Defending the Wings

[LCFCEaves31]

Hi All

After lots of help from the people on this forum last time for FM17, I have just loaded up FM18.

Started a game Reading, tactic is below:

               GK(d)

FB(s) CB(d) BPD(d) FB(a)

        DLP(s) BWM(d)

W(a)         AP(s)       IF(s)

                DLF(s)

Shouts are 'Play out from Defence' and 'Press More' - Reasons... Play out from Defence because in the Friendlies there were too many long balls from the back when not really under much pressure, so I wanted them to use the DLP or FB's more to keep the ball until a better opportunity to strike came. Press More, because it seemed to easy for their CB's to ping 'Beckham like' balls over the top of back line with all the time in the world. 

Reading (on latest transfer update) don't have the greatest squad, but we have started OK, won 3, drawn 2 and lost 1. Both draws came from us conceding in the 94th... frustrating. We did also have a 6-1 victory at Preston, but all the goals (including that one) that I have conceded are very similar, so wanted some advice. 

High percentage of goals are coming from with inside our penalty area, nearly every time via a cross from the wing. I did have this problem in the beginning of my Wolfsburg save on FM17, but I persevered whilst I built my squad up with much better defenders (better aggression, anticipation, marking, bravery etc) and we eventually became rock solid at the back, keeping clean sheet records etc. 

Do I have to do the same here do you think? My full backs lose a lot of headers at the back posts when crosses come in, or the centre forward just stands in-between my two CB's and passes in from less than 6 yards. My FB's are also left one on one a lot of the time, because I don't want (nor do I have the players for those positions) to drop my attacking wide players back a notch. I did this actually in two games and still conceded from crosses in the last minutes so it didn't help.

I thought maybe deploying the FB's as WB's instead, as it might put them closer to the opposition players out wide to try and stop the crosses from coming in?

Just some general pointers would be great.

[Hootieleece]

How about giving your IF and W individual orders to mark the opposing wingers? They don't have to be great at it just closing down a bit to slow down the crosses.

I usually play a 4-2-3-1 Wide and give those orders along with one CB marking the Striker...

I also usually use Drop Deeper or as Deep as allowed for Defensive line to stop the over the Top balls (which I loathe)

Doing both with shouts of Close Down more and stop GK short passing should tidy up your defensive issues.  It isn't perfect but it allows team to win using this formation.

Also you might want to give the DLP-S orders to Hold position and let BWM-D roam

[kpsia518]

13 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Hi All

After lots of help from the people on this forum last time for FM17, I have just loaded up FM18.

Started a game Reading, tactic is below:

               GK(d)

FB(s) CB(d) BPD(d) FB(a)

        DLP(s) BWM(d)

W(a)         AP(s)       IF(s)

                DLF(s)

Shouts are 'Play out from Defence' and 'Press More' - Reasons... Play out from Defence because in the Friendlies there were too many long balls from the back when not really under much pressure, so I wanted them to use the DLP or FB's more to keep the ball until a better opportunity to strike came. Press More, because it seemed to easy for their CB's to ping 'Beckham like' balls over the top of back line with all the time in the world. 

Reading (on latest transfer update) don't have the greatest squad, but we have started OK, won 3, drawn 2 and lost 1. Both draws came from us conceding in the 94th... frustrating. We did also have a 6-1 victory at Preston, but all the goals (including that one) that I have conceded are very similar, so wanted some advice. 

High percentage of goals are coming from with inside our penalty area, nearly every time via a cross from the wing. I did have this problem in the beginning of my Wolfsburg save on FM17, but I persevered whilst I built my squad up with much better defenders (better aggression, anticipation, marking, bravery etc) and we eventually became rock solid at the back, keeping clean sheet records etc. 

Do I have to do the same here do you think? My full backs lose a lot of headers at the back posts when crosses come in, or the centre forward just stands in-between my two CB's and passes in from less than 6 yards. My FB's are also left one on one a lot of the time, because I don't want (nor do I have the players for those positions) to drop my attacking wide players back a notch. I did this actually in two games and still conceded from crosses in the last minutes so it didn't help.

I thought maybe deploying the FB's as WB's instead, as it might put them closer to the opposition players out wide to try and stop the crosses from coming in?

Just some general pointers would be great.

 

Quote

 

Where are your strengths? If they attack down the Wings there are two ways of dealing with it.

1. You have fast pacey Fullbacks. Play Wider, close down their Winger and try to block the cross.

2. You have strong, tall Centrebacks. Play Narrower, crowd the box and try to win the ball from the cross.

 

[JavierChicharito14]

I found instructing full back close down less ,ease off tackles helps

[summatsupeer]

You didn't mention your mentality or shape.

General advice: 4231 is a very attacking formation with 4 players high up the field.  Your CM pair need to break up attacks early and you need good defenders since they don't have any cover really, especially on the flanks.  If you don't have the defensive strength then you need to consider how you can give them more help, 4411, 433, 433 DM Wide etc.

On the attack side, how does that W-A combine? Everyone else is taking fewer risks, is the DLF-S in position to exploit space in the back line if he draws a defender out?  Who's in the box for a cross before the opposition get back and organized?  Who does the AP have to play his risky passes often to except the W-A?

[kpsia518]

9 hours ago, JavierChicharito14 said:

I found instructing full back close down less ,ease off tackles helps

 

yes,some thing like it.

its hard to explain with out video.

press but don't tackled,hold up the opponent with ball,the key is just watch but don't make the  tackled.

no tackle = no space.

 

so when FB meet the AI winger,hold them up but don't make tackle

 

 

[LCFCEaves31]

On 18/08/2018 at 09:57, summatsupeer said:

You didn't mention your mentality or shape.

General advice: 4231 is a very attacking formation with 4 players high up the field.  Your CM pair need to break up attacks early and you need good defenders since they don't have any cover really, especially on the flanks.  If you don't have the defensive strength then you need to consider how you can give them more help, 4411, 433, 433 DM Wide etc.

On the attack side, how does that W-A combine? Everyone else is taking fewer risks, is the DLF-S in position to exploit space in the back line if he draws a defender out?  Who's in the box for a cross before the opposition get back and organized?  Who does the AP have to play his risky passes often to except the W-A?

Hi. Sorry, yes we are just using Standard/Fluid at the moment. 

I do need to create a second tactic, but find myself limited to change too much based on the players I have. Although I do like 4231, it almost felt like I had little choice with the players I have started with at Reading. The only other formation I have trained on so far is 41221.

With regards to the roles, the IF is instructed to get further forward so he also often offers another option in the attacking 3rd. My striker is only on DLF (s) for now as I don't have anyone good enough to play as CF (s)... I have always (so far) found IF CF and W work fine as there is normally enough movement and options when a deep player is on the ball. Sometimes in the past when it has looked a bit rigid, I gave them the creative freedom shout and it worked... 
What would you suggest?

On 17/08/2018 at 16:50, Hootieleece said:

How about giving your IF and W individual orders to mark the opposing wingers? They don't have to be great at it just closing down a bit to slow down the crosses.

I usually play a 4-2-3-1 Wide and give those orders along with one CB marking the Striker...

I also usually use Drop Deeper or as Deep as allowed for Defensive line to stop the over the Top balls (which I loathe)

Doing both with shouts of Close Down more and stop GK short passing should tidy up your defensive issues.  It isn't perfect but it allows team to win using this formation.

Also you might want to give the DLP-S orders to Hold position and let BWM-D roam

Thanks. Since asking wingers to man mark, although they obviously can't always help out (just lost possession high up and being countered) it has helped. We have seen less crosses into the box and kept 3 clean sheets in the last 4 games.

One of your points however regarding dropping deeper, you then say close down more... wouldn't it make this much more difficult, having to close but the the team in general are a lot deeper?

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Hi. Sorry, yes we are just using Standard/Fluid at the moment. 

I do need to create a second tactic, but find myself limited to change too much based on the players I have. Although I do like 4231, it almost felt like I had little choice with the players I have started with at Reading. The only other formation I have trained on so far is 41221.

With regards to the roles, the IF is instructed to get further forward so he also often offers another option in the attacking 3rd. My striker is only on DLF (s) for now as I don't have anyone good enough to play as CF (s)... I have always (so far) found IF CF and W work fine as there is normally enough movement and options when a deep player is on the ball. Sometimes in the past when it has looked a bit rigid, I gave them the creative freedom shout and it worked... 
What would you suggest?

A CF-S isn't just a better DLF, it will change how your tactic plays.  Why is it a support duty at all?  IF-S + AP-S both looking to play through balls to....?  Why not have the IF be on attack duty so his focus is more on taking risks with his runs? 

There should be specific reasons for using a formation and where it gives up space defensively, if you can't deal with where it gives up space then not changing it is likely just through stubbornness.  Yes you can try man marking instructions or role/duty changes but that's changing many other things when really two simple changes can be made and the attacking play won't look that much different.  Most "4231" teams in RL actually defend in more of a 4411 so why shouldn't we do so in FM? Leaving "wide forwards" up field should be a tactical choice where the pros out weigh the cons, if they don't then why use them?  I'm playing a Control + Structured tactic with two WM-A who are more IF-A type players and they help my FBs a lot even though they are very attacking and not natural ML+MR players.  If you need them to get deeper to help defend then IW-A + W-A in ML+MR.  If a player can play Winger in AMR he can do so in MR.  If a player can play IF in AML he can play as a IW in ML.  Yes the position maybe unfamiliar but they will learn it and the decision penalty is minor. 

[LCFCEaves31]

31 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

A CF-S isn't just a better DLF, it will change how your tactic plays.  Why is it a support duty at all?  IF-S + AP-S both looking to play through balls to....?  Why not have the IF be on attack duty so his focus is more on taking risks with his runs? 

There should be specific reasons for using a formation and where it gives up space defensively, if you can't deal with where it gives up space then not changing it is likely just through stubbornness.  Yes you can try man marking instructions or role/duty changes but that's changing many other things when really two simple changes can be made and the attacking play won't look that much different.  Most "4231" teams in RL actually defend in more of a 4411 so why shouldn't we do so in FM? Leaving "wide forwards" up field should be a tactical choice where the pros out weigh the cons, if they don't then why use them?  I'm playing a Control + Structured tactic with two WM-A who are more IF-A type players and they help my FBs a lot even though they are very attacking and not natural ML+MR players.  If you need them to get deeper to help defend then IW-A + W-A in ML+MR.  If a player can play Winger in AMR he can do so in MR.  If a player can play IF in AML he can play as a IW in ML.  Yes the position maybe unfamiliar but they will learn it and the decision penalty is minor. 

The first sentence... had them on attack duty in the past and he was just being easily marked out of the game, never available for a pass, so dropped him to support and added PI of get further forward. It seems to work. 

The goal scoring wasn't necessarily the issue I was having, nor possession, it was conceding too many goals from crosses. 

Ok thanks for the help. I need to experiment a bit more with formations and roles, but just used what I was familiar with in first season on FM18 to get my bearings. 

[Hootieleece]

5 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Hi. Sorry, yes we are just using Standard/Fluid at the moment. 

I do need to create a second tactic, but find myself limited to change too much based on the players I have. Although I do like 4231, it almost felt like I had little choice with the players I have started with at Reading. The only other formation I have trained on so far is 41221.

With regards to the roles, the IF is instructed to get further forward so he also often offers another option in the attacking 3rd. My striker is only on DLF (s) for now as I don't have anyone good enough to play as CF (s)... I have always (so far) found IF CF and W work fine as there is normally enough movement and options when a deep player is on the ball. Sometimes in the past when it has looked a bit rigid, I gave them the creative freedom shout and it worked... 
What would you suggest?

Thanks. Since asking wingers to man mark, although they obviously can't always help out (just lost possession high up and being countered) it has helped. We have seen less crosses into the box and kept 3 clean sheets in the last 4 games.

One of your points however regarding dropping deeper, you then say close down more... wouldn't it make this much more difficult, having to close but the the team in general are a lot deeper?

I use both those shouts combined because I hate my defensive line to far upfield and beaten by long balls. Also I think it helps draw out an AI team that is "parking the bus" against me. The Idea is that we set up shop a little farther back and each player closes down the nearest opponent a bit more often.

Once I started making wingers with my wingers the AI started the over the top balls from their CD or Fullbacks so this is a reaction to that. I still get beaten by the occasional longball or cross but not often.

My system is based on using Standard/Flexible and I wanted my team to do what AI does to my wingers.....(2 men marking and closing down)

 

My FM Management style is Mourinho-esque with a Wenger non adapbility to change of tactic. Basically I play with the 4-2-3-1 Wide and Grindout results. 

[summatsupeer]

I just like to keep things simple, but if it works it works  

I would recommend trying 4411, maybe try it in a game your winning and see how it affects things. With the same duties, as close roles as possible and the same instructions then I doubt you'll notice a difference in the attacking third.  When you have the ball in your own defensive third they might be a bit deeper but as the ball moves forward I think they'll take up similar positions.   IW-S doesn't have Cross Less Often or More Risky Passes like IF-S, up to you if you add them.  W-A in MR should be identical to AMR except takes a little longer to get up field since he will be deeper more often.

[LCFCEaves31]

18 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I just like to keep things simple, but if it works it works  

I would recommend trying 4411, maybe try it in a game your winning and see how it affects things. With the same duties, as close roles as possible and the same instructions then I doubt you'll notice a difference in the attacking third.  When you have the ball in your own defensive third they might be a bit deeper but as the ball moves forward I think they'll take up similar positions.   IW-S doesn't have Cross Less Often or More Risky Passes like IF-S, up to you if you add them.  W-A in MR should be identical to AMR except takes a little longer to get up field since he will be deeper more often.

Ok thank you

[Snorks]

On 18/08/2018 at 03:50, Hootieleece said:

How about giving your IF and W individual orders to mark the opposing wingers? They don't have to be great at it just closing down a bit to slow down the crosses.

 

I often just add the 'Mark Tighter' PI to my wide forwards, I don;t necessarily want them tracking all the way back with the wingers, but they will pick up marauding opposition FBs. If you specify a player or positoin for them to mark they will charge all over the park lookingfor that player - if you just say to 'Mark Tighter' they will pick up the nearest runner and track back with them.

[Jean0987654321]

For me, I usually play a much narrower system so crosses are a bit tough to deal with but I tend to use Carrileros to help my WIngbacks out when defending the wings in order to prevent the crosses from coming in.

 

As for your system, OP. Your FBs might need help defending the crosses. I'd say  pull the wingers back into the midfield strata