Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[davehanson]

48 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Thats funny mate

Now show how your goals were scored, set pieces ? Free kicks ? Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all.

In fact, i can achieve 900 passes in a game mate, but that means none of my player wants to do a key pass, just passing around. Like i said, show me how that 2 goals were scored.

I honestly think you need to go away and re-evaluate what you think you know about the game. You are coming across as very rude and condescending. If someone shows you something that you don't believe is correct or if I am being honest, that you can't achieve, you start throwing accusations around.

I would seriously suggest you have a look at Herne's thread. There is a video in there showing how a goal was scored. It certainly wasn't a set piece.

Again, as I said in a few posts above, the information you are putting across here is just wrong 'Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all'

Herne has produced a whole thread on the subject, why don't you try to read it and see what you can learn from it? He has shown it can be done. I don't play the game the same way that he does, but it has certainly given me a few ideas I want to try out next season.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

Thats funny mate

Now show how your goals were scored, set pieces ? Free kicks ? Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all.

I'm playing as West Ham first season, hardly world class, and a variety of Mentalities including Positive along with (always) a high defensive line - which is anything but no risk - and I never get "slaughtered" as you put it.  In fact I'm currently top of the league and leading the stats on possession, passes and goals scored.  I've also conceded the fewest number of goals.  The largest single type of assist I have is from through balls, goals from crosses make up less than a third and set piece goals are few and far between.

I've linked videos of the types of goals I regularly see in my matches along with lots of screenshots of other stats and explanations of how things work in the thread you keep being pointed towards.  Take a look.

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, kurupted said:

Thats funny mate

Now show how your goals were scored, set pieces ? Free kicks ? Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all.

In fact, i can achieve 900 passes in a game mate, but that means none of my player wants to do a key pass, just passing around. Like i said, show me how that 2 goals were scored.

Follow his great "hot" thread on a possession-based 4141dm wide system, and you'll see (and hopefully learn a lot of useful stuff)   A really great thread for anyone who wants to play effective and efficient possession football 

[Mitja]

On 30/01/2019 at 08:52, herne79 said:

I'm playing as West Ham first season, hardly world class, and a variety of Mentalities including Positive along with (always) a high defensive line - which is anything but no risk - and I never get "slaughtered" as you put it.  In fact I'm currently top of the league and leading the stats on possession, passes and goals scored.  I've also conceded the fewest number of goals.  The largest single type of assist I have is from through balls, goals from crosses make up less than a third and set piece goals are few and far between.

I've linked videos of the types of goals I regularly see in my matches along with lots of screenshots of other stats and explanations of how things work in the thread you keep being pointed towards.  Take a look.

Hey please dont get me wrong, i have read your thread and well done honestly. Indeed you managed to prove what you wanted.

At the same time you also managed to prove how massivly weak and unlogical the AI tactics are. Leading or winning the PL with WHU in first season should be next to impossible if we want this game to be fun and challenging, dont you agree? Or winning the possession battle against City. This implies there is something very wrong with how tactics vs player quality and team cohesion is implemented into the game. I have shown in many different threads how defensive AI vs attacking AI games produce very weird looking football all backed up by statistics, like defensive teams outpassing elite clubs or crossing issues where attacking AI makes 100+ crosses.

We know that human managers can find the way to adapt tactics to suit the game and current ME version but in a game like fm where AI is ''everething" that provides the challenge its weird to see such important part of the game not being improved, i think it got much worse compared to fm17 for example. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Mitja

[herne79]

4 hours ago, Mitja said:

Leading or winning the PL with WHU in first season should be next to impossible if we want this game to be fun and challenging, dont you agree?

Challenging?  Sure (and it is).  Plenty of people find it challenging to win the EPL with Man Utd, Arsenal or even Man City, let alone West Ham.

Fun?  People find fun in the game in many different ways.  For a lot it's fun to win the EPL with the smallest club possible using so-called exploit tactics.  For others it's fun to spend years in the fifth tier winning absolutely nothing.  I'm glad we have a game which allows such variety .

I agree with the rest of your post though.  The AI managers - perhaps even just the top ones - don't always play with tactical systems we'd usually associate with them and is an area for improvement I feel.

[kurupted]

Em 30/01/2019 em 01:36, davehanson disse:

I honestly think you need to go away and re-evaluate what you think you know about the game. You are coming across as very rude and condescending. If someone shows you something that you don't believe is correct or if I am being honest, that you can't achieve, you start throwing accusations around.

I would seriously suggest you have a look at Herne's thread. There is a video in there showing how a goal was scored. It certainly wasn't a set piece.

Again, as I said in a few posts above, the information you are putting across here is just wrong 'Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all'

Herne has produced a whole thread on the subject, why don't you try to read it and see what you can learn from it? He has shown it can be done. I don't play the game the same way that he does, but it has certainly given me a few ideas I want to try out next season.

I will explain some things to you, cause i think you a bit lost in here.

First of all, in this thread, we are discussing GUARDIOLA'S PHILOSOPHY, we aren't discussing how you can get 900 passes with some specific roles and mentalitys, again, we are talking about GUARDIOLA'S PHILOSOPHY, everybody knows you can change roles in order to get possession, but i will explain something next.

I guess you started playing FM 2 weeks ago, but i will be very clear in my explanaton.

Possession-based tactic rests on 2 principles: LOW RISK; SLOW PLAY, and what this means in FM terms ? This means that, in order to achieve 800 or 900 passes in a game, that means you are playing  a LOW RISK MENTALITY, despite you have a Fullback or Winger in Attack Duty and a low mentality, you aren't playing a possession tactic, cause a role on Attack Duty is willing to TAKE MORE RISKS. I explain in another way.

In FM terms, playing a possession base tactic you need: Low risk mentality (cautious, defensive maybe), with a combination with roles that can support each other (RPM, BBM, DLP-D bla bla bla); you need to slow down the play. With this, in FM terms, comes 2 things, i bet you didnt even used a Possession tactic, but i have, many, and i know what im talking about, you can have 75% possession, 800 passes but you will sacrifice  1 thing, and this i know for sure and EVERYBODY knows: Clear Cut Changes. Why ? Cause no one in your team is willing to take a risk, and if there are 1, probably he couldn't do nothing.

I will get into my final point, cause again, you are a bit lost in here, instead of talking of me, you should reconsider what you know about FM mate. In the title of this topic there is: Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation. We aren't discussing how you can get 800 and 900 passes, we are discussing GUARDIOLA'S PHILOSOPHY, not possession based tactic that can be achieved in many ways but dont resemble at all Manchester City playstyle!

Edited January 31, 2019 by kurupted

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I guess you started playing FM 2 weeks ago, but i will be very clear in my explanaton.

If you carry on being rude I will do something about it.  Remain civil.  You are coming across as arrogant, patronising and rude.  Also, stop using capital letters.  It's the online equivalent of shouting and against forum rules.

14 minutes ago, kurupted said:

First of all, in this thread, we are discussing GUARDIOLA'S PHILOSOPHY,

You are correct, except you started making statements about how you will get "slaughtered" by using a high line and so on.  People are disagreeing with that statement and giving you evidence to back that up.

15 minutes ago, kurupted said:

In FM terms, playing a possession base tactic you need: Low risk mentality (cautious, defensive maybe)

Again, this is incorrect.  You can use cautious/defensive, but you can also use other mentalities.  Again, people are pointing you towards evidence which demonstrates this.

So, if you wish to carry on discussing - in a constructive manner - Guardiola's playstyle in FM, you're welcome to.  If, on the other hand, you want to continue to shout and be rude, you'll get an infraction and ban from me for being anti-social https://community.sigames.com/topic/215363-infractions-warnings-and-the-banning-system/.  Please alter your posting style, I won't warn you again.

If you have a problem with that, feel free to PM me.

@davehanson No need for you to react please.

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, herne79 disse:

If you carry on being rude I will do something about it.  Remain civil.  You are coming across as arrogant, patronising and rude.  Also, stop using capital letters.  It's the online equivalent of shouting and against forum rules.

You are correct, except you started making statements about how you will get "slaughtered" by using a high line and so on.  People are disagreeing with that statement and giving you evidence to back that up.

Again, this is incorrect.  You can use cautious/defensive, but you can also use other mentalities.  Again, people are pointing you towards evidence which demonstrates this.

So, if you wish to carry on discussing - in a constructive manner - Guardiola's playstyle in FM, you're welcome to.  If, on the other hand, you want to continue to shout and be rude, you'll get an infraction and ban from me for being anti-social https://community.sigames.com/topic/215363-infractions-warnings-and-the-banning-system/.  Please alter your posting style, I won't warn you again.

If you have a problem with that, feel free to PM me.

@davehanson No need for you to react please.

You dont really get do you ?

I didnt said you could get good results with a high defensive line, or a great number of passes, i didn't said you couldn't do that you certain roles. What i said was Guardiola's style of play isn't what you guys are saying.

900 passes ? Cool, many support roles, playing narrow, short passes, congratz, you will have 800 passes, not ask yourself, is that how guardiola plays ? The other guy said look at Herne's thread, i have seen that thread a long time ago, he wasn't the first one who made a thread like that (just to remember), and i want to ask how that thread can resemble in any away with Guardiola playstyle.

What he did in that thread was using "low mentality" roles with a more "attacking" mentality, balancing the agressiveness of the role with the mentality, now, how that can resemble in any way how the Guardiola play's ? The moment you have a more attacking mentality you aren't playing like guardiola does.

Nobody in here watched Man City matches or Barcelona ? How a more offensive mentality can recreate how the players play ? I will say again, you can change roles and many stuff to have more possession, to play safe with a higher defensive line, but that will not resemble Guardiola playstyle!

[herne79]

I get it just fine, I'm afraid it's you who isn't understanding.

Nobody is debating what I've been doing is Guardiola's style.  The debate at this point is your assertion that "play a high line in FM19 and you'll get slaughtered, period" or "high possession means you don't get scoring chances". Or even "everybody knows you have to play low mentality to get possession".

All of those statements are incorrect and people have been pointing you towards my current thread (which you haven't read) to give you an idea of why these things actually are possible.

And I say you haven't read it because

9 minutes ago, kurupted said:

What he did in that thread was using "low mentality" roles with a more "attacking" mentality

That was a thread I wrote for FM18 called "Attacking and Possession".  My current thread isn't like that, in fact I've hardly mentioned roles so far and only lightly touched on mentality, including using Positive, which is anything but low risk.

So yes, this whole thread concerns a Man City recreation, but you make very specific and incorrect statements which can mislead others into believing such things are simply impossible regardless of style of play - Man City or not.  That's the issue here.

[Mitja]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Challenging?  Sure (and it is).  Plenty of people find it challenging to win the EPL with Man Utd, Arsenal or even Man City, let alone West Ham.

Fun?  People find fun in the game in many different ways.  For a lot it's fun to win the EPL with the smallest club possible using so-called exploit tactics.  For others it's fun to spend years in the fifth tier winning absolutely nothing.  I'm glad we have a game which allows such variety .

I see what you meen but i wanted to point out something else. There is a big difference of overachieving and winning trophies with club like WHU in first season or two. I doubt such success is fun to anyone long term. 

We both know reasons why such dominstion is possible because of AI tactical sterility and all the ME issues AI wont be awere of.

[Mitja]

What seperates Peps City from esrlier days is how he adopted to PL football in terms of tempo his teams used. Lsst season City was by far most successful counter-attacking team. Early Peps Barca was all about possession and endless tiki taka. Now his team has fastest transition while still using tiki taka in final third against settled defense. I think its really fascinating how even the best manager with best team had to adopt to ultra fast PL style to achieve what City did in last two seasons. It would be awsome if FM followed such trends, football has become extra fast its all about quick trsnsitions, tiki taka style can afford only top clubs (in final third). In FM any team can successfuly play tiki taka just click the park the bus tactics and you are there. Ask any FM AI manager.

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

 

Nobody in here watched Man City matches or Barcelona ? How a more offensive mentality can recreate how the players play ? I will say again, you can change roles and many stuff to have more possession, to play safe with a higher defensive line, but that will not resemble Guardiola playstyle!

I dont think in real life there is such thing as mentality and riskiness in attack just like in fm is dictated by many different instructions which will define player behaviour and their roles in team. But if we talk in FM terms then of course just like whole PL Pep uses attacking "mentality" in terms of transitions and fast counter attacks but once the team is against organised and packed defense tiki taka is employed. In terms of roles and duties its really hard to say which players would be on attacking duty if any maybe Mendy, Silva? 

[kurupted]

9 horas atrás, herne79 disse:

I get it just fine, I'm afraid it's you who isn't understanding.

Nobody is debating what I've been doing is Guardiola's style.  The debate at this point is your assertion that "play a high line in FM19 and you'll get slaughtered, period" or "high possession means you don't get scoring chances". Or even "everybody knows you have to play low mentality to get possession".

All of those statements are incorrect and people have been pointing you towards my current thread (which you haven't read) to give you an idea of why these things actually are possible.

And I say you haven't read it because

That was a thread I wrote for FM18 called "Attacking and Possession".  My current thread isn't like that, in fact I've hardly mentioned roles so far and only lightly touched on mentality, including using Positive, which is anything but low risk.

So yes, this whole thread concerns a Man City recreation, but you make very specific and incorrect statements which can mislead others into believing such things are simply impossible regardless of style of play - Man City or not.  That's the issue here.

First of all, your thread about attacking possession has bases and principles that people know for many years, you are not the first one who says we cant control the risk the play is willing to commit by changing roles and mentalitys, just to remember, the thread you created isn't something that is new to 90% FM players.

The second thing is, i'm not making specific and incorrect statements, there are simply things you can't replicate in FM what happens in real-life, and one thing, is how City players have such a defensive line and their behaviour with the ball, there are movements and "roles" that players in real life do that you simply CAN NOT translate into the game, DS or KDB in 5 minutes can look like an AP and all of a sudden they are a "RPM", there are micro adjustments that coachs do that you can not do in FM, period. Playing with such a higher defensive line is one of them.

The high possession stats you talked about is another thing, everybody can create a heavy possession base tactic using simple instructions and roles, that isn't difficult at all is it ?

The other thing i wanted to say to you, is how you lack the knowledge of a tactical setup, when i said that playing high defensive line you get slaughtered, i wasn't totaly wrong, i dare you to play a high defensive line against strikers that have more pace than your defenders and i want to see if you don't get slaughtered. More important than Pace is the player tactical intelligence, even having fast defenders ISNT ENOUGH to play a high defensive line. You just need 1 or 2 strikers (pacey ones) that can do a run behind and you will automaticaly see what i mean

Edited January 31, 2019 by kurupted

[herne79]

@kurupted  I've had enough of your arrogant and patronising tone, which I've previously warned you about, along with your use of capitals.

A large proportion of the user base do not have either the experience or knowledge to create various styles of tactic and do indeed find it difficult.  Nobody is born with the knowledge, hence why many people take the time and effort to help others out.  That's why we call this a "community".  Constructive advice and help - whether that's based on things people have known for years or something new - is generally welcomed by members of the community, whether they are new to the forum or have been around for a while.  Yet you seem to confuse your "knowledge" with "everybody" or "90%" knowing the same.

Anyway, as you seem incapable of being able to follow a basic instruction and ignore a warning, I'm giving you some time off.  I advise you to reconsider your posting style should you decide to return after your ban has ended because carrying on in the same vein will just end in another ban.

[herne79]

I'll hide posts now (no offence) so lets just all move on now please and get back to Man City, no need to engage with anything else further .

[Gegenklaus]

7 hours ago, kurupted said:

First of all, your thread about attacking possession has bases and principles that people know for many years, you are not the first one who says we cant control the risk the play is willing to commit by changing roles and mentalitys, just to remember, the thread you created isn't something that is new to 90% FM players.

The second thing is, i'm not making specific and incorrect statements, there are simply things you can't replicate in FM what happens in real-life, and one thing, is how City players have such a defensive line and their behaviour with the ball, there are movements and "roles" that players in real life do that you simply CAN NOT translate into the game, DS or KDB in 5 minutes can look like an AP and all of a sudden they are a "RPM", there are micro adjustments that coachs do that you can not do in FM, period. Playing with such a higher defensive line is one of them.

The high possession stats you talked about is another thing, everybody can create a heavy possession base tactic using simple instructions and roles, that isn't difficult at all is it ?

The other thing i wanted to say to you, is how you lack the knowledge of a tactical setup, when i said that playing high defensive line you get slaughtered, i wasn't totaly wrong, i dare you to play a high defensive line against strikers that have more pace than your defenders and i want to see if you don't get slaughtered. More important than Pace is the player tactical intelligence, even having fast defenders ISNT ENOUGH to play a high defensive line. You just need 1 or 2 strikers (pacey ones) that can do a run behind and you will automaticaly see what i mean

Kurupted, why do you deal in such absolutes? “You cant do x because of y”? It is like you don’t understand the ground essence of FM. You can get to a through b, c, e and so on. Nothing is set in stone. You can play a really high line if you got the players for it. Many here on the forums has done it. 

I have tried telling you that you won’t be able to get everything from real life City into FM. You write it yourself, and I have been where you have been - trying to get everything into one tactic and it got frustrating because it can’t be done - or I have not been able to. Instead I began focusing on certain aspects - like the wing play and the 2-3-5 shape they use to attack with. One thing I have not been able to get right is the possession part - which is quite essential  - and @herne79‘s post helped me a lot in how I could distribute duties, roles and how it interacts with mentality and instructions.

[Rashidi]

8 hours ago, kurupted said:

The other thing i wanted to say to you, is how you lack the knowledge of a tactical setup, when i said that playing high defensive line you get slaughtered, i wasn't totaly wrong, i dare you to play a high defensive line against strikers that have more pace than your defenders and i want to see if you don't get slaughtered. More important than Pace is the player tactical intelligence, even having fast defenders ISNT ENOUGH to play a high defensive line. You just need 1 or 2 strikers (pacey ones) that can do a run behind and you will automaticaly see what i mean

You may get slaughtered, but others don't, so perhaps your knowledge is lacking somewhat. Hey just cos you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. I am sure there are better players on the forum here who can achieve it without too much effort.

 

[mp_87]

It should also be said that playing a (extremely) high line will always carry considerable risk. Watch games in real life and even the best teams have days where they get exposed and get, in Kurupted's words, slaughtered.

It's the trade off to be had with that style of play. That should be no different on FM.

[Ivan787]

Let me complicate the things a bit.

We are writing from some weeks about 2-3-5 build-up pattern, and this seems the most used in the last period. But is not the only one used.

What happens when Mahrez (and Mendy) plays? The things change a lot because Mahrez is left-footed and he plays on the right, so with "inverted foot". Who plays at the right side? Sterling right footed.

Sterling cuts inside with a free role, Mendy bombs forwards and the MC should drop deep......again 2-3-5 but different players, different interpretation, different pattern.

 

[Gegenklaus]

16 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Let me complicate the things a bit.

We are writing from some weeks about 2-3-5 build-up pattern, and this seems the most used in the last period. But is not the only one used.

What happens when Mahrez (and Mendy) plays? The things change a lot because Mahrez is left-footed and he plays on the right, so with "inverted foot". Who plays at the right side? Sterling right footed.

Sterling cuts inside with a free role, Mendy bombs forwards and the MC should drop deep......again 2-3-5 but different players, different interpretation, different pattern.

 

Yes, that has been my whole point all the time. The system changes with the players, but the attacking shape remains the same - generally speaking. That is why I think that creating the 2-3-5 shape regularly (as in you see it happen in the match engine, 5 players breaking ahead of the ball carrier, trying to find space between the lines) is the most important aspect.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[Ivan787]

36 minuti fa, Gegenklaus ha scritto:

Yes, that has been my whole point all the time. The system changes with the players, but the attacking shape remains the same - generally speaking. That is why I think that creating the 2-3-5 shape regularly (as in you see it happen in the match engine, 5 players breaking ahead of the ball carrier, trying to find space between the lines) is the most important aspect.

Agree, but the difficult is obtaining the attacking pattern in different ways, with different action, depending on who are your opponent.

Starting formation is always the same, 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 because I'm still evaluating this solution. Than, after kick-off, things changes depending on situation. Let me show below the occupied zone of Carabao Cup game against Burton, with a very experimental setup.

3-3-1-3 pattern.

[wkdsoul]

Ok, well todays positional play and formation threw a right spanner in my understanding of what Pep is up to.... A back 3, 1 cb and fernadinho playing a half back role...

[Gegenklaus]

6 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

Ok, well todays positional play and formation threw a right spanner in my understanding of what Pep is up to.... A back 3, 1 cb and fernadinho playing a half back role...

Quite clever wasnt it. Defended as a sort of 4-4-2ish/4-1-4-1 shape. In posssion 3-2-5, so three players in the first line against Arsenal’s two striker. It was also a solution to their problems with having a decent left back. Back three and double pivot meant possession could be secured relatively while 5 players broke ahead. I often saw de Bruyne and Silva on line with Aguero. And it is amazing to see the work rate of Sterling and B. Silva. Their ability to track back/press often gave de Bruyne and D. Silva to get back into position. 

If only we could have a striker move like Aguero in FM - often dropping off and link play centrally and on the wings.

[Ivan787]

7 ore fa, wkdsoul ha scritto:

Ok, well todays positional play and formation threw a right spanner in my understanding of what Pep is up to.... A back 3, 1 cb and fernadinho playing a half back role...

No fullbacks, incredible.

[Ivan787]

Let me come back to original intent of this thread, which was to try to emulate Pep's tactic and style of play at Man City.

After 8 pages of thread we have write a lot of concepts, but it seems that if some aspect are well developed, others still remain dark and hidden.

Let's start from what we have assured, and more or less confirmed by Pep in some interviews.

1. Starting line-up is always 4-3-3 which in FM terms could be translated in 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1. In my firsts experiments i used 4-1-4-1 by after re-watching some match I'm not convinced to this. Sanè and Sterling track back a lot, but in my opinion they are definitely forwards and not midfielders. I suppose that AML or AMR with high work rate could track back enough.

2. During build-up from keeper the key concept is to have one extra man. If the opponent plays with lone forward, Man City use the two centrebacks and Fernandinho is positioned in front of them, with two inverted wing backs on both sides, in a 2-3 system. If opponent plays with two forwards Fernandinho usually acts like an Half Back, yet with two IWBs, but this time in a 3-2 system.

3. Passing develop is (in this phase) very calmy and safety, with the main target that is to find a player (often De Bruyne or Silva) in the half space.

This is more o less what is "fixed" in the first phases of build-up from the back, and is easily replicable.

Than all changes, when the ball arrives to the half spaces, suddenly all change: tempo increases, passing risk increases, movement is constant, and players have more creative freedom. Sometimes (often in match against mid-low table team) the attacking pattern is with Sanè on the left and Sterling on the right, but against top team, in particular in the first weeks of the league, the preferred pattern was with Sterling on the left and Mahrez on the right. Against Liverpool it was more similar 3-1 with Silva acting as a true "10", when Mendy plays he can act like a classic "wingback".

If you observe well these are all patterns that is possible to create from a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 lineup. The only thing that is fixed, also in the attack phase, is "a lot of players can ENTER in the penalty area, nobody can STAY in the penalty area". Man City always get at least 3 players in the penalty area, but in the build-up phase nobody is inside.

 

[Gegenklaus]

39 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Let me come back to original intent of this thread, which was to try to emulate Pep's tactic and style of play at Man City.

After 8 pages of thread we have write a lot of concepts, but it seems that if some aspect are well developed, others still remain dark and hidden.

Let's start from what we have assured, and more or less confirmed by Pep in some interviews.

1. Starting line-up is always 4-3-3 which in FM terms could be translated in 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1. In my firsts experiments i used 4-1-4-1 by after re-watching some match I'm not convinced to this. Sanè and Sterling track back a lot, but in my opinion they are definitely forwards and not midfielders. I suppose that AML or AMR with high work rate could track back enough.

2. During build-up from keeper the key concept is to have one extra man. If the opponent plays with lone forward, Man City use the two centrebacks and Fernandinho is positioned in front of them, with two inverted wing backs on both sides, in a 2-3 system. If opponent plays with two forwards Fernandinho usually acts like an Half Back, yet with two IWBs, but this time in a 3-2 system.

3. Passing develop is (in this phase) very calmy and safety, with the main target that is to find a player (often De Bruyne or Silva) in the half space.

This is more o less what is "fixed" in the first phases of build-up from the back, and is easily replicable.

Than all changes, when the ball arrives to the half spaces, suddenly all change: tempo increases, passing risk increases, movement is constant, and players have more creative freedom. Sometimes (often in match against mid-low table team) the attacking pattern is with Sanè on the left and Sterling on the right, but against top team, in particular in the first weeks of the league, the preferred pattern was with Sterling on the left and Mahrez on the right. Against Liverpool it was more similar 3-1 with Silva acting as a true "10", when Mendy plays he can act like a classic "wingback".

If you observe well these are all patterns that is possible to create from a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 lineup. The only thing that is fixed, also in the attack phase, is "a lot of players can ENTER in the penalty area, nobody can STAY in the penalty area". Man City always get at least 3 players in the penalty area, but in the build-up phase nobody is inside.

 

Really good post. So to move on we can say there is a clear split of the individual mentality of the attacking unit (wingers, midfielders and strikers) and the defensive one. I am also being more convinced that we maybe should use a 4-1-2-2-1 (classic 4-3-3) in FM instead of the 4-1-4-1. The wingers need to be high and wide and put pressure on the opponents fullbacks simply because of the position they take. The two midfielders need to move high up as well. 

So, how do we make that mentality split? Where do we start? 

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, Gegenklaus ha scritto:

Really good post. So to move on we can say there is a clear split of the individual mentality of the attacking unit (wingers, midfielders and strikers) and the defensive one. I am also being more convinced that we maybe should use a 4-1-2-2-1 (classic 4-3-3) in FM instead of the 4-1-4-1. The wingers need to be high and wide and put pressure on the opponents fullbacks simply because of the position they take. The two midfielders need to move high up as well. 

So, how do we make that mentality split? Where do we start? 

I think we have to start from players. Remember that Guardiola style is possible ONLY with very specific players with very specific attribute (and PPM which plays a very important part). I write this because I'm trying to emulate him but with Arsenal (my favourite english team since Invincibles) and I'm struggling about Sokratis. He is a very good marker and tackler but lack in composure, passing, and anticipation. This means that when I ask him to play the ball (CB defend with take fewer risk) his attribute are too much low to manage the ball when pressed, and this lead to a lot of balls lost due to him that clear the ball.

The same approach could be used for wingers. I like very much to have wingers with "get into opposite area" as PPM. This means that if the ball is wide on the right I have the opposite winger that is inside the penalty area waiting for the ball.

Finally the "come deep to get the ball" for the forward means that you can use an attack duty (so a higher mentality) and still have your player comes deep.

About mentality split it depends, I prefer to set a positive mentality and use take fewer risk for IWBs and CBs. Using cautious would give the result of a forward with "defensive" individual mentality that I don't like,

Edited February 4, 2019 by Ivan787
grammar

[Ivan787]

How about using a flat 3 in midfield to make the two 8s split more in the channel?

 

[wkdsoul]

13 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Quite clever wasnt it. Defended as a sort of 4-4-2ish/4-1-4-1 shape. In posssion 3-2-5, so three players in the first line against Arsenal’s two striker. It was also a solution to their problems with having a decent left back. Back three and double pivot meant possession could be secured relatively while 5 players broke ahead. I often saw de Bruyne and Silva on line with Aguero. And it is amazing to see the work rate of Sterling and B. Silva. Their ability to track back/press often gave de Bruyne and D. Silva to get back into position. 

If only we could have a striker move like Aguero in FM - often dropping off and link play centrally and on the wings.

Yeah, i cant wait to see some breakdown articles on it online at somepoint.. incredible positional awareness

[Gegenklaus]

5 minutes ago, wkdsoul said:

Yeah, i cant wait to see some breakdown articles on it online at somepoint.. incredible positional awareness

Indeed. Also shows Fernandinho versatility. Incredible.

8 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

How about using a flat 3 in midfield to make the two 8s split more in the channel?

 

That makes sense. And it can probably work well with PPM Comes Deep and the Play Out Defense TI. 

[Ivan787]

Definitely more more easy to achieve the 2-3-5 pattern using the configuration with Sterling + Mendy on the left and Mahrez on the right.

[Trimisiyu]

I am not sure why this thread became stale as it is an interesting one considering the challenges of creating some close to reality on a virtual space. Nevertheless, I was intrigued by the challenge which I took upon to accept. I went ahead to develop some variation of tactics I believe came close to Pep’s style however I am still lacking a lot largely due to the type of players I have in my squad.

 

I think it is possible to create something close to a Pep style nevertheless. However, I still have major drawbacks as I have not refined the attacking phase of the tactics however the defense is fine. Possession stats are also great along with the number of passes. per game (more than 600). The players I have in my squad however lack some abolties which is still a drwback for me such as work rate, agression and teamwork which is needed to win back possesion. 

 

Thanks to @herne79 , @Cleon @Rashidi - I went through most of their works to come up with this tactic. 

 

The first point I’d like to point out is the use of half-spaces by the no. 8 (KdB) and no.10 (D. Silva) in Pep’s tactics is very difficult to create in FM especially if you lack players with similar characteristics to these Mancity players. The issue is that FM19 ME has it’s drawbacks (which is natural in any simulation game) as if you use in a midfield diamond 2 roles such as CM or even AP, DLPs - the players always seem to come too close to each other but I believe in order to solve this issue, you have to use a double Mezzala or players that naturally move into channels and stay wider in the midfield. Thus I opted for a double Mezzala which is key to creating this tactic.

 

The second point is the use of fullbacks - this came easy as the movements of IWB on FM19 have been well refined to combine with players all around them. Thus sometimes you see an IWB on the outside and wingers on the inside and vice versa depending on the phase of play. I have opted to use a combination of these 2 roles on the far spaces most of the time as they give most flexibility and unpredictability to opponents (the AI). However, you have to the full back roles tailored to your players. Thus if you player is an attacking full back - have no fear and let him overlap into spaces and if the fullback is a defensive minded one, make him more conservative. Simple as that. Player to your player's strengths.

Team Instructions:

Playout of defense, dribble less, overlap left (depending on the game situation), lower tempo

In Transition: Distribute to center backs, counter-press and counter. I use counter depending on the game situation. 

Out of possesion: much higher d-line, much higher line of engagement, prevent shor GK distribution 

 

- SK - Support - No PI

 

- RB - IWB - No PI

 

- CBR - CD - No PI

 

- CBL - CD - No PI

 

- LB - WB Support or Full Back support or IWB on Support - this depends on how aggressive you want to be in the attacking phase of the game or on the counter. PI used >> Cross from byline.

 

- DM - Registar/Defensive Midfielder on Support. Again this largely depends on the type of player you have in the squad. If you have a creative DM, you can assign him to create from deep which gives you control especially in the attacking phase when opponents seat deep and you can as well use a DM on support with the PIs of Take fewer Risks, shot less. Again all depends on the game situation. I often opt for a Registar because i have a very good DM with nice passing, decision, anticipation and vision.

 

CMR - Mezzala Attack - i mostly always use an attacking mezzala here because I combine this role with my AMR who is always a winger because of the type of players I have. My AMR is a very fast winger that has good crossing and pace. The AMR stays wider and the Mezzala stays close to him as well and in-turn exploits the half spaces on the right side of the midfield and also runs in the channel in from of him. This is like what D. Silva does for Mancity on the left. My left midfielder doesn’t have a good off-the-ball thus i opted to use this role on my right. PI >> shotless, close down more.

 

CML - Mezzala Support - again this role is similar to the CMR but less aggressive because i want him to combine with my register and my LB. PI >> shotless, close down more

 

AMR - Winger Support - already explained. PI >> close down more

 

AML - Inside Forward Attack (if DL is FB or WB) or Winger on Attack (if LB is IWB) PI >> close down more, stay wider (if it is an Inside forward on Attack or if the LB is an IWB)

 

Striker - any role on support will do but it depends on the player you have and the opponent you are facing. This role is one that gives me so much headache as i have 2 types of strikers. One similar to an Aguero (creativity and nice finishing with nice teamwork) and another like a Lewandoski (attacking spaces rather than dropping deep to combine with teammates because he does not have a good teamwork). PI >> close down more defensive shape.

 

in summary, I am still fine tunning the tactic but i think i have come a long way with an average team. 

 

[Gegenklaus]

Good work @Trimisiyu.

Do you switch between mentalities? Or is there one you use more than others?

[Amarante]

On 31/01/2019 at 08:17, Mitja said:

I see what you meen but i wanted to point out something else. There is a big difference of overachieving and winning trophies with club like WHU in first season or two. I doubt such success is fun to anyone long term. 

at the end of the day its a game. And a game exist for us to live out our fantasies. So if you can win the PL with West Ham in the first season thats fine because its a game if this was made impossible then this would defeat the purpose of playing FM

[Trimisiyu]

13 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Good work @Trimisiyu.

Do you switch between mentalities? Or is there one you use more than others?

I mostly rely on Balanced because of several reasons:

1. I use Aston Villa - and with all due respect they are not a Barcelona thus I tend to be a bit more cautious. However, if you have players or use a team who are in the Tier one status (such as the likes of Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern etc) you can approach on a Positive mentality because a team will naturally seat back against you. If you watch La Liga matches in real life - I would suggest you watch Real Betis of 2017/2018 season. I find them very similar to my style of play. They are a possession-based cautious team. (PS: I do watch a lot of football esp lower team and pick things up from there). 

2. I play in the premier league which is way more competitive in terms of finishing in top 4 thus I don't usually go all guns blazing.

3. I am also a very defensive FM player (although my tactics don't reflect it). 

4. Most important, your team mentality has to work in tandem with player roles and duty as well. Largely, when I sometimes play on positive or attacking - I use only or 2 attacking duties. Also, the use of overlaps and underlaps are for controlling fullbacks and wingers mentalities. 

 

In summary, in order for you to decide which mentality to use - you have "feel" the game. Understand your squad's strengths and weaknesses. I have to say, it took me a long time to come up with my own FM style (and everyone has their desired style of play in them) so you can also do that. 

 

My advise - never be dogmatic about FM tactics but do a lot of research.  

[Mutumba]

On 23/02/2019 at 18:41, Trimisiyu said:

I am not sure why this thread became stale as it is an interesting one considering the challenges of creating some close to reality on a virtual space. Nevertheless, I was intrigued by the challenge which I took upon to accept. I went ahead to develop some variation of tactics I believe came close to Pep’s style however I am still lacking a lot largely due to the type of players I have in my squad.

Would you mind sharing some screens of your PI and team instructions. There are a couple of details I might have missed since im not used to constructing my own tactics from scratch

[Trimisiyu]

4 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Would you mind sharing some screens of your PI and team instructions. There are a couple of details I might have missed since im not used to constructing my own tactics from scratch

The TIs are quite straight forward in my description. HYG with some of my tactical screenshots. Please note that these are standard and I do make loads of changes depending on in-match situation so replicating the same thing might not work for you but pls do give it a try: 

[zgiorgos10]

How about setting in amc position three players? Kun as amc ( attacking midfielder attack) amrc De Bruyne ( attacking midfielder support) and Silva as amlc (attacking midfielder support) ? Also i was thinking about the two wide players if they has to play in aml & amr position or deeper as ml $ mr. The last one is Fernandinho starting position. Maybe for better replacation we have to play him as a central mieldfielder defend. Thanks for reading and i hope i give you a point to think. I found that silva and de bruyne moving very well and wide enough if agouero is between them.

[FCBlove]

 

Hi people I think I came across something here. After a long try and test I finally managed to play with manchester city in fm 19 a nice and successful football. With beautiful football I mean nice combinations and finally great passes in the room. It was definitely the best football I have played in this version and it was not easy being there fm 19 is not the best part for nice football. Here are some screenshots of my first season. Oh and sorry for my english.

[Pep468]

17 hours ago, FCBlove said:

 

Hi people I think I came across something here. After a long try and test I finally managed to play with manchester city in fm 19 a nice and successful football. With beautiful football I mean nice combinations and finally great passes in the room. It was definitely the best football I have played in this version and it was not easy being there fm 19 is not the best part for nice football. Here are some screenshots of my first season. Oh and sorry for my english.

Could you post the tactic then please mate?

[FCBlove]

Yes sure but the important factor here is that I take depending on the formation of the opponent quite different tactics and have created about 20 tactics for almost all possible formations.

Btw the d behind the formations stands for defensive midfielder. So use only if the opponent plays this formation with two defensive midfielders.

Another point is that I started my season with the april database update of FMI from the steam workshop. Maby it has an impact.

1. man city away a. 4141 v2.fmf

man city home a. 442.fmf

2. man city away a. 4141 v2.fmf

man city home a. 532o v2.fmf

man city home a. 532o.fmf

man city home a. 4141 v5.fmf

man city home a. 4141 v6.fmf

man city home a. 4231d.fmf

man city away a. 4231.fmf

man city away a. top teams.fmf

man city away a. 442.fmf

man city away a. 4213(wolves).fmf

man city home a. 442d.fmf

man city home a. 4231.fmf

man city home a. 4411d.fmf

 

 

man city away a. 442d.fmf

[FCBlove]

Oh and a. means against

[Gee_Simpson]

20 tactics!? That's insane! 

[Rashidi]

My liquid 4123 is meant to be a tactical replication of City's style, maintaining the "W" shape and getting most of the assists coming from the wingers, and it only needs me to play with one tactic.  Coming up with 20 seems to be like aiming for a needle in haystack in a middle of hailstorm.

[Finners]

Oh wow. I play a high defensive line and high press with newly promoted Venezia in the top flight and I've got one of the best defensive records in the league. 

I never knew I was a genius. Glad I read this thread. 

[Mutumba]

What would you all say are the rules of thumb (in general) for when creating something along the lines of a Pep tactic?

 

SHAPE

4141 and 41221

 

MENTALITY

Depends on circumstances but Positive and Balanced. When Balanced use more attacking roles, and when Positive use less?

 

TI

- Work ball into box

- Play out of defence

- Shorter passing (?)

- Counter press

- GK roll distribute to defence/short kicks

- High/Much higher LOE

- High/Much higher D-Line

- Prevent short GK distribution

- Pressing: either have extremley high/high AND less pressing among defenders OR have your front 4-5 players do more urgent pressing 

 

ROLES

Varies depending on players at your disposal but:

DM- DMs, DLPd/s or Regista

Two "8s" either Mezzalas (s and a) or AP (s and a)?

[Mbianco]

So guys, we know that man city attack in a 2-3-5, a formation that can be achieved in fm in some ways. The easiest is obvs having wingbacks wide and forward and the insideforwards in the halfspaces, but i found this too predictable and one dimensional. Having the wingers wide and the 8s in the halfspaces makes this tactic so interesting

I am trying my best to replicate this and with this formations i'm having some kind of succes and a lot of goal like this 

in the 4th image willock is a mez(s), not a mez(a)

the roles 

                     SKd                                     (i don't have a Ederson type keeper, otherwhise i would use a SKs)

IWBd    BPD     BPD 

                                        IWBs

        MEZs DLPd MEZa                         (using the dlp in the midfield trio makes the mezzalas plays in the right position for me)

Ws                                    Ws                 (cross from byline and hold position PIs for both, it makes them wider)

                     F9

instruction 
offensive

much shorter passing, play out of defence, work the ball into the box, be more disciplined, wide

counter, counterpress, take short kicks

higher, higher loe, more urgent, prevent short gk distribution, use the offside trap

in the future i will try WM, meanwhile let me know what you think about this

and srry for my bad english 

[fthy]

14 saat önce, Mbianco said:

So guys, we know that man city attack in a 2-3-5, a formation that can be achieved in fm in some ways. The easiest is obvs having wingbacks wide and forward and the insideforwards in the halfspaces, but i found this too predictable and one dimensional. Having the wingers wide and the 8s in the halfspaces makes this tactic so interesting

I am trying my best to replicate this and with this formations i'm having some kind of succes and a lot of goal like this 

in the 4th image willock is a mez(s), not a mez(a)

the roles 

                     SKd                                     (i don't have a Ederson type keeper, otherwhise i would use a SKs)

IWBd    BPD     BPD 

                                        IWBs

        MEZs DLPd MEZa                         (using the dlp in the midfield trio makes the mezzalas plays in the right position for me)

Ws                                    Ws                 (cross from byline and hold position PIs for both, it makes them wider)

                     F9

instruction 
offensive

much shorter passing, play out of defence, work the ball into the box, be more disciplined, wide

counter, counterpress, take short kicks

higher, higher loe, more urgent, prevent short gk distribution, use the offside trap

in the future i will try WM, meanwhile let me know what you think about this

and srry for my bad english 

player Instructions?

[Mbianco]

9 hours ago, fthy said:

player Instructions?

SK none 

IWBd take fewer risks 

BPD shorter passes, stay wider 

IWBs shorter passes, take fewer risks, shoot less 

MEZs direct passes, take more risks, dribble more, more closing down

DLPd take more risks 

MEZa dribble more, more closing down, run wide with ball

Ws cross from the byline, hold position, more closing down, tackle harder, thinght marking

F9 more closing down

[fthy]