Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[Ivan787]

Il 10/12/2018 in 09:58 , tacticalthoughts ha scritto:

Is anyone having trouble getting the striker to score goals with this style of play?

Yes, me too. It is natural, due to low mentality.

[Ivan787]

I did a lot of tests with different set-up and I think now that is absolutely impossible to replicate the exact way in which Man City plays.

This is mainly due to very different mentality they have in the build-up phase respect to the final third. Yous should be able to set different mentality from defenders and attackers, which is not possible in FM.

Using 4-1-4-1 lineup, with IWB(s) and W(s) on the flanks, I've found that if I set cautious mentality (plus other TIs and PIs already discussed in this thread) I have a perfect replication of build-up phase, but my wingers don't make 1vs1 with FB but prefer an easy backward pass, and my CMs don't make enough run in opposite area. Many match win 1-0 with 65-70% of possession but only a few chances.

If I set balanced or positive mentality I can replicate the wingers 1vs1, the CM killer passes, but I have to accept some no-sense long passes by wingbacks and defenders and a possession slightly less than in real life.

I don't know, I will probably go with the positive mentality accepting that in this game is impossible to replicate exactly how Pep plays.

[tacticalthoughts]

18 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I did a lot of tests with different set-up and I think now that is absolutely impossible to replicate the exact way in which Man City plays.

This is mainly due to very different mentality they have in the build-up phase respect to the final third. Yous should be able to set different mentality from defenders and attackers, which is not possible in FM.

Using 4-1-4-1 lineup, with IWB(s) and W(s) on the flanks, I've found that if I set cautious mentality (plus other TIs and PIs already discussed in this thread) I have a perfect replication of build-up phase, but my wingers don't make 1vs1 with FB but prefer an easy backward pass, and my CMs don't make enough run in opposite area. Many match win 1-0 with 65-70% of possession but only a few chances.

If I set balanced or positive mentality I can replicate the wingers 1vs1, the CM killer passes, but I have to accept some no-sense long passes by wingbacks and defenders and a possession slightly less than in real life.

I don't know, I will probably go with the positive mentality accepting that in this game is impossible to replicate exactly how Pep plays.

But still the issue with the striker on that mentality? I was playing as Milan and Higuain scored 9 goals all season with 20 finishing and hardly ever got a chance but Kessie on Mez (S) scored 18 goals.

[Ivan787]

54 minuti fa, tacticalthoughts ha scritto:

But still the issue with the striker on that mentality? I was playing as Milan and Higuain scored 9 goals all season with 20 finishing and hardly ever got a chance but Kessie on Mez (S) scored 18 goals.

With positive mentality no he seems more involved in scoring but still too much goal from CMs. With a very low mentality you tell your forward F9 or PF, to focus more on defensive aspect and assist, and roaming he leaves the space to CMs.... You can try with a different setup DLF or CF without roaming, or maybe AF (probably a PPM like comes deep to get the ball can make suitable also this role). I agree that this is not the way in which Aguero plays but, again, you have to deal with a ME that is not real life.

I'm also thinking about not using MEZ as CM roles....I found MEZ, also on support, too much oriented to scoring instead of making assist. I will try with AP(s) or CM(s) with appropriate PIs.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Ivan787

[Ivan787]

Il 7/12/2018 in 05:38 , yonko ha scritto:

First, we need to define what traditional winger is. But the way I understand them to play like, I don't think that is what Pep is using them like. At least not in the final third.

Second, you don't know the scenario I was using because I didn't go into details about it. I just mentioned a general concept of having 3 men running into the box while the ball is in the final third.

So here is an example in details:

Sterling has the ball on the right side of the penalty box, outside of the box in the wide channel. In this situation, you don't want Sane to be wide on the other side. You want him in the box with David Silva (MCL) and Aguero (ST) jostling for position in the box and being a goal threat. However, in support of Sterling on the right side you have KDB (MCR) and Walker (DR) plus additional support infield from Fernandinho (DM). In this scenario Sane's role is not to provide width on the weak side. It is to be a goal threat along with Silva and Aguero.

Now if you rewind back and have Sterling with the ball 20 yards or so back, he would be out wide near the sideline in the middle third of the field. In this scenario, you want Sane stretching the play outside on the opposite side. The spacing is different depending or where the ball is and who has the ball.

For the first two thirds of the field, Sane and Sterling have to provide width and stretch the play, so Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Aguero (to some extent, but not as much as say Messi had) have space to operate. In the final third you have freedom of movement, generally, but at City Pep is focusing more on having 3 players being a goal threat in the final third. 

Now, some of this can be created in FM and some of this may not be, like many other things, btw. 

Perfect explanation.

Probably a PPM like gets into the opposite area will help.

[FreezingTable]

Any improvements regarding the attacking movement in the final third in ME19.2? Haven’t played that patch yet. 

[Ivan787]

13 ore fa, FreezingTable ha scritto:

Any improvements regarding the attacking movement in the final third in ME19.2? Haven’t played that patch yet. 

For my experience no.

Definitively the same as previous version. With defensive or cautious mentality I continue to see a correct build-up but my wingers don't make any run 1vs1. With balanced or positive mentality they are OK in the final third but a lot of waste balls due to non sense passes from CB or FB.

[Ivan787]

I found other issues about role and positioning of wide players.

If I set my team with a 4-1-4-1 with Mez(s) and WM(a) I often foound the two MEZ(s) higher in the pitch than WMs, also with get further forward....so my first idea was to change to a 4-1-2-2-1.

But in this case there is a big issue about suitable role for wide players on AMR and AML positions. Wingers, also on support, have hardcoded to dribble hugging the lines, so they always move wide.....IFs can cut inside but have hardcoded to cross less, that is not how I want they plays.....

In my opinion there is a lack of a "generalist" role on AML/AMR, similar to WM.

[tacticalthoughts]

I've noticed when i play against Man City, their play style is a lot better and closer to the real thing than when i actually try to create it haha

Some of the through balls that Aguero gets are what i'm trying to replicate and Aguero has no issues scoring unlike my #9 who takes all season to get to 5 goals in a team which tops the league.

I use a cautious mentality but like others here have said, when increasing the mentality the midfield plays some balls through the defence but then the rest of the players tend to play some crazy passes that will never hit their target. Higher mentality with "Be more disciplined" perhaps? I want the passes from the higher mentality but the build up play from the cautious mentality.

We need to be able to vary our mentality dependant on where we are on the pitch. Inside own half "cautious" seems to be the perfect approach to a concentrated short passing build up but then in the final third it's moved to "positive" which would then see the central midfielders playing balls through the defence or the wingers making pull backs from the by line.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by tacticalthoughts

[99]

Hi,

Thanks for this wonderful thread / discussion, I've just read all pages and took notes of the various ideas you posted in order to test them.

One question tho, how much aware I need to be of incompatible roles with each other while doing those tests? I have a moderately good knowledge about football, positions and movement, but I wonder if some of this roles can't really cohabit. Let's see an example, I see most people agreeing that the midfield roles to achieve this play style should vary between DLP, CM, MEZ, RPM or AP. Is it worth to test all combinations, or some of them are "doomed" to not work? Some time ago I've read that in FM we should only have one playmaker, but I've used two and in this thread someone (sorry didn't noted the name) even used 3 (2 DLP and 1 AP).

Trying to increase my knowledge about tactics in FM (and football in general) as well as replicating my absolute favorite playstyle ingame. Thank you!

Edited December 13, 2018 by 99
Spelling

[chris31k]

When I read this thread it seems that the problem is that we can't have different mentality between players. It was exactly what team shape did in fm18. Determine how much difference there was between players regarding their position and role/duty. Choose between fluid where everyone is concerned about attacking or defending and structured where the team is splitted in units that complete only certain tasks. So you can have a scale of risk taking from low to your defending squad to high to your offensive one. I've read that a lot of fm players think that removing team shape is a great idea, because it was too complex. I don't think so, I really miss team shape, so do you as it seems you struggle with your tactics. And I totally agree the AML/AMR lack a generic role. It's the only position that don't have one. Anyway you can try using attack duty in more conservative approach, it may lead to high risk taking players even if the tactic is more conservative.

[Hoosier_76]

22 hours ago, FreezingTable said:

Any improvements regarding the attacking movement in the final third in ME19.2? Haven’t played that patch yet. 

I haven't spent a ton of time with it yet, but so far I'd say yes. Specifically I've noticed the f9 movement has dramatically improved.

[99]

18 horas atrás, chris31k disse:

When I read this thread it seems that the problem is that we can't have different mentality between players. It was exactly what team shape did in fm18. Determine how much difference there was between players regarding their position and role/duty. Choose between fluid where everyone is concerned about attacking or defending and structured where the team is splitted in units that complete only certain tasks. So you can have a scale of risk taking from low to your defending squad to high to your offensive one. I've read that a lot of fm players think that removing team shape is a great idea, because it was too complex. I don't think so, I really miss team shape, so do you as it seems you struggle with your tactics. And I totally agree the AML/AMR lack a generic role. It's the only position that don't have one. Anyway you can try using attack duty in more conservative approach, it may lead to high risk taking players even if the tactic is more conservative.

Well, even in FM19 you have the same principle. In your tactics, if you choose a between roles defend and attack, you'll have stuctured. If however you choose support, you'll have fluid. It's the same thing.

[Nima2708]

On 12/11/2018 at 01:38, LeonardSnart said:

I am a huge fan of Pep Guardiola. His Manchester City is the best Premier Leauge team I've ever seen and I want to recreate his tactic.
Everyone knows that wingbacks are cutting inside the midfield, wingers stays close the line to remain width and ofensive atacking midfielders are moving into the halfspaces.
It is the mix of typical short passes when in possesion and counterpressing + counter in transition. There is also high press when team has no ball.

Here is my interpretation:

I am not sure about midfield trio roles. And team shape IMO should be fluid, but unfortunately, FM prefers flexible.

 

 

What would you improve to make this more realistic and effective?

Here you got it my friend:

 

 

[Gegenklaus]

Okay guys, I might be on to something here. As it has been said before when it comes to replicating Pep's complicated real life tactics you need to focus on certain aspects and just try to replicate that. For me, what I love most about the way Man City plays is how they position themselves when in posession and attacks mainly through the wide channels and half spaces. So what I wanted to replicate is their attacking shape, the wingplay and the two number 8's as an offensive threat. Wanted to create the two bands of players; 5 attacks, 5 protects circulate the ball. After a full season with Liverpool with a lot of trial and error I ended up with this:

Wow, that looks quite defensive, doesn't it? I don't even use a striker, the formation is deep, but how it plays during the attacking phase is quite fun to watch. There was several reasons I ended up with this. One being that both Sane and Sterling holds width for a long, long time, they get a bit narrow in the final third, getting around the corner edge of the penalty box. In the midfield strata the wingers holds width for much longer and even with an attack duty they track back a lot. But lets start from the top:

Mentality: I ended up using the "Positive" mentality to get some risk taking into the play. I use a really natural defensive formation by nature, so I need my attackers to move high up the field and be aggressive. I used "Balanced" a lot but I found when we were in possession our midfielders and SS were way to deep. I need them to push up and making space. Remember, I did not set out to replicate their cautious build up play, how the back 5 ping pongs the ball around until they can find the free man of the five attackers. I do see it happen though and if I wanted more of that I could maybe lower the tempo a bit but that's what I will be focusing on season 2.

Team instructions: I always like keeping it minimal here but to apply the attacking shape, and considering I am using a deep formation where players starting positions are deep, I need a fair bit of possession to get players up the field and get into our attacking shape. Play out of defence helps with that and also makes the centerback split! It is so cool to watch! The same with shorter passing (and it is a trademark of Pep's teams afterall) helps a bit with our possession. Also I am playing on positive which means players are inclined to be a bit more direct in choosing their passing options, the Shorter Passing TI helps nullify that a bit.

In transitions I ask my Sweeper Keeper to take short kicks and I think it is a lovely TI that makes the keeper play somewhat like Ederson. Sometimes he gives the ball to the centerbacks or he plays it out wide to the wingers or maybe even central to one of the number 8's. It is great to see when the opposition pressure you, you draw them and the keeper bypass the high press with a simple ball into midfield from where I usually have 5 players who goes on to attack. We counter press (helps with the high press) and if we win the ball go attack before the opposition gets back to defend. This TI might mean I lose some possession stats, but I am not interested in extreme numbers of possession. Also Man City do counter incredible fast if the situation is right.

Out of possession I want to emulate the high press from Man City and how they defend. Only thing to note here is that I went to extreme with the line of engagement TI to make my midfield and SS to defend as high up the pitch as possible.

Roles and duties from the bottom:

Sweeper Keeper(S): The first attacker of Pep's teams is the goalkeeper. He is involved during build up play and helps bypass press. Sweeper Keeper on Support does all of this, if you have the player for it. Alisson is that players.

2x Central Defender: Not using any Ball Playing Defenders as I want them both to keep it simple.

FB(s): I fell a bit in love with this role actually. It does a bit of everything, brings support in the wide channel, sometimes tucks in and helps centrally and is conservative enough to not leave the defense exposed. His main job is ball circulation and protect the space that the WM(a) and Mez(s) leaves behind. I could have gone with IWB(s) but I found that he wandered too much into the space that the Mez(s) is operating in.

IWB(d): On support duty he came "too" close to the Mez(a) and if the player has PPM's like "Get forward whenever possible" he sometimes takes up the space that I want the Mez(A) to be in. Defend duty means he will stay back a lot more and sometimes I see him make a 3-chain with the two CD's during build up while the Mez(A) moves high up into space. I am not 100 hundred percent on this yet though.

DM(S). Has hold position. With using 2x mezzalas my midfielders splits really wide so I want my number 6 to move up a bit in midfield central area to offer a link between the sort of two wide bands of attackers and be on the same vertical line as the Shadow Striker. Hold position is for him to not move too far up. And because of Hendersons PPM's he comes deep during build up.

2x WM(A): Okay, so I kept it real simple here. Man City's wingers both make a lot of forward runs. To me, that suggest an attack duty, so I gave them an attack duty. They also stay wide all the way to the final third then make runs into the wide areas of the penalty box. So I give them "Stay Wider" PI. And they also make dribbles, more than usually I think, so I gave them "Dribble more". If there is one thing I am most happy about this tactic it is these two roles. Mane and Salah plays them, sometimes with their strong foot inside or towards the touchline. Despite both not being natural in this position they did really well for me during the season. Salah got 21 goals and 13 assist. Mane 19 goals and 16 assist.

The midfield pair; Mez on support, mez on attack: Guardiola in his sort of 4-3-3 system splits the midfielders quite wide (sometimes they come close to each to help overloading, but forget about that right now). The tactic is all about making space for these two number 8's. Okay, so I wanted one of them to charge into the box and be real high and really aggressive in his decision making, while the other is not so high but helps link defense and attack a bit more while also moving up high when an attack is going on. I've been really happy with this pair and also to see that the match engine can punish you if the opposition gets through your high press - as this is Man City's real life weakness too.

Shadow Striker: Oh my God the trial and error of this position. Tried several striker roles on support - also the PF(d) - and they dont offer themselves enough during build up play. Half into the season I choose to go strikerless and it works somewhat okay. There is a lot of space in the central midfield because of the mezzalas is quite wide, so Bobby Firmino - who plays this role - drops into the space there and helps with the build up - and then charge into the box - running when the cross is being delivered, not standing there - just as Guardiola wants. Main thing with this though - and it is a problem - is that he is sometimes way to deep - also because of his PPM (Comes deep to get ball). Next season I am going to try to make him unlearn that because the Shadow Striker as a role comes deep enough as it is.

Despite this being an experiment the season went really well:

And a screenshot of our attacking shape:

Luis Alberto have come deep to help with the build, 4 attackers have managed to position themselves between the lines and if Luis Alberto manage to find one of them a dangerous attacks can be developed as we then have a 4v4 going. This is taken from the CL-final against Inter, who played in their 4-2-3-1 pressed us quite aggressively so we did have problems getting into our attacking shapes as Inter gave us little time on the ball - but once we broke through we came into good chances and won 4-1.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Gegenklaus

[richh200]

This sounds very interesting. Any chance you could share some stats for the different positions and screenshots of some matches?

[yonko]

7 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

 

And a screenshot of our attacking shape:

This shape looks good. I like how it came out in the 3D. How is the general interaction in terms of passing and movement between the DM, Mezallas and SS? Is this typical picture as illustrated? Do you have any passing maps to show? How many goals and assist did you get from the SS and the Mezallas?

On a side note: I find it funny that you're using Liverpool to replicate Pep's City tactic, considering the upcoming big match on Thursday IRL.

[Irn Rvd]

Tried your formation @Gegenklaus

Some of the play is amazing and very guardiola like. Defence is strong. Wide midfielders work a treat. Mezzelas actually push forward up the wings in dangerous positions.

Struggling with the striker role though. Any suggestions?

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by Irn Rvd

[04texag]

This recent tactic has been working great for me in my Sevilla save. Mostly using it in CL games. Love the movement on counters.

The SS sometimes works sometimes not. I have on occasion moved him to a true striker on DLF-A

[Gegenklaus]

On 31/12/2018 at 22:25, yonko said:

This shape looks good. I like how it came out in the 3D. How is the general interaction in terms of passing and movement between the DM, Mezallas and SS? Is this typical picture as illustrated? Do you have any passing maps to show? How many goals and assist did you get from the SS and the Mezallas?

Hey, sorry for the late reply. It is hard to say as with the first season I experimented a LOT. So the players did not play the same roles until the last like 10 games I think. The shape can happen several times during a match but it depends a whole lot on the opponent and how they defend and what shape they do it in. The ideal shape is to have 5 players trying to find space between the lines and that rarely happens. I've stopped using the SS, he shrinks the space too much vertically because he comes so deep - despite using Salah which has the "Tries to beat offside trap". I replaced the role with Pressing Forward(D) as the main purpose of the striker in this system is to offer a central passing option and be a threat in the box. I will use the above posted shape with the PF(D) for a whole season - might change tactics in some games if I think I positionally can get an advantage (like 3-5-2 vs. a standard 442 or 4411 vs. defensive systems or whatever). But I will mainly focus on getting the above shape right.

On 04/01/2019 at 21:19, Irn Rvd said:

Tried your formation @Gegenklaus

Some of the play is amazing and very guardiola like. Defence is strong. Wide midfielders work a treat. Mezzelas actually push forward up the wings in dangerous positions.

Struggling with the striker role though. Any suggestions?

 

Yes, I love any role in the wide midfield strata, you can make them be really aggressive when you have the ball but also hardworking when out of possession. In other words they work both ways, like you see Sterling and Sane does.

See above, I too stopped using the SS role and I am going to try the PF(D).

On 05/01/2019 at 00:51, 04texag said:

This recent tactic has been working great for me in my Sevilla save. Mostly using it in CL games. Love the movement on counters.

The SS sometimes works sometimes not. I have on occasion moved him to a true striker on DLF-A

Interesting how does the DLF-A interact in the system? Doesn't he become too isolated?

And btw guys - if you really want extreme width (to create more space for the more advanced mezzala) try to put the WM next to him on Support but with Get Further Forward (he still gets into the box on occassion).

[kurupted]

GegenKlaus, what about PI's ?

[Hoosier_76]

I gave the formation a go with a treq in the AMC role. It worked great in terms of moving the ball around, but the downside is that the role isn't great for pressing.

[Experienced Defender]

After carefully watching the 1st half of the City vs Wolves game, this is how I would replicate Pep's tactic (based on this particular match, with Jesus as the lone FW):

Formation - 4141 DM Wide

Mentality - Positive

Roles & duties setup:

PO

Wsu                                           TQ

APMatt         MEZsu

DLPsu

IWBsu    CDde    BPDco     IWBde

SKsu

Team instructions:

In possession - play out of def, slightly shorter passing, work ball into box, be more expressive, low crosses

In transition - counter, counter-press, distribute (quickly) to CBs

Out of possession - much higher DL, higher LOE, more urgent press, use offside trap

Player instructions:

AML - Wsu (Sane) - roam from position

ST - PO (Jesus) - move into channels

 

 

[Gegenklaus]

On 13/01/2019 at 18:58, kurupted said:

GegenKlaus, what about PI's ?

Stay wider and dribble more for WM, hold position for DM.

[Experienced Defender]

Edit: Forgot to add the "Stay on Feet" TI.

[kurupted]

i tried your tactic, but the outcome is always the same, to much passing around, no objective with the ball and few goals scored :c

[Ivan787]

18 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

After carefully watching the 1st half of the City vs Wolves game, this is how I would replicate Pep's tactic (based on this particular match, with Jesus as the lone FW):

Formation - 4141 DM Wide

Mentality - Positive

Roles & duties setup:

PO

Wsu                                           TQ

APMatt         MEZsu

DLPsu

IWBsu    CDde    BPDco     IWBde

SKsu

Team instructions:

In possession - play out of def, slightly shorter passing, work ball into box, be more expressive, low crosses

In transition - counter, counter-press, distribute (quickly) to CBs

Out of possession - much higher DL, higher LOE, more urgent press, use offside trap

Player instructions:

AML - Wsu (Sane) - roam from position

ST - PO (Jesus) - move into channels

 

 

I watch the match yesterday, as you said, and I see some things that honestly I found very difficult to replicate.

There are some players whose roles are "fixed", and are Ederson, CBs, Fernandinho, Striker.

The others are "variable" depending on how each relate to others. Let me explain what I mean. Take the left chain, the triangle formed by (YEsterday) Danilo, Sanè and D. Silva. When Sanè plays on the byline Danilo acts as IWB and D.Silva is in the half space (I'm doubtful about Mez role....) but some minutes after Sanè was cutting inside, Silva was sitting deep acting like a true CM(s) and Danilo was overlapping. What happens? What do I lost? This is a kind of dynamic configuration where you always have one player wide, one player giving support and one player in the half-space. But they are not the same players.....I'm trying almost everything but I can't replicate this.

Than Sterling....I think he has definitely a free role. Yesterday evening you can see him on the right, than on the left, than occupying the space Gabriel Jesus left open....

I agree with you about using 4-1-2-2-1 lineup. In my first experiment I was trying 4-1-4-1 but now I start to have a lot of issue about wingers and Mez(s) who are often higher than wingers.

[Amarante]

25 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I watch the match yesterday, as you said, and I see some things that honestly I found very difficult to replicate.

There are some players whose roles are "fixed", and are Ederson, CBs, Fernandinho, Striker.

The others are "variable" depending on how each relate to others. Let me explain what I mean. Take the left chain, the triangle formed by (YEsterday) Danilo, Sanè and D. Silva. When Sanè plays on the byline Danilo acts as IWB and D.Silva is in the half space (I'm doubtful about Mez role....) but some minutes after Sanè was cutting inside, Silva was sitting deep acting like a true CM(s) and Danilo was overlapping. What happens? What do I lost? This is a kind of dynamic configuration where you always have one player wide, one player giving support and one player in the half-space. But they are not the same players.....I'm trying almost everything but I can't replicate this.

Than Sterling....I think he has definitely a free role. Yesterday evening you can see him on the right, than on the left, than occupying the space Gabriel Jesus left open....

I agree with you about using 4-1-2-2-1 lineup. In my first experiment I was trying 4-1-4-1 but now I start to have a lot of issue about wingers and Mez(s) who are often higher than wingers.

The long and short of it, you cant replicate that type of movement. What you need to do is replicate the philosophy of Pep. How his players move and change position and roles depending on how the match is can't be done at this moment. 

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Let me explain what I mean. Take the left chain, the triangle formed by (YEsterday) Danilo, Sanè and D. Silva. When Sanè plays on the byline Danilo acts as IWB and D.Silva is in the half space (I'm doubtful about Mez role....) but some minutes after Sanè was cutting inside, Silva was sitting deep acting like a true CM(s) and Danilo was overlapping. What happens? What do I lost? This is a kind of dynamic configuration where you always have one player wide, one player giving support and one player in the half-space. But they are not the same players.....I'm trying almost everything but I can't replicate this.

I fully understand what you mean. And that's why I used the "Be More Exp" TI and gave a number of players freedom to roam, either via their specific roles or their PIs (e.g. Sane). But in order to play this adventurous kind of football, you need top-class players, who aren't just technically great but also tactically (reading the game "perfectly" and knowing what they are supposed to do in any given situation). And after all, that's why people should not try to replicate a tactic played by a certain team when managing some other team (unless the two are of extremely similar quality and reputation).

 

25 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Than Sterling....I think he has definitely a free role. Yesterday evening you can see him on the right, than on the left, than occupying the space Gabriel Jesus left open...

Hence trequartista on the flank 

Btw, in the second half, with each substitution, various "tweaks" were made by Pep, especially in terms of roles and duties. For example, when De Bruyne came in, he played as a RPM in the MCR position, while B. Silva became a MEZ on attack in MCL. Later on, Aguero was basically an F9, unlike Jesus who (most of the time) played on the shoulder of the last defender. Walker switched from IWd to WBs. And so on...

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Amarante said:

The long and short of it, you cant replicate that type of movement. What you need to do is replicate the philosophy of Pep. How his players move and change position and roles depending on how the match is can't be done at this moment. 

Exactly. Replicate his principles - which with City are two attackers in the half spaces, one central and two wide. You can make that in numerous way with a lot of variety. One could be this;

Striker

WPMa - CMs/DLPs - Mez on attack - Wa 

DMd/s 

FBa - cd - cd - IWBs. 

[Gegenklaus]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

... you need top-class players, who aren't just technically great but also tactically (reading the game "perfectly" and knowing what they are supposed to do in any given situation). And after all, that's why people should not try to replicate a tactic played by a certain team when managing some other team (unless the two are of extremely similar quality 

Of course you can try replicate City with a different team and players. What that gives you is a challenge and a template of what player types you need. It automatically gives your save with a goal that is more than just winning titles. I almost always done that. Find a historic team, figure out their play style, find or evolve the players towards that. But of course you have to manage expectations. You wont get there in one season. 

Trying to find a similar player like de Bruyne is damn hard, but a lot of fun.

[kurupted]

Anyone struggling to score goals with that kind of tactic?

In my experience, when i play a Mezzala-Attack and a RPM i think the Mezzala becomes to isolated in the half-space and never contributes to the build-up, thats what i dont link.

The other think is, when you dominate possession, your players keep passing around to each others, and no one tries a run behind the defense

[kurupted]

17 horas atrás, Gegenklaus disse:

Exactly. Replicate his principles - which with City are two attackers in the half spaces, one central and two wide. You can make that in numerous way with a lot of variety. One could be this;

Striker

WPMa - CMs/DLPs - Mez on attack - Wa 

DMd/s 

FBa - cd - cd - IWBs. 

And one thing, i really dont like when someone tries to use Wingers when trying to replicate Guardiola style.

In FM, a Winger, hugh the touchline, precisely what we want, but a Winger is a very limited type of player, he just stays in the line, crosses when he cans and thats all, when you play a Winger on support the only thing that he does is crossing, he almost never tries to enter the opposite box. Worse than that, when ou play a Winger on attack duty, they become too isolated, trying to do their own play, 90% of the times dribbling their way out and they usually "forget" there are 10 players behind him.

I think that the Inside Forwards replicate more the movements of the 2 wingers, with PPM's and TI's, you can make the inside forward hugh the line, and when he has the ball, he enters the opposite box. Some games you can notice Sané playing more of a winger and Mahrez more an IF.

Another thing, what i noticed, when you play in 4-1-4-1, i think the midfield becomes to much far up when the wingers are not. As you can see in City build-up videos, the wingers are already up in the pitch, hugh the line, and the midfields are often behind them building the play, in 4-1-4-1, i dont think that replicates that kind of style.

 

[Gegenklaus]

4 minutes ago, kurupted said:

And one thing, i really dont like when someone tries to use Wingers when trying to replicate Guardiola style.

In FM, a Winger, hugh the touchline, precisely what we want, but a Winger is a very limited type of player, he just stays in the line, crosses when he cans and thats all, when you play a Winger on support the only thing that he does is crossing, he almost never tries to enter the opposite box. Worse than that, when ou play a Winger on attack duty, they become too isolated, trying to do their own play, 90% of the times dribbling their way out and they usually "forget" there are 10 players behind him.

I think that the Inside Forwards replicate more the movements of the 2 wingers, with PPM's and TI's, you can make the inside forward hugh the line, and when he has the ball, he enters the opposite box. Some games you can notice Sané playing more of a winger and Mahrez more an IF.

Another thing, what i noticed, when you play in 4-1-4-1, i think the midfield becomes to much far up when the wingers are not. As you can see in City build-up videos, the wingers are already up in the pitch, hugh the line, and the midfields are often behind them building the play, in 4-1-4-1, i dont think that replicates that kind of style.

 

Sure, I get what your saying, but my above suggestion isnt a copy of City, it's a copy of their attacking shape made by player roles to create some variety. You are right, if you were to copy Man City 1:1 you might do it differently. Like using Inverted Winger instead of the winger role, but with the strong foot to the touchline and so on.

My point was that City has a attacking structure, the WM-shape. can be made with numerous combination of roles, shapes and duties.

[kurupted]

Agora, Gegenklaus disse:

Sure, I get what your saying, but my above suggestion isnt a copy of City, it's a copy of their attacking shape made by player roles to create some variety. You are right, if you were to copy Man City 1:1 you might do it differently. Like using Inverted Winger instead of the winger role, but with the strong foot to the touchline and so on.

My point was that City has a attacking structure, the WM-shape. can be made with numerous combination of roles, shapes and duties.

I currently find very hard to replicate both midfields interaction, because i see very often david silva entering the box, so i think Mezzala-A duty is good, but de bruyne rarely enters the box, but he stays in the half space too, what do you think, that he his a RPM ?

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, kurupted said:

I currently find very hard to replicate both midfields interaction, because i see very often david silva entering the box, so i think Mezzala-A duty is good, but de bruyne rarely enters the box, but he stays in the half space too, what do you think, that he his a RPM ?

He isn't one role, he is several depending on his teammates positions around him (sometimes inside forward, then winger, then midfielder/inverted wingback role). It depends of what you want to replicate from City. You can't do it all. But I would say Mez-s, more of a controller, links play a bit. But really, it depends what you have around him. Hows your setup?

[kurupted]

Like i said, i dont find the Mezzala-A and kind of playmaker type.

I use a Sweeper Keeper on Support, 2 CD's-D, the fullbacks are a role that i change a lot, depending on the opposite formation and weakness, the defensive midfielder, well, i dont think a DM fits Fernandinho, cause i think he is kind of a playmaker one, and as you said before, there are some aspects you cant replicate in FM, so i think DLP-D fits well, but sometimes i change to HB when i face 2 defenders. The midfield, as i said, i currently use MEZ-A and a RPM-S, but i dont think they are 2 roles that fit together well, cause if i play with 2 MEZ-A i often find them very up in the pitch, so they dont contribute to the build-up, but if i use MEZ-S they dont enter the box to much, thats the problem, De Bruyne is like a Mezzala, but he contributes more to the playmaking, he stays in the right half-back, so i dont think that RPM-S fits in that kind of play, because a RPM tends to become a "magnet" and he often leaves his space, sometimes entering the MEZ-A half-space, i think an AP-S can do the job too, the AP can sometimes drop a bit to help the play, what do you think about that ?

My Wingers, well, before, i used Wingers, but like i said, i find them very direct type of roles, they stretch the defense thats right, but if you play them on Attack duty they often become very isolated, but, if you play on Support duty, the only think that they do is crossing to the area, and you know that Sane and even Bernardo/Mahrez sometimes drift into the box, so, i think IF-S its appropriate.

The striker is something i change, if i play against higher defensive lines, i normaly use a AF, trying to break down and run into space, but if i play against lower teams, i think DLF-A suits well.

The great problem is, i often dont create many CCC, they use to pass around and eventually they shoot outside the box, no one tries to do a run behind the defense.

[Gegenklaus]

2 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Like i said, i dont find the Mezzala-A and kind of playmaker type.

I use a Sweeper Keeper on Support, 2 CD's-D, the fullbacks are a role that i change a lot, depending on the opposite formation and weakness, the defensive midfielder, well, i dont think a DM fits Fernandinho, cause i think he is kind of a playmaker one, and as you said before, there are some aspects you cant replicate in FM, so i think DLP-D fits well, but sometimes i change to HB when i face 2 defenders. The midfield, as i said, i currently use MEZ-A and a RPM-S, but i dont think they are 2 roles that fit together well, cause if i play with 2 MEZ-A i often find them very up in the pitch, so they dont contribute to the build-up, but if i use MEZ-S they dont enter the box to much, thats the problem, De Bruyne is like a Mezzala, but he contributes more to the playmaking, he stays in the right half-back, so i dont think that RPM-S fits in that kind of play, because a RPM tends to become a "magnet" and he often leaves his space, sometimes entering the MEZ-A half-space, i think an AP-S can do the job too, the AP can sometimes drop a bit to help the play, what do you think about that ?

My Wingers, well, before, i used Wingers, but like i said, i find them very direct type of roles, they stretch the defense thats right, but if you play them on Attack duty they often become very isolated, but, if you play on Support duty, the only think that they do is crossing to the area, and you know that Sane and even Bernardo/Mahrez sometimes drift into the box, so, i think IF-S its appropriate.

The striker is something i change, if i play against higher defensive lines, i normaly use a AF, trying to break down and run into space, but if i play against lower teams, i think DLF-A suits well.

The great problem is, i often dont create many CCC, they use to pass around and eventually they shoot outside the box, no one tries to do a run behind the defense.

Everything matters, so what mentality are you playing on?

I am also interested in when you change the role of the fullbacks?

I think the mez-s, or maybe a CM-s with some PI's like stay wider and so on, can be good. Because the two number 8's are often quite split when they are on the opponents half.

[kurupted]

25 minutos atrás, Gegenklaus disse:

Everything matters, so what mentality are you playing on?

I am also interested in when you change the role of the fullbacks?

I think the mez-s, or maybe a CM-s with some PI's like stay wider and so on, can be good. Because the two number 8's are often quite split when they are on the opponents half.

Well, the fullbacks are a role that i change a lot because of a simple thing.

I play everytime a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-2-1 whatever), and imagine i face a 3-5-2 formation, so, i have 3 midfields against 5 midfielders, i will almost guarantee to lose the midfield battle for possession, in that case, what i do ? I use my 2 fullbacks in the Inverted-Wing role, so they can go into the midfield, doing that way a 5vs5 midfield, with that, my DM can have the ball more easily.

Imagine now the other team plays a 4-3-23 and their Left Winger plays Inside Forward, and their left fullback is a CWB(or Wing Back), they usually tend to be up in the pitch, helping the midfield, in that case the Inside Forward few times comes deep to help to win possession, so that lefts a gap in the left back, cause we will be most of the times alone, with that i can exploit that side, saying to the IF to stay narrow and my fullback will have a attack duty. After all, the fullbacks can help you with many things.

You talked about MEZ-S, well, the MEZ on suport duty helps more in the build-up, but i don't think that he enters the box too much, but i think its better MEZ-S than MEZ-A definitely. About the CM, well, i think de bruyne role is more a playmaker than it's silva, he almost never leaves is half-space area, so as you said, they both stay wider to help those triangulations helping to keep the ball, with the RPM-S i find him too much roaming around, and sometimes he even enters the area of the Mezzala, i used to play a Box-to-Box midfielder, but i didnt find that De Bruyne plays like that way. I saw some people saying that he can play as DLP-S, well, i dont think either he plays that style of game, we need to remind that he plays in the half-space too, and i dont think that the DLP goes into the half-space, i really think that De Bruyne is a AP-S, and David Silva often plays a Mezzala on support duty, cause in the build-up he still helps, and when we play Mezzala-A, he often tends to lack his support.

There was a picture of someone in the previous pages, that showed a pitch that Guardiola divides into areas, he divided into 2 half spaces, the left and the right, and we need to make sure that both midfielders dont ocuppy the same half-space at both time.

So, in the midfield, maybe a MEZ-S (stay wider, goes to open areas when has the ball, drible less) and a AP-S (with stay wider and drible less).

Remember a thing, the Mezzala (both in Support and Attack duty), has the PI "Roam from position", this can be a little tricky, cause i dont think that De Bruyne and Silva change roles and even swap with each other. Or you can maybe use Roam From Position only to the 8's.

[Gegenklaus]

8 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Well, the fullbacks are a role that i change a lot because of a simple thing.

I play everytime a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-2-1 whatever), and imagine i face a 3-5-2 formation, so, i have 3 midfields against 5 midfielders, i will almost guarantee to lose the midfield battle for possession, in that case, what i do ? I use my 2 fullbacks in the Inverted-Wing role, so they can go into the midfield, doing that way a 5vs5 midfield, with that, my DM can have the ball more easily.

Imagine now the other team plays a 4-3-23 and their Left Winger plays Inside Forward, and their left fullback is a CWB(or Wing Back), they usually tend to be up in the pitch, helping the midfield, in that case the Inside Forward few times comes deep to help to win possession, so that lefts a gap in the left back, cause we will be most of the times alone, with that i can exploit that side, saying to the IF to stay narrow and my fullback will have a attack duty. After all, the fullbacks can help you with many things.

You talked about MEZ-S, well, the MEZ on suport duty helps more in the build-up, but i don't think that he enters the box too much, but i think its better MEZ-S than MEZ-A definitely. About the CM, well, i think de bruyne role is more a playmaker than it's silva, he almost never leaves is half-space area, so as you said, they both stay wider to help those triangulations helping to keep the ball, with the RPM-S i find him too much roaming around, and sometimes he even enters the area of the Mezzala, i used to play a Box-to-Box midfielder, but i didnt find that De Bruyne plays like that way. I saw some people saying that he can play as DLP-S, well, i dont think either he plays that style of game, we need to remind that he plays in the half-space too, and i dont think that the DLP goes into the half-space, i really think that De Bruyne is a AP-S, and David Silva often plays a Mezzala on support duty, cause in the build-up he still helps, and when we play Mezzala-A, he often tends to lack his support.

There was a picture of someone in the previous pages, that showed a pitch that Guardiola divides into areas, he divided into 2 half spaces, the left and the right, and we need to make sure that both midfielders dont ocuppy the same half-space at both time.

So, in the midfield, maybe a MEZ-S (stay wider, goes to open areas when has the ball, drible less) and a AP-S (with stay wider and drible less).

Remember a thing, the Mezzala (both in Support and Attack duty), has the PI "Roam from position", this can be a little tricky, cause i dont think that De Bruyne and Silva change roles and even swap with each other. Or you can maybe use Roam From Position only to the 8's.

That's some good observations. And a good set of rules. Isn't it fun to play like that? And do you find that you get rewarded for it? :-)

AP-s and mezz-s could work, but it depends on what mentality you are playing and the overall setup if it were to be succesfull - remember the whole picture of your system, not just one aspect of it. That setup in midfield what would that mean for the whole system?

And I think the Mez-s dont roam into central areas that much. It is by definition a half space player, that's why I love it so much.

[kurupted]

Yes, the David Silva isnt a player that only stays in the half-spaces and goes into the area, he is a player that can drop a bit and help in the early build-up, the MEZ-A he often leaves the build-up responsabilities and we dont want that, but i think De Bruyne does that, he comes deep to help pick up the ball, i really dont think that 2 MEZ in the midfield can work, but i agree that Silva is more agressive than De Bruyne.

The mentality i use can vary a bit too, i play Positive when i play against weaker teams, but i play Balanced when im away.

Yes, the MEZ-S is by definition a half space player, but when i watched entire games with a MEZ-S, i see that he doesnt only play higher in the pitch, he can drop a bit. The AP-S from what i see, he doesnt enter the box to much, he rarely does i think, thats why that fits De Bruyne role. Many people say "RPM" but i think that the RPM doesnt goes into the half-space that he needs to go.

About width, i play with Very Wide, i think the width doesnt interfer with possession, but you have to go with the right roles.

[Gegenklaus]

2 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Yes, the David Silva isnt a player that only stays in the half-spaces and goes into the area, he is a player that can drop a bit and help in the early build-up, the MEZ-A he often leaves the build-up responsabilities and we dont want that, but i think De Bruyne does that, he comes deep to help pick up the ball, i really dont think that 2 MEZ in the midfield can work, but i agree that Silva is more agressive than De Bruyne.

The mentality i use can vary a bit too, i play Positive when i play against weaker teams, but i play Balanced when im away.

Yes, the MEZ-S is by definition a half space player, but when i watched entire games with a MEZ-S, i see that he doesnt only play higher in the pitch, he can drop a bit. The AP-S from what i see, he doesnt enter the box to much, he rarely does i think, thats why that fits De Bruyne role. Many people say "RPM" but i think that the RPM doesnt goes into the half-space that he needs to go.

About width, i play with Very Wide, i think the width doesnt interfer with possession, but you have to go with the right roles.

Okay, I have the opposite experience to be honest; that the Mezz-a leaves the midfield too late - but in my system I want him really high early doing build up because I use an IWB-s and a winger-a in midfield strata. But if you used the mezz-s and AP-s, how is your overall setup then - generally? And what about your team instructions?

[kurupted]

The Team instructions are pretty obvious, very wide, build up from defense, much shorter passing, slightly higher, drible less and work to box.

The problem is always the same, with this kind of tactic, i cant seem to score goals. My players pass around but no ones try to run behind the defense, and i dont know how to replicate that moves.

[Ivan787]

I'm not as good as many people that write here in translating real life movement in FM terms, so I prefer to stick to what I see on the pitch during Man City matches.

The first issue, in my opinion the MAIN issue, is about wide players, in particular the configuration with Sanè on the left and Sterling on the right. I see that they receive the ball often high on the pitch, than run to the "vulnerable channel". If you pay attention to the offensive play of City you will see that in 90% of the action the ball goes into the opposite area (with a pass or player running) across the "vulnerable channel" that is the rectangular area included between the corner of the penalty area and the six yards area. You can see exactly this in the first goal against Wolves. Also in the action that finish with penalty the pass was directed to this vulnerable channel. In my opinion this is the KEY. Sometimes the wingers cuts, sometimes the two 8's move forward. This is more or less the most important thing to try to replicate for someone who aim to replicate Guardiola style of play.

I have tried using Sane and Sterling as wingers in a 4-1-4-1 formation: failed because when they receive the ball they start to dribble to the touchline. NO! They have to cut directly to the corner of penalty area.

Than I have tried using them as WM(A) in 4-1-4-1: failed because they receive the ball too much early and too much low on the pitch. I want that the ball move up with IWB, Fernandinho and two 8's, not with a long pass (even with very short passing TI) to Sane or Sterling.

Than I have tried using Sane and Sterling as IF in 4-1-2-2-1 system, with Stay Wide as PI. In this case good starting positioning but totally failed when with the ball because they cuts inside too much early moving horizontal.

 

The second issue is about the two 8's. I don't think Mez could be the correct role, because I see the drifting wide too much.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Ivan787

[kurupted]

11 minutos atrás, Ivan787 disse:

I'm not as good as many people that write here in translating real life movement in FM terms, so I prefer to stick to what I see on the pitch during Man City matches.

The first issue, in my opinion the MAIN issue, is about wide players, in particular the configuration with Sanè on the left and Sterling on the right. I see that they receive the ball often high on the pitch, than run to the "vulnerable channel". If you pay attention to the offensive play of City you will see that in 90% of the action the ball goes into the opposite area (with a pass or player running) across the "vulnerable channel" that is the rectangular area included between the corner of the penalty area and the six yards area. You can see exactly this in the first goal against Wolves. Also in the action that finish with penalty the pass was directed to this vulnerable channel. In my opinion this is the KEY. Sometimes the wingers cuts, sometimes the two 8's move forward. This is more or less the most important thing to try to replicate for someone who aim to replicate Guardiola style of play.

I have tried using Sane and Sterling as wingers in a 4-1-4-1 formation: failed because when they receive the ball they start to dribble to the touchline. NO! They have to cut directly to the corner of penalty area.

Than I have tried using them as WM(A) in 4-1-4-1: failed because they receive the ball too much early and too much low on the pitch. I want that the ball move up with IWB, Fernandinho and two 8's, not with a long pass (even with very short passing TI) to Sane or Sterling.

Than I have tried using Sane and Sterling as IF in 4-1-2-2-1 system, with Stay Wide as PI. In this case good starting positioning but totally failed when with the ball because they cuts inside too much early moving horizontal.

 

The second issue is about the two 8's. I don't think Mez could be the correct role, because I see the drifting wide too much.

 

Im currenty using MEZ-S and AP-S, i can see that the AP can move into the half-spaces too, not only the MEZ, but the thing is, the AP rarely enters the box, and David Silva does that, he contributes to the build-up, but he runs into the box, De Bruyne on the other side, doesnt do that, he is more a playmaker, but he doesnt enter the box.

The thing with the wingers you talked about is correct, i tried Winger-S, but they only crossed and played into the byline, i tried to use IF but they dont hugh the touchline long enough, i will try now use Wingers on attack duty.

And i tried also using the WM in attack duty in a 4-1-4-1, have you tried using an Inverted Winger-A on a 4-1-4-1 ?

[Ivan787]

2 minuti fa, kurupted ha scritto:

And i tried also using the WM in attack duty in a 4-1-4-1, have you tried using an Inverted Winger-A on a 4-1-4-1 ?

I have never tried inverted wingers. I will try it.

[kurupted]

I think wingers on Attack duty enter the box with the ball

[kurupted]

Or maybe use inverted wingers on support duty.

My problem is: my team cant score goals-.-

[Ivan787]

I definitely agree that it should be enough to replicate the City approach and the City philosophy because is almost impossible to replicate exactly how they play.

But I think that any attempt to replicate them should at least be able to replicate their attacking template, as in the picture below.

Two IWBs, than 5 players on the same line.....

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Ivan787

[kurupted]

We all agree that the midfield plays in the half spaces, but a Mezzala i think it drits out wide and doesnt help enough in the early build up.

The Wingers, they hugh the touchline, and you can achieve that with a winger, but even if you use Very Wide and the respective PI, the Wingers DO NOT hugh the touchline.