Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[LarsTFC]

Following principles (not the words to the T) found in these guides I've developed my own 4-4-1-1 that has turned my toronto fc team from an annual 4th place finisher, then losing in the eastern semi-final to a team that has since won two mls cups.

[wwfan]

WWfan, any chance of a revised issue of the T&TF document - I presume there must be some changes after the feedback / playtesting since release? Also you would be the man to draw up a tabled form of instructions for "which tactic to use when" (v's match odds / AI formation) & "team talks". I still have situations where the odds combined with the pitch size, Oppos form & formation leaves me not having a clue which tactic to use (or to be more precise I would have 2 clear ideas on very different starting tactics but no idea how to select wisely).

There won't be a revised version this year, mainly because Millie and I are so busy with the FML Beta and the development of its new tactical system, which has moved on a fair few steps even since this blog. However, I do keep on reading TT&F and continue to pick up ideas from its contributors and think the general level of discussion is excellent.

For those struggling with away games, home performance is slightly overtweaked in FM (by about 6%) so winning away is difficult. The basic element is awareness of the chance your team has to win the match and man/tactical manage accordingly. If odds are heavily against you, take off all the pressure and defend. Even a point in these situations is an achievement. Once you start beginning to be favourites, you need to push towards Control and even Attacking strategies, but be ready to become more conservative once you grab the lead. It took my three seasons to start winning regularly away in the Premiership with a promoted club. Now I win/draw most of my away games. However, they need, and rightly so, far more atention to detail than home games.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

There won't be a revised version this year, mainly because Millie and I are so busy with the FML Beta and the development of its new tactical system, which has moved on a fair few steps even since this blog. However, I do keep on reading TT&F and continue to pick up ideas from its contributors and think the general level of discussion is excellent.

For those struggling with away games, home performance is slightly overtweaked in FM (by about 6%) so winning away is difficult. The basic element is awareness of the chance your team has to win the match and man/tactical manage accordingly. If odds are heavily against you, take off all the pressure and defend. Even a point in these situations is an achievement. Once you start beginning to be favourites, you need to push towards Control and even Attacking strategies, but be ready to become more conservative once you grab the lead. It took my three seasons to start winning regularly away in the Premiership with a promoted club. Now I win/draw most of my away games. However, they need, and rightly so, far more atention to detail than home games.

We wouldn't want to stop you working on the new tactical system, that's for sure!

The points you make are interesting. I love & believe in your theories but am now going to give an example of total contradiction of them.

My last friendly, as St Etienne Away v's Malmo was a pretty certain Malmo home win by pre match odds. However everything about them (pre match scouting, my own scouting etc) told me that "Control" was best, due to all the width & required attacking options built in (I use a set of your T&TF inspired tactics). I should have been Defensive, logically, but that suggested both teams sitting back cancelling each other out and, as you alluded to, if you cannot create an advantage away then you will probably suffer a disadvantage.

I dominated the match and won 2-0. I had made some logical tweaks over and above the pre-set's, but again I was using your theories & some other minor influences.

I would like to know your thoughts on this, it wasn't a freak result, I really felt "in Control" although that wasn't how the game would have been expected to go.

To sum up:

I am not detracting from the T&TF theory doc, far from it, in this case the tactics I have built on it's advice have given me this small success. I guess this example highlights the complexity & cleverness of the game whilst giving hope that "your own tactical way", if derived with the prior knowledge of this T&Tf, can get results. Some would say that my 2-0 is proof of the randomness of FM09 - but again, not so in my view, although I chose a tactical "way" that was not immediately obvious as correct, it took enough advantage of the AI's set up that the outcome was truely earned.

NB as team talks are often considered too influential I should like to confirm that in the above example I utilised the Ass Man's advice: KO = you can win!, HT = encourage (though I was actually very "pleased"!)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Have now played my 2nd "serious" St Etienne Friendly, V's Liverpool (their strongest line up selected!), again concentraing on the theories I derived for the previous match. Used Control again, tweaked to suit, surely too offensive a tactic agianst such favoured opposition? Shaded the game on stats, had Gerrard in my pocket!, and drew 1-1. Awesome, considering!

[daleuk8]

Hi please can you help?

I'm playing as middlesbrough in 9.3 update, i'm really struggling to get relsults. i'm using the ro0 templates with as few tweaks, i'm also fowllowing aadvice not to to go to attacking from the start, using standard at home, deff away. but not having much luck. for example playing liverpool away i go 4 down in 30mins..i know this will be a hard game but every chance they get they score..any advice?

[crouchaldinho]

How are the team talks going daleuk7 - is that perhaps part of the problem?

Maybe you're going too defensive away from home? How did Liverpool approach the game?

Maybe start off more balanced and see how you progress next time?

C.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

How are the team talks going [bdaleuk7[/b] - is that perhaps part of the problem?

Maybe you're going too defensive away from home? How did Liverpool approach the game?

Maybe start off more balanced and see how you progress next time?

C.

I have recently discovered that generally against good teams who like to keep possession (eg Liverpool) keeping possession yourselves can help thus I may try Control. Although perceived as an attacking tactic it keeps the ball and can frustrate the AI. Just a thought.

Have never tried it at Anfield though!

[daleuk8]

could i have some help on creating a control tactic

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I have recently discovered that generally against good teams who like to keep possession (eg Liverpool) keeping possession yourselves can help thus I may try Control. Although perceived as an attacking tactic it keeps the ball and can frustrate the AI. Just a thought.

Have never tried it at Anfield though!

Have just realised my theory is flawed away from home! Dont do as I advised :-(

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

could i have some help on creating a control tactic

The answer in in these inital posts! Dont use Nike defence until you understand it though, I would suggest.

[Peo]

Excellent guide, I've made a set based on the Libero defence and it's working well, thanks. One slight problem though, it relates to away games against opposition stronger than myself. Going with your theories, I start with the Defensive variant and I get plastered. 40% possession, no shots whilst the opposition run me ragged, I'm usually 2-0 down at Half-Time. I tell my team I'm disappointed, switch to the Standard tactic and produce a superb fightback to snatch a point. A point is a good result, don't get me wrong, I'm just dismayed to how my team can play so poorly with the Defensive tactic. I re-loaded the file and replayed the match, this time I selected standard from the start. Exactly the same happened, with the result finishing 2-2.

Is there anything I can do to stop my team being slaughtered in the first 20 mins? I tried setting a more defensive tactic, but I just seem to surrender possession easily. However, I still feel the problem is tactical opose to a problem with my team-talks.

Has anyone had a similar problem?

[daleuk8]

Excellent guide, I've made a set based on the Libero defence and it's working well, thanks. One slight problem though, it relates to away games against opposition stronger than myself. Going with your theories, I start with the Defensive variant and I get plastered. 40% possession, no shots whilst the opposition run me ragged, I'm usually 2-0 down at Half-Time. I tell my team I'm disappointed, switch to the Standard tactic and produce a superb fightback to snatch a point. A point is a good result, don't get me wrong, I'm just dismayed to how my team can play so poorly with the Defensive tactic. I re-loaded the file and replayed the match, this time I selected standard from the start. Exactly the same happened, with the result finishing 2-2.

Is there anything I can do to stop my team being slaughtered in the first 20 mins? I tried setting a more defensive tactic, but I just seem to surrender possession easily. However, I still feel the problem is tactical opose to a problem with my team-talks.

Has anyone had a similar problem?

i'm having the same problem..i've tried getting intouch with wwfan, but as of yet no luck.. don't get me wrong i'm not expecting to win every game, but this seems to have been a problem since i installed the new patch, so clearly something has changed. All i keep being told is to tweak, but tweak what i'm not sure. i'm not sure if the mentalities are to low on the defensive tactic..

[Flek]

I have a doubt if I employ a winger with rarely TTB or CB and always RB what will he do? He dribles and then what does he do?

[SFraser]

In away games against opposition stronger than yourself a simple defensive variation of your current competitive, football match playing tactic is highly unlikely to succeed.

As much as tactics determine games, the opposite is also correct in that games determine tactics. If you look at for example Manchester United of last season in the European Cup Semi Finals you will see the most defensive setup employed by Manchester United that I have ever seen, certainly the most defensive setup Ferguson has ever employed and perhaps the most defensive setup ever employed by Manchester United.

Simply switching to a defensive variation of current tactics may not work in certain circumstances. Sometimes you are faced with an opponent where you have to completely redesign your entire tactical approach for that specific game beyond the bounds of what you are used to, and setup to defend against them and counter attack to the best of your abilities with the players you have.

There are games in a season where winning means ignoring the wider tactical systems that prevail against the meat of your opposition, where you have to ensure you completely nullify every potential threat your opponent provides, and construct from that basis a system that includes some measure of attacking potential. Sometimes you have to concede that in a straight up contest of general footballing ability you will lose, so that you can devote your attention to tactical superiority and defeat your opponent through nullifying their strengths and exploiting their weaknesses. No manager likes to concede the superiority of general footballing ability to the opponent, but the best managers not only do it, but know exactly when to do it, and they know what must be done to counter it, even if it means percentages and luck.

Teams like Arsenal and Barcelona for the big club manager are precisely this kind of situation. No matter who you are you must respect their attacking capability, while realising that your only hope of success is nullifying their strengths and exploiting their weaknesses.

In the FA Cup final of last season as Manchester United manager versus Arsenal, I knew my only opportunity to win if Arsenal were motivated correctly was to man mark every single player in their front line and midfield while providing a sweeper to deal with mistakes, and at the same time utilise my remaining three players as both coverage of the flanks and lethal attacking threats. What began as a 4-4-2 and entered the field in 4-4-2 shape ended up much like a 6-3-1 throughout the course of the match with me man marking their entire midfield and front line and leaving a sweeper, while dropping a striker deep to harrass their midfield and pick the ball up and conduct my limited but high mentality attacking operations. The final score was 2-2 with me winning on penalties.

[Peo]

Thanks for the reply, I can see the logic in that. Allow me to explain further.

I'm playing as Doncaster, predicted 23rd, against Wolves, predicted 6th but more likely to achieve automatic promotion. I watched their previous match, they attack down the wings and get ball into the box at every opportunity. To counter this I selected two defensive wide players and doubled up on the opposition wingers. As you suggested, I totally revamped by approach to deal with their threats and to attack on the counter. I was totally dominated in the first 20, I had little or no possession and went 2-0 behind. I switched to my normal tactic and got it back to 2-2. I presume their was a fault with my tweaked set-up, so I replayed the game with my standard version and the game played out exactly the same. I'm wondering if there's a setting that relates to how confidently your team start a match, i.e. start with a high tempo to try get a foothold early.

Any suggestions? Thanks for the reply SFraser, but my question still remains unanswered.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Guys,

As a forty something latecomer to FM (I only caught the bug with FM2008) I found it a bit of a slog getting into the game. Frustration with putting my own tweaks on the standard tactics (thereby getting roundly thrashed consistently) lead to me using tactics created by others to try to understand the game better. I became somewhat dissillusioned when using things like Kimz tactics which lead to me often going through a whole season undefeated and winning every competition I entered. With my Rangers team working on one of the tweaked britsh league DB's I won the league 12 years in a row and CL 11 in a row. It was fun for a while and then I realised I could put the game into holiday mode and still win just about everything.

Now that I have a basic understanding of how the game works I will use these threads as a way of building tactics around my own players strengths and weaknesses. I will also avoid things like genie scout which also make things far too easy. I also fell into the trap of using scout to ID good youngsters and develop them at no cost, often selling them later at huge profit. Improvements in the scouting and transfer system in FM09 will hopefully make this unnecessary.

I am totally in awe of how much effort you guys have put into the development of TT&F. I will look at my team, work out its strengths and use one of your formation tactics to buld my own system. I have no doubt that your efforts will lead to a huge increase in enjoyment of the game for myself and others.

Many many thanks and much kudos for your time and effort on behalf of us all.

regards

Alan

Some tactics out there are known as "cheat" tactics and you tend to win only because of certain flaws.

Some tactics have things like "challenge keeper" and as you have stated many use scout programs to cheat.

I use save game editors only to balance obvious flaws like 20 heading/5 speed for a 5'3'' player or what not.

I am playing "lowish" league football with Watford using tactics created from this thread and was bottom of the league at the start of the campaign. However I am a newbie manager in this save and I brought in 11 new faces and I read on the guide that just to try and stop the negatives during this initial phase. Most defeats were 1-0.

After 6-7 games in, some players are beginning to gel and I have evolved my tactics over time.

Right now ive pushed up to 15th place and we are winning away but drawing/losing at home. So more tweaks to come!

Like suggested above, I have started to emply an "away" 442 tactic and a "home" 442 tactic. Bother are 4-4-2 but tactically completely different with sliders etc.

I especially love how I now have a DM who plays like I want them to and strikers that

interchange with eachother better (one playing deeper etc)

Nice guide, makes you understand the game a lot more.

Thanks!

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

wwfan, or anyone with the same understanding of these T&TF tactics, some help please if you should drop in. I am using the T&TF tactic set, created from the document, using the O'Neil defence with St Etienne (a "Lge 1 top half finish" bet). My query is this, I have tried various tweaks to the basic tactics but seem to overcomplicate things no matter how "sensible" I try to make my changes, so now I dont tweak before KO!. Also I try to ascertain the KO set up to best counter the opp AI's team. Mostly this seems to work if untweaked, I am winning quite regularly by a single goal. However, sometimes it goes wrong and I am under immense pressure. I try switching the set eg from def to control if im under seige (so the ball is held by me further up field, allbeit in a more attacking tactic). Sometimes nothing seems to have any effect and I end up rotating through the tactics desperate for an in match advantage, at which point it seems that to go Attacking away from home even as an underdog does not seem to disadvantage me more that the logical lesser switches. So why is this? Also I read (elsewhere!) that you should always attack if at home regardless of odds as the Home team "bias" will most often work in your favour. Im confused now!

Also my players constantly seem to be muscled off the ball in 50/50 challenges, but I do not have weak players. And oppo AI strikers always play off my DC's shoulders giving them endless runs through on goal. My keeper does seem to save nearly all though. My DC's are approx pace/acc 14, so not too bad. This feels like a bug now :-(

[danielkirby07]

Why on earth did I ignore these guides for so long?!?! great stuff here, and I can see the diffrence in my tactics already. I am trying to download the guides on the first post though and the crib sheet is a broken link, is there anotehr way of downloading this?

Thanks!

[wwfan]

Each link has the same folders in it, so you only need to download from one.

[danielkirby07]

Thanks wwfan, i realised when i started unzipping them!

[danielkirby07]

After reading through the TTF guide I have designed my own tactic from scratch (tried and failed in disastrous fashion in the past) and the early signs are good. I have started a new game with Leeds and want to play attractive attacking football. I have only signed one player (Steve Marlet on a free) and so far after winning most of my friendles I am flying!.

Played 6, won 5 and drawn 1. I also had West ham in the league cup and only lost with a goal in last minute of extra time! Will report back at end of the season.

[Tristan_Nieve]

I've read in TTF document that is not advisable to give free roles for strikers, but in the TTF tactic there's free roles ticked for both strikers. Why does this happen?

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I cannot believe the lack of activity in this thread, probably the most useful ever in FM history.

I feel I am monopolising a little every time I Post but I must share this.

As St Etienne I am using a T&TF inspired 5 tactic set Att/Cont/Stnd/Def/Shut up shop. In my first season I achieved to expectation but my defence was "dodgy". I realised a bit late on that my Nike defence was not best suited to my players (I chose it as I wanted the Mourinho kind of thing to be going on but that takes more that a split mentallity for the DC's, apparantly!). So inspired by reading about Brian Clough I switched to the O'Neil Ro1. This looked better but some of the silly things were still occuring (outmuscled in midfield, outpaced in defence, wasteful with possession - and all the tweaks which should help such issues were not working).

I had almost reached the stage of thinking that these were "issues" that you just live with in FM09, am loving the game generally so not too disppointed and Ro1 is slight improvement on "Nike". Then I had a "Road to Damascus" experience (actually was "Road to Ajaccio" in this case!). Having just won 5-2 away I realised that the score was about the only good thing about it. Every aspect of our play was poor and all the sensible tweaks were not helping. What to do.....?

At this point I remebered that the T&TF document has a lot of pre-amble about how you want your team to play, it is not just a list of slider settings, so as I had skimmed these on release day I revisited & re-read. This became apparant: Nike was wrong for me (the confirmation I expected) but Ro1 is probably for a less techincally gifted team than mine, I have built a reasonable squad in the 14 "game" months in charge. It all pointed to changing to the "Ferguson" Ro2, and sat in the bath last night the thought of a Counter Attacking team playing like the Utd of Giggs/Kanchelskis/Sharpe of 14 yrs ago with awesome wingplay really appealed. So I decided that was the way to go.

I felt there may be a problem though, as the base for a tactical switch revolves around the "Ro2" defence advice I was expecting some revolutionary slider tweaking, but not so. The difference between Ro1 and Ro2 was just the following mentality tweaks: MCa -1, MCd -1 !!!!. Just 2 notches changed across the whole team, sounds way ineffectual but wwfan gives a good argument for it so I gave it a go.

(its early days but the difference is soooooo noticable):

Away v's Lorient (FR. L1) Now Lorient were 4th in the league and I find them a bogey team (dont know why?). I was favourite, just, but a draw in reallity would be a good result. Actual result Lorient 1 St Etienne 4 !, and their goal was a 93rd min effort. Total domination reflected in the scoreline for Les Verts (St Et.)!

Away v's Anderlecht (Europa League / "Euro Cup") This was a toughie, we were underdogs and any positive result would be good in theory. Again we totally dominated and the 0-0 result was an injustice, we were "unlucky". A late sending off didnt help us.

Add to this 1 Reseve team fixture which was an absolute walkover, you can see that results were good. All of this achieved with the "Standard" version of the set (Ro2 version, obviously!).

Results do not tell the full story either, wwfan tells how link up play between the bands of play and the interchanging of players within the bands, especially the ML/MR/MCa relationship, will give an attractive appearance to the play of a "quality" team, and my experience totally supports this. 2 first team matches in to the change - yes it is early days, but all is looking good. I have to say I have not noted the "Counter Attacking" I aimed for but that may come from the more direct Defensive variants, time will tell, am pleased though. Also I cannot claim to be producing a "Wingplay dream" but I have not focussed passing to the flanks yet, that contradicts the T&TF a bit?, and my wingers have been MOM's, which says something.

Anyone else experiment with these frameworks to a similar effect?.

[vasilli07]

A question, if I don't put any targetman in the box but I ticked 'run onto ball' in the targetman settings, does it actually do anything?

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I cannot believe the lack of activity in this thread, probably the most useful ever in FM history.

I feel I am monopolising a little every time I Post but I must share this.

As St Etienne I am using a T&TF inspired 5 tactic set Att/Cont/Stnd/Def/Shut up shop. In my first season I achieved to expectation but my defence was "dodgy". I realised a bit late on that my Nike defence was not best suited to my players (I chose it as I wanted the Mourinho kind of thing to be going on but that takes more that a split mentallity for the DC's, apparantly!). So inspired by reading about Brian Clough I switched to the O'Neil Ro1. This looked better but some of the silly things were still occuring (outmuscled in midfield, outpaced in defence, wasteful with possession - and all the tweaks which should help such issues were not working).

I had almost reached the stage of thinking that these were "issues" that you just live with in FM09, am loving the game generally so not too disppointed and Ro1 is slight improvement on "Nike". Then I had a "Road to Damascus" experience (actually was "Road to Ajaccio" in this case!). Having just won 5-2 away I realised that the score was about the only good thing about it. Every aspect of our play was poor and all the sensible tweaks were not helping. What to do.....?

At this point I remebered that the T&TF document has a lot of pre-amble about how you want your team to play, it is not just a list of slider settings, so as I had skimmed these on release day I revisited & re-read. This became apparant: Nike was wrong for me (the confirmation I expected) but Ro1 is probably for a less techincally gifted team than mine, I have built a reasonable squad in the 14 "game" months in charge. It all pointed to changing to the "Ferguson" Ro2, and sat in the bath last night the thought of a Counter Attacking team playing like the Utd of Giggs/Kanchelskis/Sharpe of 14 yrs ago with awesome wingplay really appealed. So I decided that was the way to go.

I felt there may be a problem though, as the base for a tactical switch revolves around the "Ro2" defence advice I was expecting some revolutionary slider tweaking, but not so. The difference between Ro1 and Ro2 was just the following mentality tweaks: MCa -1, MCd -1 !!!!. Just 2 notches changed across the whole team, sounds way ineffectual but wwfan gives a good argument for it so I gave it a go.

(its early days but the difference is soooooo noticable):

Away v's Lorient (FR. L1) Now Lorient were 4th in the league and I find them a bogey team (dont know why?). I was favourite, just, but a draw in reallity would be a good result. Actual result Lorient 1 St Etienne 4 !, and their goal was a 93rd min effort. Total domination reflected in the scoreline for Les Verts (St Et.)!

Away v's Anderlecht (Europa League / "Euro Cup") This was a toughie, we were underdogs and any positive result would be good in theory. Again we totally dominated and the 0-0 result was an injustice, we were "unlucky". A late sending off didnt help us.

Add to this 1 Reseve team fixture which was an absolute walkover, you can see that results were good. All of this achieved with the "Standard" version of the set (Ro2 version, obviously!).

Results do not tell the full story either, wwfan tells how link up play between the bands of play and the interchanging of players within the bands, especially the ML/MR/MCa relationship, will give an attractive appearance to the play of a "quality" team, and my experience totally supports this. 2 first team matches in to the change - yes it is early days, but all is looking good. I have to say I have not noted the "Counter Attacking" I aimed for but that may come from the more direct Defensive variants, time will tell, am pleased though. Also I cannot claim to be producing a "Wingplay dream" but I have not focussed passing to the flanks yet, that contradicts the T&TF a bit?, and my wingers have been MOM's, which says something.

Anyone else experiment with these frameworks to a similar effect?.

Have just realised that my Ro1 setings were originally a bit out so the difference to Ro2 should have been 5-6 notches across the team for mentality, not just 2!. Still seems a very slight change for the "results" achieved though, but not complaining!

I really wish there was an "official" T&TF youtube style video showing the tactic implementation and tweaks & ME reactions, which ties in exacly with the guide, so I could understand the "theory" in practice more. When I "trial" things the effects are hugely effected & distorted by the team I select and the opposition played.

[boomheadshot45]

I can't thank you guys enough (wwfan, Millie, zagallo, justified, Jaswarbrick, and Asmodeus). I was a complete n00b to FM, I bought it about a week ago, I read this, and now I know what to do. I could sometimes beat a team easily or struggle to find a goal. I hadn't really thought about each player, and how each one is needed to create successful tactics. I'm playing as Arsenal, and I've already been using Role Theory's basic formation, but I'm gonna add the necessary tactics, thanks again. But quick question, this relates to TT&F '09, is there anyway to motivate your players? They have high morale but my assistant tells me my players are struggling to motivate themselves.

[wwfan]

That will just be down to your managerial reputation, which will be too low for top players. Over time, this will disappear.

[boomheadshot45]

Thank you very much.

[leedsforever]

Is it only me that finds these tactics just don't work? I've made an attacking, standard and defensive version of a basic tactic: 4-4-2 with a global mentality and they simply don't work. The team plays so inconsistently it's unreal. I can only beat teams stronger than me and it ends up with me thrashing them or getting thrashed by them. I can't beat weaker teams at all.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Is it only me that finds these tactics just don't work? I've made an attacking, standard and defensive version of a basic tactic: 4-4-2 with a global mentality and they simply don't work. The team plays so inconsistently it's unreal. I can only beat teams stronger than me and it ends up with me thrashing them or getting thrashed by them. I can't beat weaker teams at all.

I find these tactics do work although I am only achieving just above expectation. I have 2 observations though:

a/ I cannot say "weaker" teams give me a problem but I can say "underdog" (ie when I am odds on to win) teams ALWAYS seem to give me a problem. I feel it is a problem with FM09 although this is "debateable" (!) so they tell me!

b/ I have found that the defence setting framework is critical to your team but generally the Fergie Ro2 seems to be most forgiving at most levels.

I have just made an experiment that I call "Muppet Manager", basically what I have done is to let the Ass Man do all he can, Presss conferences, team talks, team selection. I just manage the tactics in game and make any obvious switch if after a 10 min spell I am not in control of the match. It does mean several switches in some matches, and you need to grasp wwfans musings to make the correct educated switch, but it achieves!

I have won every match played in a few experimental matches as Stafford, Ipswich & St Etienne (random selections). Sadly my save game (St Etienne) has all gone wrong now due think to my scattergun player signing startegy - most of the players are unhappy as they "dont play" (they cant all play!) so squad moral is in freefall.

I will either persevere or re-set up as Southampton (a challenge), Bournemouth (ditto!), Liverpool or Newport County/Blyth Spartans/Basingstoke (cant decide which non-league, but would be borrowing tips from Heathxxx's excellent LLM thread on "Club Management").

Anyone who does not believe in the Gospel according to St Wwfan, I would recommend that you do a few trials as I did - it restores faith.

[heathxxx]

tigerhgrrrrrr - The main aim of my thread, even though I did post a tactic I was going to use, was more to pull people away from tactics and to embrace things as a whole. I believe that it's entirely possible to enjoy great success in FM by building/downloading/using, any reasonable tactic, building a team around it.

Ok, it's fair to say that you should have some idea about tactics, real-life or "game" approaches, but I find my approach leans more towards the days when management games were simpler and it was mostly about squad building. Don't get me wrong, I love the tactical side. It's just it seems that as the game has become more complex, people are finding they are struggling to get to grips with things tactically. My approach therefore is more of a "back-to-basics" as we all know that generally, if you have the "best" team, you're more likely to win games. By looking at suitable players within a tactic, you don't actually need the "best" individuals, far from it. I've built "teams" with players who are far from world-class, but have just the right attributes I require of them. If you understand more about player attributes and their relationship with positions and roles, there's actually no reason why you can't build a team around a simple 4-4-2, or even with a little simple tweaking, something from the default menu.

[axehan1]

getting a new computer this week so am waiting till then to buy fm 09(i know it will almost be the end of the season lol but it will tide me over during the off season)so meanwhile i am reading the tt&f trying to get a good tactic set down on paper,the 4-4-2 libero tactic is what i will be going for,but reading along i noticed that the libero is used in the support/ attack role....is it possible that he can be pencilled in as one of the defender roles but still coming out of defence to link the play with midfield/wingers etc?and if so what tweaks if any would be needed to his positional/playing instructions?

[jswarb001]

Just got FM09 and looked at ths thread. (My son jaswarbrick actually wrote the mentatility libero piece). Do the tactics suggested in the guide work for version 9.3 as well or would they need tweaking since the original version?

[heathxxx]

jswarb001 - No reason why not, as the basic principals have been going for a number of releases of the game and the core of the game hasn't changed that much over recent years. Always best to use any of these (and other guides) as a platform that once you're comfortable with, try experimenting with things bit by bit.

[boomheadshot45]

I'm playing as Man U, playing a 4-4-2. I have my CBs go back, don't close down too often. My backs will go up, but not too far. I have one CM act as a DM, he rarely goes forward, holds up the ball, and has a defensive mentality. I can score, but I can never get clean sheets. Most of the goals come from small gaps in between my defensive line. I don't know how to remove these gaps, nor do I know how to defend from crosses well. I put on tight marking, and its man, I'm thinking I should put it on zonal marking. Any suggestions?

[Macgyver0]

What Mentality Systems should I use? I want one that makes me achieve the board objectives.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

tigerhgrrrrrr - The main aim of my thread, even though I did post a tactic I was going to use, was more to pull people away from tactics and to embrace things as a whole. I believe that it's entirely possible to enjoy great success in FM by building/downloading/using, any reasonable tactic, building a team around it.

Ok, it's fair to say that you should have some idea about tactics, real-life or "game" approaches, but I find my approach leans more towards the days when management games were simpler and it was mostly about squad building. Don't get me wrong, I love the tactical side. It's just it seems that as the game has become more complex, people are finding they are struggling to get to grips with things tactically. My approach therefore is more of a "back-to-basics" as we all know that generally, if you have the "best" team, you're more likely to win games. By looking at suitable players within a tactic, you don't actually need the "best" individuals, far from it. I've built "teams" with players who are far from world-class, but have just the right attributes I require of them. If you understand more about player attributes and their relationship with positions and roles, there's actually no reason why you can't build a team around a simple 4-4-2, or even with a little simple tweaking, something from the default menu.

Oh I agree. And your LLM Altrincham thread is great, has ispired me to do the same some day,... but I will ignore your tactic!. I will probably use wwfans theory produced 442 - im comfortable with that, but the rest of it is a good guide I think.

Actually I love tweaking but I always over do it and that leads to disappointing results :-(, hence the "Muppet Manager" idea (AKA The Manager who needs to take all the advice & help that his assitants give him.)

[leedsforever]

I have created an XML Pack including every theorem covered in this thread. The pack consists of two xmls for each theorem: 4-4-2 Standard and 4-5-1 Standard. Please read the README.txt file before using this.

Download link: http://rapidshare.com/files/226453728/TTF_.xml.zip.html

Alternative: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P0RD96V6

EDIT: Feel free to use this, distribute it and include it in future releases if you feel it is beneficial.

[simonbyrneno.4]

Could someone explain the Fergies Rule of Two tactic to me? Is it because it's a mixture of an overall team strategy mixed with individual instructions? Is the tactic that Fergie actually used available to download? I'm always looking for ways to make United play more like their real life counter parts!

[boomheadshot45]

What Mentality Systems should I use? I want one that makes me achieve the board objectives.

Well you can win with just about every formation, mentality, and framework, its just some will be easier than others.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Could someone explain the Fergies Rule of Two tactic to me? Is it because it's a mixture of an overall team strategy mixed with individual instructions? Is the tactic that Fergie actually used available to download? I'm always looking for ways to make United play more like their real life counter parts!

Simon, if you read the origuinal Post you will see that it sets out several frameworks & the settings to overlay upon them. Ro2 which is given the name "Ferguson's", as it reflects that syle of play, is one of those frameworks. I think there may be a download too but for me it is imporatnt to manually set the tactic up (only 30 mins work) as I can see how it works and where my own Team's strengths require additional tweaking for the starting set ups. I would try then not to tweak too much although the "Standard" tactic has many slider settings of midway (10 clicks from the left) so this may be more "customisable" without risking conflicts.

[louie]

I have created an XML Pack including every theorem covered in this thread. The pack consists of two xmls for each theorem: 4-4-2 Standard and 4-5-1 Standard. Please read the README.txt file before using this.

Download link: http://rapidshare.com/files/226453728/TTF_.xml.zip.html

Alternative: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P0RD96V6

EDIT: Feel free to use this, distribute it and include it in future releases if you feel it is beneficial.

does this work in 2007?

[leedsforever]

I doubt it. Try it and if it doesn't work, open the 'tactical_templates.xml' file you wish to use in notepad and transfer it across to the tactics folder systematically. By this I mean make sure the data you copy across matches the rules at the top of the original 'tactical_templates.xml'.

[Corkey]

wwfan, Cleon or any other person, just a quick question about mentality? In the mentality section it states that mentality should be close together rather than big gaps, for example GK- 8 DC-9 FB- 11 DMC- 9 MR/L- 12 AMC- 14 FCD- 11 FCA- 16. So when you create an attacking tactic, what is the mentality of the players or does it stay the same?

[PhroX]

wwfan, Cleon or any other person, just a quick question about mentality? In the mentality section it states that mentality should be close together rather than big gaps, for example GK- 8 DC-9 FB- 11 DMC- 9 MR/L- 12 AMC- 14 FCD- 11 FCA- 16. So when you create an attacking tactic, what is the mentality of the players or does it stay the same?

Everyone's mentality moves up by the same amount.

For example, if you were playing the Role Theory setup, and you had it as:

Attack: 13

Support: 10

Defence: 7

then you might set it to this for an attacking version:

Attack: 17

Support: 14

Defence: 11

So the structure remains the same, but everyone's going to be more attacking.

[Corkey]

Everyone's mentality moves up by the same amount.

For example, if you were playing the Role Theory setup, and you had it as:

Attack: 13

Support: 10

Defence: 7

then you might set it to this for an attacking version:

Attack: 17

Support: 14

Defence: 11

So the structure remains the same, but everyone's going to be more attacking.

ow right ok, thanks alot mate.

[JoeLatics]

Sorry, where do you find 'player role'?

[boomheadshot45]

Do you mean if you want use a role theory tactic? Its not in the game, its just back 4 will be defense, DM/MC(d) will be defense/support, MC(a) will be support, wingers or left and right mid will be support/attack, strikes will be attack, and AMs will be attack.

[TwoShedsJackson]

I've used the 5x5 system with Liverpool to good effect, but by January most teams have tightened up massively against me, packed defence, and results have dried up.

If using the attacking framework (quick tempo, wide, d-line a couple of notches above the middle), what's best to do to adapt to overly defensive tactics - should I slow it up, play wider/narrower etc?

[dindle]

How would you recommend scaling the mentality for a lone striker/attacking-midfielder-acting-as-advanced-forward formation?