Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[higgins]

Glad things worked out well for you ALH. It's over-acheived for my Altrincham team in the BSP as well. The trick is going to be doing more work on it to get it to do the same thing with lower to middling clubs in the top-flight of European leagues like the EPL.

I'm still working on the full draft for the post but am hoping I might be able to get it up tonight, after the Man Utd game against Fulham of course! I'm just about to head out to my local bar who's patrons are now all "converts" to supporting Man Utd, regardless of all the Spaniards who play for Liverpool It's a small village bar and I'm the only Brit that goes in there, but they love their footy and always put the English matches on for me.

Anyway, just a quick question for anyone that knows...

Can I post in HTML on the forums now? I miss the old forum buttons for BOLD, UNDERLINE, ITALICS, etc... but can save my Word document in HTML format and post it that way if it's possible?

What do you mean?

I have the buttons!

Why don't you?

[heathxxx]

It's ok have fixed it now!

I had to change the settings in my forum user menu. Was only set to basic features before.

[RossoneriGunner]

I also am not a fan of "sets" for tactics. I find most changes can be made simply and effectively from the "base" tactic I use, be they to the shape (formation) or to the mentalities.

"Utility" or "multiple position" players are especially invaluable at smaller clubs with smaller squads, but are also very handy at any level. Good old John O'Shea springs to mind

I think the reason people use 'sets of tactics' is so they can change from defensive to attacking or vice versa quickly, instead of going in and changing each players settings. But I agree that 'sets' still need players settings to be tweaked, for instance I downloaded the Man Utd 442 set, which consisted of attacking, defensive, standard, and control, so that I could examine the difference in the settings made for each player in each particular tactic. So here's a scenario, you decide to change from a defensive to attacking, so you go in and change your tactic, but what happens if you have set your full backs in the attacking mode to cross from the byline but you want him to go no further than just over the halfway line and then cross the ball, you will still have to go in and change his settings anyway, so they have defeated the object of sets in the first place...so I do agree with one standard basic tactic and tweak it to suit.

[vasilli07]

Hi, can anyone explain this to me? Who are the non-floating support players?

As a rough guide, the non‐floating Support players’ mentality instructions determine the most desirable setting for the defensive line.

[RossoneriGunner]

Non-floating players are the players who are 'static' shall we say. Imagine you had a midfield of Nasri......Fabregas......Arshavin, if you had Fabregas making runs between the midfield and the attack he would be the 'floater', floating between midfield and attack and Nasri and Arshavin would be your non floating players

[vasilli07]

Ok...I'm trying to create milan christmas tree formation. So am i suppose to link the d-line since he will be the 1 who will not be attacking? Sorry if i misinterpret you.

DM - Pirlo(support)

CM - Gattuso(defend)

CM - Beckham(support)

[RossoneriGunner]

So if Pirlo and Beckham are making forward runs to support the attack then Gattuso will be your non-floating player who will be the link between the d-line (defenders) and the midfield or support players, so you wont want Gattuso playing to far in front of your d-line otherwise he could be caught in position with no obvious passing options, which could lead you losing possession and getting punished for it.

[vasilli07]

Thanks for the help. So if Gattuso mentality is 11, the d-line can be between 8-10?

[RossoneriGunner]

Thats right or maybe you could try say Gattuso on 12 and the d-line on 9, but keep a check on how they play, you will usually have to change their mentality accordingly to get them to gell, and you may end up with d-line on 7 and Gattuso on 10. Its all about trial and error I'm afraid and dont forget that it will not happen over 2-3 matches you may have to play around 10 matches before you get it right. Good luck.

[mista T]

It's a good thing your an FM mod WWFan, because I'm sure you could go public with an excellent guide like this! will be having a read through later on, possibly printing it out just to get more of an idea on how tactics work

[SFraser]

I have been having a great deal of success in defence using a back four with staggered mentalities and closing down and using the offside trap. My most defensively aware Centre Back effectively operates as a sweeper/offside controller whereas my more aggressive Centre Back defends by attempting to win the ball and is covered by the other. No matter the general mentality of my team the centrebacks are always two mentality notches apart and 5 closing down notches apart. I find that playing to their strengths and combining their respective strengths into a defensive strategy works well no matter the opposition or area of play.

My sweeper is covered on his flank by an aggressive and defensively sound fullback that rarely gets forward whereas my ball winning centreback is covered on his flank by a pacey full back that often supports the midfield. This surrounds each Centre Back with the players required to assist in supporting their roles and defending against there vulnerabilites as a defensive unit, as well as covering the flanks. In short it is a ball winning back 2 or 3 + sweeper with pace for covering and aggression for ball winning, covered at all times by my offside trap.

The defensive capabilities of my defence is something I am pleased with but the defensive capabilities of my midfield four are less than impressive. Basically they end up either standing off and being by-passed completely or chasing around after the ball leaving gaps. I have noticed that high creative freedom and a free role seems to allow my more defensively sound central midfielder to play more intelligently when madly rushing around after the ball, but it is not ideal. I would ideally like a system whereby my midfield cuts off passing options while maintaining their shape, and the man closest to the ball closes down with the help of the strikers. This is something I do not know how to do in principle, before mentality enters the equation.

[jaycar]

I have my problems with the midfield also, the trouble with the rarely/often FWR pairing is that the AI team often has both CM's on often FWR, so they have a habit of just playing one-twos and bypassing the middle of the pitch. With the defensive CM dropping back it leaves gaps.

I've started playing both in a support role, on mixed FWR, they seem to stay a bit more together that way but it isn't perfect by any means. Both are DMC type tough tacklers.

I'm thinking of having them on lower closing down and easy tackling, to see if it creates more of a barrier.

[neckus]

To the authors of this great project. I was wondering if I can get permission to translate this guide into Dutch for dutch FM forum ManagersUnited? Seeing a lot of people on there struggle with FM (me included:D) but also a lot of people do know a single word of english.

[wwfan]

Go ahead.

[Jay1992]

do these tt&f tactics still work on 9.3.0. patch?

[neckus]

do these tt&f tactics still work on 9.3.0. patch?

Yeah, good question. I've just made a 442-pack with this guide and it's going great, allthough now and again I suddenly have a big loss :O

Go ahead.

Thank you very much! We "The Dutch" thank you

[Millie]

Go ahead.

That is a god awful joke, Rich...

[TheBetterHalf]

That is a god awful joke, Rich...

I liked it:thup:. Eaglerly waiting for more

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I have been using my tactic set built on the theories of this t&tf thread and feel I am doing quite well but my tactics all have one weak point (on 9.02) - the long ball / through ball for the AI's FCa, they run riot every time and unless I drop off my d-line it seems even notch 10 for d-line is not good enough. Im using Nike defence - any feedback please?

[heathxxx]

Let's assume you play two midfielders, one is a MC(a), the other is a MC(d).

Why oh why the heck does my AssMan (if I ask him to pick the team) always select my DMC/MC (with all the obvious defensive attributes) in the MC(a) slot and my MC/AMC (again, with all the obvious offensive attributes), in the MC(d) role?

It seems like AssMen have some sort of mental block picking the right player for either role, no matter how good they are supposed to be.

Anyone else see their AssMan make poor or strange decisions like this?

[JacketB]

Heath I have the same problem, always have to swap my cm's to their proper places.

Has anybody been able to create a successful 3 man defence? I am going to create a formation this evening but would appreciate ideas on the best way to go, whether to have a flat back 3 or play a sweeper? should I have wing backs or would this make the team too narrow further upfield and wingers would be better? Thanks!

[PhroX]

Just a little thing I've been pondering. I'm using a conventional 442. Does it matter which way round I put my MC- and FC(a/d)? What I mean is, is it better to have, say, both the FC(d) and MC(d) on the same side of the pitch, or is it better to put the MC(a) with the FC(d) and vice-versa? Or does it make no difference whatsoever?

[heathxxx]

JacketB - That's why I would like an in-game option to say to the AssMan... "Listen mate, you go and stick the kettle on and I'll write the team sheet".

Have never in my entire CM & FM history, used a three man defence. Can't say why in particular, but I've always felt more comfortable with a flat back-four. My "in-game" managerial self should perhaps have a "Tactical Consistency" rating of 20/20 for that

PhroX - To be fair, I couldn't say, but when using a 4-4-2 formation, I stagger how the defensive players line up. Seems ok.

[Sammie B]

i have tried to open the excel document but when i try to change the different types e.g nike defence the stats dont change. i have downloaded the open office and file converted to read the 2007 file but still doesnt work. can you help please ?

[fman1]

Thanks to wwfan and millie for the TT&F. I had ran out of patience the other night when into the start of my third season i lost 1-0 away to a newly promoted Wolves and 1-0 at home to Liverpool after my Keeper stopped the ball then ran away from Torres to allow him to score. Well that was it for me, i started to believe all the threads saying the game is too hard etc and not worth the ££££.

So in one last effort i re read (some) of the TT&F and adjusted the Defence, Standard and Attack tactics i had to the Rule of One and spotted a tatic i didnt have set up, the Control. A nice wee in-between for Standard and Attack so i used it in my next game at home to Spurs. I gubbed them 3-0 and suddenly there was hope, went to Preston and won 3-2 using control again and the started it against Villa at home. After 20 mins i was getting played off the park so switched to balanced and went in at half time 1-0 up. Villa went to a 433 with 10 mins left so i switched to Defence and hit them on the counter to win 2-0.

It may only be 3 games but i have not had a 3 game win streak for a long time so i finished last night a happy man. Fingers crossed it keeps working!

I am playing as Celtic in th EPL after switching us and Rangers for Stoke and Hull.

[JacketB]

As I am making a tacting with 3 at the back i am going top make an away tactic with 2 wing backs and a home formation with 2 wingers. Now I was wondering if the wing backs should use the same settings as DL and DR woiuld use? I was going to use the TT&F 3-5-2 as inspiration for the formation with wingers and the 5-3-2 for the away tactic but just push the DL and DR into wingback positions, but do I need to change there mentalities so they are higher or are the advised DL/DR settings ok for wingbacks?

[Macon]

Great thread. Looking at the recommended mentalities for the different systems, it kind of pre-supposes you're playing a standard 4-4-2.

I've been trying to make a Rule of One 4-4-2 Diamond system, giving my supposedly excellent AMC the suggested MCa mentality of 12 (side midfielders have mentality 11), and he's been rubbish.

I've been mulling it over at work today, and have concluded that as he's starting further forward on the pitch than a MCa does, giving him the recommended MCa mentality will isolate him too far from the rest of the midfield. So tonight, I'm going to try a mentality of 11 for all of the DMC, AMC, ML and MR.

Do you think this makes sense, as a rule of thumb? ie if playing with a DMC, you need to increase the suggested MCd mentality by 1; and if playing with an AMC, you need to decrease the suggested MCa mentality by 1? Or is it just a quirk with my players?

[leedsforever]

Can you upload the TT&F Wizard in .xls format because using .xlsx doesn't work on older versions of Microsoft Excel. Using the compatibility pack doesn't let you change functions to allow you to create a new tactic.

I get this error when using the compatibility pack:

[Sammie B]

with the Nike Defence tactic in the beginning part he says the number which there mentality should be but this is different from the mentality's on the spreadsheet which 1 is correct?

[heathxxx]

Great thread. Looking at the recommended mentalities for the different systems, it kind of pre-supposes you're playing a standard 4-4-2.

I've been trying to make a Rule of One 4-4-2 Diamond system, giving my supposedly excellent AMC the suggested MCa mentality of 12 (side midfielders have mentality 11), and he's been rubbish.

I've been mulling it over at work today, and have concluded that as he's starting further forward on the pitch than a MCa does, giving him the recommended MCa mentality will isolate him too far from the rest of the midfield. So tonight, I'm going to try a mentality of 11 for all of the DMC, AMC, ML and MR.

Do you think this makes sense, as a rule of thumb? ie if playing with a DMC, you need to increase the suggested MCd mentality by 1; and if playing with an AMC, you need to decrease the suggested MCa mentality by 1? Or is it just a quirk with my players?

Hi Macon, although you might be looking for an answer from Millie or wwfan, I might be able to help a little.

I don't play a 4-4-2, but have built a tactic or system than is a hybrid of two idiologies mentioned in TT&F. One is the Rule of One, the other is Bands of Two. I play a flat back four, but with attacking full-backs, two central midfielders (a MCd & MCa), two wingers at AML & AMR, an AMC and a lone striker, as shown below:

Although my formation and tactical setup is very attacking orientated, currently playing as a lower league team where I'm confident I can overload opposition defences, my team plays very well as a unit and average ratings are pretty level across the squad.

With your question in mind regarding the DMC and the AMC, I have my MCd set at the same mentality as my attacking full-backs and my AMC set the same as my wingers. This keeps them well linked together. The "spare" MCa in my team is more of a link-up player between the full-backs/MCd and the AML, AMC, AMR. The MCd has settings which basically make him act like a DMC, as he drops deep in front of the two centre-backs when the opposition is in possession of the ball.

If you want a little more detailed information on how I've set up my own particular tactic, take a look at my thread - FM09 Heathxxx Management Approach (Lower League Edition) - the whole tactic might not be to your preference, but maybe how I've set up my AMC and MCd within the system might give you some options.

[Macon]

Thanks, heathxxx - I'm taking a look at that now...

[zaffy_duck]

is there a general rule on which strikers (when 2 up front) is the more attacking? I mean is it prefferable to play , say, the left forward as FCa and the right as FCd?

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I wish I could draw more attention to the good work in here. Every so called killer tactic that gets a new thread has dozens of replies daily upon opening but this thread is quite quiet in comparison. For me this is where it all happens, though I also include heathxxx and The Game TM 's efforts in the same category.

[heathxxx]

Aye, it's often the case that the post titles draw the crowds. I had a bit of a laught with it last year. I posted a "Super" tactic for FM08 on April Fools Day. The thing that made me laugh the most was there were sooooo many hints in the opening post I wrote, that it was in fact bogus. I think it got a few thousand hits that day. Even when the penny had dropped, people still posted to say how great this tactic was. The joke was, it was a default game tactic I uploaded.

Here's a link to the original post - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=15703

[newgeneration manager]

how do you create a 2-6-2

[SJ234]

I am arsenal and I want to replicate the way they play irl, and i sm using role theory but more attacking and more difference between attack and defence. the football I play is good but i can't keep posession, how can i keep the ball more often?

[SSGTroyer]

I've not read the entirety of the post for this, so if it's been asked and answered, I apologize.

On the individual instructions page, there is, over the defensive half of the mentality slide, a pull-down menu labeled "Set To..." SI has told us several times this pull down is editable via the attending .xml.

My question is this, and probably obvious by now...has anyone edited this pull-down to TTF roles? And if so, where might I find such an edited .xml?

[Flek]

I've not read the entirety of the post for this, so if it's been asked and answered, I apologize.

On the individual instructions page, there is, over the defensive half of the mentality slide, a pull-down menu labeled "Set To..." SI has told us several times this pull down is editable via the attending .xml.

My question is this, and probably obvious by now...has anyone edited this pull-down to TTF roles? And if so, where might I find such an edited .xml?

That is a very nice ideia

I need an opinion. I am managing Sunderland and I have a small(may be big) problem: after 13 league games my strikers just produced 2 goals, and they were in the first 2 league games, both scored by D.Cissé. Although in the macro things are going as expected lying 14th with 1 lacking point to the magic one number places, plus I am facing the easy teams in the league in 5 out of the last games.

I don't really know how to use Cissé. If I emplay FWR often he will just lose the ball, as his dribling skill as far from good (12 Dribling) and his pace won't fill the lack of skills. I am using him as a FCa in a 4-4-2. I am not employing a counter-attacking-long-direct-passing system as when I used it, the results weren't good. I don't think he can be a FCd, he doesn't seem to have the ability to do so. I wan't to take the most out of him can you guys give me some input on how to make actually a fearfull weapon in my attack?

[Macon]

I've edited the .xml file before. It's dead easy.

You're probably best off doing it yourself, though: a comprehensive TTF set would be really unwieldy - for example, think of all those different full back mentalities, depending on whether you're playing role theory, Bands of Two, Nike defence etc - and then in defensive, standard and attacking versions of the tactic. Then multiply that up for every position.

If you do it yourself, then you don't need to bother with mentality systems you have no intention of using

[SSGTroyer]

I've edited the .xml file before. It's dead easy.

You're probably best off doing it yourself, though: a comprehensive TTF set would be really unwieldy - for example, think of all those different full back mentalities, depending on whether you're playing role theory, Bands of Two, Nike defence etc - and then in defensive, standard and attacking versions of the tactic. Then multiply that up for every position.

If you do it yourself, then you don't need to bother with mentality systems you have no intention of using

Actually, I was thinking of one .xml for each of BoT, RoO, RoT, roles, Nike, etc...in a .zipped set that would require the user select one and rename it...So that would be, what, 27 or so per pulldown? Should fit on a standard screen...

I may well devote some time to this over the next week or so, but in truth, I'm very new to this TTF business, and am not sure I would get the settings right. I'm presuming I could lift them off the Excel wizard, though...

[giblets_of_fire]

Firstly thanks to everyone invloved in creating this Tactics Bible, my understanding of the game deepened more in 20 minuites in this thread. than 8 years of CM/FM.

I wondered what peoples thoughts on the following scenario where:

My Hitchin side (now in the chanpionship) have too electric wingers and as we have a huge home pitch I look to make them the focus of my attacks and have passing focus set to 'down both flanks' as a result. However i also have a cracking little cm in the mould of Xabi Alonso with the physicallity of Michael Essien.

My question is how would the game engine cope with having a tactical setup focused on the wingers, but with the 'use playmaker' ticked and my CM as that playmaker. Would it be the case that my team would look to find my CM who could the distribute it to the wingers, or would the match engine get itself confused with a centrally located playmaker whilst being told to focus down the wings!

Any ideas?

[Macon]

I may well devote some time to this over the next week or so, but in truth, I'm very new to this TTF business, and am not sure I would get the settings right. I'm presuming I could lift them off the Excel wizard, though...

Think there are quite a few cases where Excel wizard contradicts the PDF, and it's been confirmed that the PDF is right, so be careful...

[Rio_V]

So, as usual, I am using my own brand of this tactical philosophy and getting success.

But I have a question:

I am in promotion playoffs with two teams, one in CH and one in L2. Through the first leg, it seems as if most of the indicators for choosing a tactic - odds, report on how opposition plays, form, position, morale - aren't really applying.

For example, I am playing Rotherham. We finished 7th v. 4th place Shrewsbury. First leg is Home.

Odds are 2-5 for me and 13-2 for them! Pretty good.

And, we beat them at home 2-1 last time.

Form has been excellent. Actually won last game on Road v. 7th place team to leapfrong them into playoff.

Report says Shrewsbury play defensive 442 and hit on counter.

One odditiy worth noting, my morale is "little better than average" which makes zero sense since we have been streaking. (Any thoughts would be appreciated as to why that would happen.)

So, my thought here is to do what I would normally do at Home, Attack. I do.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3152/rukiddingme.png

Down 0-2 in 5 minutes. It was like a meteor shower. And, that is how it ends. I hit the crossbar twice.

So, just wondering, should I have treated this game differently b/c it is a playoff and gone out with a Balanced lineup and played safe? Frustrating b/c we are Home and the instinct and indicators suggest to take it to them.

An interesting follow up is that the 2nd Leg Scouting Report said they play defensive, but that didn't look very defensive to open the game.

[wwfan]

Firstly thanks to everyone invloved in creating this Tactics Bible, my understanding of the game deepened more in 20 minuites in this thread. than 8 years of CM/FM.

I wondered what peoples thoughts on the following scenario where:

My Hitchin side (now in the chanpionship) have too electric wingers and as we have a huge home pitch I look to make them the focus of my attacks and have passing focus set to 'down both flanks' as a result. However i also have a cracking little cm in the mould of Xabi Alonso with the physicallity of Michael Essien.

My question is how would the game engine cope with having a tactical setup focused on the wingers, but with the 'use playmaker' ticked and my CM as that playmaker. Would it be the case that my team would look to find my CM who could the distribute it to the wingers, or would the match engine get itself confused with a centrally located playmaker whilst being told to focus down the wings!

Any ideas?

That would work perfectly well. You should see the playmaker hitting angled balls behind the opposing FBs for the wingers to run on to.

[giblets_of_fire]

That would work perfectly well. You should see the playmaker hitting angled balls behind the opposing FBs for the wingers to run on to.

So it would be wise to set the playmaker to maybe 11/12 on the passing slider? Im also guessing this would be more effective against more positive opponents where the FB's push forward?

[spontaneus]

do these tt&f tactics still work on 9.3.0. patch?

Very good question

[Millie]

Very good question

The theories should be universal. And by universal, I mean they were tested on FM08, FM09 and FML, and as far as we can tell should work on FM07, 06 and 05 also.

[spontaneus]

Thank you, Millie

I have a question about Role Theory.

In the attack framework is mentality of "non-Floating" players the same of standard one or have I to raise outfield settings???

Thanks and Sorry for my very poor english......

[PhroX]

Thank you, Millie

I have a question about Role Theory.

In the attack framework is mentality of "non-Floating" players the same of standard one or have I to raise outfield settings???

Thanks and Sorry for my very poor english......

This is what TTF has to say:

To design a complementary attacking strategy, simply raise each value by four to eight notches, depending on your standard settings. For a defensive strategy, lower by four to eight.

So the mentality for each role will increase by 4-8, hence all players will change by this. In addition, the "floaters" change role, so their mentality changes further.

I posted an example of how to set up the mentailites for attacking, balanced and defensive role theory tactics in this thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=113764

I'm pretty sure I interpreted it right, as it worked very well when I had a good team, though less so with a lower quality of players - which is exactly what you'd expect from Role Theory.

[spontaneus]

thank you PhroX,

Is RoO system more appropriate for a lower-medium Quality team???