and Victor Bobsin game time at centreback.
• The current ability of the squad, meant I still feel the need to play structured football as they are not yet ready for too much autonomy.
• My own tactical preferences:
  1. I like to create compactness between defence and midfield by having one midfielder assigned the same individual mentality as my centre backs.
  2. I like my playmaker to have as many players as possible ahead of him.
  3. I like my playmaker to play with a positive mentality (neutral as a minimum).

My own tactical preferences mean that my playmaker should be my deepest midfielder, in which case also my holding midfielder; similar to Rijkaard at Ajax/Milan, Guardiola himself at Barcelona or the way we used Dantas in the first iteration of this save.

Highly Structured makes attacking players more attacking, and defensive players more defensive. In a highly structured system, in order to have a deep midfielder on the same mentality as my centre backs (point 1, for compactness) they need to have a Defend duty, in the DM strata.

In this system a DLP(D) has a mentality of 8; making him more cautious and likely to play backwards and sideways passes.

So I have a few options, none optimal:

• Make the team more fluid to increase the mentality of defensive players; potentially beyond the capability of the current squad.
• Play a DLP(D) with a cautious mentality (I have a strong dislike for this).
• Play a DLP(S) either with no holding midfielder; very risky given 2 of my back 3 are learning the role.
• Play a DLP(S) and use another midfielder as my holding midfielder.

As you can see I went for the last option. Sacrifices a man in that key central zone for security and stability at the back and in build up.

As the team develops and becomes more capable of playing fluid football, I could instead use the first option, which would give me an extra man ahead of my playmaker and my playmaker having a positive mentality.

It could remain a 3-2-4-1, switching the DLP to Defend and the DM to Support, or - perhaps - something like this:

But, until then, I think the 3-2-4-1 will remain a common sight. Also potentially my B-Team set up to give young players some game time with a back 3.

EDIT: responding to your comment about every game - also, no. I am trying to make the squad as versatile as possible, ideally able to shift between systems, but given most opposition play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 I think the 4-3-3 variants are likely to remain the most common systems.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[sejo]

Hi guys, very interesting topic! Could I ask about TI and PI for Fm20? Thanks!

[axelmuller]

Tremendous.

Finally I understand why Cleon used Highly Structured in his Art of possession football.

[joeyodonnell]

Long time reader of your threads Ozil, and you've very much opened my eyes to different tactical understandings of FM. Still currently on 18, with my longest save to date (21 years) at Leverkusen.

I was watching a recent TIFO video yesterday, "Barrowcelona: The non league team that plays like Barcelona" and one quote resonated with me and reminded me of your numerous threads.

"If you want to play football, recruit footballers. It's that simple. Then coach them. Teach them. Improve them." 

Always look forward to reading and learning more. 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

The save almost took a very interesting turn, when this happened at international level..

But, sadly, not to be..

Topped off last year's champions league win with a nice Club World Cup win.

 

Haven't got too much of note to say other than we've made it to the first knockout in the Champions League. Some surprise entrants and bigger names missing out..

Next stop, Madrid 

 

[john1]

Should be winnable tie  Are you planning to get FM20 and try something like this on this year version?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ok.. maybe I had a lazy afternoon/evening of FM and flew quite far ahead 

Real Madrid, done..

 

Next up, an ageing Barcelona team.

Not exactly thrilling, but through due to the away goal.

6th place Chelsea in the Final.

Chelsea are still lining up using Conte's famous 3-4-3 set up:

I feel like a bit of a cop out, as I change absolutely nothing.

The squad goes into the final in pretty good shape. Only a few bumps to morale due to (ridiculous) transfer requests; otherwise everyone's had lots of game time, a bit of a rest and is ready to go.

We keep doing exactly what we have been for the past 2 years now, passing and passing and passing. Absolutely controlling the game and coming out 1-0 winners.

The average age of the squad is still extremely crazy. Florentino Luis, Tiago Dantas, João Felix and Umaro Embalo are all winning their second Champions League as teenagers.

I'm not surprised anymore, but I've still never seen anything like this before.

The league was simple, slight improvement on last season; albeit with an improved defence, but still goal shy.

 

Tactically, we are still exactly the same - and will be for the next few seasons. Development-wise, I have a few updates - I'd really like to take a bit more time and do a proper comparison to my previous save.

More thorough update to follow 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[BrickCommo23]

A great save and approach to a career. 

Tried to do something similar on my Arsenal save but I like making statement signings too much! 

Would love to see if you can make this work on FM20 too but appreciate your feelings on the team structure stuff. 

[vrbrasa]

18 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Ok.. maybe I had a lazy afternoon/evening of FM and flew quite far ahead 

Real Madrid, done..

 

Next up, an ageing Barcelona team.

Not exactly thrilling, but through due to the away goal.

6th place Chelsea in the Final.

Chelsea are still lining up using Conte's famous 3-4-3 set up:

I feel like a bit of a cop out, as I change absolutely nothing.

The squad goes into the final in pretty good shape. Only a few bumps to morale due to (ridiculous) transfer requests; otherwise everyone's had lots of game time, a bit of a rest and is ready to go.

We keep doing exactly what we have been for the past 2 years now, passing and passing and passing. Absolutely controlling the game and coming out 1-0 winners.

The average age of the squad is still extremely crazy. Florentino Luis, Tiago Dantas, João Felix and Umaro Embalo are all winning their second Champions League as teenagers.

I'm not surprised anymore, but I've still never seen anything like this before.

The league was simple, slight improvement on last season; albeit with an improved defence, but still goal shy.

 

Tactically, we are still exactly the same - and will be for the next few seasons. Development-wise, I have a few updates - I'd really like to take a bit more time and do a proper comparison to my previous save.

More thorough update to follow 

HI. I see that you change sometimes, a few times (tigth marking, I think is the first time), could talk about that? 

[FranGELP22]

Any plans to move to FM 20? FM 21?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 minutes ago, FranGELP22 said:

Any plans to move to FM 20? FM 21?

I'd love to as I am getting frustrated with the old database but I'll have to see what the tactics creator is looking like.

[Garrlor]

4 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I'd love to as I am getting frustrated with the old database but I'll have to see what the tactics creator is looking like.

Tried it.

Not good. FM18 is way better IMHO. There must be updated databases out there mate.

[vrbrasa]

18 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

I'd love to as I am getting frustrated with the old database but I'll have to see what the tactics creator is looking like.

HI.. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I see you change the TI sometimes, is that a upgrade or it's like a game per game changes? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, vrbrasa said:

HI.. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I see you change the TI sometimes, is that a upgrade or it's like a game per game changes? 

I sometimes try out different things; to see if they'll result in a noticeable improvement. More often than not with some of the TIs people ask about I cannot actually see a difference in the match engine. Really, unless it's something fundamental or something I've explicitly mentioned then I am not massively able to see it.

[vrbrasa]

Em 24/02/2020 em 18:27, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

I sometimes try out different things; to see if they'll result in a noticeable improvement. More often than not with some of the TIs people ask about I cannot actually see a difference in the match engine. Really, unless it's something fundamental or something I've explicitly mentioned then I am not massively able to see it.

So, what is the core TI for you and what are you trying out? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Morning, everybody. Ok, so.. pot of coffee brewed, a bit of chilled out jazz and a free morning for some FM. But first, the more thorough update I have been promising you.

The first major contrast between this save, and my previous, is how settled and consistent the squad is.

The summer transfer window was quiet; with most activity now happening within the club itself.

With no international football, we had a long pre-season which was ample opportunity to really get the squad in order.

Whilst tactically, we continue with the exact same set up. Using some combination of:

I am interested and excited to see how this plays out as the squad develops, as we're really making progress now. Over the last 2 years the play has been phenomenal, but we do need to add goals.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to run a comparison to the earlier save; I remember at this point I had a lot going on and updates became more brief and sporadic. Nevertheless here is the update I provided last time around.
 

Spoiler

 

 

5

 Advanced issues found

▲

 

1

 

 

0

 Advanced issue found

▲

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

The First Team - 2019/2020

 

We entered the season with an average age of less than 21-years old, captained by 22-year old Ruben Dias:

We adopted the 4-1-4-1 that has been employed by the Academy and B Team for the past 2-years, giving some sense of familiarity with the system. The biggest change is probably the shift from a physically dominant team, to a preference for intelligent technical players.

 

The squad developed exceptionally as a group over the course of the season. Training remaining unchanged from the Tactical training from the last 2 years.

Dominance of Portuguese domestic competition became yet more comprehensive.

 

Cementing our status as the most exciting young squad in Europe, dominating an ageing Barcelona team to win the Champions League.

For the sake of actually getting this update out, rather than delaying until I have more time, I am not going to go into the typical in-game analysis of the 4-1-4-1 as it's the same as has been done before, but with more developed players.

Some observations from the season were:

• Excellent possession play, triangles everywhere and naturally dominates games.
• Regularly excellent attacking play in the 2-3-5 shape, however occasionally shut down by more physical midfield blocks.
• Jota (João Felipe) has developed into an electric attacking player with excellent dribbling, flair, agility and acceleration.
• The introduction of Florentino Luis massively improves the balance of the team with his intelligence, work rate and physicality. Covers right back, holding midfield and central midfield.

As you can see, a huge fundamental shift in the makeup of the squad took place; something which happened 1-2 seasons ago in this save and is now thoroughly imbedded.

The main differences tactically are:

• Very Fluid shape meaning significantly more freedom across the team.
  • I do still see this as my preferred long term option - and the next few seasons I intend to play through the transition from Highly Structured possession football, to Very Fluid.
  • For this to happen, I want fully developed Decisions, Anticipation, Vision and Off the Ball developed throughout the entire squad.
• Employing João Felix as a midfielder, this emitting Florentino Luis.
  • Observation on how introducing Florentino Luis adds balance to the team.
• Dantas employed as a sole holding midfielder.
  • I do think this is an option, but not for a couple of seasons.
  • For this to happen I want the entire team to have developed a strong and cohesive press, so he's not isolated defensively.
  • I'd also want Dantas to be fully developed.
• Pinto partnering Dias means two right footed centre backs. This time I've prioritised Victor Bobsin in order to have a right-left foot combination for build up play.
  • Minor, but it's a personal preference.

The squad overview screenshot above is actually from the end of the season. So I've gone back in my save files to get their attributes at the start of 2019/20 (spoiler tags to avoid confusion).

 

Spoiler

Comparing this development with the present save, we can see some interesting observations starting to emerge.

• Rulli is extremely similar and has had an almost identical development path in both saves.
• At centre back:
  • Ruben Dias has also had a very similar development path in both saves so also similar.
  • Alex Pinto has had 2 seasons more playing a rotation role in the first team and is a stronger all round player.
  • Victor Bobsin has played more first team football and is also a stronger all round player.
  • Pedro Alvaro has been hampered by injury in the new save so is more advanced in the older save.
• At wingback:
  • Gedson Fernandes and Alex Grimaldo actually had less competition in the first team squad in the original save and have developed further as a result.
  • This is an interesting observation on the amount of first team football a player can handle.
• In midfield:
  • Florentino Luis has had a 2 seasons more first team football and is a better player, but by less than I would expect.
    • In the earlier save he played a lot at fullback and central midfield, and as a result has marginally better passing, work rate and stamina.
    • This time I've trained him to drop in at centre back, in order to give us the flexibility to play a back 3 and he's developed better defensive and mental attributes.
    • I've actually shifted his training to fullback now as I see him as extremely versatile and could ultimately play DCR (in a 3), IWB(R), DM or MC.
  • Dantas is considerably more advanced in his development after considerably more football.
    • Similar to Florentino Luis is also a more accustomed to a deeper role.
  • Interestingly Xadas is actually streaks ahead in the older save but should have played similar football. Perhaps a random element, not sure.
• In attack:
  • Interestingly Jota developed marginally better with less football in the earlier save. However this time around I have been working on his finishing so he is a different type of player.
  • João Felix is a marginally better player this time around, but there's a clear difference in his development as a midfielder vs attacker.
  • Embalo also doesn't show a clear difference despite two full seasons of first team and Champions League football. Very interesting.

As you can see, it's by no means clear. Some players have had a clear additional 2 years of first team and Champions League football with either marginal or no real difference. Dantas has developed massively as a result of first team football at 16-18, but then Embalo has not.

Personally I'd expected the second save to be considerably more developed; in practice I think it's more developed in most areas, but the difference is more marginal than expected.

The broader squad is noticeably more developed this time around. Luis Pinheiro, Pedro Rodrigues, Nuno Santos, Andre Horta and Gonçalo Oliveira are all starting to look like useful players. As mentioned in the past - these players are some of my favourites. The superstars are all well and good, but I love the solid club players who never complain, happy to rotate, know the club ethos and always do a solid job when called upon. I look forward to Pedro Alvaro joining them.

Going into 2019/20

Something quite exciting this season - which I actually didn't notice last time around - is that the majority of our team have now hit wonderkid status.

The squad is also becoming more tactically versatile, reaching a point where we have lots of different options depending on how a game unfolds.

The Tiago Dantas - Florentino Luis - Gedson Fernandes Rotation

Tiago Dantas is quite simply our playmaker, key player and the personification of our style of play.

Florentino Luis is the calm, intelligent, defensive player who makes everything tick and adds some physicality to the midfield.

Whilst Gedson Fernandes is quick, strong, hard working and extremely versatile.
 

Most commonly, Dantas is given a free-role as a Roaming Playmaker with Florentino Luis covering behind and Gedson Fernandes tucking in as an inverted wingback.

When we are under pressure, Dantas plays a more withdrawn role as a Deep-lying Playmaker so Florentino Luis drops between the centre backs as a Half-Back and Gedson Fernandes pushes forward to provide width as a wingback.

Over the next few years when we play a more fluid style, Dantas is going to have the potential to drop deeper again to the DM strata. This would open up space for Gedson Fernandes to move into midfield, in a more expansive role and Florentino Luis to replace him as inverted wingback.

This remains on the drawing board for now - because a Highly Structured shape gives a DLP(D) a pretty reserved mentality and I really dislike the backwards and sideways passes from a playmaker with a low mentality.

So we need to wait until the team is ready to start playing with a more fluid shape to make the role more expansive.

Nevertheless we can start with getting Florentino Luis some game time at right back and Dantas at DM so we are ready.

The Umaro Embalo - João Felix - Jota attacking trio

Pretty versatile, but I'm thinking about options.

At the moment we can either stretch the defence with wingers or cut inside and allow the wingbacks to overlap. All have worked on their pressing and finishing quite a bit.

Xadas can push forward to join João Felix in a front 2 with Jota and Embalo playing from MR/L as well.

Not sure where I am going with this but would like more goals from them.

Also just a couple of extras. Pinto is looking good and pushing Dias hard for a spot. Expect to see a lot more of him this year.
 

Finally, newgen Braima Alves is already at wonderkid status; assume due to his awesome physicals, so is another to watch. Played at DL and MCL in the U19s last year.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Razor940]

Em 23/02/2020 em 20:06, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

 

Do you normally give PIs to the players? And I would like to understand what your position on why giving a IF stay wide or narrow. Another thing I would like to know is what you think about the mezzala and IF? Shouldn't they cancell each other? At least I usually see them in the same channel and both don't do much.

[Guest]

Amazing staff here. One question : How you are measure player mentality according to TI, PI and role?