Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

[warlock]

25 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The simplest answer I can give is by reading the game and the stats

Great thread, as always. Just wanted to add to the above by pointing out that sometimes (even often) it's just down to a player having a bad game. I hold to the view that if my tactics worked last week - and the week before - they ought to work now. If not, it might be that the AI is stopping us playing, in which case a tactical change is needed. But sometimes it's just my players being off the pace, in which case a simple substitution often works.

[Fieldsy]

Herne - A great thread and so much food for thought.  I'm interested in how you set up your lone striker?  I have tried different experiments but so far, just cant get the striker firing.  In the past have always used DLF (s) or CS (s) with the thinking that the support role will be a better link to the midfield etc.  However, generally what I'm seeing is poor ratings and very few chances taken or scored.  With some of the pre-set tactics, I see that the lone striker is given an attack duty (tika taka, control possession) which is generally against the overall advice that has been given within the forum in the past.  Also in the past when I have used this, the striker has indeed become isolated from the team.

Using your thinking, lowering the tempo, with midfield roles such as B2B and Inside Forward could still ensure that the Lone striker is not isolated and may have better impact on the game?  Im also playing with an advanced Playmaker next to the B2B - sorry, cant do a screenshot as at work!

[Keyzer Soze]

I think this year the DLF(a) works very well in a lone striker setup. 

He don't have the "get further forward" PI and with the "comes deep to get ball" trait he can work well with the wide players and the midfield.

[Trimisiyu]

Totally agree with the "in combination of/with" philosophy. Just to have a glimpse of what @herne79 is referring to, see below SS to how I combined my roles below to defeat Mancity in CL Semi-finals. One thing I do is that I never use similar tactic (roles, duty, and mentality always changes) every match however I use the same formation. In the below game Vs Mancity, I wanted to exploit their wings as they left it unguarded and I literally scored almost all goals via the right wing. The trick is getting the ball to the Winger and Mezzala. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Trimisiyu

[Garrlor]

On 29/01/2019 at 12:38, herne79 said:

Match Engine

I don't want to get into a big long debate about apparent ME issues, especially concerning well documented concerns with forward's movement and crossing.  Improvements to the ME can be made.  What I will add however is that the ME is very far from being "broken" as I've seen mentioned elsewhere.  Possession, reduced crossing, forward movement are still very possible to achieve in FM19 as hopefully I've been demonstrating in this thread. Just take a look at some of those goals in the videos I've linked and the stats posted. 

So yeh, the ME can be improved, but things are still well within our control if we understand what's happening and take the time to follow things through.  I really don't want that to sound patronising (sorry if it does) as I know many people do put in a lot of time and effort and still have issues.  When that happens I know it can be frustrating and so the ME can take the blame - you've put in the effort, it still doesn't work therefore it must be the ME.  Totally understandable and sometimes justified, especially when you see others mentioning the same things.  All I'm saying is don't give up hope and hopefully this thread has and will continue to give you new ideas to try out .

I would like to see more movement from the strikers and AM's in general, but my biggest gripe at the moment is the really poor decision making to be honest.

I have just played a first half against Arsenal, using some of the ideas from this thread to tweak my tactic and try and keep the ball with some penetration. I think the general theme of my tactic would be to keep hold of the round thing, pass it and move and move up the field together as a unit. This is all spoiled by one PPM time and time again, regardless of me telling the player tactically to do something, the PPM dictates that whenever Alexis Sanchez recieves the ball he will just run, full pelt either in field or straight into the opposistion full back. Despite having passing options everywhere, he will just run off leaving support floundering behind him. I can appreciate it happening in a counter (and as Rugby player, I have both watched other people run off without support and done it myself), but when you are trying to patiently build up? It isn't even the magic dribble that happens to the AI once per game where someone picks up the ball on the half way line and runs all the way across field to the opposite edge of the box leaving 6 players for dead before assisting or scoring.

[Razor940]

I like this style a lot, but I'm having big trouble doing things, because I think I understand the game, but then it's like I dont. And then I see people having no trouble using this type of philosophy and I get kind sad. 

Main problem is how to create movement and understanding how to combine roles in a more advanced way.

[Gee_Simpson]

I can never seem to create an effective possession tactic with the 4123 shape, even after trying most possession TI's. I'm just not very good at tactics to begin with tbh. I've been a fan of football all my life but I've never been one for watching it from a tactical perspective, it's always just been for entertainment purposes. So even though I love football, have had a season ticket for years etc, I'm awful with tactics. So obviously that doesn't translate well to FM. I don't stand much of a chance because I can't even spot what things are wrong in the first place. At least some people can spot things but then have trouble not knowing how to fix them, I can't even get the first part right.

I absolutely refuse to go back to downloaded tactics though, as it just feels cheap having success with them. I would even feel guilty using @herne79's tactic (once he posts the whole thing), even though I love possession football and tiki taka (I have a basic understanding of it I suppose). If I don't reach a certain amount of possession with my own created tactic, I give up. I used to use tactics like Kimz on 08 and Mr Hough's on 10-12 and loved the game but then it just became boring winning with those. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Gee_Simpson

[Rashidi]

This is a well crafted article, where @herne79 has shared his thought processes wonderfully. I am glad that there are more articles here that talk about general principles and how to apply them to the game. There are plenty of myths on the forum. For example, a well organised defense does not mean that a team is playing defensive football. A team can play a very attacking brand of football with a well organised defence, in fact that was the central tenet of Saachi's systems. Counter attacking isn't specifically a style of football that should be equated to a specific mentality, when in reality its a facet of football that can be incorporated into any tactical system. Possession football can have strong counter elements within them and they can also have strong counter pressing elements within them.

The whole goal of any system lies in how you set up roles and duties within the overall defensive shape of your side. So deciding who should defend and who should go up becomes the first thing we figure out. Then we think about how support is handled in midfield during its transitions and how those transitions will morph into attacking ones. Here roles and duties become important. And just looking at your 4123DM makes me smile, I love how the IWB can be used in FM to achieve so much.

If there is only one thing we need to remember its this : "Find the extra man in your system"

1. Get an extra man in defence
2. Get the extra man in midfield
3. Get the extra man in attack.

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

1. Get an extra man in defence
2. Get the extra man in midfield
3. Get the extra man in attack.

Hello, Pep.

[Ivan787]

Il 29/1/2019 in 01:00 , herne79 ha scritto:

Just by way of a quick follow up, below is a video of my first goal against Arsenal which I mentioned above. 

I've wound the clock back to provide better context, so the action starts with our corner.  Arsenal try to break, but luckily they are trying to break with Sokratis and he cocks it up.  Then watch how my back line calmly and patiently pass the ball amongst themselves, before pinging it to Yarmolenko.  He makes a quick break, Arnautovic comes deep to make himself available, freeing up space for the running Felipe who scores from Arnie's through ball.  Calm and patient at the back, forwards playing with flair and movement.  Obviously we don't score all our goals like that, but it's not exactly the first either.

For me, this one goal encapsulates the entire thread .

 

I quote this posts because I'm finding here a lot of useful information for my goal to emulate Pep tactics at Man City.

One of my challenge, that are making me crazy, is trying to replicate your patient build-up but not only between defenders, but also between midfielders. One of the main feature of Guardiola tactics is the ability to pass and pass and pass the ball, in order to find space, but also in the opposite half of the pitch.

[herne79]

7 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I can never seem to create an effective possession tactic with the 4123 shape, even after trying most possession TI's.

In all honesty, personally I find it easier to create possession based tactics using different formations.  The reason I'm using it here, hell the reason for the entire thread, is to demonstrate what's possible to help with ideas and generate discussion.  But if you struggle to get the movement you want, or find you need to change things up to better fit what you aim to achieve, do it .  That's exactly what @sporadicsmiles did:

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 17:37, sporadicsmiles said:

I like my striker to be involved a lot in build ups, and this is not what you see at the moment. So I just dropped him into the AMC position (I too am playing what the game is calling 4141), and he is involved, scores, creates problems with the movement.

 

[herne79]

Basic Principles

4)  Inspiration and Planning

Fail to plan, plan to fail.

I tend to find I prepare my best or most enjoyable systems if I take some inspiration from real life football.  That inspiration could be nothing more than my view of a certain player's style; something I've seen written; a picture of a formation I've found; or anything else which sparks a thought.  I wrote about this last year: 

And this is what I've done here.  I have a (probably incorrect) view of some basic Barcelona inspiration, but whether it's incorrect or not is irrelevant.  This isn't a tactical recreation, merely something to plant a seed in my mind as a starting point.  So a supportive striker but still a goal threat; some magic on the right; both flanks being goal threats; creative in midfield; solid at the back; pass the ball; press high when I lose the ball; flair in attack.

That's not say this is how I always start out.  Last year for example I took little Monza from Serie C obscurity into the Champion's League without any inspiration before hand.  But I did plan.  Which brings me into the second part of this post: planning.

If all I do is start throwing roles and tactical settings at the tactic creator, I won't have a clue how things work and will probably end in disaster.  So what I always do is think things through first.  I'll even write things down on paper first on occasion.  So I'll give you an example.

Lets pretend I'm managing Bayern.  Thomas Muller is one of my key players and I want to play him as a Raumdeuter (real life inspiration there).  So my first thought is "does Muller have the attributes needed to play as a Raumdeuter?".  Obviously the answer is yes (he is the Raumdeuter after all), but what if I'm not Bayern and I don't have Muller?  Does my wide player have the ability to play as a Raumdeuter now?  Or perhaps I don't understand how a Raumdeuter plays or which attributes might help?  Then I probably shouldn't use the role without looking into it more.

Anyway, back to Bayern.  I have the role, I have the player.  How's he going to find the space, get the ball and be the significant goal threat I want?  His attributes and role instructions will of course help, but so will the players around him.  Once he's in space he'll need the ball fed to him, so perhaps some sort of creative player and/or playmaker role will help.  Then perhaps a roaming striker who'll drop deep to hopefully open space behind the defence for Muller to run into will help.  That's making me think I may need a formation with an AMC, so a 4231 might be an idea.  And if I now have a top heavy formation, do I really need an aggressive mentality / team instructions?  If not, how is that going to impact my fullbacks who may be of use if they get forward a lot to support.  Do they have a Trait I can make use of or do I need to give them an aggressive role and/or duty?  And do I need them to provide support to primarily my midfield or my forwards as well?  But if I do go with an aggressive mentality, do I really need to give my fullbacks an aggressive role/duty?  Then I have a gap between defence and midfield, so how do I mitigate that hole and give my central defenders the appropriate cover?

Hopefully you can see how my thought process evolves.  Starting with basic inspiration of a single player, I'm now thinking about fullbacks.  It all flows, it all links to everything else.

[Icetuga]

I hope this thread don´t die because i wan´t some more input and ideias to test in my own setups, especially in this formation which i almost gave up before this thread came up.

With some things from the Pressing part i could get a better defensive display, but i still struggle to get my team press with the intensity i want. Even with my focus being on high working, brave players and so on they still seem to refuse to get in the pressing like they do in your videos so i really waiting to see the rest of it and what causes this or not.

I get possesion up without losing to much attacking thrust, but i can´t get the consistency i see in your results.

For some reason i can´t explain, i easily set up a possesion based system with consistent results in a Flat 4-4-2. But with a 4-1-4-1 i struggle to get that consistency going in terms of possesion, created chances and team pressing.  

[yorkie87]

Whilst I respect this thread and the things you’re writing. My first thoughts are 1) some people haven’t got the time to analyse the things being suggested and 2) the comments regarding the ME are infuriating. While it’s being suggested the problem could be the player (which I get it could be). There should’nt be a problem with the ME. If there’s a suggestion it’s not working then it should be fixed? 

[herne79]

Putting it all Together

I've strung this out long enough .

But if you think you're going to get a screenshot of a complete tactic I'm afraid you might be disappointed.  I've blanked out some of the tactical settings from the screenshot below, the reason for this is twofold:

1)  I have a set framework (the visible parts below) but within that framework some parts are fluid.  So I may start some matches with different settings and/or I may change something during a match.  They are not big changes by any means - a change of role or duty here, and TI change there.  I will adjust mentality regularly however.  Rest assured however I'll go into detail on all of this below.

2)  I don't want people looking at a tactic and attempt to copy it.  That's not what the thread is about and if I did post something like that I'm certain the system wouldn't work effectively because they'd miss all the changes I do.

I'll start from the top.

Mentality

This varies from Cautious to Positive.  If I'm concerned about playing Liverpool away I may choose Cautious.  If I'm feeling bullish, I'll go with Positive.  If I think I'm getting swamped in a match, I may change it.  If a team I expect to attack me are standing off, I'll attack them.  If I'm struggling to get my attack working I'll tend to turn up the risk factor a notch.  But whenever I change Mentality I always change other settings as well.  I've touched on this already - for example I'll use an attack duty in midfield with Cautious but knock it back to support with Positive.  Or I'll change the play out of defence/work ball into box.

In Possession

Commonly used Team Instructions are:  Work Ball Into Box; Play out of Defence; Shorter Passing; Lower Tempo; Dribble Less.  All of these can help with possession.  All of them at the same time is overkill, especially with the Cautious mentality (not enough penetration).  Dribble Less is almost always used as I only want specific players doing that (see below).  WBIB/PooD are usually adjusted as mentality changes (discussed previously).  Shorter Passing or Tempo (never together as Passing impacts Tempo anyway) are used typically from the start to get my passing game going and reviewed throughout the match as scoring chances do (or don't occur) or my possession is unsatisfactory.

In Transition / Out of Possession

Previously discussed.

Player Roles

STC - CF(s); DLF(s); or Poacher.  Regardless of role, additional PIs always used are: Close Down More and Roam from Position (for CF & Poacher).  Arnie will typically play as either a CF or DLF, Chicharito as a Poacher or CF.  I usually want to encourage movement in my front players to help them find pockets of space and link better with their team mates.  I'll only tend to use Poacher if I'm hunting a goal towards the end of a match (very rare).  Pressing is used to get the player involved when possession is lost to attempt to win the ball back high up the pitch.

AMR - Trequartista (attack).  Additional PIs used: Cross Less; Cut Inside; Sit Narrower.  This is a little Messi inspiration and Yarmolenko nails the role.  He attacks with Flair and Pace, is capable of playing killer through balls and isn't too shabby in defence/pressing either.  15 goals and 9 assists in 22 Premier League games.  Links beautifully with the striker especially.  Yarmo also has a great set of Traits - Cuts Inside of the right; Plays one twos; Curls ball; Comes deep to get ball.

AML - Inside Forward (s).  Additional PIs used: Roam; Close Down More; Sit Narrower.  Hopefully you've seen the runs and goals Anderson has been involved in above.  Great at getting into threatening positions and combines well with the striker and midfield.  Good Traits too: Moves Into Channels (which gives him an extra string to his movement bow); Tries Killer Balls Often (so a pseudo playmaker); Knocks Ball Past Opponent (which combined with his dribbling ability makes him lethal).

Front 3 - Overall then, you'll notice they are all set to roam around to look for space (unless I use the DLF and only when I want to make him more static).  All 3 of them have Flair to spare and both wide layers are perfectly capable of getting into dangerous positions with the ball and then making a killer pass.  Both wide players are additionally told to sit narrower - this helps with possession in this system by being a little closer to central players and gives a little more room to the fullbacks when they get forward.

MCL - Advanced Playmaker (attack); AP(s); or Central Midfielder (attack).  Additional PIs:  Roam from Position; Close Down More.  I'll typically use the AP role, adjusting duty according to mentality and/or the player used (previously mentioned).  It's a great link up role to the front 3 and whilst he doesn't usually play the final killer pass, he'll be bossing things from behind.  Roaming again helps him to be available for a pass, and targeted additional pressing helps the intended high press.  I'll switch to CM(a) if I feel we're really lacking in goal action and can provide an additional threat / runner from deep.

MCR - 90% of the time will be a CM(s); otherwise a BBM.  Additional PIs: Roam + Close Down More.  I umm'd and ahh'd about this role probably more than any other.  It started life as a DLP(s) (some Xavi inspiration) and whilst possession was good, the role felt a little too static for my liking in this system.  I could also see there was no real need for a 3rd playmaker in the setup (which discounted the RPM role) and with a player at DMC I discounted a midfield ball winner.  CM(s) with additional roaming and pressing is a good all rounder and links play well.  A BBM will occasionally be used if I want even more forward thinking, but that's very rare.

DMC - Defensive Midfielder (defend).  Additional PIs: Take Fewer Risks.  There purely to provide defensive cover and lay off the ball to his midfield partners.

DL - Fullback (s); Inverted Wingback (s).  Additional PIs: Take Fewer Risks; Cross Less.  I'll only use the IWB role if the MCL has an attack duty and I want to get an extra body in midfield.  I don't want this role overly attacking as that might promote additional crosses that I want to discourage.  Mainly there for midfield support and the occasional foray forward.  Both fullbacks (Cresswell & Masuaku) both have the trait to get forward often which can be useful.

DCL/R - Central Defender (d) x 2.  Additional PIs:  Take Fewer Risks.  A plain old defender.  No real frills but still capable of making the odd longish pass.

DR - Fullback (s).  Additional PIs:  Take fewer risks; cross less.  Similar to the DL, however this role is mainly driven by the player used - Zabaleta.  His technical and mental abilities are still second to none, but he's now well short of Pace so giving him an attack duty or a more aggressive wingback role could be asking too much of him.  Solid in defence, good in support.

Goalie - Goalkeeper (d).  No additional PIs.  I play with a pretty high defensive line usually so I could use a Sweeper Keeper.  This was something I watched out for when developing the system but honestly there was just no need.  I could give him a PI to shorten his passing but possession is good plus it opens up options, especially with all the roaming going on in midfield and up front.

[davehanson]

I'm really surprised by the Trequartista on the right wing. Never tried one in FM19. How do you find he fits in with a pressing system, does he still get through he fair share of work?

[herne79]

24 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I'm really surprised by the Trequartista on the right wing. Never tried one in FM19. How do you find he fits in with a pressing system, does he still get through he fair share of work?

As with any role, it depends on the player you use to help determine how the role plays out.

So by the in game definition, a TQ is all flair and no trousers.  It's based on the traditional Trequartista / Fantasista - Totti, Riquelme, Zidane and so on.  And so the natural conclusion is that if you give somebody the TQ role, that's all they'll do.  But there's nothing built into the role that says not to work hard, just "less" in the PIs.  So put somebody into the role with a bit of determination, work rate, aggression etc, but perhaps still with some flair, and you have a very different beast from the "traditional" view of a TQ.  It's probably my favourite AMC role, with a relatively hard working player.

[Breezybaby1]

Loving this thread and great read as I’m learning as I’m going on I usually play 4141 dm wide which I usually played a high tempo but judging from this thread my guys wasn’t able to catch up with play, would you say it’s hard to play high tempo with that formation? 

[Gegenklaus]

@herne79, how do you find your goalkeeper's distribution. I notice that you don't specifically tell him where to distribute the ball on goalkicks. Does he kick it long often or what do you see?

[Fieldsy]

@herne79 how do you find the striker movement? For the first time, I’m really struggling to get anything out of my strikers. Same formation, with an APs and b2b in midfield. Then on the left a IFa and the right either a IFs or Ws. Team instructions are short passing, slower tempo, balanced or positive. Higher LOE and higher defensive line. The striker is either a DLF s or CFs.

Just can seem to create clearer chances and striker just doesn’t impact on the game at all.

[Experienced Defender]

44 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I usually play 4141 dm wide which I usually played a high tempo but judging from this thread my guys wasn’t able to catch up with play, would you say it’s hard to play high tempo with that formation? 

To the contrary, this (4141dm wide) system can be ideal for a high-tempo game, but as with any other tactical setting - you need suitable players and also other elements of the tactic (roles, duties, mentality, TIs & PIs) set up appropriately. 

Sorry if the question was meant specifically for Herne (though you did not specify that), but I assumed you wanted to hear people's opinion in general.

[Amarante]

So i thought i would be positive for one and show that what Herne is doing is no great tactical mystery or some hidden cheat. 

 

System: 

Stats: 

The Goals: 

 

All 3 goals follow my school of thought, pass and move pass and move, then play the incisive pass when space is created because of the pass and movement. 

The third goal you might say isn't a possession-based game goal, but to me it is. In this game Stevenage was playing a very high press and was hitting me on the counter, I made two tactical changes in this game, from attacking to positive and a role change in the DM position from a dlp-s to a DM-D to stop the countering. As I use very aggressive wingbacks to provide width as I use two inside forwards, I know I was playing a risky game but i am totally fine with that.  

For all of Stevenage shots, they only had 2 key highlights and their goal came from a fumble from my Goalie. 

Now when you look at the third goal, Stevenage are pressing very high, my Gk passes it out to my CB and he waits, Stevenage commits to press and he plays a risky pass across the 18-yard line, Alfi then spots the run of my striker and plays the ball into space, my Striker who for this match is a CF-A receives the pass out wide, no worries, I have an IF-A who is now making that run across the 18 yard box to occupy the space being left vacant by my striker pulling the defense wider, he picks up the pass and a smart finish into the bottom corner of the net. 

 

The ME has a lot of faults this year and i am very vocal about them, but it is possible to recreate certain styles albeit it's a bit harder this year than previous years, granted the only problem i have is getting my strikers to score goals. 

[xnovoxx]

57 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Loving this thread and great read as I’m learning as I’m going on I usually play 4141 dm wide which I usually played a high tempo but judging from this thread my guys wasn’t able to catch up with play, would you say it’s hard to play high tempo with that formation? 

Just note that higher tempo would most likely result in higher turnover of possession so expect lower possession figures but that’s not to say it will be any better or worst. Just different.

23 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:

@herne79 how do you find the striker movement? For the first time, I’m really struggling to get anything out of my strikers. Same formation, with an APs and b2b in midfield. Then on the left a IFa and the right either a IFs or Ws. Team instructions are short passing, slower tempo, balanced or positive. Higher LOE and higher defensive line. The striker is either a DLF s or CFs.

Just can seem to create clearer chances and striker just doesn’t impact on the game at all.

I’ve personally had a lot of issues with strikers but it’s primarly the fact that I want them to lead the line while not getting isolated(which is asking a lot from a striker). My solution has been 

1) DLF(A) with ppms of dropping deeper

2) Any support with either get further forward or likes to beat offside trap

the PPMs in combination with role dictate a lot in terms of movement you achieve

note: this doesn’t mean my striker doesn’t get poor ratings at times but he accomplishes what I expect of him in terms of build up, pressing and attack.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

@herne79, how do you find your goalkeeper's distribution. I notice that you don't specifically tell him where to distribute the ball on goalkicks. Does he kick it long often or what do you see?

A mixed bag.  He can play it short or long.  I could tell him to play it short, but we have plenty of possession as it is and letting him have the freedom can work in our favour - so long as he actually connects with his intended target of course.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Fieldsy said:

@herne79 how do you find the striker movement? For the first time, I’m really struggling to get anything out of my strikers. Same formation, with an APs and b2b in midfield. Then on the left a IFa and the right either a IFs or Ws. Team instructions are short passing, slower tempo, balanced or positive. Higher LOE and higher defensive line. The striker is either a DLF s or CFs.

Just can seem to create clearer chances and striker just doesn’t impact on the game at all.

I'm fine with it.  Would I like to see more?  Sure but we're hardly struggling at the moment.  If you are having problems, consider the players you are using and the other roles around them as a starting point.  Are they all suitable?  Is your AP in position to provide good passes?  Are your IFs running into trouble too often before releasing a pass?  Have you taken out too much oomph with reducing both passing and tempo?

[herne79]

@Amarante  It's great you shared that.  Those first two goals are cracking and great examples.  The 3rd is a bit of a hail mary, but they all count .

[Razor940]

@herne79 what you think about the PI that makes the central defender go wider? (don't know the name in english)

[xnovoxx]

In the event it contributes constructively to the discussion and helps others; I thought I'd share what I tend to do while building and refining my tactic. I essentially map out the mentalities of the roles I've assigned as they have such a significant impact and I adjust accordingly to get the correct balance.

For example; I've been wanting to develop a 'Sarri-esque' style of play (I say -esque cause I don't want to lose to Bouremouth 4-0 nor in the business of replication). The below is an illustration.

*Percentage Numbers represent press intensities bar coverage

**Arrows represent forward running as instructed by role (not ppms)

My objective is to have a role specific for a 'Jorginho' type of character (Declan developed into that) through which all play flows through. In order to achieve that I have to set him as a DLP. However I want him to be static, defensively responsible and cover the hole while performing somewhat similar to the HB role. Understanding mentalities, the only way to achieve this is to have a lower mentality on the DM than the CB's.

Secondly, I want my team to press in units; Attacking Unit (front 5) and defensive unit (back 5). Mentality still plays a role here; even though the wingbacks have the same pressing %'s, they are on a more aggressive and risk taking mentality so they're more likely to press higher up. The purpose is that I want my middle 3 (DLP, and CB's) to cover the space in tandem and press as a unit to reduce amount of gaps.

It's been a successful way to map out my formations so far so hope this finds some value for others. This helps me identify gaps better and impose a balance onto my system. Afterwards, I then start considering how PPM's and stats impact an players capability of performing the role. i.e. I wouldn't put a player with drops deeper in a position where I want forward running to be a constant and since I use a Very Attacking Striker (DLF-A), I need to use a striker with drop deeper to ensure he's not isolated.

Edit: Note that it's also important to consider the implications each time you make a change mid match; whether that's requesting for an overlap or switching from positive to attacking. Not understanding the impacts will result in unbalancing your system

Edited February 1, 2019 by xnovoxx

[Razor940]

One thing Im having a hard time is controlling the long balls from my defenders. I got Burnic (DL), Foyth and McCrorie (CDs) in the back. All of them with great passing ability for defenders and great decision making, but they kick the ball to far away everytime with support from a teammate right next to them. I can't get even close 60% possession in the Premier.

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Razor940

[coach vahid]

@Razor940...this is why @herne79 dont show the tactic and tell us"play like this and youll have 70% possession vs every teams". It depends many factors...youre defenders have maybe good first touch and pass but maybe not enough composure if AI press them. Maybe you have to use PI play short for reduce the problem. Or maybe the tactic is not enough familiar for your players.

[Robson 07]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 20:56, sporadicsmiles said:

Can you comment on when and why you choose each in a given match situation? What is your thought process that leads to "right, better lower the tempo"?

Hi.  I don't think I play in same way that @herne79 does but I'll throw in a slightly different perspective on tempo / possession.

I have 2 or 3 saves that I fluctuate between and I'm doing pretty well in each but we're all always trying to become better.  So at the moment I'm trying to improve what is already a successful side and I'm paying a bit of attention to possession.  Its not much more than a bit of an experiment really but basically I neither want way too much or the opposite, not enough i.e. too little.  My concern being that if I have too much possession I am not playing quickly enough and I'm allowing my opponent time to settle into shape and shift as I meander about.  If however I have too little then I'm playing too quick, giving the ball away and having to absorb pressure.

As Herne explains they are many ways to manage possession and team mentality doesn't have to be one of the levers.  That said though I can can control my own possession with passing, tempo and team mentality.  For example, going more attacking, high tempo and direct will reduce my control whereas towards more defensive, slower and shorter will increase my control.

Going into each game I weigh up the opposition and how strong they might be especially if they are the home team.  I will set up according to that and then see how the first 20-25 mins play out.  If I'm right and the possession is fine I'll leave things alone.  If it is higher (say 60% plus) or lower (say not even 40%) then I'm going to change.  I actually have my 3 tactical slots set up in a manner that allows me to go from pretty quick, to medium, to slow so I can adapt fast.  I can also manually tweak things further if I'm still not happy.

This is just something that I'm toying with at the moment.  Its an interesting angle for me, one that I may stick with or lose along the way.  Just popping the idea in here.  Maybe it adds another (very small) facet to this conversation.

[Razor940]

2 horas atrás, coach vahid disse:

@Razor940...this is why @herne79 dont show the tactic and tell us"play like this and youll have 70% possession vs every teams". It depends many factors...youre defenders have maybe good first touch and pass but maybe not enough composure if AI press them. Maybe you have to use PI play short for reduce the problem. Or maybe the tactic is not enough familiar for your players.

I'm not trying to replicate 100%, I'm trying to get the ideas flowing and understand something I supposedly understood since fm 14, but for some reason, unlike in reality that I understand, in FM seems like it's even more deep.

My defenders have 15 composure and one of them have the trait to leave with the ball controlled (don't know the name in English, sorry). I use shorter pass and a lot of times I need to drop the tempo to get the ball going to the front. The only thing I'm thinking is the CM not having the trait drop deep, but my AP has (I'm trying to get rid of that cause I feel I can't connect with the front because of that).

And I started in January to change to this style, because It's the one I feel better and I was on a Month losing streak. Maybe that's one problem.

Other thing, am I the only one to prefer a DLP because he plays like the link between everyone? The only thing I don't like its the midfielder more advanced not roaming to another position.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Razor940

[Razor940]

Being more explicit about what I'm having trouble:

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

The only thing I'm thinking is the CM not having the trait drop deep, but my AP has (I'm trying to get rid of that cause I feel I can't connect with the front because of that)

 

1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

Other thing, am I the only one to prefer a DLP because he plays like the link between everyone?

A DLP(support) in central midfield can be a great choice.  I started out using one but changed it purely because the system didn't need 3 playmakers.

Just as a thought (and the reason I highlight both these sentences) is the player Trait (come deep) and the role.  Do you want an Advanced Playmaker to come deep regularly, which may promote that gap between midfield and the forwards, or could there be an idea to instead change the role to a Deep Lying Playmaker which may make better use of the Trait?  And at the same time change your other central midfielder to something more forward thinking (eg., CM-a or BBM) to help link to the attack.

Remember, my AP has a Trait to get forward, your AP has a Trait to go back.

[Keyzer Soze]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

A DLP(support) in central midfield can be a great choice.  I started out using one but changed it purely because the system didn't need 3 playmakers.

Just as a thought (and the reason I highlight both these sentences) is the player Trait (come deep) and the role.  Do you want an Advanced Playmaker to come deep regularly, which may promote that gap between midfield and the forwards, or could there be an idea to instead change the role to a Deep Lying Playmaker which may make better use of the Trait?  And at the same time change your other central midfielder to something more forward thinking (eg., CM-a or BBM) to help link to the attack.

Remember, my AP has a Trait to get forward, your AP has a Trait to go back.

the HB is also a good choice for a setup that is based in playing from the back. he'll drop deep, making the central defender go wide. 

In my tactic (4123 wide DM), i use a HB(d) with a DLP(s)+CM(a) in front. The DLP(s) has the trait to come deep. I used to have a MEZ(a) has my guy to link with the forwards, but i've changed to a CM(a) so that he'll stay more central.

I usually have my gk to distribute to the central defender, but if the opponent are pressing high i change the distribution to the fullbacks.

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Keyzer Soze

[Razor940]

1 hora atrás, herne79 disse:

 

A DLP(support) in central midfield can be a great choice.  I started out using one but changed it purely because the system didn't need 3 playmakers.

Just as a thought (and the reason I highlight both these sentences) is the player Trait (come deep) and the role.  Do you want an Advanced Playmaker to come deep regularly, which may promote that gap between midfield and the forwards, or could there be an idea to instead change the role to a Deep Lying Playmaker which may make better use of the Trait?  And at the same time change your other central midfielder to something more forward thinking (eg., CM-a or BBM) to help link to the attack.

Remember, my AP has a Trait to get forward, your AP has a Trait to go back.

Well, I changed positions and got Andre Dozzell up there instead of DLP. I saw some differences, and I will try this with my CD with brings ball out of defence in the same side of the AP so he can walk meters and pass to the guy higher up the pitch.

Ohhh now I understand. I didnt place the pass slide to the minimum and that was my problem. Now with much shorter pass I can do wtv I want.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Razor940

[Icetuga]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Razor940:

Well, I changed positions and got Andre Dozzell up there instead of DLP. I saw some differences, and I will try this with my CD with brings ball out of defence in the same side of the AP so he can walk meters and pass to the guy higher up the pitch.

Or you try a different distribution from your keeper right away with roles upfront.

Option 1- Distribute to Playmaker, this will get another outlet drop deep

Option 2 Distribute to fullbacks, this will make the zone your opponent has to defend wide

I would try option2 from what i see from your clips, i think the AI will often use the Avoid short distribution from GK shout (don´t know the name in english) against you.

 

And i for my side will do a last attempt to get a nice 4-1-4-1 going with a fresh Bournemouth save, i don´t know but it doesn´t feel right and like i said i can´t get the same results with it.

It seems sometimes like my version of FM19 hates 4-1-4-1 and just start messing around hehe

I normally goes sweet and nice most of the games but then there are the "cancer" games in between, where my team forget everything or the opponents score one screamer after another, and you can try and do what ever you want cause they continue happily collecting Puskas goal candidates while heavily pressed. 

On the other hand when i switched to a 4-4-2 with the same principles and the results and the consistency just clicks in and that "cancer" games don´t affect that much, thats why i can´t explain what is happening between the 2 situations.

Hell even the stats go up in record fashion with the 4-4-2(same principles) i lead every stat in the leagues last 2 saves, posession, goals and better defense, don´t get me wrong with 4-1-4-1 i am leading most stats too but not with the same ooomph. 

It is sad but i really think the ME still favors some formations over others, thats something that should be heavily addressed in the next ME or FM´s

[Razor940]

4 minutos atrás, Icetuga disse:

Or you try a different distribution from your keeper right away with roles upfront.

Option 1- Distribute to Playmaker, this will get another outlet drop deep

Option 2 Distribute to fullbacks, this will make the zone your opponent has to defend wide

I would try option2 from what i see from your clips, i think the AI will often use the Avoid short distribution from GK shout (don´t know the name in english) against you.

 

And i for my side will do a last attempt to get a nice 4-1-4-1 going with a fresh Bournemouth save, i don´t know but it doesn´t feel right and like i said i can´t get the same results with it.

It seems sometimes like my version of FM19 hates 4-1-4-1 and just start messing around hehe

I normally goes sweet and nice most of the games but then there are the "cancer" games in between, where my team forget everything or the opponents score one screamer after another, and you can try and do what ever you want cause they continue happily collecting Puskas goal candidates while heavily pressed. 

On the other hand when i switched to a 4-4-2 with the same principles and the results and the consistency just clicks in and that "cancer" games don´t affect that much, thats why i can´t explain what is happening between the 2 situations.

Hell even the stats go up in record fashion with the 4-4-2(same principles) i lead every stat in the leagues last 2 saves, posession, goals and better defense, don´t get me wrong with 4-1-4-1 i am leading most stats too but not with the same ooomph. 

It is sad but i really think the ME still favors some formations over others, thats something that should be heavily addressed in the next ME or FM´s

Eu uso a primeira quando jogo contra equipas com 2 avançados, isso e pivot defensivo. Tenho de experimentar a opção 2, mas como disse, meti passe no mínimo e já consigo manter bem a posse e vejo grandes trocas de bola.

[Icetuga]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Razor940:

Eu uso a primeira quando jogo contra equipas com 2 avançados, isso e pivot defensivo. Tenho de experimentar a opção 2, mas como disse, meti passe no mínimo e já consigo manter bem a posse e vejo grandes trocas de bola.

Olha um tuga 

Nice sometimes for specific problems little things help, most people just go overboard with adjustments and mess up everything else along with it.

[Ivan787]

Il 28/1/2019 in 13:45 , herne79 ha scritto:

Note the Trait I've highlighted.  So if using the Positive mentality (or even Balanced) and giving Jack a support duty role, there is simply no need to encourage more forward runs with an Attack duty because he does it himself already.  And because of that combination, midfield possession can be maintained better.  So in this particular case, it's a combination of Mentality, player duty and the player.

 

Could be this approach used also in "inverted" manner? I have a striker that has "Come deep to get the ball" and I'm thinking of using him with an attack duty, considering that he probably will link the midfield due to his trait.

[Ivan787]

I would use this thread as lineguide to develop my "Pep's inspired" playing style. The use of possession to achieve the target is the same, but is different the use of space. I want my AML and AMR players to stay generally wide, and the two MC should move high up in the pitch to form a "line of 4" behind the striker who should drops deep. The final target is a kind of 2-3-5 system.

Probably I will try to start from a 4-1-4-1 with ML and MR, hoping that the gap between midfield and forward won't be too large.

[Ivan787]

@herne79 Apologize me, a stupid question: how can I set my player to close down much more? If I open PI for all my players I have the same thing: not possible to tweak.

(Is italian, in English is "less pressing").

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Ivan787

[Garrlor]

So if he wasnt injured I would have Jesse Lingard to play your version of the TQ mate...

 

I have gone back to basics with my tactic. I was implementing some of the principles you spoke about, but not enough. Some things I kind of stumbled upon by myself (defenders spanking balls towards the wingers, turn off take more risks). I also set my closing down by player, but I was using some of the wrong roles for the job. A Mezzala was just wrong, Pogba especially struggled with holding onto the ball. I am concerned with his PPM to shoot more from distance, but he does have a good long shots and technique on him so I can forgive it every now and then.

I think the next are to look at as part of the tactic is training, which will play a huge role in how you play. I am already thinking of things I can implement to make sure we train the right things moving forward, ball retention, transistion, attacking movement,

So my tactic moving forward...

 

Yes, some of it is similar to what @herne79 is doing. However, my joined up thinking at the moment to start my next game is that Pogba has the gets into opposistion box trait, which means he should drive forward more. Hence why even though he is on Su he should push forward to support the attacker. Both of my Fullbacks have the gets forward trait, which means they should support the attacks well too. If they start pushing on too much I will make sure that i change them to De, to bring them back in line. 

Stupidly, I always used to use counter as well as counter press. Looking back at it now, I can see why it was a mistake. It increases risk taking and lengthens the passing when I win the ball, rather than keeping hold of the damn thing. Its the little tweaks that make the difference, and I can see that now thanks to this thread. I am going to play through a few games to get a feel for the system before I start playing with mentality and role changes. I will have to make sure that I am aware of players I put into the roles I have. If I change Fred or Pereira into the AP role I need to either make it attacking or give them the get further forward instruction, again things I wasn't really considering that much before.

I have a lot to think about, especially when it comes to training and new signings!

[forlegaizen]

@herne79 I noticed you are using the roam PI in a lot of your players.

Is that to compensate the lack of  the Roam from Position TI that was removed since that was one of the instructions recommended for a possession style in Cleon's post ?

[herne79]

2 hours ago, forlegaizen said:

@herne79 I noticed you are using the roam PI in a lot of your players.

Is that to compensate the lack of  the Roam from Position TI that was removed since that was one of the instructions recommended for a possession style in Cleon's post ?

Not really.  If the TI still existed I wouldn't be using it here as I want to target specific players, although to be fair it wouldn't have much impact on defenders anyway.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Garrlor said:

I think the next are to look at as part of the tactic is training

Spot on .

[Garrlor]

17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Spot on .

I think that is where my team are falling down right now. They keep the ball well, but struggle to make chances other than in the traditional cross cross cross sense. I think it can be rectified, but my whole team will need some serious training time. I wish to god they hadn't removed the retain possesion shout, I feel like it was one of the few things that could make your players "understand" what you actually wanted from them.

I also want to kick Sanchez in his littlle Chilean nuts. No matter where I play him, his dribble PPM just overrides everything. I even tried him as a Raumdeuter as its a role that you can tell not to dribble... no effect. I think its my biggest annoyance with FM so far, the hard coding of actions into the roles with very little scope for player customisation in some areas. @herne79 do you think that perhaps PPM's and hardcoding are playing too much of a role in this ME? Sanchez should be used to a pass and move style from Udinese, Barca and Arsenal but seems to perform like Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi had a baby who was crap at dribbling. Hell a baby who couldnt even dribble into his bib. Occasionaly he suprises me with an outstanding goal or assist, but its like a baby that suprises itself by farting. Otherwise I spend my time watching him run into defenders constantly with passing options open.

[Mitja]

15 hours ago, Razor940 said:

Being more explicit about what I'm having trouble:

Look at the MC trio how close each to other they play and their movement is all the same. Its a known ME issue, also DCs seem scared to pass slightly more risky balls. Is the right MC plsymaker?

[xnovoxx]

24 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Look at the MC trio how close each to other they play and their movement is all the same. Its a known ME issue, also DCs seem scared to pass slightly more risky balls. Is the right MC plsymaker?

1) what’s the mentality of the CBs. Personally, I always try to achieve balanced to ensure they’re less incentivesed to clear it

2) do they have ppms? I aim to train all cbs with short passing. Composure? Vision? Passing? Technique? All those play a role

3) what’s the passing range of the cbs. Note that as I mentioned, playing out of defence with shorter passing increases the back lines passing range (as per the visual)

you wont ever completely remove those kind of passes, but you can limit them. It could also just be the CB. Maybe he’s overly right footed on the left.

just some thoughts.

[Mitja]

There are passing options for sure especially on second clip. I dont think top level MCs would ever try to move like a single unit, especially the right MCs movement looks really odd. Standing so close to esch other only makes defending much easier for opponents. Human manager can find way to make sure such situations are reduced but AI ceratany wont.