Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[Evilscotsman]

Your a sack.

We just won 3-0 without any of your *****

Get a life stop wasting your own time you sack

[Snoweel]

your a sack.

We just won 3-0 without any of your *****

get a life stop wasting your own time you sack

omfg uplode ur tactix kthnx

[wwfan]

It's been interesting reading some of the solutions you guys are coming up with. I've also changed bits and pieces of TT&F around, notably with how I set up my MCs. One of the things I've loved about TT&F over the years is how I lose control of it and it takes an organic developmental form of its own, generating new ideas and solutions from different sources. As I have done recently, I often distance myself from the thread for a period just to see where it goes and what innovative and creative ideas spring up in my absence. The whole point of TT&F is that it inspires others to see how things might work better or differently, which can often be curtailed by my continued involvement in the flawed assumption that I have all the answers.

From my perspective, while I can quickly theorise and pinpoint exactly how things are going wrong in any one tactic, adding new ideas to the corpus of knowledge in TT&F is often beyond me as I can get trapped in the methodology. For example, I've found Justified's alternate FC splits to be exceptionally good, but doubt I'd have got there myself. Likewise, in this TT&F I've finally added my own frameworks (Bands of Two and Role Theory) to those that were developed by others over the years. Although Rule of One is attributed to me, and I credited it to myself here, it was actually developed via an offhand comment from a forum user who was expressing exasperation about FM07. I actually got bogged down by the RoO framework and only extricated myself by the demands of the TT&F'09 document, in which the challenge was to design 8 logical, optional frameworks. Interestingly, my favourite framework, Role Theory, had no empirical testing at all until after we finished writing TT&F. We knew it would work in theory, but had no idea how well it would/wouldn't work in practice. When we finally got around to trying it we breathed a big sigh of relief.

TT&F has always been a work of collation and collaboration, taking its next version from the contributions of the previous, thus making it a community document, rather than one owned by me. Until this version, I was almost 100% collator, with my only real original contribution being the match strategy section. This version has been heavily influenced by all the Beta testing I have done for FML and FM, which has led to a fair amount of it coming directly from me. However, it will gain in strength and sophistication down to the contributions of those posting in the thread and forums. I can already see signs of it being taken to the next level and am very thankful for the thoughtful and well-structured posts of those critiquing and adding to its theories. I hope that these thought processes are adding to the enjoyment of the game. That, after all, has always been the main objective.

[lawd]

I must say that this guide has just about rescued the whole FM09 experience for me. Before I was finding it stupidly annoying and difficult to get what I had in my head into the game, but following this manual I have finally got something close to what I want happening, minus some tinkering of course.

A play a 4-3-1-2 formation with no wingers something like this

----0--0----

-----0-----

---0--0--0--

-0--0--0--0-

I have a couple of questions if I may,

1) Is it better to have my CB's with tight marking, it seems my team get back well to defend but I am conceding the odd silly goal.

2) My FB's supply my width, yet most of my goals come through the middle, I am not complaining but I wonder how I may best utilise my FB's.

All in all though very pleased with how this thread as helped me find at least some enjoyment in this years incarnation of the FM.

thanks.

[Snoweel]

Although Rule of One is attributed to me, and I credited it to myself here, it was actually developed via an offhand comment from a forum user who was expressing exasperation about FM07.

I remember that guy!

He developed a set of 11 RoO tactics with a one step mentality increment between each one, and then switched between them mid-game until he found the 'right' one.

1) Is it better to have my CB's with tight marking, it seems my team get back well to defend but I am conceding the odd silly goal.

I have found that defenders with low marking attributes get beaten much more easily (especially by attackers with high off the ball) in FM09 than in previous versions.

Try experimenting with loose or zonal marking (but not both) on any DC with a low marking attribute.

2) My FB's supply my width, yet most of my goals come through the middle, I am not complaining but I wonder how I may best utilise my FB's.

For starters, you should be using them as your floating players between each of your tactics. I've found Role Theory gets the most out of fullbacks because it gets them well forward.

So with your attacking tactic your fullbacks should have the same mentaility as the highest mentality players on your team and try focusing passing down both wings.

Only thing is, with only one wide player on each side they may get isolated - I'm not sure how much your strikers and your left and right MC's will help out. But with such a narrow formation you should be playing with more width than normal anyway; your attacking tactic (and probably your standard tactic too) should have width 20 even if you're not focusing down the flanks.

[Dargone]

Thanks so much for this and all the comments! This is so much more "fun" to me than trying to find a super tactic. I finally feel, for the first time maybe ever, that I can design my own tactics now!

[Dargone]

NM, found the answer

[wwfan]

I remember that guy!

He developed a set of 11 RoO tactics with a one step mentality increment between each one, and then switched between them mid-game until he found the 'right' one.

Wasn't him. He adapted the RoO framework to his extreme conclusion and ran a good thread explaining it all. It was somebody far more random than that.

[Dargone]

wwfan, which settings do you like for FCd and FCa when using Role Theory? I noticed earlier in the thread you talked about switching their mentalities. Also, I'm starting a game as ManU, which forward where? I'm thinking Rooney as the FCd and Barbatov as the FCa

[Dargone]

One more question before bed! I'm not real clear on the relation of defensive line to pitch size? I read that paragraph a few times but I'm just not getting it? Can someone give me a general guideline to any changes that should be made regarding the defensive line when the pitch is large/small? Thanks!

[ham_aka_stam]

wwfan, which settings do you like for FCd and FCa when using Role Theory? I noticed earlier in the thread you talked about switching their mentalities. Also, I'm starting a game as ManU, which forward where? I'm thinking Rooney as the FCd and Barbatov as the FCa

I have a thread called something stupid like "I've just found something..." where i mention switching the mentalities of the cms and fws, i use tevez and rooney up top, the lower mentality player focusses on runnin on and off the ball with a free role, and the high focusses on holding up the ball, passing and playing through balls. They are then set to swap positions. If using berba, I have him as the high mentality holder-upper passer.

[wayne'o]

i think reading this makes the game to complicated, you would have to sepnd 6 months in a class room to remember every thing..

I dont think implimenting tactics IRl are any where near as complex as this.

[PhroX]

i think reading this makes the game to complicated' date=' you would have to sepnd 6 months in a class room to remember every thing..

I dont think implimenting tactics IRl are any where near as complex as this.[/quote']

On the contrary, I'd bet real life tactics are far more complicated. Hence why so many managers screw it up.

[wayne'o]

Im having same problem as most after the 2nd patch, my team can't defend to save there lifesif i play defensive with a low mentality they score from 20 yards, if i push up and play with higher mentaility they run clear and score..

where do i start..

do i make a tactic to fit the 11 starting players or what?

[YellowGuy]

I've also changed bits and pieces of TT&F around, notably with how I set up my MCs

I'd be particularly interested to know how you've changed your mc settings... In the guidelines for role theory at least you originally had 1 cm with a defend role and another on support. I've tried this countless times with my Villa save as i appear to have a natural destroyer/dm in reo-coker and supporting playmaker type cm in barry, but cant for the life of me get them performing how I’d like. Ideally coker would run around tackling and harassing whilst barry would pull strings and run the show but so far i havent found a way of replicating this consistently.

The nearest i got was almost swapping their roles completely (which seems very counter-intuitive). Whilst this did let barry get involved a little more, now i had a dm with not great passing/first touch/long shots etc much farther up the field when in possession, and 9 times out of 10 he'd fluff an easy ball/shot that barry would have pulled off no probs.

In an ideal world I'd have coker battling away in front of barry when defending, but then dropping back and letting barry take over the passing duties when in attack. That way barrys playmaker type passing could be used from the back of the field for a quick counter, and then moving closer to the goal in support of the strikers he'd be more likely to thread a decent through ball or twenty.

To be honest the cm setting have been my biggest downfall in ever tactic i've made in 09, so any insights into how you've changed your original thinking would be much appreciated.

For example, I've found Justified's alternate FC splits to be exceptionally good

This idea i've been very much interested in and have experimented with a couple of times. On some occasions it works wonders and other times not at all. Im just looking for a consistent way to have my butch forwards (carew and ashton) hold up the ball, be the target of crosses, long balls forward etc and my nippy guy (gabby) to get his one-on-one chances.

I guess i'd just like your thoughts about which 'parts' of the FCa/FCd roles youve switched. A lot of the time i still see my little guy with more headers and the lumbering oaf trying to break onto through balls, regardless of which way round the mentality slider is

[Mitja]

The nearest i got was almost swapping their roles completely (which seems very counter-intuitive). Whilst this did let barry get involved a little more, now i had a dm with not great passing/first touch/long shots etc much farther up the field when in possession, and 9 times out of 10 he'd fluff an easy ball/shot that barry would have pulled off no probs.

In an ideal world I'd have coker battling away in front of barry when defending, but then dropping back and letting barry take over the passing duties when in attack. That way barrys playmaker type passing could be used from the back of the field for a quick counter, and then moving closer to the goal in support of the strikers he'd be more likely to thread a decent through ball or twenty.

To be honest the cm setting have been my biggest downfall in ever tactic i've made in 09, so any insights into how you've changed your original thinking would be much appreciated.

if you play a MC with no forawrd runs he'll drop deeper to DM position. if you want him to press higher you'll need to move him a bit further - forward runs mixed. that's what it did when you changed their roles. just try to play them both on support, that's how AI plays. the difference would be for example:

coker-> barry

mentality slighly lower than barry

creative freedom lower, barry higher

passing shorter or longer, depending

TTB: rarely/mixed, mixed, often

RwB: rarely, mixed

crossing: rarely, mixed

closing down: coker higher (whole pitch)

[PaddyBrophy]

I just want to add my thanks to the list. A great guide, fantastic. I've read it cover to cover twice, and applied its ideas to my game and I'm doing great, halfway through my first season!

[PhroX]

YellowGuy: Try looking at the kind of things me and ham_aka_stam have been doing. That is to have one player (in your case Barry) as a high mentality, rare FWR "playmaker" (though not neccesarily with the box ticked), and the other (Reo-Coker) as a low mentality but high forward runs "box-to-box" type player. The general idea being RC will win the ball, give it to Barry and then get forward, while Barry will make attacking passes (thanks to the higher mentality), but stay relatively deep to cover while RC gets back when you lose the ball.

[wayne'o]

I think i understand the mentality side of the game, not really sure how best to use Creative freedome (CF)..

When choosing what mentalities to put players on, does an AML, AMR or AMC have to have there mentalities set to attacking because they are attacking players? Meaning that setting an AM to a low mentality (Defensive) beeing almost a conflict?

I'm not sure what to ask for help in the area i need but i dont really know what tools to use for the job in hand and by that i mean tactics, Recently i have found using a fast temp regaurdless of what else i change seems to give me more attacking play..

when i think i have a good tactic i go and get beat a thew times and during the game, it's almost pot luck if i come away with a result. i change setting such as, tempo, width, d-line in a bid to try and keep a lead or chase a goal. but i have to admit, there is nothing in the ME that inclines me to make then choices..

Can some one point me in the right direction on what i need to aquire?

[PhroX]

When choosing what mentalities to put players on' date=' does an AML, AMR or AMC have to have there mentalities set to attacking because they are attacking players? Meaning that setting an AM to a low mentality (Defensive) beeing almost a conflict?[/quote']

Not at all. Having attacking players with lower mentalities means that they will drop deeper and look to link up the play more, as well as playing less risky attacking passes (and hence being less likely to give the ball away). Which is a perfectly viable way of setting them up, particularly if you're looking to play possession football. It doesn't turn them into defensive players by any means.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Your a sack.

We just won 3-0 without any of your *****

Get a life stop wasting your own time you sack

Why be here? Why make that Post?

What sack does he mean, scrotum? Im confused, wwfan has the utmost respect from all but the mentally flakey, so take your extrememly unimpressive 3-0 (and I bet you cheated!) and shove it where the floodlights cause no shadows.

[Realmadrid_2007]

amazing dedication and implementation

[Cam NBH]

Brilliant thread and great advice. Has anyone tried matching CF for attacking/support players to their creativity attribute? Makes my team play on fire although I only do it with MCa, MR/L, FCd and FCa.

Injuries are killing me though

[buzzer]

Thanks for the analysis. First game with my modified tactics gave a very comfortable 2-0 win. I can't remember the last time the opposition had zero shots

[wayne'o]

Finished reading the last page of Frame works late tlast nite, hard to remember every thing so need to read it again..

Could some one just help explain the support roles cos im a bit vague in this area as im not sure im doing it correctly?

(Support and Attack roles, the manager can choose to deploy a 6-3-1, 6-2-2, 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 split. Due to its very defensive nature, this strategy might not suit all formations, especially those with multiple attacking midfielders and forwards. )

Mentality System: Defensive – Mid Normal (min 5 players on Defensive)

Player Roles: 5-6 Defend, 2-4 Support, 1-2 Attack

I like to play a flat 4-4-2 how would you impliment these instruction's into a 4-4-2?

[lig]

firstly, many thanks for this guide

secondly, ive noticed a few discrepancies between the main guide/crib sheet & the wizard. a few examples:

(1) bands of 2 formation. guide/crib sheet has MRL at mentality 12, wizard has MRL at mentality 11

(2) standard formations. guide/crib sheet has defending roles passing longer than supporting roles, wizards has the reverse

(3) guide has the FCd & FCa mentalities vary according to how attacking the formation (i.e. FCd x+5, FCa x+8 for defensive, FCd x+3, FCa x+7 for standard, FCd x+1, FCa x+6 for attacking), wizard only uses standard equation (FCd x+3, FCa x+7) for defensive, standard & attacking

im very appreciative of all the work put in so this isnt a complaint. im just wondering, with regards to the above 3 examples, which i should trust more - main guide/crib sheet or wizard?

[wayne'o]

these formulers look good on paper. they dont mean a thing. espicially when the AI has super attacking tactics, they defy all logic in football and how it's played.

[Nick Toye]

Correct me if I am wrong, but where it has Nike Defence. The numbers refer to the amount of notches in the Mentality slider?

[andre_costa]

Nick : Yes.

[Nick Toye]

Ok thanks, I just didn't think it was clear.

Got the pdf on a print order from my printer friend - some serious reading, note making and coffee drinking will be the order of the day.

[stebrownsword]

Quick question, in the first post there is a download link where you can download 72 tactics etc etc....

Which tactic on there is the best?

My team is extremely good on paper.

I like to win by keeping cleaning sheets, restricting the opposition to no chances; I like to have 55% plus possession.

So which Tactic do people recommend to use?

[Nick Toye]

Where can I download the other theorems? I hear this one is part of a set.

[phillyboy16]

greatest thing i've ever read about FM! Made me a master at formations I love it. Thank you so much.

[tkaasa]

Hi wwfan. Thank you for a great guide, really nice work. I've managed to create some killer 4-4-2 tactics based on role theory, implementing short passing for the whole team. Now I am getting a little bored of this formation actually

I am currently working on a 4-2-3-1 formation, but this seems to be more difficult. Do you have any suggestions on which mentality system that would work in this kind of formation?? Have tried out role theory, the 2-6-2 and the Benitez style but can't get the tactics to perform. Have you had any success with similar formations? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Trigger_18uk]

Anyone else found that the presets for both 4-4-2 and the 4-5-1 to be solid in defence but lacking a bit when going forward? Can't seem to find the right balance at the moment.

[Lord Vader]

how do i get the best out of carragher and agger for liverpool? i am basically trying to play as defensive as humanly possible but i need to kill games off comfortabley rather than nil nils all the time against shut up shop teams.

agger has better positioning than marking stats. Should i set his defending to zonal and tight and carraghers to man and tight?

what defensive line and vocer works with carraghers crap pace and crap passing attributes in relation to mascherano as an anchor man? i am then building my teams mentality up from this base, but am struggling to get the best out of alonso and gerrard in a 3 man central midfield using deep playmaker for alonso and box to box gerrard specialist roles...

please help!

Gerrard: use playmaker ticked for team

mascherano-defensive role, alonso, free role but defensive playmaker role ala Pirlo

im trying to play killer balls from deep to break offside traps and get my pacey striker one on one with the keeper, as he likes to break offside trap and rounds the keeper like a young Ronaldo (brazilian ).

i have spent nights tinkering and tinkering but cant suss the right mentalities to get this baby of mine up and ruunning

[Lord Vader]

whats a vocer? hehe i think i meant "mentality"

[Donars]

Absolute fantastic guide guys, really appreciate the effort put into it

Currently have a few minor problems however

Im Partick Thistle in Scottish First Division, the quality is pretty dire, and have been using a 451 formation which is occassionally working well but is far too inconsistent. This is my second season now and I just cannot seem to go on a decent run of form.

So a few questions:

1) Should I be using any free roles at all in this league?

2) Should my closing down be reduced for each position in the team?

3) I am using counter attacking on my standard tactic but took this off for my most reason game which I won 3-1. Was this just a fluke or is counter attacking limiting my attacks?

4) I am also completely unable to get my MCa into the game at all and he frequently gets ratings sub 6.0. I thought about making him a player maker but I thought this may prevent him from making forward runs?

5) Near enough every goal I score is from my ST occassionally with a winger chipping in but I hoped to have my attacking and support midfielders chip in with a few goals. Any ideas how to go about this?

6) Is there any other advice for playing at this level, such as creative freedom etc?

[grozavu07]

Absolute fantastic guide guys, really appreciate the effort put into it

Currently have a few minor problems however

Im Partick Thistle in Scottish First Division, the quality is pretty dire, and have been using a 451 formation which is occassionally working well but is far too inconsistent. This is my second season now and I just cannot seem to go on a decent run of form.

So a few questions:

1) Should I be using any free roles at all in this league?

2) Should my closing down be reduced for each position in the team?

3) I am using counter attacking on my standard tactic but took this off for my most reason game which I won 3-1. Was this just a fluke or is counter attacking limiting my attacks?

4) I am also completely unable to get my MCa into the game at all and he frequently gets ratings sub 6.0. I thought about making him a player maker but I thought this may prevent him from making forward runs?

5) Near enough every goal I score is from my ST occassionally with a winger chipping in but I hoped to have my attacking and support midfielders chip in with a few goals. Any ideas how to go about this?

6) Is there any other advice for playing at this level, such as creative freedom etc?

1.I wouldn't.There's no need to

2.Yes ,or else players will tire quickly on match finale

3.I have found that CA is better used in away matches against stronger opponents so I use it in Standard tactic only in this case

4.I very rarely have this situation

5.Long shots mixed or often is doing it for me.And plenty from FK's.Another crucial aspect is player PPM.

For example,after my striker learned the 'places shots' PPM,in his next match he scored a hattrick(All goals were placed shots(after match commentary)

For wingers and MC's would be :RwB through center,Places shots,Curls ball,shoots from distance

6.Well,CF should be pretty low(to normal).Higher tempo generally.Normal or direct passing, higher T-Wasting

[Nick Toye]

I have a question about the Effective Striker Partnerships section.

What does all this mean?

Attacking: FCd[x+1]; FCa[x+6]

I just don't understand that?

[tomescan]

I have a question about the Effective Striker Partnerships section.

What does all this mean?

Attacking: FCd[x+1]; FCa[x+6]

I just don't understand that?

X represents your central defenders mentality.

X+1 is the mentality of your defensive attacker: 1 click to the right of the mentality of your central defender.

X+6 is the mentality of your offensive attacker: 6 clicks to the right of the mentality of your central defender.

[Nick Toye]

Ah so if I am going with the Role of One theory, and my central defenders are set to 8 Mentality, My attacking forward needs 14 and my defensive forward needs to be 9?

if so how come in the Rule of One section my forwards are both on 13?

[tomescan]

if so how come in the Rule of One section my forwards are both on 13?

I think that is just a general overview of what rule of one is all about. If you open up the excel document they provide with the tactics sets inside, I'm nearly certain it's like 9 for one of your attackers and 13 for the other on the standard mentality.

[moj]

according to TT&F, counter-attack is used for defence, correct? so why is it that man utd, even at home, counter attack so much, yesterday against boro it was a prime example

[Trigger_18uk]

Are these theories still true for the latest patch?

[grozavu07]

Are these theories still true for the latest patch?

Yes,they still hold true

[Nick Toye]

I think that is just a general overview of what rule of one is all about. If you open up the excel document they provide with the tactics sets inside, I'm nearly certain it's like 9 for one of your attackers and 13 for the other on the standard mentality.

Just opened the excel sheet and there is only the Band of Two example.

[Wee Aja]

Looks like a good read. I've bookmarked it and will go through it tomorrow morning.

Thanks for all the sterling work put in guys

[tomescan]

Just opened the excel sheet and there is only the Band of Two example.

You can change the theory setting by clicking on the box that says band of two and change to rule of one or role theory etc. You can also change formation settings from the standard 4-4-2 and mentalities to defensive or attacking by clicking on the appropriate boxes

[Nick Toye]

You can change the theory setting by clicking on the box that says band of two and change to rule of one or role theory etc. You can also change formation settings from the standard 4-4-2 and mentalities to defensive or attacking by clicking on the appropriate boxes

Ah, well I am not using Excel. I am on a Mac and I use Numbers as my spreadsheet application - and there is no option to change.