Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[Imperator77]

Thanks for the reply WWfan. I will try that approach.

Another thing I forgot to ask about is the marking system described in TT&F. Man marking seems to be the prefered way, but is it any idea at all to employ man marking if your players are weak at marking? For preimiership teams I would assume that a player with marking 15+ is needed to employ this way of defending?

[PhroX]

IAnother thing I can not get arround is the OI settings. Right now as mentioned I'm playing Blackburn. My defender and DMc can't get close to them. Tugay sprays ball from a deep position, mostly wide. I've asked Diarra to man mark him tightly, but he does not do it.

Just a suggestion that I've had some luck with in these situations. As Tugay is playing from a deep position, instead of having Diarra man-mark him, have the MC(a) do it. With the higher mentality and closing down, the MC(a) is more likely to be in a position to get close to the opposition player. He's likely not as good at tackling or marking, but it's still often enough to disrupt a playmaker. This also leaves your MC(d) free to pick up opposition runners.

[simonbyrneno.4]

I'm playing Rooney and Berbatov up front except i'm not really i'm playing Rooney at AMC and Berbatov as a lone striker. I'm using Berbatov as the striker with lower attacking mentality and least attacking freedom but with Rooney with alot of bot but it doesn't seem to be clicking. Would you's recommend that i swap their cf and mentalities around, or put Rooney up top so its two up front or any other suggestions?

wwfan's reply to googoo56's post interests me in the method that he's trying to implement but i'm struggling trying to get my head around how to implement it in my game. Any chance anyone could try explain it to me?

[Sir_Liam]

A great read again. I always find I can learn something from TT&F each year, and I feel I have again.

[NicoPalm]

Great read ... I have spent my entire day at work going through it and I can't wait to get back home to try out the new ideas. A few questions if I may;

Firstly, given the frameworks you have created (standard, attack, defence, close out ... ) has anyone gone away and created these precise formations and uploaded them anywhere, or are these included in the download?

Secondly, is having three free roles in your team not too much? Which of the three becomes the 'playmaker' (if indeed you tick the playmaker box). Is it more effective to have a forward or central mid as your playmaker? I'm playing in the Championship so don't want to over complicate things!

Cheers!

[Imperator77]

4: Try to swap around the forwards' instructions. If neither are scoring, look at playing the FCd with FCa mentlaity but FCd settins, and have the other striker running into space from deep. From my experience, they both work, but certain striker combinations work better with option one and others with option two.

I've tried this a bit. Have not seen very much difference. The reason is the lack of support from the mca and wingers. When playing standard the mca and wingers mostly opt for sideway and backward passes. They get closed down quickly and do not try to get the ball forward. The only steady supply the strikers get, is from the goalkeeper hoofing the ball forward. When in possession my team plays nice until they get about 1/4 into the opositions half. Then the foreward movement will stop and the ball will be played sideways, backwards or lost.

[mephistopheles]

I have just finished reading the entire document in detail. I have really ahd amazing fun. It is a great document and quite exhaustive. Special thanks goes to wwfan and all others who have contributed to this wonderful piece.

I already started applying 4-4-2 Bands of Two (Alex Ferguson style) Standard tactics and my etam (Galatasaray) eliminated Juventus in the Champions League qualification game. I had reasonably good results before I used the tactics but this tactic helped me a lot to control the game (especially in terms of flowing game and ball possession). I have Paloschi and Saivet upfront. They are a deadly attacking pair I must say. I use Paloschi as FCa and Saivet as FCd and it works perfectly.

I have only one quick question about the numbers in the manual. You mention about numbers ranging from 4 to 19 (or 0 to 20 I am not sure). How do these numbers work exactly together with sliders? I couldn't find this info in the document and sliders. It is realted to sliders of course but how? I assumed the leftest end of a slider (let's say mentality) is number 0. And then I increased it by one notch and it is Number 1. Then I could come to Number 19 at max. The middle one seems to be Number 10. However if you say the leftest end is 0 and every notch is "+1" then the rightest end should be 19. That's how I understood it and how I implemented it. But I feel I might be worng. COuld please someone confirm or clarify? Thank you.

[AvatarST]

The leftmost is 1, and rightmost is 20 for all sliders.

The exception for this is team mentality (not to be confused with individual mentality) that has two more notches, 0 (Ultra Defensive) and 21 (All-out attack), I think.

[mephistopheles]

Thanks a lot mate.

[wwfan]

I've tried this a bit. Have not seen very much difference. The reason is the lack of support from the mca and wingers. When playing standard the mca and wingers mostly opt for sideway and backward passes. They get closed down quickly and do not try to get the ball forward. The only steady supply the strikers get, is from the goalkeeper hoofing the ball forward. When in possession my team plays nice until they get about 1/4 into the opositions half. Then the foreward movement will stop and the ball will be played sideways, backwards or lost.

That will be something to do with mentality, free roles, passing length, tempo, team width, crossing instructions or a combination of all. It might be your individual mentalities are too low, not enough midfielders are roaming and thus opening space, the passes are too short or hit too carefully and slowly and thus moves peter out as players run out of options, width is too narrow which means the forwards can't find any space or your wingers aren't working the flanks well and thus not attempting to get to the byline and put in crosses.

Great read ... I have spent my entire day at work going through it and I can't wait to get back home to try out the new ideas. A few questions if I may;

Firstly, given the frameworks you have created (standard, attack, defence, close out ... ) has anyone gone away and created these precise formations and uploaded them anywhere, or are these included in the download?

Secondly, is having three free roles in your team not too much? Which of the three becomes the 'playmaker' (if indeed you tick the playmaker box). Is it more effective to have a forward or central mid as your playmaker? I'm playing in the Championship so don't want to over complicate things!

Cheers!

The tactics we have included are generic Band of Two tactics and provide a good starting point, although they will need to be tweaked to suit your team and pitch size. Three free roles is fine and probably necessary at the highest level when playing against entrenched defences. However, at lower league level you'd probably reduce to one max and play simple percentage football.

[Imperator77]

That will be something to do with mentality, free roles, passing length, tempo, team width, crossing instructions or a combination of all. It might be your individual mentalities are too low, not enough midfielders are roaming and thus opening space, the passes are too short or hit too carefully and slowly and thus moves peter out as players run out of options, width is too narrow which means the forwards can't find any space or your wingers aren't working the flanks well and thus not attempting to get to the byline and put in crosses.

Hehe, thank's for the reply. That means that at the moment, pretty much everything is wrong. Not sure where to start making changes when things are like that.

I've just played a game at home where I went for the standard set. From what I could see I played to deep from the start because the opponents fiered long shots at every oportunity. I also notice that my central midfielders could not get in touch with their opponents even though they where insructed to mark them. My wingers could not get in touch with opposing fullbacks so I upped the dl a couple of notches. This pretty much made my central midfield able to close down and mark their targets. Still the wingers could not do any effective defending and the opposing fullbacks started to fire crosses from deep. I raised the mentality for the wingers a couple of notches, and got slight contact and where able to stress the fullbacks. The assistant started to complain about big gaps and I fixed that. In the end I got things about right defensive wise, but then they where able to play over my defence and scored twice before I could do very much.

So doing all those things I got exposed to long balls over the defence to fix the other issues mentioned. I could not get the right ballance and keep the assistant manager happy about gaps. I might trust him to much?

[wwfan]

Sounds like you are tweaking things on the fly rather than being focused on a game plan prior to each match. That is going to cause chaos. I'd only increase or decrease d-line and then use OI to target players who are causing you problems.

[Imperator77]

I've been tweaking on the fly in some games, and it causes chaos as you say. I think I just have to play on and test things, as I have to learn what to expect from what I have planned. At the moment things I plan do not turn out the way I thought.

[Imperator77]

From the TT&F document:

"The
 ‘Close
Down
Rarely’
OI
 should
 be
 employed
 against
 quick
 players
who
 can
 use
 their


pace
 to
 outflank
 heavy
 closing
 down
 instructions
 but
 don’t
 have
 the
 technical


skills
 to
 pose
 much
 threat
 in
 the
 final
 third"

What if this player is a striker? Would it be sensible to give him room? I would think a player like Marlon Harewood fits this bill. He's not the most technical striker, but quick and strong. Would not close him down rarely give him room to fire shots at goal?

Is closing down rarely the same as choosing 'never' or 'no specific instructions'?

[AlexWizard]

I want to comment on 2 things that brilliant.

1. This tactics project looks fantastic, it's a great piece of work, well done you guys.

2. I've just posted after a guy from Phnom Penh in Cambodia. Brilliant.

[Skoolblowsme]

I've been experimenting with Justified's suggestion of a reversed FCd/FCa. Most settings stay the same, but the FCd plays with a higher mentality and no FWRs (certainly for standard/attacking tactics) and the FCa plays with the lower mentality and FWRs mixed or often, running onto knock downs from a deeper position. It has been working wonders for the Ashton/Bellamy partnership at West Ham and Berbatov/Rooney at Man Utd. It could be worth a try for all those struggling with scoring goals.

I wouldn't say I'm completely struggling to score goals, but I do get my fair amount of 1-0 wins. My defense is amazing so no problems there. I play Berba at FCa and Rooney at FCd, but what you're saying is basically switch the mentality of the two, and from your other posts take off Berba's free role, and give it to the wingers?

[Rolf Harris]

all i can say is WOW!!

That is some 'serious' commitment to the cause!!

Going to print this 'thesis' of FM tactical management off and use it in my Everton game...

Thanks heaps! OUTSTANDING job!!

[phnompenhandy]

I played the first 15 games of the season with my own tactical settings, but by the end the players hadn't blended and the tactics weren't working. Att hat point I elected to study the TT&F .pdf manual and immediately realised that I'd got the mentalities all muddled. With the appropriate adjustments in place the impact was immediate - suddenly the play is sweet and goals are going in.

Big Richard, Gareth et. al.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

all i can say is WOW!!

That is some 'serious' commitment to the cause!!

Going to print this 'thesis' of FM tactical management off and use it in my Everton game...

Thanks heaps! OUTSTANDING job!!

Here, here.

This guide = "FM09 for Dummies"

wwfan, "tek a boo sun!"

[vasilli07]

wwfan, i got a question not really related to the tactics. After setting up the a player(eg a box to box midfielder), how do i save it and make that into a default to be used in the my other games? Hope you or anyone here who knows can help. Thanks alot.

[Anderson 8]

Thanks very much just took a hour or so to make a tactic

Can anyone tell me whats best with corners and such like settings for them please

Thanks again

[Imperator77]

A couple of more questions from me.

Firstly, I use one strong and one quick striker. The strong striker do win some headers in every match and knocks the ball nicely forward. Problem is that the quick striker is to far away from him to utilize theese knock downs. They can be as much as 20-25 meters apart. So when the quick player reacts he's to far away to do any damage. What can I do to narrow down the gap between them? This happens in both the standard and attacking sets. Is it down to width? Oposing teams who use strong/quick combination will have the two strikers much closer.

When using the attacking set against poor oposition my players become more or less static. They will be picked up and marked by oposing players easy. If my keeper starts play with a short pass to a fullback he will have no one to pass to because the attacking minded players have gone up the filed and are marked. Usually end up with a hoof. This happens to most of the defensive minded players. Either they hoof the ball, or they pass to the keeper. My team will dominate possession, but are rarely able to utilize it to create chances or goals. The players on free roles also get caught up and marked effectivley.

[Tafse]

Thanks very much just took a hour or so to make a tactic

Can anyone tell me whats best with corners and such like settings for them please

Thanks again

For inswinging corners: Mass your defenders at the goalkeeper and aim it to the 6 yard area. Rest attack from deep/stand at far post.

For outswinging corners: Defenders attack from deep and aim it to the penalty area. Rest attack near/far post.

[Anderson 8]

Thankyou

[Tafse]

Having a very skilled corner taker helps a lot though

[RobinGoodey]

A couple of more questions from me.

Firstly, I use one strong and one quick striker. The strong striker do win some headers in every match and knocks the ball nicely forward. Problem is that the quick striker is to far away from him to utilize theese knock downs. They can be as much as 20-25 meters apart. So when the quick player reacts he's to far away to do any damage. What can I do to narrow down the gap between them? This happens in both the standard and attacking sets. Is it down to width? Oposing teams who use strong/quick combination will have the two strikers much closer.

When using the attacking set against poor oposition my players become more or less static. They will be picked up and marked by oposing players easy. If my keeper starts play with a short pass to a fullback he will have no one to pass to because the attacking minded players have gone up the filed and are marked. Usually end up with a hoof. This happens to most of the defensive minded players. Either they hoof the ball, or they pass to the keeper. My team will dominate possession, but are rarely able to utilize it to create chances or goals. The players on free roles also get caught up and marked effectivley.

Although I don't claim to be any kind of expert, my suggestions would be:

1) Reduce CF, take off free roles for one / both of your FC's.

2) Take off some of the forward runs for your more attacking players - this will have them not moving as far up the field when your defence have the ball, giving another passing option.

If anyone knows better - feel free to correct me - so I can use the better advice for myself too!!!

[Skoolblowsme]

Defensive: FCd (x + 5); FCa (x + 8)

Standard: FCd (x + 3); FCa (x + 7)

Attacking: FCd (x + 1); FCa (x + 6)

Aren't these backwards, shouldn't the mentality be higher in attacking and lower in Defensive?

[Mr Chessecake]

Just a quick question on passing is it ok to use the global setting in that say instead of a attacking formation being short in defence mixed in mid the direct in att is it ok just to play global passing for the team?

[Tafse]

Of course its ok to use global passing. This is only tactical theorems. Its not set in stone. Ive had much success with global passing. But the logic behind the recommendation of split passing in the TT&F is solid enough. And it can produce truly awesome football.

[vasilli07]

Tall & Slow Attackers: OI wingers to go inside

Short & Quick Attackers: OI wingers to go outside

To show inside, does that mean if a player is right-footed, i will show him to his right foot?

[philipv]

Tall & Slow Attackers: OI wingers to go inside

Short & Quick Attackers: OI wingers to go outside

To show inside, does that mean if a player is right-footed, i will show him to his right foot?

Not quite - Show inside means away from the wing and towards the centre of the pitch

[Mitja]

Tall & Slow Attackers: OI wingers to go inside

Short & Quick Attackers: OI wingers to go outside

To show inside, does that mean if a player is right-footed, i will show him to his right foot?

to his left foot if i'm not mistaking.

[Mr Chessecake]

Just another question on closing down does anyone put the GK on closing down?i notice it says use the GK/CD as a base and build up from there.

[Random Hero]

Tall & Slow Attackers: OI wingers to go inside

Short & Quick Attackers: OI wingers to go outside

To show inside, does that mean if a player is right-footed, i will show him to his right foot?

It depends on the position on the pitch.

For a left sided player, shoving them inside will shove them onto their right, for a right side player it will shove them onto their left.

[Wohowter]

Defensive: FCd (x + 5); FCa (x + 8)

Standard: FCd (x + 3); FCa (x + 7)

Attacking: FCd (x + 1); FCa (x + 6)

Aren't these backwards, shouldn't the mentality be higher in attacking and lower in Defensive?

No, I think wwfan is correct. But the X in defensive is lower than the X in attacking ( X stands for the mentality of the DC) When playing defensive, your aim is to score on a counter-attack and that's why it's important your attackers (FCd and FCa) are higher up the pitch, where there is free space. When playing attacking, a quick counter is difficult because the other team probably uses a lot of defenders. So then you need to play possesion football and short-pass your way to the other goal.

[Yonezzz]

Wow. This thread is foppin' brilliant! As someone who has never played a Football Manager games (last management game I played was Championship Manager 2: Enhanced 97/98, where all you needed to do was pretty much buy the best players, stick 'em in whatever formation you wanted and then win, win, win ), I was a bit flummoxed by all the options available. I'm going to have a good old read and digest of this before I start a new game with my beloved Arsenal (I'm really not doing my players justice in my current game).

One question, though. I've turned the in-game pitch view off. Am I losing out on useful information here (such as, say, whether a winger is continually being pushed onto his weaker foot) or can I get all the info I need, both during and after the game, from the stats and reports? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but I'd be very grateful for an answer.

[tomo_123]

Hi guys, when you want to shut up shop on opponents, what do you want your tempo, closing down, passing and width to be? Cause I'm playing a 4-5-1 with Bolton and I don't want to be leaking goals towards end of games when I'm leading. So any help guys, cheers

[GBC]

Great read. Better than any book ;-)

I am about to embark on my First season and I like playing from lower leagues (probably start in Blue Sq Premier) - could you summarise the key tips that lower league approaches need, that then vary through to Premier League and equivalents?

It really seems more lifelike e.g. taking time for players / squads to gel. Will be interesting to see the impact of my staff and whether the Assistant etc should "get a chance" or immediately replace with higher value, and reputation ones?

G.

[Envoy]

Good stuff. Hi guys, I need some help with my new save. I'm not totally new to this but after much trial and error I decided to seek help here. I started a new save with Lyon because my previous Liverpool save became boring, one loss whole season hence I trust this people.

In my new Lyon save, I'm trying to set both strikers as FCa, Benzema and my new signing Gomis. What I noticed from my previous save is that strikers don't do well, at all. Torres went on a 16hour goal drought playing as the lone striker. Keane, still has it going on. What i plan to do on this Lyon save is set both strikers as FCa and the wingers along with one CM playing the support role. The other 2 CM will get the defend and attack roles. 3-5-2, I want to know if it is feasible and how I should play them.

I also need help with the defenders, I have no clue on how I should play them.

Once again, awesome stuff. Insightful an eye opener for someone new to the series, only other one was FM08 which I didn't have much time on.

[mancity12]

WWFAN -

Im using a 'role theory' mentality structure like so -

.....................11.....15

..............14.....8.....11.....14

..............11.....8......8......11

..........................8

This is the mentality setting for my standard tactic.

When creating a defensive tactic, would you lower the mentalities of all players by say 2 notches? I fully understand you would change a couple of player roles from support to defensive and have done and its like this -

.....................11....15

..............14.....8....11.....14

...............8......8.....8......8

..........................8

So basically, ive changed the FB's roles to defensive and also changed their other individual settings to match them acting as defensive role players.

My question is though, should it be more like this? -

.......................10.....14

................13.....6.....10....13

.................6......6......6.....6

.............................6

This would be the role theory, but with all roles (defend/ support/ attack) mentalities reduced a little.

Is this right? I cannot see a mention of in in TT&F.

Thank you.

[Imperator77]

Have now played about 3/4 of my first season with Boro. After having a reasonable good start and picking up points I now struggle to get the team to perform. From what my assistant report, the team is more or less gelled. Foreign players are able to speak English and morale is usually very good or superb.

The main problems from what I observe in matches are errors in defence, lack of involvement from the wingers, lack of support from central midfielders and strikers who do not run with ball.

1.Defensive errors.

It seems I'm not able to get rid of defensive errors. By errors I mean missed interceptions who leads to quite a few goals in the wrong net. This occurs quite often and I can't get my head round how to make a defender avoid these errors.

This is what I have tried to do:

First of all I changed to zonal marking because the Boro defenders are not the best markers in the world. So zonal and tight marking seemed best in my eyes. I tried to follow the assistants advise through matches. He never suggest marking, but closing down and hard tackling most of the time. Doing this I've been undone by strikers playing close to each other and drawing both central defenders on one of them, giving the second striker a free way on goal. It's like the opposing strikers plays on the borders of each defenders zone, dragging at least two defenders out of position. The fullbacks seems to track inwards while defending in a zonal system. This leaves room for opposing wingers.

I've tried to use OI instructions by marking tightly and push onto weaker foot. It looks like this works better for me, but still there are errors in every match. Be it Stoke or be it Manchester United, my defenders make errors.

I've not tried to put my team on man marking like suggested in the TT&F documents. I would believe my players are not good enough. But compared to the Al's very effective marking it could work if I had known how to do it.

2.Wingers and central midfielders fail to get involved

I've mentioned this in earlier posts. I recruited Diarra from Pompey as a ball winner and creative midfielder (he almost fits into the role of a box to box midfielder). When I play games touted as winner by odds I have a lot of possession (could be as high as 65/35 against weak teams). That's mostly because of defenders passing among the back line and goalkeeper. Under the slightest bit of pressure the midfielders will opt for a pass sideways or backwards. Diarra in the mca position will very rarely try to take the ball forward or try through balls. I believe it could be down to different reasons, like the strikers being heavily marked and unable to find space for them selves.

The wingers fail to make impact in most games. The assistant will most of the time complain about crosses, and he is right. Best ratings for completed crosses have been at 15/16%. I rate Dowing and have heard from other players that he produces for Boro when AI Southgate is in charge. He finds himself at 36th spot on the statistics over runs past opponents with about 2 a game. In 27 matches he has produced 2 goals and 4 assists. To get him more involved I've reduced fwd runs to mixed. He will receive the ball, but rarely challenge the opposing fullback. I've experimented with width settings to get the wingers more involved, but I do not see much difference.

4.Strikers not running with ball

Having a look at the stats after a match I would find my strikers with few or none runs past defenders. Checking opposing strikers they will always outnumber my strikers attempts. In many games that is down to lack of space. I would expect so for the fca as he is furthest up the pitch and instructed to hold up ball because he is strong. The mcd though do not utilize he's lower mentality setting and drifts into the laps of central defenders. When he get the ball he will mostly be kicked in the air by an aggressive defender and loose the ball. Because of this my opponents very rarely make the same mistakes in defence as I do. Lack of movement and runs at the defenders makes my players easy targets for an aggressive back line.

The things I've mentioned is as mentioned what I observe through watching games. I can clearly see what's not working and what does. But I am not able to fix the things that do not work. From what I read on the forums this is the case for many players. I wish SI had given a tutorial video or something where they showed what you can do in certain situations. When you see things that clearly do no work, and have got an idea what can be done to correct it, it is very frustrating not to be able to do it because you do not know how to alter the right settings.

[Iselilja]

WWfan: Where have the "counter" tactics gone? Do you not see a need for it anymore? Should i employ standard or defense tactics in the situations where i used the counter in previous games?

If im going to create a counter, which key settings would differ from the standard tactics? (I would say a bit lower mentality, and aggressive wingers and forwards)

[grozavu07]

WWfan: Where have the "counter" tactics gone? Do you not see a need for it anymore? Should i employ standard or defense tactics in the situations where i used the counter in previous games?

If im going to create a counter, which key settings would differ from the standard tactics? (I would say a bit lower mentality, and aggressive wingers and forwards)

Defensive is 'the new Counter'

[Iselilja]

And then shut-up-shop is the new defense, or does defensive cover the purpose of both the old "counter" and "defence" ?

[Siskebab]

Hi Guys! Greetings from Hungary!

First of all I would really like to thank to all the people who took part in creating this fantastic thread! THANK YOU!

I really enjoyed reading it but I am still strugling to get a right result with Liverpool and it seems I am not good enough to figure out WHY?!?!?!

I created 3 different strategies already, tried more manager styles but still I am completely outplayed by some teams and strugling even against weaker sides to score.

I still do not understand how to get the best out of my FCs.

There is one important question Id like to clarify: when you are talking about manager styles and creativity levels does that mean that If I want to play a Mourinho-style game I should lower all my players CF to zero?!

What is a good approach for setting closing down for a team who would like to dictate the tempo and have all the possession possible?

I concede too many goals and I do not know why...

What shall I do against top-class strikers like Rooney, Adebayor, Tevez etc?

I know that I should have found all the answers in the documentation, but believe I followed it step by step and I am getting a bit upset because of the bad results.

Thanks for your response in advance!

[Murchadh]

After reading the document in depth I created a number of Tactics (around Role Theory and 442) whilst playing Arsenal. The irony is that my season seems to be going exactly like Arsenal IRL. Playing against the big teams I have beaten Chelsea and Man U 1-0 away, but I am struggling against the lower teams (basically that means anyone not top 5 or 6) when they invariably "park the bus". I have been trying a Control tactic (3 DEF, 6 SUP, 1 ATT and variations thereof) that does fantastic things in terms of possession as I regularly dominate with over 60% with the opposition hardly getting a shot in. When they do (as with my last game away against Bolton) they tend to score even when they only get 1 or 2 opportunities to do so in the whole game.

The problem seems to be related to the 2 strikers who are almost totally not in the game. Example, the back four and midfield regularly average over 60 or 70 passes with a high completion rate, but all they are doing is passing amongst themselves. Against Bolton in my last game the Strikers average just over 10 passes each. When the strikers are given the ball, they get swamped (I noticed FIVE players crowding a striker numerous times) and invariably lose the ball.

Also, whilst the possession domination thing seems good, I have the feeling I am wasting my other main advantage with Arsenal, i.e. Pace. With 442 Role Theory I never seem to get my wingers to bomb down the sides and bang in passes effectively. Example, Walcott and co do make runs down the flanks but (1) there is never any cutting in and (2) when getting into good crossing positions around the Byline the defender(s) shadowing them tend to block crosses for corners or over the sideline A LOT (as in 80% or more of the time), which helps very little since Arsenal is no good at set pieces (FM is really good at duplicating those quirky aspects it seems).

Thirdly, when trying counter attack I NEVER get clean breaks or true one-on-one situations. Either the goalie stands there with the ball not actually getting rid of it as the opposition track back (quick throw? no such thing) or the receiving player stands there with the ball at his feet not actually trying to quickly bomb the ball to someone in an advanced position. Now I gather this has something to do with not being able to find a player to pass to, but I have tried all manner of different combinations within 442 and I have yet to see a true counter attack attempted.

Fourthly, I have heard people complain about Fabregas and then read those saying he operates fantastically. I am leaning towards the former. Worldclass with 20 in Creativity and Passing but even when he does get a load of "through balls", very very few of them are ever key enough to create any kind of substantial opportunity. I have played Denilson (a FAR lesser player) in the exact same role and exactly the same settings and he has been WAY more effective at creating scoring opportunities.

Any ideas?

[Murchadh]

In many games that is down to lack of space.

Reading what you wrote got me thinking. Employing my Control version tends to "push" my players into theirs and all 20 outfield players get "squashed" well into their half of the pitch. My team have two things in abundance; creativity and pace so I am thinking that I am going to try to deviate wholly from the "no more than 8 spaces" in mentality between the DCs and uppermost ST even if that leaves vulnerable gaps, because by creating space for the opposition, I am creating space for myself. :confused:

[Mitja]

The problem seems to be related to the 2 strikers who are almost totally not in the game. Example, the back four and midfield regularly average over 60 or 70 passes with a high completion rate, but all they are doing is passing amongst themselves. Against Bolton in my last game the Strikers average just over 10 passes each. When the strikers are given the ball, they get swamped (I noticed FIVE players crowding a striker numerous times) and invariably lose the ball.

Also, whilst the possession domination thing seems good, I have the feeling I am wasting my other main advantage with Arsenal, i.e. Pace. With 442 Role Theory I never seem to get my wingers to bomb down the sides and bang in passes effectively. Example, Walcott and co do make runs down the flanks but (1) there is never any cutting in and (2) when getting into good crossing positions around the Byline the defender(s) shadowing them tend to block crosses for corners or over the sideline A LOT (as in 80% or more of the time), which helps very little since Arsenal is no good at set pieces (FM is really good at duplicating those quirky aspects it seems).

it seems mentality is too high for your strikers that's why they're not in the game. you'll need to experimente a bit with mentality and forward settings and some other settings as well. what you could try is to reduce their mentality to Support and Defend roles. i'd start with RVP set on lower mentality but more forward runs (mixed/often) and crossing to often so he exploits space on the flanks and leave more room for physical presence of Ade - less forward runs (no/mixed) and higher mentality. pay attention to their passing options and go for their strengths and experimente.

for the second thing highering creative freedom and setting a free role might help. my players do cut in (still not as much as i would like), you need to have wrong sided wingers for that to happen more often. crossing to mixed/rarely and PPM 'dribbles through centre'. walcott will dribble down the flank as he has the PPM and he's not wrong sided if you play him in right wing.

[Murchadh]

it seems mentality is too high for your strikers that's why they're not in the game. you'll need to experimente a bit with mentality and forward settings and some other settings as well. what you could try is to reduce their mentality to Support and Defend roles. i'd start with RVP set on lower mentality but more forward runs (mixed/often) and crossing to often so he exploits space on the flanks and leave more room for physical presence of Ade - less forward runs (no/mixed) and higher mentality. pay attention to their passing options and go for their strengths and experimente.

for the second thing highering creative freedom and setting a free role might help. my players do cut in (still not as much as i would like), you need to have wrong sided wingers for that to happen more often. crossing to mixed/rarely and PPM 'dribbles through centre'. walcott will dribble down the flank as he has the PPM and he's not wrong sided if you play him in right wing.

After my post I played around a lot more with settings and lo and behold, the issue 'looks' like being resolved. Getting the strikers in the game was a simple matter of dropping the passing for the entire midfield 2 notches and increasing creativity two notches. Also, My wingers do cut in now...run with ball often...high creativity...cross ball rarely...cross from BYLINE. This last bit seems interesting since the wingers now make runs towards the Byline and then cut, running alongside the byline and giving short, simple passes into the 6 yard box...or my personal favourite (ala Arsenal IRL) an angled cut back pass towards someone in the penalty area and then doing the one-two. I am going to stick to this 3-6-1 setup (midfield overloading) for a while and see whether the long term benefits are there. Incidentally, I do not have high mentality on almost anyone, but deviating from the real Arsenal (who these days play a very slow building game) I have time wasting on very low and normal tempo)

The higher striker (Adebayor et al in my case) seems to be playing a bit of a decoy role because the other striker making runs from deep seems to be finding a great deal of space effectively.

I would say the biggest achilles heal of this kind of system is that striking opportunities are shared among the whole team and since central defenders rarely have good finishing stats, a lot of misses happen. On the other hand, 'total football' is a joy to behold (if at times frustratingly so).

Next season I am looking at incorporating libero play...I am a BIG fan of an Ajax type system and want to see if I can create that sorta thing effectively here.

[Yataghan]

Thanks for theorems and frameworks