Tactical help utilizing Messi

[04texag]

I need some help getting Messi involved. It's 2022 and he let his contract expire at Barca. I picked him up on a one year deal to try to win La Liga (I finished 2nd on the last day in 2021 and RU in Champions League, with a loss in the finals to Man City).

So far, he's only been marginally useful. We are undefeated and tied Liverpool 1-1 in first champions game, but he just isn't doing much.

What would be his best position and role? I have a really good young striker and Dani Olmo has developed insanely well. He can play AM LC, as AP, AM or IF. Attached is my current tactic, which is very defensively stable but just not consistent enough on offense with the firepower I have.

[FMunderachiever]

For me, i would say false 9 is his best role

[99]

Everytime I bought Messi, even in his prime years, I got disapointed. Can't seem to know how to use him fully. One time, in FM18, I brought him to Man City after the first season, so a 31yo Messi, and he performed way worse than Sterling, Sane and Bernardo Silva. 150M wasted...

[04texag]

I signed him on a free, and he fired his agent, so I got him for a decent enough deal. Which, I structured with a lot of the compensation based on bonuses for actually winning trophies. 

 

I have never really gotten a false 9 strategy to work, although I've always wanted to. 

 

Anyone have a good false 9 strategy?

[Egecann]

I would say treq or enganche cause i assume his physicals got worse. And Place him centrally not on the wings imo

[pheelf]

From my perspective, it is not just simply a matter of picking a role/duty and then the player automatically performs well. In order to get the best out of any player, you need to have a coherent setup around them which enhances their ability to play.

In the tactic that you posted, in my opinion, there are a few issues.

- Messi is quite isolated from his teammates, he hasn't got very much support coming from the fullback behind him and doesn't have a central midfielder on his side.

-  When he gets the ball as an AP he will tend to cut inside but you already have two other players that want to attack that central space (DLF & AM). There isn't an issue with trying to create overloads in certain areas of the pitch but there has to be a reason why you're doing it. For example, you overload a flank because there is a significant weakness there or because you want to draw more players out of position to free space up for other players in the team. 

Talking about the tactic in general.

- A wingback behind a winger isn't a great idea especially if they share the same duty. They are just going to get in each other's way.

- A lot of the TIs don't make sense to me. You've selected Short Passing (safer and more patient buildup play) but also Pass Into Space which is all about taking chances with passing. It also requires players having good off the ball movement in order to make runs into space to receive those passes, a lot of the roles you have selected are rather static.

You have Low Crosses selected but are playing a DLF(A) who doesn't thrive on that sort of delivery, additionally, low crosses are only really effective when attempted from the byline but you have nobody in your team who will consistently drive to the byline to deliver those types of crosses.

You have Work Ball into Box which will reduce crosses into the box but are playing with a winger and a wingback whose primary purpose in the team is to cross the ball. You have the TI to Play For Set Pieces but that doesn't really suit the overall (Tika Taka) style that you're looking to play. If I'm trying to pass through a team I wouldn't want my players falling over every minute trying to win free kicks as I feel it would be too disruptive to the flow I'm trying to create.

That instruction, in my opinion, should be reserved for defensive and direct styles of play where you know you're going to be doing a lot of defending for extended periods of time and you use it to try and get a breather and have an attacking outlet as you are unlikely to be building many opportunities from open play. Also, how exactly is your GK supposed to get the ball to your DLP with short kicks? I also don't really get how all of your players are meant to press and man mark tightly at the same time.

Less is more in my view. You should really only be adding TIs/PIs for a good reason and your tactic overall must be able to accommodate it. You need to learn how to create coherent tactics and view tactics more holistically, once you know how to do that then the answer to your question will become self-evident. 

Hopefully what I've written has been helpful to you. Good luck

[04texag]

4 hours ago, pheelf said:

From my perspective, it is not just simply a matter of picking a role/duty and then the player automatically performs well. In order to get the best out of any player, you need to have a coherent setup around them which enhances their ability to play.

In the tactic that you posted, in my opinion, there are a few issues.

- Messi is quite isolated from his teammates, he hasn't got very much support coming from the fullback behind him and doesn't have a central midfielder on his side.

-  When he gets the ball as an AP he will tend to cut inside but you already have two other players that want to attack that central space (DLF & AM). There isn't an issue with trying to create overloads in certain areas of the pitch but there has to be a reason why you're doing it. For example, you overload a flank because there is a significant weakness there or because you want to draw more players out of position to free space up for other players in the team. 

Talking about the tactic in general.

- A wingback behind a winger isn't a great idea especially if they share the same duty. They are just going to get in each other's way.

- A lot of the TIs don't make sense to me. You've selected Short Passing (safer and more patient buildup play) but also Pass Into Space which is all about taking chances with passing. It also requires players having good off the ball movement in order to make runs into space to receive those passes, a lot of the roles you have selected are rather static.

You have Low Crosses selected but are playing a DLF(A) who doesn't thrive on that sort of delivery, additionally, low crosses are only really effective when attempted from the byline but you have nobody in your team who will consistently drive to the byline to deliver those types of crosses.

You have Work Ball into Box which will reduce crosses into the box but are playing with a winger and a wingback whose primary purpose in the team is to cross the ball. You have the TI to Play For Set Pieces but that doesn't really suit the overall (Tika Taka) style that you're looking to play. If I'm trying to pass through a team I wouldn't want my players falling over every minute trying to win free kicks as I feel it would be too disruptive to the flow I'm trying to create.

That instruction, in my opinion, should be reserved for defensive and direct styles of play where you know you're going to be doing a lot of defending for extended periods of time and you use it to try and get a breather and have an attacking outlet as you are unlikely to be building many opportunities from open play. Also, how exactly is your GK supposed to get the ball to your DLP with short kicks? I also don't really get how all of your players are meant to press and man mark tightly at the same time.

Less is more in my view. You should really only be adding TIs/PIs for a good reason and your tactic overall must be able to accommodate it. You need to learn how to create coherent tactics and view tactics more holistically, once you know how to do that then the answer to your question will become self-evident. 

Hopefully what I've written has been helpful to you. Good luck

Super helpful. As a newish FM player, it's sometimes not apparent which instructions are conflicting with each other. You've helped increase my understanding some. 

 

I'm using some of those ideas to adjust my initial tactic, and I've also moved Messi to the AM(C) position to have him not need to cover as much ground. I'm trying out the Trequartista role. 

 

Any other help is very much appreciated and I'll post an update.

[Fritz13]

If  you want to use him as a AP on the right then the full back could be attacking to link up.

Cleon did a really good thread about the  Art of Posession a few year back and the above alongside a RPM in CM linked up really well.

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/the-art-of-possession-football

might mean changing the way you play but it’s Messi so it’s almost assumed 

 

[04texag]

20 minutes ago, Fritz13 said:

If  you want to use him as a AP on the right then the full back could be attacking to link up.

Cleon did a really good thread about the  Art of Posession a few year back and the above alongside a RPM in CM linked up really well.

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/the-art-of-possession-football

might mean changing the way you play but it’s Messi so it’s almost assumed 

 

Awesome, I'll check that out! Thanks

[TESURAS]

To be honest I found it really difficult to utilize some mentally brilliant players in FM19 such as Mesut Ozil

Messi in my opinion is fine you can use it as IFS or IFA before his physical attributes start to drop.  He can still be a very good inside forward.

However once his physical attributes begin to drop the best role for him is APS i believe. That makes him another Mesut Ozil which is hard to utilize.

[04texag]

Why do you think you've been struggling with strong mental players? Do you think physical players are just dominating in this ME?

[tacticalthoughts]

23 hours ago, 04texag said:

Why do you think you've been struggling with strong mental players? Do you think physical players are just dominating in this ME?

Go and play with Kessie and you will see how dominating physical players are in this ME. 

Kessie almost won the golden boot for me in my first season with Milan with goals from outside the box. Higuain scored 3 goals all season.

I won the title with Milan in the first season thanks to Kessie lol.

[TESURAS]

在 2018/12/19 在 AM12点18分, 04texag说:

Why do you think you've been struggling with strong mental players? Do you think physical players are just dominating in this ME?

For me i think a decent mental is enough. An average of 13 14.  Excellent mental attributes do not stand out in this game.

[04texag]

I'll have to check that team/player out. 

 

I've been making some progress with the tactical changes. This afternoon I'll post an update, including my utter destruction of Real Madrid this morning. 

[FlorianAlbert9]

I Just signed Messi with MTK in Hungary for free (May 2024).

He is the only exception in my transfer policy (only U19).

I can't register him for the league, but he played in the final of National Cup.

I played him as AC-treq in the first-time and like support Playmaker in second time. 1 assist and a good performance (mom with 7.6).

He wants to retire after Just one game (ok, he has 5 in pace )

[04texag]

Ok, so here are some adjustments. The attached tactic is what I adjusted to after the above helpful post by @pheelf

 

I use this tactic when I'm a clear favorite. Sometimes, if I'm dominating possession in a game using the next tactic I posted, I'll switch to this as it's a little more forward and aggressive. Messi has been doing pretty well with this one, mostly getting Key passes and creating chances.

[04texag]

Here is the tactic I've been using for some away games and for games against tougher opponents. I need to find where I got the idea, I think from a guest author on teaandbusquets.com. It's supposed to mimic the play of a real life 4231 better than the current ME does. It mainly adjusts the mid field play and also creates more space. 

[04texag]

I utterly destroyed Real Madrid this morning using the Deeper 4231 tactic above. It was brilliant.

 

I will say, that my new short corner tactic, after properly training it, has been doing very well. I tap it short, then my winger will either play a cross into the box, or pass it to Messi at the edge of the box. He's only scored one goal from here, but it usually creates space for another player. My main striker also scored one as messi was being heavily marked, and the striker was crashing the box.

[04texag]

Tactical changes have been working well. Messi stays involved, but not stellar. Others are playing really well though and we are winning. We got knocked out of the Champions league with a 3-2 aggregate loss to Man U. We are first place in la liga with 10 points clear of second at the beginning of April.

Messi has been an excellent mentor to my younger players.

[Goretzka]

I'd use him False 9 with an advanced forward.

[04texag]

Well, it was a good season, we finished winning La Liga with 97 points.

[04texag]

Here is Dani Olmo's season. And finally my striker and main goal scorer Minervino.

[04texag]

Also, I finished the season with a final adjustment to the tactics. I dropped the two midfielders in my 4231 back to the DM slot to create more space for Messi to drop deep and get the ball and then create.  Messi, Olmo, and Politano on the right wing all ended up with decent assists stats and a lot of key passes and chances created.