Learn with help: 4-2-1-3 DM Asymmetric

[tsj]

Right. I'm having a bit of trouble this year for one or another reason. So I was thinking of maybe asking for help. Just a little at least. I tend to come up with a formation and then play the game trying to succeed with that formation. My best came was last year or maybe the year before where I started in France went to Italy and then endeed up at Tottenham. At Tottenham I inherited a fantastic DM, a great striker and found a late twenties Vinicius Junior transfer listed. Basically that took me away from the 4-4-2 diamond I had used thus far in the game and the 4-2-1-3 DM Asymmetric (L) (as the game aptly christened the tactic) was born. I never did manage to win neither the Premier League or a European competition during my four seasons with Tottenham but maybe that is the reason why I'm still in love with the formation.

So coming back to this year. Starting with said formation and making it work. That is the goal of the save. I don't need to win anything for it to work but it would of course be nice. I'll write about how this shapes up and with luck I'll still be at he club after Christmas. As the title says any help will of course be appreciated. I'm fairly flexible with regards to how the tactic should play (roles, mentality and stuff) but I want to if at all possible stick with the formation. Just so this doesn't start at a complete blank slate then I have given some thoughts to how I see it play. I'm starting out with Everton because I would like to see Richarlison start to score goals and they also offer a decent choice of DM's. As I remember from my Tottenham days in a parallel universe the left back would come up the wing, the one DM hold his place ahead of the two center backs with the right back being fairly conservative. That should give a decent platform for the second DM to join the attack with the MR playing as a winger focusing on providing crosses for the front three. One striker scoring, one supporting and the left winger either scoring or creating (Vinicius was so unbelievably good that he just did it all no matter what you told him). With todays Everton it looks something like this:

 

I've gone with a positive mentality due to the two DM's but lets see. Having a front three may work better on a lower mentality. Team instructions are to overlap on the left, counter in the transition fase and a lower line of engagement. First team instruction as Digne has good pace, stamina, work rate and crossing and should be OK due to having the anchor man on that side. The last two to take advantage of the front three in transitions and make them help out in the defensive phase. That is the idea anyway.

I'll go through preseason and give an update once the season gets underway.

 

[Experienced Defender]

In terms of roles and duties, the setup looks pretty okay to me. What I would probably change is swapping around the strikers, so Richarlison (AF) goes to the left and Tosun (DLPs) to the right, and then giving the RM (Walcott) attack duty. Something like this:

AF    DLFs

IFs                                         

                                  Wa

ACM   VOLs

WBs    CD    CD     FBs/WBd

On team instructions, I like the fact that you don't use too many of them, so you can always tweak here and there when needed 

And yes, maybe having a playmaker wouldn't be a bad idea (ideally APMsu on the left wing instead of the IFs).

 

[tsj]

First Game:

The season starts with a visit to the Emirates stadium with two new managers eager to make their mark. I decide to stay with the tactic as is with the one change being to swap the strikers as suggested by “Experienced Defender” and let it play the match out and gain some experience. There is a lot of experience to be gained. 5-4 Arsenal win. 5-4…...that is a lot of goals. I do seem to remember from previous experience that this is not typically a 1-0 tactic.

Arsenal line up in their customary 4-2-3-1 and dominate the game. The match stats indicate that Arsenal dominate the game. They out shoot us, have more possession with their midfield dominating the center of the pitch. All things that I would have expected so not in itself a problem. Looking at the shoots in the analysis tab is somewhat uplifting at least. They have shoots from the penalty box of course – they did score 5 after all – but a lot of their shoots are from the edge of the box or from outside. We have fewer shoots but it looks to be better chances. Uplifting but early days.

Arsenal score two goals from wonderful strikes outside the box. The third goal is headed in by Mkhitaryan who beats Digne to a cross. The play up to the goal illustrates potential issues with the tactic as both their full backs have it much to easy. Bernard (playing as left IF) isn’t bothered with Arsenals right back Bellerin and when the ball comes out to Arsenals left back Monreal for the cross to Mkhitaryan then Walcott doesn’t close down. The fourth a good counter and the fifth a header from a corner.

Two of our goals show early promise. One move where Pickford finds Bernard and quick play down the left gives a 4-3 advantage with Walcott open on the right. Bernard finds Walcott and three players are available in the box and Bernard finds the net. See below montage.

The second goal of note comes from Bernard receiving the ball in the middle with Walcott again open on the right and again Walcott crossing for three players in the box. See below montage.

So all in all maybe two issues 1) a little too passive at the edge of the box and 2) too much available space at the left back. Of course this also depends on which player plays of course. On the bright side the right wing is proving capable of proving for the three forwards. Now there is of course much more to learn from this game and the .pkm file is attached if you feel like adding. I'll play the next couple of games post again and then maybe play 10-15 games to get some data to look at. So far I like having the winger on support but the suggest of moving him to attack should get a go.

001 - Arsenal v Everton.pkm

[tsj]

Second and third game:

The next two games are Brighton and Newcastle both at home. Both teams play cautiously and I don’t really see enough to determine whether the two points mentioned last post are in fact general points. I’ll have to continue keeping an eye on that. I also play Bains at left back for both games so a change of personnel from Digne. I do notice two other potential issue which I note down. 1) the anchor man seems to be maybe a little too cautious – as he is often not really available in helpfull areas and also didn’t help out the left back enough in the first match against Arsenal; 2) There seems to be a lack of creativity in the team and most goal scoring chances come from the right winger.

Looking at the attemps at goal is still fairly encouraging; at least against Brighton and maybe a little less so against Newcastle especially seeing as both goals came from corners.

So far four points to keep in mind:

• a little too passive at the edge of the box
• too much available space at the left back
• anchor man seems to be maybe a little too cautious
• potential lack of creativity in the team and most goal scoring chances come from the right winger

I did experiment a little in the two games in the second half by changing the Inside forward to an advanced playmaker and switching the dlf(s) to pf(s). The basic idea being to keep one of the three forward players as the creator. It didn’t really give me that much inside so maybe something to keep in mind for a full game to see the effect. I'll try to work on the issues a during the coming matches. What I have been considering so far is to maybe to test:

• Keep the IF to AP and DLF to PF change. Not because it ultimately is necessary for the tactic as such but I think it might fit the current squad better.
• I will try to change the winger to attacked as suggested earlier on.
• I have also been thinking to try the SV on attack as oppose to the current support in order to get more support in the center.
• Maybe increase the defensive line to deny opponents too much time on the ball just outside the area. So far I've conceded three goal from shoots just outside the area.
• Change the anchor man to a DM and see if that helps with cover (goes against my understanding but well why not give it a try).

Any ideas or comments are welcome. I won't promise to try everything but most I will.

 .pkm files are available.

003 - Everton v Newcastle.pkm

002 - Everton v Brighton.pkm

[VinceLombardi]

I love what you've got going on and I think you've got the right approach. 

As something that you might want to experiment with, but isn't necessarily better, is having both DM as DM (s) with hold position, tighter marking, and close down more.

They create a nice double pivot that gets a bit more advanced, but still stays where it needs to be to defend a quick counter. Also, by having both with mark tighter and close down more, you have reduntant defenders right in front. One will step forward to challenge ball carriers while the other stays back to prevent the pass behind. And they will switch off those duties pretty well. 

This lets your CD focus more on their cover duties and not need to play that stopper role and mitigates the impact of the defensive line position some.

Just an idea. Not saying it's better. It's just a pair that has been very effective for me over the years and across a lot of versions.

[tsj]

I must admit I have almost never played with two conservative central midfielders (when only playing with two) but I guess that is reason enough in itself to actually give it a go. Thanks for the input I'll try it out. I have played somewhat ahead so I'll post about something else first and get around to the double pivot a little later. I enjoyed the original american football thread and I see you have started again. I'll give it a read.

[tsj]

Ten games in:

Ten games in. Eight in the league and two cups matches. Three wins, two draws and three defeats in the league. One cup win against West Ham and a loss against Leicester. 10th in the league one points of predicted 7th place finish. So respectable – I’m OK with that. The issues is maybe having drawn to both Brighton and Southampton and lost to Wolverhampton and Cardiff on top of the opening day defeat to Arsenal but lets stay positive.

In ten games we have conceded 16 with 6 being scored from outside the box and assists predominantly coming from the centre. Although with that many goals from outside the box maybe the assists are skewed a little.

Goals are spread out over the forwards but with Walcott miles ahead on the assists. We still really like to find Walcott open on the right. Although he also did deliver two corners for goals. Zouma is the best defender with Mina edging out Keane. Gylfi looks to be doing better than Bernard with Niasse playing an important part as the physical presence in attack. I have tried having the right winger on attack duty but ended up prefering the support duty. This may be because of the player with Walcott being fast and having decent off the ball. Below are two screenshots where you see play being drawn towards the left due to the AP (Bernard) and Walcott being open on the right. Both the chances resulted in goals and I like how Walcott stays back a little to gain space and then he is fast enough to utilise the space when the ball is switched over from the left.

I’ve been fiddling with the tactics ending up with keeping the AP, moving the SV to attack and changing the anchor man to a DM – shift back and forth between defend and support; it would be nice if he could do both simultaneously but ohh well. Last change is to dial the mentality back to balanced, increase the defensive line and increase the pressing. Basically an attemp to solve the first to points in the last post with the AP aiming to create chances other than from crosses.

So how to more forward. Well on a high level 17 goals in 8 games is fine but 13 conceded is too much. So how to solve that. I’ve been thinking about the following:

• Keep the DM on support to ease pressure in front of box
• Change the right back to defend duty to strengthen the defence.
• Alternatively I am tempted to keep the right back on support and change the left back to defend but I am a little concerned that crosses from the left will dry up.

[VinceLombardi]

3 hours ago, tsj said:

Walcott

I'm a big fan of W (s) from that wide midfielder spot. They conserve space to run into in front of them and are far from the one dimensional play of their W (a) counterpart.