Let's Talk Pre-Season

[causeforconcern]

Something that has always irritated me with Football Manager (and seems even more prevalent this version) is that your opening game against your reserves/youth side is far FAR harder than it should be. I understand your side will likely not be in tune with your tactical preferences from the get go but I'm seeing quality first teams struggling to beat a poor reserve team (with most of the team greyed out) regardless of what tactic I used. Surely if my side is poor due to learning a tactic then they would be too?

Basically, it's just a waste of a game as it tells you absolutely nothing about your tactics (as many of the tactics that failed in this game ended up being effective over the course of the season)- in fact I'd argue it's hugely detrimental as it makes you think you've absolutely cocked up your tactics when you're struggling to beat such a poor side.

What does everyone look for pre-season in their side tactically? How do you know whether you're onto something good tactically or it's not going to work? 

[phnompenhandy]

That first day back is just to get some blood running in the legs after six weeks lying on a beach.

When I start a new save I treat pre-season games extremely seriously. I start with a completely open mind about formation, best players, roles and duties and instructions. I tweak and tweak and tweak until something falls into place. I generally need about ten games to find my system. I'm watching the games closely - more intensely than the subsequent competitive games usually.

Once the season starts I'll not change the formation but I might notice some things not working and further tweak players, roles, duties and team instructions. I'll leave it until the next pre-season if I feel a different formation is required, and experiment with bedding youth players into my first team - generally 6-8 games is sufficient and I'll give the squad an extra week's holiday before reporting back for duty.

[causeforconcern]

6 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

That first day back is just to get some blood running in the legs after six weeks lying on a beach.

When I start a new save I treat pre-season games extremely seriously. I start with a completely open mind about formation, best players, roles and duties and instructions. I tweak and tweak and tweak until something falls into place. I generally need about ten games to find my system. I'm watching the games closely - more intensely than the subsequent competitive games usually.

Once the season starts I'll not change the formation but I might notice some things not working and further tweak players, roles, duties and team instructions. I'll leave it until the next pre-season if I feel a different formation is required, and experiment with bedding youth players into my first team - generally 6-8 games is sufficient and I'll give the squad an extra week's holiday before reporting back for duty.

Normally I have a pretty good idea of what will work in the season due to how I've done pre-season but I'm not getting that response in this version at all. I'll look great one game, making lots of chances with decent football, and then incredibly poor the next game without any real clear idea of what's causing it.

Admittedly I'm starting to think it's very hard to get a functional tactic without wingers/wide midfielders working in FM19 so I might have to give up this approach.

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, causeforconcern said:

Normally I have a pretty good idea of what will work in the season due to how I've done pre-season but I'm not getting that response in this version at all. I'll look great one game, making lots of chances with decent football, and then incredibly poor the next game without any real clear idea of what's causing it.

Admittedly I'm starting to think it's very hard to get a functional tactic without wingers/wide midfielders working in FM19 so I might have to give up this approach.

I expect you like to play fancy football with fancy teams. I'm a lower league manager where the players are rubbish, so you never need to blame the ME or coding or anything - the worse the football the greater the pleasure.

[craiigman]

Then stop playing it, you don't have to, you can say no to the assman. I stopped playing them a long time ago when I noticed it was the source of pointless injuries. They don't add anything. If I want to take a look at the reserves/youth I'll schedule it in later down the line, or just watch one of their friendlies.

[causeforconcern]

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

I expect you like to play fancy football with fancy teams. I'm a lower league manager where the players are rubbish, so you never need to blame the ME or coding or anything - the worse the football the greater the pleasure.

I never bother taking the big sides but I don't really play with the really lower league sides either. I've always quite liked starting in the second division in Spain/Italy/France/Germany with a mid table club and try build them up. Find that gives me an opportunity to still eventually sign some talent I watch in real life but not get too bored too quick.

Have to say though, I'm struggling with this version so far and instead of it being enjoyable finding out new ways to improve I'm finding it a slog.

[causeforconcern]

1 hour ago, craiigman said:

Then stop playing it, you don't have to, you can say no to the assman. I stopped playing them a long time ago when I noticed it was the source of pointless injuries. They don't add anything. If I want to take a look at the reserves/youth I'll schedule it in later down the line, or just watch one of their friendlies.

Eh, it's more an issue with the match engine. What decent club would struggle to beat their youth team if they set up in the same way? Doesn't make any sense.

[sporadicsmiles]

17 hours ago, causeforconcern said:

Something that has always irritated me with Football Manager (and seems even more prevalent this version) is that your opening game against your reserves/youth side is far FAR harder than it should be.

I never have any issues beating my youth side, for the most part. It is a good game to have a look at my players, and get some fitness. You can always cancel the match, or say you do not want it.

17 hours ago, causeforconcern said:

What does everyone look for pre-season in their side tactically? How do you know whether you're onto something good tactically or it's not going to work? 

You do not look for results, you look for what the team is doing. Are your side playing how you want them to play? How are the players interacting? Are you seeing the things you want to see? What things do you see over and over again, that you do not like.

You can do this for various different tactical ideas you have. The most important thing is that results do not really matter, performances matter. Getting players to full fitness. Getting some moral. 

[causeforconcern]

On 03/02/2019 at 04:57, sporadicsmiles said:

I never have any issues beating my youth side, for the most part. It is a good game to have a look at my players, and get some fitness. You can always cancel the match, or say you do not want it.

You do not look for results, you look for what the team is doing. Are your side playing how you want them to play? How are the players interacting? Are you seeing the things you want to see? What things do you see over and over again, that you do not like.

You can do this for various different tactical ideas you have. The most important thing is that results do not really matter, performances matter. Getting players to full fitness. Getting some moral. 

Obviously, but the point is that you'd almost never see a youth side cause a senior side struggling. Your youth side is set to mirror your tactics by default so if I'm struggling to adapt then surely the youth team would struggle too- which would mean it should be a very comprehensive victory most times out. You see often here, when people post their results, that that isn't the case though. The question is, why?

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, causeforconcern said:

Obviously, but the point is that you'd almost never see a youth side cause a senior side struggling. Your youth side is set to mirror your tactics by default so if I'm struggling to adapt then surely the youth team would struggle too- which would mean it should be a very comprehensive victory most times out. You see often here, when people post their results, that that isn't the case though. The question is, why?

The kids are motivated to impress their manager; the first team are still lary from their holidays and don't put in a serious effort.

[sporadicsmiles]

29 minutes ago, causeforconcern said:

Obviously, but the point is that you'd almost never see a youth side cause a senior side struggling. Your youth side is set to mirror your tactics by default so if I'm struggling to adapt then surely the youth team would struggle too- which would mean it should be a very comprehensive victory most times out. You see often here, when people post their results, that that isn't the case though. The question is, why? 

Motivation? I mean, I would not be very motivated to play a bunch of kids. This is another super important thing to remember about pre-season. In general your team will not be as motivated as it will be in the regular season. Likewise, neither will your opponent. This is why you should not take winning games as important in pre-season, but the performance as a whole. Fitness? Since it is usually the first game you play. Like I said, I rarely struggle with this, in my most recent pre-season I beat my reserves 3-0.

I also suspect, but do not know for sure, that smaller teams will be more motivated in preseason than bigger ones. It makes intuitive sense that Stockport County will be more fired up to play Real Madrid in a friendly than vice versa. Or your youth side will be more fired up and trying to impress than your seniors. Like I said, I do not know that this is true, but it makes intuitive sense.

By the way, one trick I use so I do not have to play my own formation is to simply enter the match with a different one, and switch before the game. The AI seems to copy the tactic you enter the match with, but will not always mirror you. So if you have a tactic you want to try, start the match that way so your youth side uses it, and then switch to your regular one. Or, what I normally do, is use a formation that has caused me trouble in the past so I can try various things to try to circumvent these problems.

[Snorks]

Why is everyone calling it a 'Youth Side'? This is the u23s we are talking about - the 'First choice 11' in the u23s should all be pretty damn close to breaking into the first team anyway - if at one of the bigger clubs. I see it as a 'reserves team' - like in the old days lol. You can tweak the selections a bit if you take control of the game, allowing some of the first team to play in the u23 team and vice versa - just to mix it up a bit.

As for playing that fixture two days after joining a club, I;m not entirely sure of the benefit, although I don;t ever remember an injury from it, at least , not one that was more than a few days. But hte highlights give me a good idea of how the home and away kits look!

I usually play it, but don;t watch it, leave the AssMan in charge. For me it is simply a kick-about to get the bodies moving again, get a couple of Conditioning points  on their profiles. 

Pre-season itself though is a different matter - I go for 9 fixtures intially, with a minimum 10 day break before first competitive fixture. These games are purely about tactic familiarity and fitness in my first season. Subsequent seasons, unless I am changing to a new tactic, they are purely for fitness and match conditioning. 

Fixtures set for Weds and Saturday - not fussed whether home or away but prefer home for the revenue (especially if at a smaller club). 3 games against higher rep teams, 3 against similar, and 3 against weaker teams. Don;t bother about the results, although I try and stack the 'easier' games towards the end - morale is higher after a couple of good wins.  Heavy rotation with selection based almost purely on Match Condition. Lower condition puts you in the starting line up. Substitutions also selected on condition with each position covered by a 'pair' of players. 9 games is more than enough to get full conditioning with a squad of 25.

The ten day break before the first game of the season gives me room to slip in another friendly if there is a tactical tweak I need to play with, but isn't so long that players lose conditioning points.

Training in the last two weeks of pre-season would pretty much be tactical focused.

[sporadicsmiles]

10 hours ago, Snorks said:

Why is everyone calling it a 'Youth Side'?

Well, at least for me, I like to take the most promising reserve players into the first team squad for the preseason. And promote some of the U18 squad up to have a look at them in friendlies. This is why I think about it as playing the kids, because it is what I do. A good preseason for a young reserve player can see them get called up to the first team squad and start at least 5 games the following season. Obviously the players in the game do not know this, but I love a bit of consistent role play for my manager.

[Snorks]

12 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Well, at least for me, I like to take the most promising reserve players into the first team squad for the preseason. And promote some of the U18 squad up to have a look at them in friendlies. This is why I think about it as playing the kids, because it is what I do. A good preseason for a young reserve player can see them get called up to the first team squad and start at least 5 games the following season. Obviously the players in the game do not know this, but I love a bit of consistent role play for my manager.

I get it, I really do - maybe I am just more old school than  I thought. 

Still think  in this sport, 22-23 yr olds are hardly the 'youth' of the game. If the life of a footballer say., goews from 16yrs old to 35yrs old - they are approaching middle-age.