Struggling with creating Tactic (no Screenshots)

[IamLooney]

Hello Everyone, I hope someone of you can help me. 

(Sorry, English is not my native language, so in advance, please forgive me for all spelling and grammer errors you may find :). 
You are more then welcome to include corrections into your answer, if you wish ) 

See bottom for Edits. 

I tried with a lot of different positions, formations, and controls, but never saw what I tried to achieve. 

For better understanding I'll guide you through my target playstyle, my thought process and what I want to achieve, and see on the pitch, after that, I try to explain, how my attempts failed, and what formation / Tactics I use. 

 

------------------------------Conditions ---------------------

I want 2 Striker on the field. 

I want to be somehow strong against counters.

I want a strong defense. 

I don't want a random pre-created downloaded WIN-Tactic, but want to understand better what and how things work. 

-------------------------------- Ideal Play ---------------------

Goalkeeper plays to Defender  > Defender passes to Midfielder (Central) > Midfielder passes out on the Wing > Winger crosses into the box > Goal. (Well, at least an attempt on the goal ^^) 

----------- Thought Process -----------

I don't want 4 Offensive Players (2 Striker + 2 Offensive Wingers), so I've gone with 2 WB, in addition to 3CBs (so either 5 defenders, or 3, depends on how you look at it)
WBs should walk down the line when in possession, and fall back, to my own box to defend, when opponent posession, to defend against crosses from the enemy. 

2 CMs, 1 BWM DE to stay back with the 3 CBs, to always have 4 defensive players, to be good against counters, 1 DLP to make the connection from defense to Attack) 

1 AM (or Engache) As some kind of controlling Midfielder, that distributes the ball to the wings. 

2 striker, 1 Attacking, 1 supporting that attacking Striker. 

 

So, in an attacking situation, I have 2 Strikers, 1 AM, 1 CM, 2 WBs (=6 Attacking) and 3CB + 1 CM (=4 Defending against opponent counters)

In defending Situation I have 3CBs, 2 WBs 1CM (=6 Defenders), and 2 Striker, 1AM, 1CM (=4 ready to counter). 

----------------- what happens ------------------

in Attacking: 

The CBs passing the ball a few times in my own half from CB to CB, WBs staying in own half. 
Then a pass to one of the WBs, wich plays a deep cross onto the other flank, completly ignoring my midfielders, and then a cross directly hitting the defender, that ends in a corner. 

Sometimes (like, every 60 minutes or something), the play is completly working as planned, wich leads to an instant goal. 

In Defending: 

WBs are orienting themself close to the box, not defending against enemy wingers. 
CBs leaving formation, to attack in the Midfield, because my BWM was near the enemy box.

------ Tactics -----

3-4-1-2 (3CBs, 2WB,2CM, 1AM,2 Striker). 

Striker Attacking
False 9
AM: AT
CM: DLP:SU
CM:BWM:DE
2x WB:AT
2x CB: DE
1x CB:CO
 

Play out of Defense
Play through the middle
Overlap left & Right 
Shorter Passing
Slower Tempo
Work the Ball in the Box

 

Edit 1: 

looking through this Forum, I think I should switch CB : Cover to Ball Playing CB, in order to play the ball from Defense in the Midfield. 

Is this correct, or would the BPCB just take the ball, and kick it directly to my strikers?

[daveb653]

Ok, I'm no expert but.......

 

Heres what I can see, you're idea is sound, roles may need tuning some what in my opinion.

 

So, for me having your WB on attacking duty may leave them stranded up the pitch a little if the opposition counter. Putting on support may make you more solid defensively and with you playing slower tempo they shouldnt be to far behind in an attack.

However with 5 (or 3) at the back this maybe a risk worth taking. If your WB's are hitting cross field passes it means either they have it on there PPM so check those, or they have no short passing options so look during games and see if they have options.

As far as i know a BWM will aggresively close down the opposite, in other words he will leave his position to seek and win the ball back, this may leave your other cm a little isolated in defensive situations.

I would maybe try another more static role in there with your cm, or have one that will give more in an attacking sense, I havent had much experience with the new roles since FM18, but carrilero may be the workhorse you could be looking for? maybe someone could confirm this?

 

I will leave the Attacking trio for an expert as I struggle with this myself, however I will see what they say and whether it matches how I would advise

 

[IamLooney]

Thank you very much for your answer

A few questions, and again, sorry for my broken english Ü

vor 12 Minuten schrieb daveb653:

having your WB on attacking duty may leave them stranded up the pitch a little if the opposition counter. Putting on support may make you more solid defensively and with you playing slower tempo they shouldnt be to far behind in an attack.

Reading the Description, haven the WB on Support, would lead to them playing crosses from midfield, instead of the goal-line. 
My Idea behind the Crosses from Goal-Line is, that at least 1 defender is moved out of the box, so there are less people in it. 

If this is halfway understandable. 

 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb daveb653:

I would maybe try another more static role in there with your cm, or have one that will give more in an attacking sense, I havent had much experience with the new roles since FM18, but carrilero may be the workhorse you could be looking for?

do you mean instead of the BWM, or as a Partner for the BWM? 

[daveb653]

I see what you mean with regards to your WB and yes, as far as I know it will make them much more attacking, however, probably less relevant with 5 at the back, they will be very high up the pitch if you lose possession, so may struggle to get back. This would mean that there are in no position to defend, as you described so may cause your CB to move out to close down the attacker. try one on support and see if he behaves better he may be better positioned defensively wise and with use overlap and a slower tempo he will still be able to provide the width you require.

 

I personally would replace the BWM, as he has a habit of just mindlessly running after the ball, plus I'm personally not a big fan of the role really. Unless your player is really suited to it, then maybe try use PI to control him a little better. Its kind of down to the player though, are they really good technically? a great passer or tackler? goot great stamina and workrate? maybe post a pic of him and people will be able to help better?

 

Also think about where your team is struggling, are you getting hit on the break (countered) alot? or are they passing through the middle? do you struggle to create chances or score? are you defenders constantly hitting long balls or putting it out of play?

[Experienced Defender]

You can make a (theoretically) "ideal" setup of roles and duties and still see your team play badly, because either: A) your players aren't suited to the roles you've given them, or B) other tactical settings (i.e. team - and to a lesser extent player - instructions) are causing the problem. And you didn't tell us on which mentality you are playing and what are your out-of-possession (defensive) and in-transition team instructions?

[VinceLombardi]

23 hours ago, IamLooney said:

The CBs passing the ball a few times in my own half from CB to CB,

Likely caused by lack of options to pass to. Either bring players back so that they start deeper (like move CM to DM) or authorize them to pass the pass longer with More Direct Passing as PI or TI instead of shorter passing TI.

23 hours ago, IamLooney said:

WBs staying in own half. Then a pass to one of the WBs, wich plays a deep cross onto the other flank, completly ignoring my midfielders, and then a cross directly hitting the defender, that ends in a corner. 

This is likely lack of good midfield options. All 3 midfielders are pretty static in what they do. Use Roaming PI to get them to find open areas to get passes, or change roles to somebody who finds space better (Like Box to Box(s), or Advanced Playmaker(a) with Roaming).

 

23 hours ago, IamLooney said:

In Defending: 

WBs are orienting themself close to the box, not defending against enemy wingers. 

Are you playing Narrow Defense when out of possession? Increase their closing down to get them to engage earlier and Mark Tighter to stick closer to players in their area.

23 hours ago, IamLooney said:

CBs leaving formation, to attack in the Midfield, because my BWM was near the enemy box.

Close down less on CB. Also use a less aggressive role for the midfielder. Alternatively pull the CM back to DM so that he defends closer to the CB.

23 hours ago, IamLooney said:

 

------ Tactics -----

3-4-1-2 (3CBs, 2WB,2CM, 1AM,2 Striker). 

Striker Attacking
False 9
AM: AT
CM: DLP:SU
CM:BWM:DE
2x WB:AT
2x CB: DE
1x CB:CO
 

Play out of Defense
Play through the middle
Overlap left & Right 
Shorter Passing
Slower Tempo
Work the Ball in the Box

I would move all 3 central midfielders back one row, so it's 2 DM and a CM. That gets them to start a lot deeper and will help support the CB early in the attack and keep them from leaving your CB in defense.

And since your attack is slow tempo, they should all have time to move forward if you give them good roles. They will be more engaged in defense, start deeper in transistion, and get forward into where you need when the attack gets to the other end. All without really changing your shape.

I would suggest, both DM as DM (s) with hold position and close down more PI. This will get them both playing a bit like a BWM in defense and like the DLP in attack. This will help support your WBs and give them multiple options to pass back to. And it should keep them from getting caught up field.

AM back to CM would be a good candidate for an AP (a) with Roaming. This will keep him near the box looking for ways to support the strikers and with Roaming should move laterally well to help support the WBs. He has a lot of ground to cover but with all the other players doing their job, he should be able to focus on his offensive duties and finding pockets of space.