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Europa League? where are you?

mark wilson27

By mark wilson27,
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mark wilson27

mark wilson27

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The new sign up has started, doing it like Gennaro's old sign up.. I have used your forum names for the sign up, if anyone didnt want to be involved let me know and I'll take your name out of it

Change of plan, I couldnt really get into the Gennaro style as I struggled to make it interesting (no comments plz :D), so I will be setting a team up using the forum names and some of the players that were sent in from my Italian one. I will setting it up in the Scottish Leagues

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Celtic_1967

Celtic_1967

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Hey guys, I have a quick question. Who originally started this great place?

Some people say that he doesn't have an arsehole so he has to use his mouth and that he HAS actually finished a story. All we know is that he's called Terk! :D

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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Hey guys, I have a quick question. Who originally started this great place?

God Himself.

Pending further word from headquarters.

Truth be told, Terk didn't start the forums. He joined them fairly early on, though, but there are writers more senior to him. It used to be that all the old stories and award listings were archived on a site called zelenazvesda.com, which is now no longer operational, but it had a complete archive back to the CMS days.

Hopefully we can get him to come back in for a history lesson. Writers like PM7 and Raptor would pre-date just about everything I know about the forums.

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Brian W

Brian W

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God Himself.

Pending further word from headquarters.

Truth be told, Terk didn't start the forums. He joined them fairly early on, though, but there are writers more senior to him. It used to be that all the old stories and award listings were archived on a site called zelenazvesda.com, which is now no longer operational, but it had a complete archive back to the CMS days.

Hopefully we can get him to come back in for a history lesson. Writers like PM7 and Raptor would pre-date just about everything I know about the forums.

I might be the longest serving member of this forum still around, so I'll attempt to dredge this up from my memory...

Many, many moons ago, the CM Stories forum wasn't really a story forum. It was in fact a complete mess. It was a forum which I think had been created to "tell people about your CM game". So people did. And it was pretty much filled with single post threads containing 2 lines about how Torquay beat Man U, or threads about record wins. It was little more than the

In amongst this mess, there were about 3 or 4 threads which could count as stories. I believe Raptor had his Kidderminster story, silver_blue had one which may have been Everton, and benny was writing a comedy masterpiece with Neunkirchen (seriously, the fact this disappeared in a board cleanup or crash makes your lives poorer). There were others...Avatar (long before he became an overhyped 3D movie) is another I remember. Bozz too. There was another crazy story in Italy but I can't for the life of me remember the name of the author. Oh, and I turned up too.

After a while, it somehow became slightly militant, with the regulars starting to talk about the lack of moderation on that long forgotten medium of ICQ, and somehow, I remember threads being created on GD like "Raptor for FM Stories Mod" and "silver_blue for FM Stories Mod". The initial reaction was bad but that seemed to get the attention of the powers that be, and within a month or two, Raptor and silver_blue were appointed mods, and tidied up the place into what it has become today.

Terk and PM7 I think both started writing in the year after that, but my mind's hazy. To give you an idea how long ago it is, somewhere along the line, I even had a year or 18 months as a mod. I remember giving up that job after my first term at uni. I'd've just turned 19 then, and turn 30 this year. That's scary.

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Balthazars

Balthazars

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I might be the longest serving member of this forum still around, so I'll attempt to dredge this up from my memory...

Many, many moons ago, the CM Stories forum wasn't really a story forum. It was in fact a complete mess. It was a forum which I think had been created to "tell people about your CM game". So people did. And it was pretty much filled with single post threads containing 2 lines about how Torquay beat Man U, or threads about record wins. It was little more than the

In amongst this mess, there were about 3 or 4 threads which could count as stories. I believe Raptor had his Kidderminster story, silver_blue had one which may have been Everton, and benny was writing a comedy masterpiece with Neunkirchen (seriously, the fact this disappeared in a board cleanup or crash makes your lives poorer). There were others...Avatar (long before he became an overhyped 3D movie) is another I remember. Bozz too. There was another crazy story in Italy but I can't for the life of me remember the name of the author. Oh, and I turned up too.

After a while, it somehow became slightly militant, with the regulars starting to talk about the lack of moderation on that long forgotten medium of ICQ, and somehow, I remember threads being created on GD like "Raptor for FM Stories Mod" and "silver_blue for FM Stories Mod". The initial reaction was bad but that seemed to get the attention of the powers that be, and within a month or two, Raptor and silver_blue were appointed mods, and tidied up the place into what it has become today.

Terk and PM7 I think both started writing in the year after that, but my mind's hazy. To give you an idea how long ago it is, somewhere along the line, I even had a year or 18 months as a mod. I remember giving up that job after my first term at uni. I'd've just turned 19 then, and turn 30 this year. That's scary.

Thanks for the history lesson gramps, it was great! :D

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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Thanks, Brian. :) Terkleton worked long and hard on an archive site for the old CMS stuff. I remember visiting zelena before it went down and it was a really fun place -- it even archived the old awards ceremonies IIRC.

I've been posting here since my signup date and even then there were legends - I came in right as Amaroq was making his grand exit, for example - and it's just too bad real life has intervened for so many of us. Some of the old stuff was really a joy to read.

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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Two other items:

Note to Sunderland's Stephane Sessignon - after you've scored a 70th minute equalizer, blowing your nose on your shirt might not be the best way to endear you to the support.

Second, MLS kicks off today. God help me, I'm planning to watch it.

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BenArsenal

BenArsenal

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I live in hope. We have a good run of games till the end (the only big one left is Man U), whilst Spurs still have to play Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City. They WILL drop points somewhere.

Then again, we never can tell with our team now...

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Jibby123

Jibby123

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Have to love Roy Keane in the post match analysis on ITV. :D Hate united, love Keane. Say it how it is. :)

The Alex will bang on about the ref, not mention any mistake his players made during game, same old Alex. Bless him.

Jose looked worn out throughout, big bags under eyes, grey and just 'had enough' before during and after both Legs. Like he can't wait for this season to end and get a one way ticket out of Spain.

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salkster2102

salkster2102

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Well Roy Keane made himself look an utter hypocrite :rolleyes:

Only saw the second half and Madrid looked the better team from what I saw and the stats show. Thought their keeper was fantastic. Nani's red card was harsh but the game is health and safety mad these days so i'm not totally surprised by it. We will soon have an no overhead height rule the way we are going.

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Balthazars

Balthazars

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Yeah, the red was absolutely harsh but also understandable. It was high and could be seen as a bit dangerous. He did also end up hitting the man and not the ball. Sensible decision would have been a booking and a telling off for basically being a bit of a dunce but the ref just seemed to go "High foot, RED CARRRRRRD!" The Madrid players didn't even appeal for a card!

Hard to say how it would have gone without it though. United had just scored and had clearly gone for the counter-attack strategy since the very beginning. With 11 v 11 they were doing pretty well in controlling the game, but Madrid obviously were always dangerous.

So a bit hard on United but I honestly can't find much sympathy for them! Not looking forward to Arsenal getting tonked in Germany though... :(

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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I liked United 11 on 11. I liked United's tactic of shadowing Alonso with Welbeck, and with Ronaldo shut down in the first half Real looked very beatable. I felt it was United's tie to lose until the sending off. Welbeck and Giggs were especially good.

I also thought the red card was, to use a charitable word, incorrect. And given that United's tactical scheme couldn't work with ten, once Ronaldo scored the outcome was inevitable.

The only applicable laws of the game governing the card would have been for serious foul play or violent conduct. Neither occurred, especially by a player who is attempting to play the ball, has his eyes on the ball, and would have played the ball had Arbeloa not intervened. Foul, yes. Dangerous play, yes, because there was a defender present. Sending off? Not so much.

And for Sir not to talk to the press ... amazing. I still do think that the eventual verbal blast, when it comes, will be very telling.

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Jibby123

Jibby123

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Referee's make mistakes. They're human beings.

Every player or manager or fan who whines should be sentenced to ref a game. Just one. I'd love to see the muppet ref a game, Ferguson that is. He sulked when the Beeb dared to suggest his son was ripping people off for years so it would be pure gold to see how perfect he thinks it should be done.

I will put my life that his players made as many mistakes as the ref(s) did over the two legs, over real time without replays to wonder how they 'could' have done it better.

I played a shedload of games over the years, I reffed just one unofficially as a favour completley unqualified. I will never again the latter. It was by far the hardest 90 minutes I ever spent on a pitch and all my time on a pitch is admittedly sunday pub league standard. Everyone thinks they're the world's perfect referee, bias added for flavour. Most fans ref games from the sofa in HD replays from multiple angles and then they're experts.

No millionaire players ever decide to show how it should be by reffing a game when they're done playing. Go figure. Wonder why? :(

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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I'm not saying it was deliberate. I am saying it was a poor decision that, in retrospect, probably changed the course of the tie. That's unfortunate, especially if you are a United supporter.

Interesting point you raise about players, but honestly, do you think, just to pull names out of a hat, Spurs fans would like seeing a retired Jack Wilshere officiating a London derby? And from an organizational standpoint, Ferguson not addressing the media after the game was a very good thing and a very good idea.

Here in the States you don't see high profile players turning to officiating, either, as a rule. The reasons for that are fairly plain. You'd never get over accusations of bias, real or imagined.

And so it is that, perhaps in a bit of irony, United fans can turn to Bill Shankly who once said, "Referees understand the rules, but they do not understand the game."

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Celtic_1967

Celtic_1967

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Wanna talk about poor refereeing? I'd suggest watching the 1st leg of the Celtic - Juve tie from two weeks ago. We were mainly undone by our own poor defending but the ref was a joke.

I saw a picture, can't think where now, where as a corner was about to be put into the Juve penalty area there were 5 seperate fouls being commited on Celtic players at the same time. Add to that the ref's unwillingness to issue a 2nd caution to any player who was on one and the game was a joke. I'll never know how we didn't get a single penalty all night.

We didn't deserve a win and I'm not sure that even if the ref had called it properly we would have but it's not unreasonable to ask for a ref who knows what he's doing (even allowing for the fact that occassionaly a human will make a mistake).

I only saw the last few minutes of the Man U - Real match last night but I'm sure there was a stonewall penalty in there for Man U last night. I think it was Evra that was tripped. IIRC the ref wasn't a huge distance away either when that happened!

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Manxie_Ash

Manxie_Ash

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As a United fan I honestly think that the red card was the only decision the referee got right. Nani should know better than to put his foot that high regardless of whether it was intent or not, it was still dangerous. That said, we deserved two penalties in that game, Evra was tripped and Welbeck was blatantly impeded by... Ramos... I think.

Their 'keeper saved them, we had several clear cut chances that we either wasted or Lopez saved extremely well. I am proud of the fight we put up after going down to ten men, okay... apart from conceding twice, since no-one gave us a chance when the draw was announced. I also must say that my respect for CR7 went up a bit, he honestly looked gutted both times he scored, and didn't look happy at all when the final whistle went.

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BenArsenal

BenArsenal

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Having now seen replays of that incident I can actually see both sides of the coin. It is a red card technically, but a rather soft one.

Frankly it's one of those where either decision wouldn't really be wrong, if you get what I mean.

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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Had Nani been actually challenging Arbeloa, I might agree with that. But he wasn't. He was being challenged by a defender approaching from outside his field of vision while he was attempting to play the ball. The contact was really initiated by the defender through him closing down Nani, so sending the attacker off beggars belief.

If the standard being used is raising your leg against a defender to play the ball, the next time a player tries an overhead kick in traffic I'll expect to see him sent off. Of course, that won't happen -- which is why Nani's situation didn't warrant a red card.

United can't blame their exit on the referee -- they did concede twice -- but the real shame of this for me is that we'll never know if United could have won 11x11 with a tactic that was really working well right up until the referee's error.

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Balthazars

Balthazars

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And for Sir not to talk to the press ... amazing. I still do think that the eventual verbal blast, when it comes, will be very telling.

But Fergie always throws his toys out of the pram and not talk to the media when he's unhappy about refereeing. He used to do it all the time in the Premier League. You knew he was mad when he sent his assistant to do the interview instead of going himself. Standard Fergie sulking move, nothing special about it at all in my opinion.

As for your point regarding the standard being merely raising your leg, I don't think it comes to that. The interpretation of the rules of the game actually gives referee discretion on that point - they are permissible (overhead kicks) unless the referee believes it endangers an opponent.

In this situation, neither player was in possession, it was a loose ball, Nani went in with his foot high. Arbeloa went for the ball too - later than Nani, but he was also closer to it (hence he didn't have to raise/stretch out his leg to try and win it). Nani misses the ball. Arbeloa impales himself on Nani's leg (it's partly his own fault as well). It's a bit dangerous though, that's not in dispute.

The issue is whether it's 'serious foul play' (i.e. endangers safety of opponent) or 'careless/reckless use of excessive force' (i.e. complete disregard for opponent's safety). The former is red-cardable. The latter is a booking. Note the latter requires an interpretation of the player's intention by the referee. The former requires the referee's subjective judgement of the situation. They're very different tests (which is a bit problem in my opinion, makes application/interprepation of two related laws very different, bad legal drafting, but I digress).

I agree that most people, when looking at this incident would say the latter, not the former applies. For whatever reason, the referee looked at it in the moment and though the former (most likely, I'm guessing his thoughts based on his actions, obviously). If the referee thought it was conduct that endangered safety, he's within his rights to send him off. I think a poor decision, but not necessarily a wrong decision.

He decided too quickly. It would have been better to stop play, speak to Nani and actually ask him some questions, did you know there was someone nearby? Why raise your foot like that while jumping? etc.) and then decide if he still thinks it's just carelessness (booking) or conduct endagering safety (send him off). If he had done that, he probably would have just booked him, so rushing here did him a big disservice, but I don't think his decision is wrong - because the rules allows him to make a subjective judgment as the referee, which is what it seems he has done.

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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But it's required in the Champions League which is why its extraordinary. I think it was a choice of Sir choosing not to say something that would really have landed him in hot water, which makes it a good move. I look at this from a media standpoint and a reporter of almost thirty years' experience. I waited 45 minutes after the match on BBC text commentary to see what he'd say. And then he didn't. He now controls the media narrative until Friday, when he's scheduled to speak before Sunday's FA Cup match with Chelsea.

With respect, I think you're overanalyzing the card. Two players going for the ball at full speed, one with his leg in the air to take a ball over the shoulder as a referee who has studied the teams should know Nani is wont to do. The players collide. If you think there's careless behavior, yellow the guilty player and get on with the game. Arbeloa certainly wasn't injured, in fact after Nani was sent off he looked like he had just gotten back from Lourdes.

He (the referee) has just got to use common sense. Unless it's a DeJong karate kick, which this certainly was not, keep 22 players on the pitch and let the players get on with it.

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Balthazars

Balthazars

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I'm pretty sure giving post-match press conferences are compulsory in the Premier League too? My understanding is that it is for TV purposes, hence why there is always someone giving a post-match press conference from both teams for Premier League games, so that Sky has their managerial soundbites at the end of every game. Fergie isn't the only manager to send a 'lackey' to the interviews in the Premier League (for example, some of the foreign managers who didn't speak good English often sent a memeber of the coaching staff who spoke better English in their stead), but it was particularly telling in the past that he stopped going when he was mad at perceived injustice in the administration of the game. If the match was incident free, hey presto, he did the post-match interview. I think it's his standard way of telling the relevant authority "you screwed my team over due to bad decisions/refereeing, so I screw you over by not fronting the media like you want me to"

Regarding the card, to be fair, I don't believe I'm overanalysing it. You claimed the decision was 'wrong' (i.e. he had no right to send him off), my analysis is an attempt to show that while the decision was almost surely 'bad', arguably it was not 'wrong' under the letter of the law (i.e. he had the right to send him off as long as he thought it was dangerous behaviour, even if no one else watching thought so, because the law puts that discretion purely at the referee's subjective opinion).

In the end it doesn't really matter in the sense we both agree the decision became an unnecessary and undesirable turning point in the match, but I admit I'm a bit prickled by people saying his decision was wrong, because I don't believe it was. Bad yes, but not wrong in my opinion.

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Jibby123

Jibby123

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I'm not saying it was deliberate. I am saying it was a poor decision that, in retrospect, probably changed the course of the tie. That's unfortunate, especially if you are a United supporter.

Interesting point you raise about players, but honestly, do you think, just to pull names out of a hat, Spurs fans would like seeing a retired Jack Wilshere officiating a London derby? And from an organizational standpoint, Ferguson not addressing the media after the game was a very good thing and a very good idea.

Here in the States you don't see high profile players turning to officiating, either, as a rule. The reasons for that are fairly plain. You'd never get over accusations of bias, real or imagined.

And so it is that, perhaps in a bit of irony, United fans can turn to Bill Shankly who once said, "Referees understand the rules, but they do not understand the game."

No, fair points you make. It's a pipedream I wonder of rather than anything realistic. Gary Neville ref'ing a Utd/Liverpool game would have them rocking in the aisles. Both sides; one side going mad laughing the other going mad defintely not laughing. :D

But to turn it around, the high profiles don't need the hassle or money. Maybe there's the problem, the players/managers are god's on god like wages (in baseball, basketball and that weird version of football you play as well :) ) so wouldn't touch with a bargepole the officiating side of the game. Who would in their shoes. :(

I love the opinions of football, it's what makes it what it is. Adds to the high drama of bad/good decisions under extreme pressure in real time when instant decisions need making. Player or ref.

I understand why as in human nature it's frustration to blame 'everyone but' when it comes to losing out, but would love to hear a ref come out in post-match interview (they're not allowed under current Premier League rules) and say.....

"Yeah, I'm human. I might have made a mistake. Now let's talk about every mistake Ferguson and any one of his players made. Let's ask them to man up and confess and I hold their hand in doing so, because we all make mistakes. We're human beings".

When there's potentially millions of $ or £ or Euro's at stake maybe that's another pipedream of mine, but in the cold light of day on the Nani red; I would hand on heart say Nani had a point and the ref had a point. It's 50/50. High drama. I love football for that.

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