Europa League? where are you?

[salkster2102]

Got to love Chelsea beating City tonight. As a typical Englishman backing the underdog, it's refreshing to see the so called best team on the planet beat. Making the likes of world class talent of Silva, Dzeko, Touré Navas etc look average has to keep up the hopes of the hard working young talent. I still expect City to win the league but it's good to see teams standing up to them, it's what separates this league from the rest.

I'm quite interested as to who people think is the best manager in the world is. I'm a big Mourinho fan myself and it's easy to nominate him after tonight, but very few managers, if any have a good record against him. Every team he's been with have won something despite no playing career. Guardiola may be one of the few managers to win the treble but has yet to win my respect. Walked into the nest team in the world with Barcelona, and walked into a Munich team about to take over. Success wise Guardiola comes close to Mourinho but I think I know who deserves it more.

[Balthazars]

Hello. Football's ****.

Hello sir, but why? Liverpool's not doing *that* badly this season!

Got to love Chelsea beating City tonight. As a typical Englishman backing the underdog, it's refreshing to see the so called best team on the planet beat.

While Chelsea beating City was preferable to City beating Chelsea (particularly from an Arsenal fan's point of view), I find it extremely hard to accept the whole 'Chelsea is the underdog' thing, despite what Mourinho was trying to achieve in the press in the lead-up to this match. Chelsea are hardly underdogs. Sure financially they're not in the same league as City, but to hear him go on about how poor old Chelsea, trying to comply with FFP now couldn't match City...please, give me a break.

I saw it as the two rich boys of the league duking it out, with Mourinho and Chelsea coming out on top, in reasonably convincing fashion. A good game though, it must be said.

I think it's impossible to rate 'best of all time' kind of thing, particularly when you're trying to select just one person, simply because different eras, different leagues and competitions have a significant impact on the achievements of various managers. Mourinho is undoubtably one of the best of all time. He has a winning menality, and as the lead-up to this game showed, he knows how to play the press in order to gain a mind-game advantage like few others. However, his achievements at Porto are his best for me, as since then he's been pretty spoilt in terms of going to teams with essentially unlimited resources, and he did benefit from the groundwork Ranreri put in place at Chelsea.

Honestly, I'd choose Fergie over Mourinho in the modern era, as the amount of time he spent dominating a league with a single team. Fergie has shown the ability to adapt and rebuild teams time and again as things changed, wihch I respect immensely, whereas Mourinho has tended to come to either a talented but flawed team or one 'on the up', polish it with his drive and shrewd purchases, and then going off to do something else the moment he'd either achieved his aims or things started to decline from the peak. Also, Fergie's achievements at Aberdeen, in the context of that league, are simply amazing.

[copperhorse21]

I remember having a discussion with my wife after both of us mourned the loss of Sir Alex, who is hands down the finest manager in the modern era when financial spending is also accounted for. Once Mourinho's move to Chelsea was official, she asked me if I was going to defect to Chelsea as she knows that I follow managers more than teams and had been following Mourinho openly since he went to Inter and then to Real Madrid. I said it would be difficult not to support Mourinho because he's so good at what he does and mentioned that Man Utd needed a manager who could still live within the confines of the financial constraints resulting from all the debt Grazers have saddled United with. While I'm deeply troubled by Moyes and his backroom staff at United so far, I'm delighted that Mourinho's been able to shape the squad into his image so quickly because as far as this house is concerned, anybody but City can win the league. Will anyone else be able to stop City? I have no idea. But, it's worth it to watch defensively organized teams do such a fine job at shutting down the powerful attacking force City have become under Pellegrini and away from the drama that Mancini offered the club. Truth to tell, I still wish Mancini was at City. That drama was entertaining! How the man managed to be more dramatic that Super Mario and Carlos Tevez, I have no idea. But it was a good thing for every other club in the league.

[chesterfan2]

Best of all time ? Fergie, probably, though Bob Paisley remains my preferred candidate for that title. I like the idea of managers taking either a bunch of dross or a failing team and turning them into world beaters. Only Fergie has done that of all the greats I can think of, so he wins.

Having pots of cash is always going to help. Obviously you are going to have to spend that money and in that I recognise that Mourinho has done better than most, but try giving yourself a few hundred millions of quid in the FM editor and then see if you can win the league, I bet you can.

[BenArsenal]

Hello. Football's ****.

Now now. It could have been worse.

You could support Man U.

*ta dum psh*

[tenthreeleader]

As a typical Englishman backing the underdog

In fairness, Chelsea v City is like Google v Microsoft. There isn't really an underdog to pick.

Mourinho is the best in the world. I think the truest test of a manager is to see how he gets the best out of his players. For example, put him with United (which, of course, they should have done instead of hiring Dithering Dave). Would they be seventh? Of course not. Chelsea is also supposed to be a team in transition, but now they're second on goal difference.

[Jibby123]

.....Having pots of cash is always going to help. Obviously you are going to have to spend that money and in that I recognise that Mourinho has done better than most, but try giving yourself a few hundred millions of quid in the FM editor and then see if you can win the league, I bet you can.

So true, and Mourinho (and Pellegrini, and Ferguson) were going in to boxing fights as HW fighters to fight a Middleweight. Or a handicap race with most of the field racing coming with 11lb handicaps.

Also, because Sky Sports invented football (no, really they did!! History has been wiped if from pre-90s if you listen to them), and they will tell you at every opportunity that Ferguson and Mourinho manage(d) in the "bestest, tougher-est, shiney-ist" competition in world football the two contenders for 'best ever' managers have to have been successful post-Sky and of course to have done it in England as well. Bought to you by the Sky generation of TV of course and watched by the Sky generation of new age fan.

Managers seem to me to get far too much credit (and far too much blame for that matter) on team's fortunes. Like you say Chesterfan, give somebody £200m to spend with the world's best footballers and see how they do.

That's not to say they're aren't good, bad, indifferent, woeful and great managers like in any job but in % terms you have to wonder how much difference they make and whether in bad runs (loving it at Old Trafford right now) the United collective should be slaughtering their players as much as they are Moyes. They forget during pre-Sky, before football was invented some Scotsman turned up and had his head called for 2-3 seasons as well and he turned out okay.

Mourinho said it himself post-match last night. "It's the players, they are the only thing, we just try to give them a helping hand" or words to that effect. Beefing up your players aside by his comments he might actually be on to something there.

Best manager in England right now?? Gary Johnson. Not on Sky enough I say. Not that I am bitter at Sky. Much.

[tenthreeleader]

Watch Moyes' United and see how utterly predictable they are. That's tactics and it comes from the manager. When the best Moyes can do after a woeful loss at Stoke is to say they played well because they 'got the ball to the byline eight or nine times', I think that's just dreadful.

Wide. Byline. Cutback. Cross. Loss of possession. With United's talent up front, that kind of predictability borders on criminal. And we see it EVERY week. Had that been SAF's entire match plan, the comparison might be a bit more apropos but it's the same United every week, and it's pretty dire.

Do players have something to do with that? Of course, and they deserve criticism like anyone else. But managers exist to put players in positions where they can succeed and I just don't see that happening with Moyes. Look at what Martinez has done with mostly a Moyes team at Everton this season.

Does he deserve the chance to buy and rebuild this team? Considering he just spent 37 million to buy a number ten when he's already got Wayne Rooney to play that same spot, I guess I'm not sure.

[Jibby123]

I think you're being harsh, or was your mind already made up even before he managed his first match that he wasn't the man for the job? Let's wait and see on how Martinez and Moyes do. Moyes is working with what he has and what he has to work with is not good enough?

Maybe Ferguson said over the years he would step down when only when medically he couldn't carry on. It won't be the first time he's told lies, spun truth because did he step down because he realised this squad was an ageing of his best players and poor quality of his younger one's (compared to past United squads) and he massively overachieved last season by winning the league? I think so, it's his greatest ever achievement imvho. If ever a manager made a difference then maybe Ferguson, United and 2012/13 was it? But all of them are a year older now (Vidic, Ferdinand, RVP etc), not all a year better in the case of the younger one's.

Van Persie was the difference because for once he stayed injury free. He's no longer injury free and reverted to type this season. He's aging as well. Does he even want to be there?

"I had to gasp for breath and I shook my head. Had he really said what I thought he'd said?" on Ferguson's announced retiring (and U-turn on promises made to Van Persie?).

Does Rooney even want to be there? Not according to Ferguson before he left. If the only two outfield players you have that the others in the top 3 would snap your hand off for aren't playing or when they do not really wanting to be there then maybe you can never challenge for the title whatever your press conferences or tactics.

Mata is arguably a better player than Rooney. He's younger and he sounds like he's very keen to be there so whatever the disaster of the past two transfer windows (for which Moyes maybe had limited control over?) it could have been worse?

I think Moyes was passed a hospital pass and Ferguson knew it. And Moyes. Maybe that's why he has such a long contract.

That's football though. All opinions, makes it what it is, and my opinion is as a fan of football so as a disclaimer probably have no idea. But then some in football paid a lot of money don't seem to always have either!

As said, I am loving it whatever happens. I'm not even a neutral but ABU-camp to the core for decades!

[HorusFM]

He just isn't getting the best out of them so far. Managers bring the best out in players and he hasn't done so as of yet.

[tenthreeleader]

Jibby, I'm on record on this very thread as saying Mourinho should have been offered the job on the day Moyes was hired, for reasons I documented at that time (lack of experience managing in Europe and at elite club level, by which I mean Big Four/Five, and a complete lack of trophy success at Everton). I never liked the idea of David Moyes managing Manchester United because of how his teams performed before that time, so full disclosure there. Perhaps he will prove me wrong someday.

As for SAF, I don't think this same group of United players is in seventh place if either he or Mourinho is the manager. Just my opinion, but both of those men appear to be better man managers. That counts for a lot. Just look at Hernandez for one example -- the kid went through walls for Alex Ferguson and now, he's fallen off the edge of the earth.

I also don't see where he's really done anything to show the world he was the right man for the job in the seven months he's had it, TBH. And it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the man to say that his two transfer windows "could have been worse", right?

I agree with you in that I think Mata is probably better in the number ten role than Rooney over the long run, though. Yet if that is the case, the contract numbers floating around in the press for a new Rooney deal really do defy description. I just think Moyes doesn't want to go down in history as the manager who sold Wayne Rooney twice.

[HorusFM]

Also slightly off-topic, but absolutely thrilled the Director of F***all Joe Kinnear has taken his business elsewhere. Quite how anyone viewed him as manager material let alone Director of Football material is beyond me. He was in that role for a year and signed not a single player. What a shrewd move, Ashley.

[tenthreeleader]

Director of F***all Joe Kinnear

Okay, I don't care who you are, THAT'S funny.

[HorusFM]

I saw it somewhere so can't claim ownership, but have adopted it ever since!

[Terk]

Hello sir, but why? Liverpool's not doing *that* badly this season!

More in reference to Hearts losing the League Cup semi final. Conceding a 94th minute equaliser to a team with nine men and then going on to get knocked out on penalties.

[Offspring8]

I'm pretty confident that Chelsea won't be winning the league this year. A title challenge has been our aim from day 1 and so far we're on track for that, which makes a nice change from the last few seasons. I'd agree with what Mourinho has been saying in that we were and still are the underdogs to Man City, despite beating them, and that's because we are a team that's still developing. If I'm working on the premise that a world-class player is one of the top 30/40 in the world, I'd say that Chelsea currently have 2 world class players (both of them goalkeepers) with 3-5 close to being in that bracket. I'd expect at least a couple from that second group to be in the first group next season, which is when we'll hopefully turn into a real force once again.

I don't know who I'd consider the best manager ever but I am surprised at the fact that some United fans still have a bad taste about the fact that they landed Moyes instead of Mourinho. A lot seem to have this opinion that they missed out through pure bad luck, but in my opinion Mourinho's first choice was Chelsea and his second choice was United. His first choice came up and he took it, pretty straight forward.

Bring me the list!

- He was already a big figure at the club

- He's on good terms with the board/staff/players

- He's a god among the fans

- He'd take control of a team that's about to hit its peak and that was waiting to be 'rescued' following its darkest term with regards to managers (Di Matteo's sacking + the hiring of Benitez)

- Taking over from Ferguson was always going to be an impossible task

- Following his travels, he's looking to build a dynasty - why not do it at a club that he loves/loves him

- His family loves the area and wanted to return

- Money and so on and so forth, this list is boring now.

So if Mourinho wasn't ever really available and the United fans aren't happy with Moyes, may I ask who they'd rather have in charge? I may be overlooking somebody, but I don't see many options on the market with regards to top class managers.

[Jibby123]

Jibby, I'm on record on this very thread as saying Mourinho should have been offered the job on the day Moyes was hired, for reasons I documented at that time (lack of experience managing in Europe and at elite club level, by which I mean Big Four/Five, and a complete lack of trophy success at Everton). I never liked the idea of David Moyes managing Manchester United because of how his teams performed before that time, so full disclosure there. Perhaps he will prove me wrong someday.

As for SAF, I don't think this same group of United players is in seventh place if either he or Mourinho is the manager. Just my opinion, but both of those men appear to be better man managers. That counts for a lot. Just look at Hernandez for one example -- the kid went through walls for Alex Ferguson and now, he's fallen off the edge of the earth.

I also don't see where he's really done anything to show the world he was the right man for the job in the seven months he's had it, TBH. And it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the man to say that his two transfer windows "could have been worse", right?

I agree with you in that I think Mata is probably better in the number ten role than Rooney over the long run, though. Yet if that is the case, the contract numbers floating around in the press for a new Rooney deal really do defy description. I just think Moyes doesn't want to go down in history as the manager who sold Wayne Rooney twice.

I'm pretty confident that Chelsea won't be winning the league this year. A title challenge has been our aim from day 1 and so far we're on track for that, which makes a nice change from the last few seasons. I'd agree with what Mourinho has been saying in that we were and still are the underdogs to Man City, despite beating them, and that's because we are a team that's still developing. If I'm working on the premise that a world-class player is one of the top 30/40 in the world, I'd say that Chelsea currently have 2 world class players (both of them goalkeepers) with 3-5 close to being in that bracket. I'd expect at least a couple from that second group to be in the first group next season, which is when we'll hopefully turn into a real force once again.

I don't know who I'd consider the best manager ever but I am surprised at the fact that some United fans still have a bad taste about the fact that they landed Moyes instead of Mourinho. A lot seem to have this opinion that they missed out through pure bad luck, but in my opinion Mourinho's first choice was Chelsea and his second choice was United. His first choice came up and he took it, pretty straight forward.

Bring me the list!

- He was already a big figure at the club

- He's on good terms with the board/staff/players

- He's a god among the fans

- He'd take control of a team that's about to hit its peak and that was waiting to be 'rescued' following its darkest term with regards to managers (Di Matteo's sacking + the hiring of Benitez)

- Taking over from Ferguson was always going to be an impossible task

- Following his travels, he's looking to build a dynasty - why not do it at a club that he loves/loves him

- His family loves the area and wanted to return

- Money and so on and so forth, this list is boring now.

So if Mourinho wasn't ever really available and the United fans aren't happy with Moyes, may I ask who they'd rather have in charge? I may be overlooking somebody, but I don't see many options on the market with regards to top class managers.

Fair and good points both.

10-3: We wait with baited breath.

Offspring: I always wondered that (who they'd rather have seen). I'd read a lot of stuff from United fans claiming 'no way jose' [too defensive, boring etc] albeit when said at the time probably not expecting Ferguson to be gone quite so soon.

[tenthreeleader]

Offy, everything I've read was that Mourinho was angling to replace Ferguson. Of course, the company line in any organization the size of either club will always be "we got our first choice", but I read before Moyes was hired that Ferguson himself called Mourinho to tell him he wouldn't get the United job.

Of course, that's the English press. Who knows what REALLY happened.

[copperhorse21]

Agreed 10-3. I read similar articles. The reason I felt that Mourinho may not have wanted to take the reins at United is because he couldn't spend the kind of money required to reshape the squad in his own image as fast as he wanted. The debt is too high. I do recognize that Chelsea is a place he loves too. I'm glad he can go "home", but I don't know if he'll last the length of time he'll need to accomplish the other goal he's created for himself in wanting to attempt the feat that SAF accomplished at Old Trafford: longevity. Roman A. is just too impatient.

If you are asking me which top managers would I like at United? Ideally, I would like Pep Guardiola at United to bring that technical, pressing mentality to the English game. However, I know that he'd already committed to things at Bayern well before things were revealed about SAF departing. 2nd choice? Since I read that Sir Alex delegated a lot of the duties to his assistants, it would have been refreshing to me to see if Phelan/Meulensteen could have done something after rising up through the ranks and working with so many of the players in existence, similar to what Barca did when hiring Pep and followed with Tito (before the cancer). 3rd choice: if a manager was required who could work with limited transfer budgets and develop young talent in ways similar to SAF, then I'd go with Moyes.

[Balthazars]

Also slightly off-topic, but absolutely thrilled the Director of F***all Joe Kinnear has taken his business elsewhere. Quite how anyone viewed him as manager material let alone Director of Football material is beyond me. He was in that role for a year and signed not a single player. What a shrewd move, Ashley.

When I saw that news break, one of my first thoughts was "wow, that was quick" followed quickly by "I bet gav is a very happy camper right now!"

[Balthazars]

More in reference to Hearts losing the League Cup semi final. Conceding a 94th minute equaliser to a team with nine men and then going on to get knocked out on penalties.

Ahh, I see. That explains it. Condolences, a loss like that must have hurt a lot!

[Terk]

St Mirren have signed Eric Djemba-Djemba. Screams of an FM panic buy when the January window has closed and you didn't get what you need and end up scouring the list of free transfers for a name you recognise.

[tenthreeleader]

Eric Djemba-Djemba might have been the worst transfer signing Alex Ferguson ever made. Except for Bebe.

[Balthazars]

Eric Djemba-Djemba might have been the worst transfer signing Alex Ferguson ever made. Except for Bebe.

I thought Bebe cost more than Djemba-Djemba, and at least he actually played some games for the club!

[salkster2102]

Having pots of cash is always going to help. Obviously you are going to have to spend that money and in that I recognise that Mourinho has done better than most, but try giving yourself a few hundred millions of quid in the FM editor and then see if you can win the league, I bet you can.

To be fair it's not as if Man Utd never spent big money themselves. I read an article off the Guardian last year that highlights this:

But, for all his fledglings, Ferguson is as fond of spending money as the next manager. He has broken the British transfer record three times and could put out a team against Liverpool on Sunday that cost more than £205m. David de Gea (£18.3m) would play in goal ahead of a defence of Phil Jones (£17m), Rio Ferdinand (£30m), Chris Smalling (£7m) and Antonio Valencia (£16m), with Nani (£17m), Anderson (£17m), Michael Carrick (£18.6m) and Ashley Young (£15m) supporting an attack of Wayne Rooney (£27m) and Robin van Persie (£23m).

Ferguson has played the miser and the millionaire and, for all his love of "finding value in the market", he has blown some serious money in his time. You could build a sad looking squad from his duds: Massimo Taibi, David Bellion, William Prunier, Liam Miller, Eric Djemba-Djemba, Manucho, Kleberson and Bébé.

Admittedly he made some bargain buys but you are going to get some eventually if you carry on signing players. The same article made a starting XI of bargain buys: Schmeichel, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Ince, Cantona, Keane, Solskjaer, Hughes, Kanchelskis. Then obviously whoever they have brought up in the academy. They may not have consistently spent masses of cash like City and Chelsea, but people do forget that Utd have spent their fair amount of money too.

I labelled Chelsea as the underdog as I don't think many people expected them to win. I don't think I heard anyone predicting a Chelsea win. It might not have been on the scale of David vs Goliath, but considering City's home form and the amount of goals they had scored they were clear favorites.

[tenthreeleader]

I had forgotten about Taibi and Kleberson. But then, so had everyone else.

But in fairness, the bargain buys XI would be an exceptionally difficult team to defeat.

[-Xenon-]

I'd throw my two shiny pennies in and say Juan Sebastian Verón was Ferguson's worst signing.

I mean, what an utterly brilliant player............for Parma and Lazio.

But, £28mn (in 2001) for a player that was totally at odds with our style of play at the time, and got nothing like the space and time he needed to control games.

Djemba-Djemba cost £3.5mn, United blow their nose on more than that.

[Terk]

Paying £28M for Veron wasn't as bad as Chelsea paying £15M for him after two years of being terrible at Man United.

[salkster2102]

Paying £28M for Veron wasn't as bad as Chelsea paying £15M for him after two years of being terrible at Man United.

Worse than paying £50M for Torres?

[tenthreeleader]

Worse than paying £50M for Torres?

Well, let's do the math.

Torres - 50m, 19 goals - 2,631,578/goal

Andrey Shevchenko - 30.8m, 9 goals - 3,422,222/goal

There might be one worse.

[Balthazars]

Paying £28M for Veron wasn't as bad as Chelsea paying £15M for him after two years of being terrible at Man United.

I agree, this was by far the more bonkers Veron-in-England transfer to my mind. He had been so bad at United and clearly not suited to football in England, yet Chelsea went ahead and bought him anyway. Perhaps it was supposed to be a bit of a statement of intent ('we're big enough now that we can sign players off United!') but was not helpful to Chelsea's cause at the time at all.

Chelsea generally have a bit of a dodgy record in signing so-called established strikers, paying huge money only to see them flop. Torres, Shevchenko as 10-3 mentioned, and Crespo didn't do very well at Chelsea either. Really, Drogba has been their only really good striker purchase during Abramovic's reign in my opinion.

[Offspring8]

Personally I think we do alright with strikers. Mateja Kezman was... incredible, Adrain Mutu was a lovely bloke, Jiri Jarosik was much more than just a big name and Claudio Pizarro gave us his best years, as did Franco Di Santo. Overall, I'd say we're more hit than miss when it comes to strikers.

[copperhorse21]

Vidic confirmed he won't stay at United come season's end. I'm truly sad. Why?

[salkster2102]

Vidic confirmed he won't stay at United come season's end. I'm truly sad. Why?

The first sign of Fergie's boys going? Could be the first of a few going this summer if what Anderson has said is true.

[-Xenon-]

Vidic confirmed he won't stay at United come season's end. I'm truly sad. Why?

Because he is awesome!

But seriously, I'm pleased for him. He's young enough to get one last big contract somewhere. Personally I feel he was never quite the same after the injury lay-off he had. But without doubt among our best players of the last 10 years.

[tenthreeleader]

It does say something, perhaps not loudly but in a more subdued tone, when your captain says "I'm not coming back".

[Manxie_Ash]

To be fair, Roy Keane signed his own death warrant... but some argue we still haven't managed to replace him so what do I know.

[BenArsenal]

I'm sad. I'll be in my hole.

[salkster2102]

To be fair, Roy Keane signed his own death warrant... but some argue we still haven't managed to replace him so what do I know.

Scholes is the one United haven't replaced. Probably the biggest reason United are struggling for me.

Fantastic win for Liverpool which gives us an outside chance for the title. Top 4 more realistic but with a performance like that why not? As poor as Arsenal were, that first 30 minutes from Liverpool was breathtaking. A pity about the penalty though, 5-0 would have been a much fairer reflection on the match. Is this where Arsenal's customary 2 week capitulation begins?

[tenthreeleader]

I think Mertesacker could take up a career as a professional jogger. I don't think I've ever seen a player put forward less effort to get back into the play after being skinned. Which happened far too often.

Liverpool looked lethal (even if Skrtel was modestly offside on the first goal), and Arsenal was as bad as I've ever seen them.

[Terk]

Football's ace.

[salkster2102]

Van Persie goal winning me 30 quid and Bent equalizing in fergie time aftr United World Cup winning celebration. Must. Stop. Grinning.

[tenthreeleader]

From Mark Payne's espnfc article this afternoon:

"United's tactics remained staunchly loyal to playing the ball out wide, often through Young, and delivering balls into the box. They attempted 39 crosses from open play in the first half, with just six finding teammates. By the 77th minute, they had sent in more crosses in a single match than any other team in the top five leagues in Europe this season."

The prosecution rests.

[mark wilson27]

Manchester United put in 81 crosses in the game, the most by a team in a Premier League match since 2006, but only 18 of them found a team-mate from the BBC.....

75% possesion, 31 v 6 shots, 9 on target v 3

With those sort of stats you'd expect a rout in truth...we have lost that killer instinct and at this rate we will be lucky to get into Europe let alone a top four spot which Rooney has said is the target...

[tenthreeleader]

I just think it's amazing, Mark. The meme about the definition of insanity absolutely applies to this team. Mata playing wide in a 4-4-2 is an utter waste of his talent. I saw NO imagination from that team for well over an hour of this game, against the rock-bottom team in the Premiership, and at home no less.

I just don't see how there's any excuse for not getting three points.

[mark wilson27]

In truth there hasnt been any sort of imagination from the team all season. It seems as though the players just dont seem to want to play for Moyes... We should have walked over Fulham and any other side probably would have done with those stats.

Moyes saying after the game "I don't know if we could have done an awful lot more".. well yes they could have done alot more, like take the chances you had. 31 chances and only two went in. I could of scored more than two goals with that amount of chances and thats saying alot..

If we dont get into Europe next season then Moyes will have to go, we cant afford not to be in European competition

[copperhorse21]

Apropos to nothing: Because I've still got to watch the match with my wife who's been in mourning ever since she found out that Rio most likely will be leaving, Evra probably won't stay, Vidic is officially leaving, now with rumors that RVP wants to go back to Arsenal according to a headline she read on The Daily Mail, and the manager she wanted to take over Man U (Meulensteen) found a way to beat Moyes who's inexcusable tactics confound her, she's certain that Rooney won't sign the newest contract offered to him, and so I am taking the time to announce that I officially am STILL disgusted with Moyes' tactics and am now wondering if there is enough evidence for someone to grow a pair and issue an ultimatum.

Also, I'm officially announcing that I've decided to post the final 16 installments in my story about Mark Wilson: Beyond the Bottle. That story is officially finished! Should people wish to read a completed story to take some of the sting out of supporting Moyes' stupendously foolish, stupid tactics.

Rant over (for today)...

[mark wilson27]

Copper, the story is now archived and an excellent finish. Hopefully there will be more

[copperhorse21]

Thanks for archiving it, Mark. I hope that it will stay secure as I've read others seem to be missing their stuff. As far as more stuff...I have 3 other stories in various stages that I wish to finish first. Then, maybe I'll go back and write another chapter with your fictional namesake.

Now, back to Moyes. I'm probably going to embarrass myself with all the knowledgeable people on the forum board, but I was thinking different tactics with regards to United. As it looked to me, Meulensteen was fully prepared to hunker down after getting the miraculous early goal. Fine, park the bus. What confused me was the insistence on playing wide and trying to beat 3+ defenders to reach the targeted players on the cross. To me, I think the angle of attack needed to be changed if Fulham were committing so many men so deep. Playing in through the middle may have been more realistic, but the issue was that Fletcher and Carrick are near carbon copies and neither of them can play in tight spaces particularly well. I wish they would have countered Fulham's deep line inside the box is to add additional players in front of goal who are comfortable playing in the space given. Instead of both Carrick AND Fletcher, United should have played Fletcher OR Carrick. Then, put Kagawa, Januzaj, or even Mata in the middle. Force Fulham to tackle in the front of their penalty area and give up free kicks that cannot be stopped by congesting the area. Rooney, Mata, and RvP are fantastic free kick takers. Surely, that might have created some fine chances too? Overall, despicable defending and tactical play in the final ten minutes, plus injury time. Keep the pedal down until injury time, then time waste. Hello, Vidic? When in doubt, clear the damn lines and hoof it...Even Balotelli could figure that out...Judging by Moyes' celebration after going up 2-1 and where he was looking, I'd say the man was under serious pressure with the folks upstairs in the Board Room. I'll not be surprised if he doesn't get a "vote of confidence" real soon...

[Offspring8]

I didn't watch the game so I can't have a say on what went wrong (although when you draw at home against Fulham - who have been notoriously bad away from home for years now - something is obviously in need of sorting out). That said, I would say United have had the same issue as Chelsea (used to have. Matic has more than solved this problem for us) for a while now; a lack of a game changing central midfielder. I'm not saying Carrick or Fletcher are poor, in fact I think they're both very underrated, but I don't see them being players that United can turn to in a moment of real need.

By the way, if United ever play Mata in a position that needs any defensive awareness whatsoever, you're in so much trouble. That's the one reason Mourinho didn't like to use him. For all his attacking skills, his defensive side is as poor as I've ever seen in any top class midfielder. In fact, I've just watched Fulham's first goal and Mata could actually be pointed to as somebody that could have stopped the move. Rooney tracks Sidwell back before passing him onto either Fletcher or Mata but neither of them pick him up. Mata just watches the ball instead of what's going on around him and as a result, Sidwell runs straight past him (he's slightly deeper than Fletcher, so he sould pick up the runner). See Vidic's reaction after the goal; he turns to Mata and Fletcher and asks them what on earth they're doing leaving the midfield runner. Please don't think I'm saying he's the reason Fulham scored that goal, but if it had been a player that was more defensively aware then Sidwell wouldn't have gotten through so easily.