Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hmm. I am either misunderstanding what you're saying or in near total disagreement 

The main parts where our understandings differ are:

43 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

1. I don't think structured necessarily equals disciplined and fluid always equals expressive.
2. Structured, to me, means that there are clear and separable units on the team, where you can easily say that this player's job is to defend and defend only and that players sole job is to attack the opponent's box.

1. Not necessarily, but - all other things being equal - Fluid systems will always be more expressive than Structured.
2. That is only half of Team Shape. Team shape is:
   • Compactness - more fluid shapes placing more emphasis on team mentality; more structured shapes placing more emphasis on individual duty.
   • Creative freedom

Team Shape, however, is only one way to achieve compactness. There is also:

• Duties
• TIs - exploit the middle, overlap etc.

For example, this is the mentality distribution of a team with Highly Structured, Control and lots of Support duties:

        12
13              13
    11      11
        6
14   6      6   14
        6

In the instance of Guardiola's Free 8s - a Mezzala (Attack) would have a mentality of 16 and a free role in this system and a Roaming Playmaker would have 12, a free role and the freedom of being a playmaker.

I think that another part of this conversation is subjective differences in the way we see certain sides; for example I would certainly not see Simeone's Atleti as an example of fluid football at all, nor would I see that Arsenal side as only having one attacking player!

That's always going to happen though, two people can watch the same game and see it totally differently 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Still getting some absolutely derogatory transfer bids..

[MadOnion]

[Enzo_Francescoli]

38 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hmm. I am either misunderstanding what you're saying or in near total disagreement 

I think our disagreements come in large part of the fact that I didn't play FM18, so I have little understanding of what team shape used to mean. My opinions on this are rather based on absolutes, sort of, meaning how I see it in real life football.

For example, that mentality distribution you mentioned, should never result in a highly structered team in my opinion. And that is because there are two CB's and a holder, but then the rest of players are relatively close to each other in their moderate, middle of the park mentality, meaning they will be responsible for both defend and attack. Have those fullbacks on 6 and the front three on 16? That is structured.

45 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

nor would I see that Arsenal side as only having one attacking player

Ashley Cole was my example for this. A CWB(s) on an attacking team mentality is an attacking player. Add overlap or focus play, and he's essentially a winger. A FB(s) on cautious team mentality is a defensive player. Duty and Team fluidity unchanged.

The Bergkamp role, even on a support duty, will be quite attacking on the pitch, if your system is set up in a way to encourage that and player has the attributes and traits for it.

What I was trying to say is you don't need more that one attack duty to play like Arsenal did back in the day.

And you don't have to be more expressive to play fluid football (it helps, though, I agree about that). Simeone, in my opinion, is fluid on defense first and foremost, but his attacks have also been traditionally based on high tempo shorter passing and not on bombing forward in bunches with the others staying back.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

I think our disagreements come in large part of the fact that I didn't play FM18, so I have little understanding of what team shape used to mean. My opinions on this are rather based on absolutes, sort of, meaning how I see it in real life football.

Ah, fair enough. Explains how we're talking in such different languages! 

I think we could go back and forth all day on our interpretations of different sides but what I am ultimately trying to say is that having team mentality, team shape and duty to create a style of play gives you more control over your tactics than team mentality and duty alone.

Interestingly, your conception of Team Shape is - probably should say 'was', these days - an extremely common one and ultimately why the feature confused people and was removed.

I do understand where this is coming from but the lack of functionality takes away a lot of my enjoyment of the game; which is ultimately what it's all about.

Maybe one day they'll improve it, but until then I'll be enjoying my Benfica save in ol' Football Manager 2018! 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

having team mentality, team shape and duty to create a style of play gives you more control over your tactics than team mentality and duty alone.

true, but I'm hell-bent on it being more realistic this way.

Anyways, this has been an interesting conversation, with the added benefit of bringing back memories of that great Arsenal team. I have also gone through most of this thread in the meantime. It has been an excellent read and you accomplishments with this save are staggering. Cheers!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

46 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

true, but I'm hell-bent on it being more realistic this way.

Anyways, this has been an interesting conversation, with the added benefit of bringing back memories of that great Arsenal team. I have also gone through most of this thread in the meantime. It has been an excellent read and you accomplishments with this save are staggering. Cheers!

 You too. Cheers 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Big decisions to be made over the course of the pre-season.

In goal, I think that Fernandez has just about overtaken Rulli now.

Florentino Luis might be my first choice partner for Pinto full time now.

Another big decision I am trying to make is Xadas vs Valentim in midfield.

And finally Umaro Embalo had a mixed season last year and faces intense competition from Leao.

These decisions are easily the toughest I have had to make in this save.

Thoughts, comments & ideas are welcome!

Edited June 10, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Spiegel]

Squad looks in great shape! You're at a similar point to my United save where it becomes hard to decide who to move on and who to blood. Here's my two cents.

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

In goal, I think that Fernandez has just about overtaken Rulli now.

Core attributes look good, and he's been in great form by the looks of it. Debate would be whether to maintain the rotation and, if he's still tutor-able, get him to Model Professional before cashing in on Rulli, or go for it now. Is Rulli attracting interest?

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Florentino Luis might be my first choice partner for Pinto full time now.

Would agree with that - also allows you to switch to that W-M without burning a substitution. 

Decision then is whether you need 5 CBs in your squad. Alvaro looks like he's your next best guy, but he's also the oldest. Theo Hernandes is also a backup option. Worth loaning out Tralhao for a year and assess next year?

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Another big decision I am trying to make is Xadas vs Valentim in midfield.

I'd personally keep both for this year at least, then reassess. 

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

And finally Umaro Embalo had a mixed season last year and faces intense competition from Leao.

Is Leao playing on the right for you now? De Dominicis looks like he's getting ludicrous numbers for you aswell. Is he a prospect? 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Spiegel

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Thank you for the note of pragmatism. Always aware at points like this that it's not my strong point.

 

10 hours ago, Spiegel said:

Core attributes look good, and he's been in great form by the looks of it. Debate would be whether to maintain the rotation and, if he's still tutor-able, get him to Model Professional before cashing in on Rulli, or go for it now. Is Rulli attracting interest?

Yea, he's has 1-2 shakey moments which were now nearly a year ago but otherwise he's been excellent. I also love his anticipation, decisions and vision for a goalkeeper! I think he's the first goalkeeper really developing from 16 with the heavy tactical training and I like it.

Would be sad to lose Rulli but Liverpool are interested and I would estimate getting £40-50m for him. At 31 he's got years left as a goalkeeper.

I don't think I am going to split hairs about the Professional vs Model Professional at this point. He might even have it but not yet old enough as I believe there's an age cap on that one.
 

10 hours ago, Spiegel said:

Decision then is whether you need 5 CBs in your squad. Alvaro looks like he's your next best guy, but he's also the oldest. Theo Hernandes is also a backup option. Worth loaning out Tralhao for a year and assess next year?

I agree across the board.

• Alvaro is the best all-round centre back and about to turn 24 so extremely valuable at the club.
• Guimaraes is technically brilliant but slow; he's very intelligent so I am not sure if that's a problem.
• Tralhao is another solid all-rounder.

One option is a 3-man defence variant as they're all very capable of that; other option is to loan one out.

Theo Hernandez was giving me grief about a contract and I didn't think he justified being the highest paid player at the club so I agreed an early deal with PSG for £54m.

 

10 hours ago, Spiegel said:

I'd personally keep both for this year at least, then reassess. 

You're right. I am glad I didn't make an impulse decision on that one.
 

10 hours ago, Spiegel said:

Is Leao playing on the right for you now? De Dominicis looks like he's getting ludicrous numbers for you aswell. Is he a prospect? 

Leao is a natural number 10 so one option is to change shape but he's also been great in the Mezzala and Inside Forward roles, less so as a False 9 but that judgement comes from a year ago.

Fitting Leao and Valentim in somewhere are the big questions.

De Dominicis is an electric winger; doing really well at inverted winger but he is a bit limited in terms of position. He signed at 18 so only had 2 seasons with him but he really wants to play as a winger and that's it, not even on the other flank. My gut feeling is that he'll rack up assists but not quite break the first team when you look at what Jota, Felix, Embalo, Leao etc offer.

Having slept on I think there is space to rotate Xadas with Valentim and Leao with Embalo for a year and see who comes out on top. There's a European Championship in the summer and plenty of football to be played, both can get close to 30 games.

I'm getting some £100m+ offers this year, but not for the players I want to sell. Desperately need to open up spaces in the squad.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ignore the roles - as I have not yet thought it through - but something like this is an option for the squad outside the first team.

It's absolute overkill - to the extent that I almost feel guilty about it.

1. Putting these guys out against weaker opposition almost feels mean 
2. It doesn't leave any space for break through players.
   • The B Team won the league last year, but there's nobody outstanding.
   • Next year, there is.

But it does mean I can still get a lot of players sufficient game time, if the transfer market is still flat.

I don't rotate much, but this would be:

• All domestic cups (around 15 games per season)
• Champions League group stage when already qualified for knockouts (typically 2 games)
• Rotated in for approx. 10 league games per season
• Substitutes

Also means we'd probably have the strongest bench we've ever had.

[MadOnion]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I don't think I am going to split hairs about the Professional vs Model Professional at this point. He might even have it but not yet old enough as I believe there's an age cap on that one.

I think in FM18 players only become Model Professionals after the age of 23.

Regarding squad building and since this is a Youth development challenge, I'd keep the squad as young as possible and move players on after a certain age (26/27?), unless there's sentiment towards certain players. I can see you have an emotional attachment towards Dantas, Felix, Jota and Pinto.

Do you pay attention to scout reports? I'm sure there are a few players with a higher potential than the ones in your XI. Maybe this is the time to freshen up things? Most of them are fully tutored anyway right? So as long as the levels of Anticipation and Decisions are high, everything else should fit in nicely.

Sir Alex Ferguson used to freshen things up every 4-5 years, including his assistant managers, with the core (class of 92) intact in order to keep things interesting.

[Mike_Cardinal]

On 10/06/2020 at 10:57, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I agree about the Support duties indirectly effecting a style of play but strongly disagree about the realism; and the bigger issue is the lack of functionality.

Take Pep Guardiola's recent Manchester City and Bayern Munich teams as an example. It's pretty clear that they play extremely disciplined possession football; both teams very much play to his instruction, but at the same time everyone contributes to the team as a collective.

In Football Manager 2018 this would be very simple:

1. Control mentality
2. Lots of Support duties
3. Highly Structured team shape

You'd have extremely disciplined, possession football where everyone contributes to the team collective.

In Football Manager 2020 you'd use a Positive team mentality and then:

• EITHER select Support duties, giving you a Very Fluid shape.. which doesn't do anything anyway. Maybe say "Be more Disciplined".
  • I have no idea how this would play, but it's extremely messy.
• OR select a mixture of Attack, Defend or Support duties to get Highly Structured but then your players no longer have players playing as a collective unit; attackers would attack, defenders would defend etc.
  • I think this would get you a very different style of play.
• OR.. vertical tiki taka! 

To your point about Attackers and Defenders in a Fluid system; take Arsenal's 'Invincibles' as an example. Clearly a free-flowing, attacking team with Henry, Pires, Cole and Bergkamp making an extremely fluid attack counter-balanced by Gilberto Silva as an out and out defensive midfielder even known as the 'Invisible Wall'. He'd be an MC(D) in a Fluid, Attacking system; this would give him a cautious mentality (9 in old terms) and he'd hold position in midfield.

The 'Makelele' role in the Galacticos would be a similar example.

 

This entire thread is brilliant, but I was particularly interested in your 'Highly Structured' 4-3-3, using a more disciplined passing game with the younger players. This immediately made think of my attempts to incorporate positional play with lower league teams in FM20, and how affording less creative freedom might be a better idea with more limited players.

After playing around with the excellent Mentality Calculator (https://theresonlyoneball.com/2020/05/22/an-individual-player-mentality-calculator-for-football-manager-2020/), I struck upon the following setup as a potential solution - using a Cautious team mentality with lots of Attack duties, rather than a Positive team mentality with lots of Support duties:

Team Mentality			Cautious
Approach Play Left			Overlap Left
Approach Play Right			Overlap right
Focus the Play			Focus play through the middle
			ST - At
			Positive
IF(L) - At						IF(R) - At
Positive						Positive
		CM - At		CM - At
		Positive		Positive
			DM - De
			Defensive
DL - At/Su		CD - De		CD - De		DR - At/Su
Positive		Defensive		Defensive		Positive
			GK - De
			Defensive

Given that this setup uses 4 Defend Duties, 7 Attack Duties and nobody on Support(!), I'm pretty confident it would give us a 'Highly Structured' label on FM20, although I haven't tested it in-game yet. 

The mentality calculator also seems to think that the Full Backs would still have a 'Positive' mentality with a Support duty, which might influence whether the game labels the tactic as 'Highly Structured'. Either way, the consensus seems to be that this feature is largely cosmetic now.

In terms of how this could be set up for positional play, you could use the Striker as a Trequartista, or maybe a Deep Lying Forward on Attack, so that they link up with the midfield. Alternatively, you drop him into Attacking Midfield, and he would have a Positive mentality as a Shadow Striker, which I think was your interpretation of Pep's Barca.

The central midfielders could play as either a Mezzala or Advanced Playmaker on Attack - or possibly a combination of the two.

You need to play the wingers as Inside Forwards (specifically) on Attack duty. Otherwise, you will be stuck with either a winger with a 'Balanced' mentality (if you use Overlap and a winger on another Attack duty), or a full back on 'Balanced' (if you use them on Attack duty without the Overlap). Still, with a 'Stay Wider' instruction, I think the Inside Forwards should maintain width in the early phases, before going for goal in the final third.

By comparison, you would have plenty of options to play with at full back, such as either Inverted Wing Backs or more traditional Wing Backs/Complete Wing Backs on either a Support or Attack duty, depending on your preferred combinations.

Finally, the defensive diamond should give a solid base to build from, and means that you aren't asking too much of your central defenders in terms of mentality. You could always use a more aggressive Sweeper Keeper, as well.

The other significant factor on FM19/20 is how much you can customise the Defensive Line, Line of Engagement and Pressing Urgency - I'm confident that an aggressive approach could be counter-balanced quite nicely with the Cautious mentality, so we get a patient, controlled, but progressive approach to build-up play.

Now I just need to test it out on the game! 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Mike_Cardinal

[ryandormer]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I always find myself coming back to this thread when I start struggling in a save!

On the 4-3-3 formation, do you ask your IFs to sit narrow, as one of the videos above shows them playing really narrow, even on attacking mentality?

Also, do you find there to be a significant difference between a WBs and a CWBs?

Edited June 11, 2020 by ryandormer

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, MadOnion said:

Regarding squad building and since this is a Youth development challenge, I'd keep the squad as young as possible and move players on after a certain age (26/27?), unless there's sentiment towards certain players. I can see you have an emotional attachment towards Dantas, Felix, Jota and Pinto.

Do you pay attention to scout reports? I'm sure there are a few players with a higher potential than the ones in your XI. Maybe this is the time to freshen up things? Most of them are fully tutored anyway right? So as long as the levels of Anticipation and Decisions are high, everything else should fit in nicely.

Sir Alex Ferguson used to freshen things up every 4-5 years, including his assistant managers, with the core (class of 92) intact in order to keep things interesting.

It's certainly a youth focused save, but I am not treating it as a "youth challenge" as such; certainly not setting any age restrictions on the squad.

Something I am more interested in is building a self-sustaining football club.

• The academy is right at the centre of the club
  • The academy supplies the vast majority of players for the first team, saving on transfer fees.
  • Players who are signed externally are brought in at a young age and developed.
  • The academy will produce additional players surplus to the first team generating additional income.
• Homegrown players mean we can maintain a sensible wage structure, however I do intend to be competitive with the major leagues of Europe.
• The Estadio da Luz is now 80,000 capacity and we're filling it for big games, and breaking attendance records each year.
• We've been doing summer tours to countries like US, Japan, China to try to generate additional forms of income.

Interested to see where that goes and to what extent. At the moment, we make a loss all year and then recoup it all multiple times over in transfer revenue each summer.

Depending on where that goes, I am debating where to take the save but am really looking at the next 2026 World Cup as a potential crossroads.

With Leao, Costa, Valentim and a decent looking group in the academy we have enough to keep things fresh until then.

At that point, the team will be at an absolute peak and need to decide whether more can be done at Benfica or if it's time to disperse around Europe!

 

2 hours ago, Mike_Cardinal said:

This entire thread is brilliant, but I was particularly interested in your 'Highly Structured' 4-3-3, using a more disciplined passing game with the younger players. This immediately made think of my attempts to incorporate positional play with lower league teams in FM20, and how affording less creative freedom might be a better idea with more limited players.

After playing around with the excellent Mentality Calculator (https://theresonlyoneball.com/2020/05/22/an-individual-player-mentality-calculator-for-football-manager-2020/), I struck upon the following setup as a potential solution - using a Cautious team mentality with lots of Attack duties, rather than a Positive team mentality with lots of Support duties:

Team Mentality			Cautious
Approach Play Left			Overlap Left
Approach Play Right			Overlap right
Focus the Play			Focus play through the middle
			ST - At
			Positive
IF(L) - At						IF(R) - At
Positive						Positive
		CM - At		CM - At
		Positive		Positive
			DM - De
			Defensive
DL - At		CD - De		CD - De		DR - At
Positive		Defensive		Defensive		Positive
			GK - De
			Defensive

Given that this setup uses 4 Defend Duties, 7 Attack Duties and nobody on Support(!), I'm pretty confident it would give us a 'Highly Structured' label on FM20, although I haven't tested it in-game yet. 

The mentality calculator also seems to think that the Full Backs would still have a 'Positive' mentality with a Support duty, which might influence whether the game labels the tactic as 'Highly Structured'. Either way, the consensus seems to be that this feature is largely cosmetic now.

In terms of how this could be set up for positional play, you could use the Striker as a Trequartista, or maybe a Deep Lying Forward on Attack, so that they link up with the midfield. Alternatively, you drop him into Attacking Midfield, and he would have a Positive mentality as a Shadow Striker, which I think was your interpretation of Pep's Barca.

The central midfielders could play as either a Mezzala or Advanced Playmaker on Attack - or possibly a combination of the two.

You need to play the wingers as Inside Forwards (specifically) on Attack duty. Otherwise, you will be stuck with either a winger with a 'Balanced' mentality (if you use Overlap and a winger on another Attack duty), or a full back on 'Balanced' (if you use them on Attack duty without the Overlap). Still, with a 'Stay Wider' instruction, I think the Inside Forwards should maintain width in the early phases, before going for goal in the final third.

By comparison, you would have plenty of options to play with at full back, such as either Inverted Wing Backs or more traditional Wing Backs/Complete Wing Backs on either a Support or Attack duty, depending on your preferred combinations.

Finally, the defensive diamond should give a solid base to build from, and means that you aren't asking too much of your central defenders in terms of mentality. You could always use a more aggressive Sweeper Keeper, as well.

The other significant factor on FM19/20 is how much you can customise the Defensive Line, Line of Engagement and Pressing Urgency - I'm confident that an aggressive approach could be counter-balanced quite nicely with the Cautious mentality, so we get a patient, controlled, but progressive approach to build-up play.

Now I just need to test it out on the game! 

This is brilliant. Interested to see where you take it.

I've had similar ideas but never done it. In FM 2018 I've built a few tactics which are either Defensive or Counter Attacking with lots of Attack duties but never followed through. Athletico Madrid and Arsenal are the two I have considered.

 

1 hour ago, ryandormer said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I always find myself coming back to this thread when I start struggling in a save!

On the 4-3-3 formation, do you ask your IFs to sit narrow, as one of the videos above shows them playing really narrow, even on attacking mentality?

Also, do you find there to be a significant difference between a WBs and a CWBs?

Yes, sit narrower and get forward.

Honestly, no I cannot see a difference between a "complete" wingback at all. It fits with the "Total Football" narrative I have been interested in and it's not doing any harm but my inclination is no stronger than that 

[ryandormer]

43 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, sit narrower and get forward.

Honestly, no I cannot see a difference between a "complete" wingback at all. It fits with the "Total Football" narrative I have been interested in and it's not doing any harm but my inclination is no stronger than that 

Thanks for the response! I might try using both and see if I can spot any difference. My confusion with the CWB role was the hardcoded 'stay wider' and 'roam from position'. I don't really see where the CWB will roam to if he is also supposed to stay on the flank!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Thanks for the response! I might try using both and see if I can spot any difference. My confusion with the CWB role was the hardcoded 'stay wider' and 'roam from position'. I don't really see where the CWB will roam to if he is also supposed to stay on the flank!

Yea bit of a double-bind, that one  wouldn't lose sleep over it. If you're watching matches and never noticing an observable difference then it's not worth concerning yourself with.

[Deego619]

Currently having my own stab at a Benfica project in FM20. Some of the stars of the FM18 crop are still present and developing well after season one, including...

Dantas

Florentino Luis

Ruben Dias

Currently turning down mega money bids for all 3 (Chelsea recently went over the 160m barrier for Dias).

As you can see, I'm also trying to have a bit of fun here with the free signing of Edison Cavani on a one year deal (great tutor!) amongst others such as Gabriel Barbosa and Moussa Dembele after making a profit of £100m so far in the season 2 transfer window. No point doing youth development for a position where I have no youth to develop right now.

The tactic is a joy to watch in the FM20 ME. Dantas just dominates every game he is in. Defensively, we only conceded 6 goals from open play all season.

Not the most min-max performance you'll see as Benfica, I even lost the Portuguese cup final to Porto, but I gave a lot of game time to youth players coming through such as Mile Svilar and Pedro Alvaro. The only team I couldn't beat domestically were Braga, with Benfica old boy Horta just dancing around my defence.

Some notable youth who will be in the first team squad getting game time this season.

Almada - Been very good for a few editions of FM at this stage.

Nascimento - Will deputize for Dantas as a regista. Has all the right attributes to dominate games.

Camara - Will rotate with Almada for CAM, this role in my system is very much "Oscar at Chelsea". Run around a bit, be a pivot and chip in with a goal/assist every now and again.

Filipe Cruz - A flying right back with all the right PPMs already.

Rafael Brito - Unsure if I want him to develop as a Half Back or Center Half, leaning towards the latter.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by JDeeguain

[MadOnion]

I think Florentino Luis was a bit offended by O-zil's comments about his contribution on the opposition half (to be fair to O-zil, the goal was from a set-piece )

The Squad DNA

One for the Dantas' fan club. We're in 2026 and he just had his best season yet.

Edited June 11, 2020 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Wow, I am only a few minutes into this but this is ringing extremely true in relation to this thread..

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 11/06/2020 at 20:59, JDeeguain said:

Currently having my own stab at a Benfica project in FM20. Some of the stars of the FM18 crop are still present and developing well after season one, including...

Dantas

Florentino Luis

Ruben Dias

Currently turning down mega money bids for all 3 (Chelsea recently went over the 160m barrier for Dias).

As you can see, I'm also trying to have a bit of fun here with the free signing of Edison Cavani on a one year deal (great tutor!) amongst others such as Gabriel Barbosa and Moussa Dembele after making a profit of £100m so far in the season 2 transfer window. No point doing youth development for a position where I have no youth to develop right now.

The tactic is a joy to watch in the FM20 ME. Dantas just dominates every game he is in. Defensively, we only conceded 6 goals from open play all season.

Not the most min-max performance you'll see as Benfica, I even lost the Portuguese cup final to Porto, but I gave a lot of game time to youth players coming through such as Mile Svilar and Pedro Alvaro. The only team I couldn't beat domestically were Braga, with Benfica old boy Horta just dancing around my defence.

Some notable youth who will be in the first team squad getting game time this season.

Almada - Been very good for a few editions of FM at this stage.

Nascimento - Will deputize for Dantas as a regista. Has all the right attributes to dominate games.

Camara - Will rotate with Almada for CAM, this role in my system is very much "Oscar at Chelsea". Run around a bit, be a pivot and chip in with a goal/assist every now and again.

Filipe Cruz - A flying right back with all the right PPMs already.

Rafael Brito - Unsure if I want him to develop as a Half Back or Center Half, leaning towards the latter.

 

Nice work! Great to see a new generation coming through 

 

On 11/06/2020 at 22:53, MadOnion said:

I think Florentino Luis was a bit offended by O-zil's comments about his contribution on the opposition half (to be fair to O-zil, the goal was from a set-piece )

The Squad DNA

One for the Dantas' fan club. We're in 2026 and he just had his best season yet.

Brilliant. Glad to be of service! 

[Ivan787]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!I'm very impressed about your results buy I also think that you choose a club that ideally suits this approach.

In your opinion what premier League team would you choose to start a similar project?

[anxiousAnarchist]

11 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Wow, I am only a few minutes into this but this is ringing extremely true in relation to this thread..

 

 

Yes! Pop's work at implementing a cohesive team culture and consistent style of play is legendary, and a huge inspiration. Particularly the aspect of team culture I believe the Spurs have taken further than any other club/franchise I'm aware of, across any sport. For some related interesting reading, this is a good article emphasizing Pop's hands on man management skills:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26524600/secret-team-dinners-built-spurs-dynasty

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by anxiousAnarchist

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, anxiousAnarchist said:

Yes! Pop's work at implementing a cohesive team culture and consistent style of play is legendary, and a huge inspiration. Particularly the aspect of team culture I believe the Spurs have taken further than any other club/franchise I'm aware of, across any sport. For some related interesting reading, this is a good article emphasizing Pop's hands on man management skills:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26524600/secret-team-dinners-built-spurs-dynasty

 

Thank you for sharing. Really cool story 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

19 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!I'm very impressed about your results buy I also think that you choose a club that ideally suits this approach.

In your opinion what premier League team would you choose to start a similar project?

Yes, absolutely. I had zero affiliation with Benfica before this - actually always having used Ajax in similar saves - but I'd seen this generation from their academy blossom in another save and decided to give them a go myself. Now I am a Benfica fan for life! 

This is an interesting question. It was actually discussed earlier in the thread and some tried it in the Premier League but I assume they didn't get traction.

The size of the clubs, scale of the competition and TV deal mean that the Premier League would be the highest potential of all leagues to attempt. However conversely, managerial churn, misbalanced squads and impatient boards mean that it's difficult.

There's certainly nobody as immediately well prepared as Benfica, with a crop of players ready so you're reliant either on scouting or the chance of generating some good newgens.

Liverpool and Manchester United have the most potential due to the size of their fan bases, judging on the growth I have seen at Benfica I think both of those could be filling 100,000+ seater stadiums within a few years. In terms of playing style, Manchester City and - as much as it pains me to say it - Tottenham are closest. Leicester are not far off, actually.

My saves are mostly reasonably short and I am more interested in creating a style of football, than the challenge of taking a small club but I understand most prefer bigger challenges.

Given that nobody is particularly close, that gives a lot of freedom to pick just about any club. I'd look at fan bases and growth potential so clubs like Newcastle United, Leeds United, Aston Villa, Wolves, Bristol City, Cardiff City.

[Garrlor]

So you can take Manchester United forward, I planned to make my team youth focused and I would give chances to the young lads coming through but in the end the pressure of needing to win win win meant that I started buying players to fit in. Its a bloody hard thing to do, especially in FM if you are trying a big club. In FM18 United are actually a very good candidate for free flowing football. Matic as a DLP(D), Herrera as a CM(Su) and Pogba as a Mezz(At) is a good midfield 3. Mata can play on the right wing cutting in, or Lingaard as a more direct winger. Sanchez/Martial as IF on the left. Rashford is a great CF but plays so differently to someone like Felix, Lukaku offers you muscle and power while in defence Lindelof and Bailly offer you the perfect combination of silk and steel. Damn, now I want to try a new United save .

A club like Newcastle would be great, as you could stay relevant in the league while building that squad up to the level they need to be at. They will give you time to really work on a playing style while you work on the youth setup. They also have a large fan base so becoming more sustainable isn't a huge issue.

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Garrlor said:

So you can take Manchester United forward, I planned to make my team youth focused and I would give chances to the young lads coming through but in the end the pressure of needing to win win win meant that I started buying players to fit in. Its a bloody hard thing to do, especially in FM if you are trying a big club. In FM18 United are actually a very good candidate for free flowing football. Matic as a DLP(D), Herrera as a CM(Su) and Pogba as a Mezz(At) is a good midfield 3. Mata can play on the right wing cutting in, or Lingaard as a more direct winger. Sanchez/Martial as IF on the left. Rashford is a great CF but plays so differently to someone like Felix, Lukaku offers you muscle and power while in defence Lindelof and Bailly offer you the perfect combination of silk and steel. Damn, now I want to try a new United save .

A club like Newcastle would be great, as you could stay relevant in the league while building that squad up to the level they need to be at. They will give you time to really work on a playing style while you work on the youth setup. They also have a large fan base so becoming more sustainable isn't a huge issue.

Yes, the balance is extremely difficult. I'd need to look at the attributes in more detail but I know from my PSG save that Herrera is a great all-rounder. I actually nearly signed Matic as a centre back once, but I forget what put me off. Fred and Sanchez both fit the style well but aren't used properly. Rashford, Martial and Pogba are potential world beaters.

[Garrlor]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, the balance is extremely difficult. I'd need to look at the attributes in more detail but I know from my PSG save that Herrera is a great all-rounder. I actually nearly signed Matic as a centre back once, but I forget what put me off. Fred and Sanchez both fit the style well but aren't used properly. Rashford, Martial and Pogba are potential world beaters.

Probably because he is slow off the mark to be honest. Posistionaly he is excellent. Pogba has the dwells on the ball trait which makes it that much harder to play a fluid game, but Herrera is a great all round player. Hard working, intelligent and technically capable. No real weaknesses to his game other than maybe his finishing but no real areas of outstanding strength either. Pretty much a good central midfielder for anything. In FM18 Fred is still at Shaktar and Sanchez is outstanding, with Martial taking over as he comes to the end of his career.

[addiction-od]

On 12/06/2020 at 01:29, JDeeguain said:

Currently having my own stab at a Benfica project in FM20. Some of the stars of the FM18 crop are still present and developing well after season one, including...

Dantas

Florentino Luis

Ruben Dias

Currently turning down mega money bids for all 3 (Chelsea recently went over the 160m barrier for Dias).

As you can see, I'm also trying to have a bit of fun here with the free signing of Edison Cavani on a one year deal (great tutor!) amongst others such as Gabriel Barbosa and Moussa Dembele after making a profit of £100m so far in the season 2 transfer window. No point doing youth development for a position where I have no youth to develop right now.

The tactic is a joy to watch in the FM20 ME. Dantas just dominates every game he is in. Defensively, we only conceded 6 goals from open play all season.

Not the most min-max performance you'll see as Benfica, I even lost the Portuguese cup final to Porto, but I gave a lot of game time to youth players coming through such as Mile Svilar and Pedro Alvaro. The only team I couldn't beat domestically were Braga, with Benfica old boy Horta just dancing around my defence.

Some notable youth who will be in the first team squad getting game time this season.

Almada - Been very good for a few editions of FM at this stage.

Nascimento - Will deputize for Dantas as a regista. Has all the right attributes to dominate games.

Camara - Will rotate with Almada for CAM, this role in my system is very much "Oscar at Chelsea". Run around a bit, be a pivot and chip in with a goal/assist every now and again.

Filipe Cruz - A flying right back with all the right PPMs already.

Rafael Brito - Unsure if I want him to develop as a Half Back or Center Half, leaning towards the latter.

 

Hi, mate. Just wanted to check if the PI are in default? I've tried the following tactic just using TI and slight PI changes to the wingers and AM and the football played is out of this world. I do seem to concede a lot though. 

[Deego619]

6 hours ago, addiction-od said:

Hi, mate. Just wanted to check if the PI are in default? I've tried the following tactic just using TI and slight PI changes to the wingers and AM and the football played is out of this world. I do seem to concede a lot though. 

IF/S gets further forward, AM roams that's it.

Since this screenshot I've added overlap left to keep the left side compact.

If you want to shore up at the back just reduce D-Line to default, regroup when you win the ball and you should keep the ball more. Bear in mind this tactic is designed for a league where everyone is going to park the bus and my defenders are capable in most instances of defending balls over the top. If you're playing with a mid-upper table or below I reckon this tactic might be a bit too gung-ho. 

 

[TheJanitor]

On 14/06/2020 at 13:53, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Liverpool and Manchester United have the most potential due to the size of their fan bases, judging on the growth I have seen at Benfica I think both of those could be filling 100,000+ seater stadiums within a few years. In terms of playing style, Manchester City and - as much as it pains me to say it - Tottenham are closest. Leicester are not far off, actually.

Can't speak for FM20, but on 19 they are a great team to try this out. The first team is very strong, versatile, and mostly in their mid-20s, so you could use your money to sign young players and improve coaching and facilities withouth the need to make big signings for a while. There are also plenty of interesting players in the U23 and on loan like Grujic, Wilson, Kane, Millar, Woodburn, Jones, Hoever, Lewis. Not all of them would develop into world class players, but all could end up as good squad players. TAA and Gomez are amongst the best potentials in their position and veterans like Milner, Henderson and Lallana are excellent tutors.

I reckon Arsenal would be quite good for this as well. They always seem to have tons of talent in their U23 and U19.

[Ivan787]

33 minuti fa, TheJanitor ha scritto:

Can't speak for FM20, but on 19 they are a great team to try this out. The first team is very strong, versatile, and mostly in their mid-20s, so you could use your money to sign young players and improve coaching and facilities withouth the need to make big signings for a while. There are also plenty of interesting players in the U23 and on loan like Grujic, Wilson, Kane, Millar, Woodburn, Jones, Hoever, Lewis. Not all of them would develop into world class players, but all could end up as good squad players. TAA and Gomez are amongst the best potentials in their position and veterans like Milner, Henderson and Lallana are excellent tutors.

I reckon Arsenal would be quite good for this as well. They always seem to have tons of talent in their U23 and U19.

I agree with you about Liverpool, but I think that in FM20 it is "too easy" to manage Liverpool. They have a very strong squad, lots of money...Perhaps Arsenal could be a great solution because they have good balance, good money potential, and a squad to rebuild around youngsters.

[TheJanitor]

14 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I agree with you about Liverpool, but I think that in FM20 it is "too easy" to manage Liverpool. They have a very strong squad, lots of money...Perhaps Arsenal could be a great solution because they have good balance, good money potential, and a squad to rebuild around youngsters.

Of course winning stuff with Liverpool is easy, but it allows to create your style of football and develop young players in a relaxed save. You don't have to worry much about results so you could just focus on developing young players. Chelsea also falls under  the same category. Good squad and tons of money as well as some interesting young players.

Outside of the Prem, I always wanted to do a RB Leipzig save where you can only sign players from the other RB clubs. Again you have lots of money and one of the best squads in the division, but you added an extra challenge to makes stuff more interesting.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I agree with you about Liverpool, but I think that in FM20 it is "too easy" to manage Liverpool. They have a very strong squad, lots of money...Perhaps Arsenal could be a great solution because they have good balance, good money potential, and a squad to rebuild around youngsters.

Too easy has never stopped me before!  Personally I actually think people under-estimate how challenging it is to create and thoroughly implement a particular style of play.

Even clubs with a seemingly ready-made team will often take 2-3 seasons to develop to the level I am looking for. You can add exponentially to that is you've got to build a squad from scratch, gain promotions or build the academy and wait for newgens.

I know that most of my saves have a 3-5 season lifespan and there's a huge attrition rate during that first season which really limits what I can do. I think this is the same for a lot of people, hence the number of 'introduction' threads and blogs on a particular style that don't go anywhere.

Never the less, I totally understand that 3-5 seasons with a club where you win the league right away may not interest people. Depending on how good you are, I'd still put Arsenal in that category; pretty sure most people can win the league with an Ozil, Aubameyang, Lacazette attack (but good luck plugging that defence) 

Ideal might be someone outside of the Champions League, where you're really not going to win the league for 2-3 years to have some balance. The difficulty is that those clubs are in such a mess you're building from scratch and then you're adding to the time frames.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

Can't speak for FM20, but on 19 they are a great team to try this out. The first team is very strong, versatile, and mostly in their mid-20s, so you could use your money to sign young players and improve coaching and facilities withouth the need to make big signings for a while. There are also plenty of interesting players in the U23 and on loan like Grujic, Wilson, Kane, Millar, Woodburn, Jones, Hoever, Lewis. Not all of them would develop into world class players, but all could end up as good squad players. TAA and Gomez are amongst the best potentials in their position and veterans like Milner, Henderson and Lallana are excellent tutors.

I reckon Arsenal would be quite good for this as well. They always seem to have tons of talent in their U23 and U19.

I do like that Liverpool have a very clear tactical identity as well.

[TheJanitor]

56 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Too easy has never stopped me before!  Personally I actually think people under-estimate how challenging it is to create and thoroughly implement a particular style of play.

Exactly. It's challenging but in a more relaxed way. I find that you could spend ages in the game without progressing much, just refining.

Football Manager is to be enjoyed like fine wine 

[Deego619]

An amazing run has seen Benfica crowned champions of Europe. All but Cavani of the starting XI in the final are still under 24 years of age

Another domestic clean sweep including an invincible season. All the more sweet when you see the level of rotation that has taken place in the squad for the purposes of youth development.

 

As you can see by the playing time happiness, I may have over done it at times as Grimaldo and Dantas were beginning to worry about their place in the team  

We added two key signings in January, Phil Foden and Maxine Gonalons. The former is self explanatory, and at £60m, I'll have a complete technical footballer for the next decade who will easily double in value. Gonalons was transfer listed by Roma, and as Samaris wanted to go to Saudi Arabia, for £2,5m Gonalons is a great stop gap cover for Luis and still has good physicals for his age. Also a decent option for tutoring. I feel a lot of people on here sleep on buying veterans for this purpose, if their physicals are still usable they can offer a lot for your youth development when used in your second XI. Oh and I've still made a net profit of £50m this season  

 

Now finally, onto the Youth Development. We've seen some amazing development this year of some of our key talents:

 

All benefiting from regularly featuring in domestic games. Particularly happy with the development of Nascimento who is growing into the true successor for Dantas should an irresistible bid come in from his many suitors.

The next crop will be playing their trade for Benfica B next season, however unfortunate luck with regens (including my Director of Football somehow being responsible for it?) has only produced one talent I can see first team football for in the near future:

Sobral should be an amazing inside forward in the future. His personality could do with some changing though.

We're still playing the 4-2-3-1 which we've really grown in to over time. I'm particularly happy with how my Inside Forward is the primary source of goals, with Dembele finsihing the season as top scorer with 24 goals in 39 appearances. Considering he could have taken 9 penalties (he has the same penalty stats as Cavani) which may have easily taken him over the 30 goal mark, I'm really happy that I've finally got this role working on FM.

Our creative outlets are based on the right hand side of the pitch to feed our direct attackers (Grimaldo, Dembele).

Our equalizer in the Champions League semi final showcases a typical example of how Dembele is fed and acts as our true number 9:

Foden cuts inside from a wide position on the right, and uses his strong foot to whip the ball into the far post, where Cavani has already occupied the defence, for Dembele to get the slip on the right back.

Unsure of how to proceed with next season. Cavani will likely need replacing as his physicals begin to decline further, which makes me curious to try something potentially very fun:

Thiago Almada is an accomplished striker, and he has some interesting PPMs such as:

• Comes Deep to get the ball
• Likes ball played in to feet.
• Runs with ball through center.
• Moves into channels
• Curls ball

He currently plays AM/s and does a good job of keeping play ticking. But since we are now treble winners and may see instances in Europe of teams adapting to us and packing defences, how great would it be for this dynamic, unpredicatable player to be buzzing around into space with Foden and Barbosa sending the defence into 6s and 7s before Dembele pops up to slot home? 

I've never enjoyed how the F9/s plays on FM, the player just seems to pick up the ball from deep and run like Messi circa 2012, but unfortunately 99% of players are not Messi circa 2012 and they just end up losing the ball.

The Trequartista is an attack duty yes, but the role description fits everything I need. Almada's decisions isn't optimal, but the PPMs unpredictability and his other attributes make up for this in my opinion. 

In addition, I foresee us being absolutely dominant in possession this way.

Exciting times ahead, a youth development save is so fun

[Deego619]

I guess I should also add this as an update to my previous post, what a monstrosity of a tournament this will be . Played in June in Qatar, with players hovering around 80% condition for most of it. Not a clue what the qualification criteria is, but it's essentially a CL 2.0.

Edited June 21, 2020 by JDeeguain

[AndersAas]

Is it the latest official database update for FM18 you have based your game on @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!? 18.3 I think it was?

Edited June 22, 2020 by AndersAas

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Very nice team there @JDeeguain 

Is Nascimento from the academy? Looks brilliant 

 

On 22/06/2020 at 13:48, AndersAas said:

Is it the latest official database update for FM18 you have based your game on @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!? 18.3 I think it was?

Yea pretty sure it's the official January update 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hope everyone's well, work and life are starting to kick back into gear so a bit less time for FM really, but I have made it through the summer and decided a brief update would get the proverbial ball moving again!

I did actually play well into the season, but then inadvertently saved my Arsenal game over the save-file, but luckily I keep backups.

Pre-Season 2023/24

No international competition and no urgent transfer activity meant this pre-season was probably the most non-eventful to date. Keeping hold of key players, holding off offering mega-contracts and managing a money-spinning pre-season tour of China and Japan were the highlights.

 

• Rulli to Liverpool was the only first team change.
  • Rulli has been a superb servant to the club, but it was simply time for Juan Manuel Fernandez to take over as club No. 1 probably for the next decade.
• Luis Pinheiro unfortunately forced his way out, with unreasonable wage demands.
• Francisco Trincao, Rodrigo De Dominicis and Theo Hernandez all received good bids (particularly in the context of the weak transfer market at the moment)
• I wasn't satisfied with replacement options for Luis Pinheiro within the squad so brought in Simon Sandoval who I nearly signed a few years ago, but decided not to, then regreted.

20 years old, first choice for Chile, 100+ top level league appearances in Brazil and still rated as top potential for this squad, he looks pretty good.

The first team is otherwise unchanged.

Overload?

This is really evolution rather than revolution at this point, and quite possibly nobody other than me is going to be interested, but the next logical tactical progression for me was to attempt a fully-collective overload.

Over the past 2-seasons we have played the best football I have ever seen using:

1. Very Fluid combined with Attacking mentality and Support duties.
2. then adding some Attack duties to that.

Increasing the entire side to Overload puts every support player, to the same individual mentality as an Attack duty in the earlier system.

 

        15
17              17
    17      17
        15
17  15      15  17
        15

Close to full-throttle. High-intensity pressing combined with a rapid, aggressive, high-tempo passing game.

Early signs are encouraging, but I will reserve judgement until the season has played out.

Also experimenting with a more direct 4-2-4 shape, in the cups and bringing youth players through.

This suits Leão really well and also creates space for our most exciting recent academy product.

Wonderfully named live-wire winger from Brazil, Elvis 

There are a couple of other new faces:

• Konan looks a promising backup Goalkeeper who has been with the club at youth level since signing from ASEC.
• Vitor Silva is a stop gap solution, he's a re-trained winger and the best all-rounder I have available but ultimately I don't think he has potential to make the cut.

 

Otherwise, it's a very familiar group at this point looking to complete a hat-trick of Champions Leagues and take on the European Championship.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

How to break down a deep double-pivot, by Umaro Embalo 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Leão is also starting to look unstoppable.

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Starting to feel like I have found a place for Leão, sitting in the pocket and exploiting the space resulting from the creativity and movement of João Felix.

He's added an extra dynamic in attack in a kind of 4-2-Leão-3 in a free role between midfield and attack.

[04texag]

Which of the tactics are you using to this effect? You've posted a few and even one dedicated to exploring him. Is that the one?

Edited July 5, 2020 by 04texag
Grammar

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Which of the tactics are you using to this effect? You've posted a few and even one dedicated to exploring him. Is that the one?

I am starting to settle on an inverted version of the 4-2-4 I was had as a second system at the start of the season.

As mentioned, still watching and yet to make my mind up but signs are very positive.

The attack is phenomenal and I am interested to see how the midfield holds up when competition heats up in Europe. I've always preferred a 3-man midfield with a single pivot - as explained many times earlier in the thread - and this is only Dantas and Costa in midfield, but actually Florentino Luis in defence, Leão and João Felix up front and - to an extend - Gedson Fernandes and Braima Alves on the flanks - means I actually have 5 world class central midfielders on the field, plus another two very good ones.

[04texag]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! That lineup looks sick. I'd love to fire up that save in FM18 just to watch a full game on full play. See the beauty of the passing and movement. Looks great on the tactics screen!

[howard moon]

On 05/07/2020 at 12:39, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I am starting to settle on an inverted version of the 4-2-4 I was had as a second system at the start of the season.

As mentioned, still watching and yet to make my mind up but signs are very positive.

The attack is phenomenal and I am interested to see how the midfield holds up when competition heats up in Europe. I've always preferred a 3-man midfield with a single pivot - as explained many times earlier in the thread - and this is only Dantas and Costa in midfield, but actually Florentino Luis in defence, Leão and João Felix up front and - to an extend - Gedson Fernandes and Braima Alves on the flanks - means I actually have 5 world class central midfielders on the field, plus another two very good ones.

I look at that front 6 - the formation and roles, the types of player you're using, and think, "Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez".

Granted that team didn't play very fluid/overload 

[joeyodonnell]

Hey Ozil, Just a quick Q in relation to how you've changed and adopted your philosophies over time. 

If you think back to your early saves - IIRC - you were quite ardent on the fact that there should only be one playmaker, and when using Very Fluid there should be quite a limited number of these 'specalized roles'. Now if we take a look at your systems you're operating with multiple playmakers (*gasps*) and numerous specalized positions.

Curious the reasons behind your shift .. Was it just a matter of experimentation and loosening ones rules? Thanks :  D 

 

[axelmuller]

Braima Alves has to be the best regen I have ever seen in Football Manager. What a force of nature.