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Europa League? where are you?

mark wilson27

By mark wilson27,
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HorusFM

HorusFM

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I bought FM15. I really like it. Tempted to write again.

Before giving up after 10 posts (got the joke in there first, you b*stards).

You don't call, you don't write, but I still love you.

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HorusFM

HorusFM

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Gav I'm still not comfortable with you showing affection towards other FMSers (especially not Terk, he eats haggis), I thought we spoke about this? Love is a two way street you know!

Unless you involve John Terry and then all kinds of new streets to other peoples partners becomes available. ;)

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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I've been reading about this. Suppose, simply for the sake of argument, Evans is successful in getting his conviction quashed as he is attempting to do. Does that make everything okay?

We have a similar debate here in the States about released criminals. Since they're released, there is an assumption that the individual has paid his debt to society and restricting his freedom to make a living is extraordinary punishment.

Not condoning Evans but wondering where the line should be drawn. Personally, my club wouldn't sign him.

And, as a journalist, I should note that today, #JeSuisCharlie.

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Terk

Terk

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I've been reading about this. Suppose, simply for the sake of argument, Evans is successful in getting his conviction quashed as he is attempting to do. Does that make everything okay?

We have a similar debate here in the States about released criminals. Since they're released, there is an assumption that the individual has paid his debt to society and restricting his freedom to make a living is extraordinary punishment.

Not condoning Evans but wondering where the line should be drawn. Personally, my club wouldn't sign him.

And, as a journalist, I should note that today, #JeSuisCharlie.

These are some general points I have to make on the subject, some related to points you've raised, some not. I feel quite strongly on the subject.

1) He hasn't had his conviction quashed. As things stand he is a convicted and unrepentant rapist. If he were to have it quashed then of course the debate changes. However, given what he has admitted went on that night, and his lack of ability to understand or admit that it was wrong, I still wouldn't want any club I support to go anywhere near him.

2) Any notion of him having 'served his time' or 'paid his debt to society' is wrong. He has served the custodial part of his sentence and has been released under license. He is not a free man and lives under the conditions of his probation.

3) I'm not for one minute suggesting that he shouldn't be able to make a living, but are we really going to say (as many have) that not being able to play football and earn a living far beyond the average from it would ruin his life? I'm certainly not. If we're going to talk about ruined lives, let's talk about the victim who has so far had to move and change her identity five times. This is largely down to the actions of people who call themselves his supporters and only today, after watching a move to a second club collapse, has he been moved to condemn their actions. That to me speaks of a man trying to rescue himself from a desperate situation, rather than one who believes the words he's saying.

4) A rape conviction already puts limits on the ways in which you can make a living. You can't be a teacher, police officer or hold numerous other positions of responsibility if you have been tried and found guilty of rape. Whether we like it or not (and I for one do not think footballers should be treated as role models), sports stars do have an influence on children. That's a fact of life. If we wouldn't allow him to hold other positions in which he can have that influence, why should we allow him to do so by way of playing football?

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WLKRAS

WLKRAS

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I'm with Terk on this one, pretty much word for word what my own opinion on the matter is.

I can also imagine if he does return to football, there'd be a fair few players who'd happily end his involvement in a match...

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BenArsenal

BenArsenal

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I am a believer of second chances and for forgiveness, especially if said offender is truly repentant. I think the problem here is, as stated, he's not been completely acquitted yet. Until a verdict has been reached I think it's best that Evans stay out of the limelight.

If he is found innocent, then he should be allowed to live a normal life as he sees fit. If not however, then he should acknowledge that as well and accept his punishment, something which he hasn't done.

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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4) A rape conviction already puts limits on the ways in which you can make a living. You can't be a teacher, police officer or hold numerous other positions of responsibility if you have been tried and found guilty of rape. Whether we like it or not (and I for one do not think footballers should be treated as role models), sports stars do have an influence on children. That's a fact of life. If we wouldn't allow him to hold other positions in which he can have that influence, why should we allow him to do so by way of playing football?

Assuming this is true, simply for the sake of argument: who decides what employment is acceptable? The general public? Their elected leaders? Who?

Not suggesting I'd sign this guy. Let's make that perfectly clear. And in America, he'd be called a parolee, someone who has served a custodial sentence and is on release.

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CFuller

CFuller

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Lee Hughes spent three years in jail for causing death by dangerous driving.

Luke McCormick killed two young boys (aged 10 and 8) in a car crash caused by drink-driving.

Graham Rix served six months for having sex with an underage girl.

Craig Thomson was placed on the sex offenders register after preying on two schoolgirls online.

All four men were allowed to resume their careers in football... so why should Ched Evans be denied a second chance?

I certainly would not want Evans to play for any club that I support, or even have a soft spot for, but he should not be completely cast aside by the football community.

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sherm

sherm

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On the Ched Evans point, there are many things I've heard, however, my theory on it is this. He was found guilty of rape, whether he believes he was or not, in a court of law. A friend of mine who is a lawyer tells me rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove aswell. Still, on Evans himself, I have a couple of points...

1) The problem I can see in the main is that he is completely unrepentant of his crime. had he been released, apologised and showed remorse, it may have enticed a slightly different reaction. Maybe not, but we won't know.

2) I do think that the lad should be allowed to earn a living. Whether that be in football is another matter, but as CFuller stated, Lee Hughes, Luke McCormick, Graham Rix and Craig Thomson were all allowed to resume a career within the game

This is a debate that will rage on, and I don't believe he will not find a club. Someone somewhere will take him on a contract

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salkster2102

salkster2102

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I'll throw my two pennies worth in since I started this topic. Clearly Ched is showing no remorse and hasn't apologised for the ordeal. If he hasn't committed the crime he was convicted of, which is possible, then would any general person apologise for something they haven't done? Especially for something as serious as this and the aftermath it has caused. If he does win his appeal he will then be able to apply for a loss of earnings. Now i'm not very knowledgeable on these matters, but would the money from this come from the taxpayer? If so then how ironic would that be with the uproar it has caused.

I agree with CFuller's comment that if those other people are allowed to continue their careers then Ched should too. The problem being they didn't have so much coverage as Ched does now so won't have encountered the same length of problem. Footballers are not role models which infuriates me when the media discuss them as such. For what they do on the pitch certainly kids try to emulate what they do but any crimes off the pitch is down to parents teaching their kids what is right and wrong. No kid is going to think about doing a Ched Evans and raping someone. Or do anything by the said players in CFuller's comment and blame it on them. There's plenty of celebrities and musicians with criminal records yet there is no mention of their crimes anytime they do anything new. It smacks of a bit of a witchhunt from the media against Ched in my opinion.

If Ched cannot play football, which will probably be decided pending his court appeal, then what careers should he then be limited to? Any industry he works in could lose custom if their customers find out a high profile rapist is found working for them. Where do we draw the line as to what he can do and who really has the right to say what he can or can't do? Can understand if it's in professions in the public sector as no taxpayer will want to pay the wage of a convicted rapist. Football clubs are being held to blackmail by sponsors and the general opposition to Ched.

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CFuller

CFuller

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Fill me in. I haven't seen him and from the way you describe it, that's a good thing!

Terrible commentator. These are just some of the quotes he comes up with every game:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/6-andy-townsends-greatest-quotes-4940650

In fact, he's so predictable that some of us like to play Andy Townsend bingo when he's on ITV:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsIFhJAIQAAhQ8O.jpg

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Terk

Terk

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Lee Hughes spent three years in jail for causing death by dangerous driving.

Luke McCormick killed two young boys (aged 10 and 8) in a car crash caused by drink-driving.

Graham Rix served six months for having sex with an underage girl.

Craig Thomson was placed on the sex offenders register after preying on two schoolgirls online.

All four men were allowed to resume their careers in football... so why should Ched Evans be denied a second chance?

I certainly would not want Evans to play for any club that I support, or even have a soft spot for, but he should not be completely cast aside by the football community.

So because mistakes have been made in the past, the right thing shouldn't be done this time?

For the record, I was against each one of those people resuming their careers in football, particularly Rix and Thomson, who were involved with Hearts. I refused to attend any Hearts match or put any money into the club while Rix was in charge and I was dismayed when Thomson was punted to Kaunas (a club also owned by Romanov) on loan.

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Terk

Terk

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Fill me in. I haven't seen him and from the way you describe it, that's a good thing!

Andy Townsend is an awful colour commentator for ITV. He speaks in nothing but cliches and simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Also, his use of the phrase "in an around" is hilariously awful. During the World Cup, he actually said

"Daniel Sturridge has been elbowed in and around his throat, there."

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Terk

Terk

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I am a believer of second chances and for forgiveness, especially if said offender is truly repentant. I think the problem here is, as stated, he's not been completely acquitted yet. Until a verdict has been reached I think it's best that Evans stay out of the limelight.

If he is found innocent, then he should be allowed to live a normal life as he sees fit. If not however, then he should acknowledge that as well and accept his punishment, something which he hasn't done.

Ben, that's the point. A verdict HAS been reached. He was found guilty. Obviously some convictions do get overturned after the fact, and I'm not going to sit here and suggest that innocent people have never been put away, but rape is an exceptionally tough crime to get a conviction for. As far as I'm aware, it's very rare for someone to be wrongly convicted of rape.

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WLKRAS

WLKRAS

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http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30727729

Feel free to defend this, if you like.

Again, I'm not defending Evans. But your thoughts on Harry Redknapp's comments would be interesting.

Oh I wouldn't defend the idiots who threatened to rape a board members daughter if Oldham sign Evans (oh the irony). Two wrongs don't make a right.

As for Redknapps comments, does have to continue to be a footballer? There are plenty of other walks of life for him to make a living in (he's a qualified plumber iirc), so its not like he's being denied the right to exist

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Terk

Terk

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http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30727729

Feel free to defend this, if you like.

Again, I'm not defending Evans. But your thoughts on Harry Redknapp's comments would be interesting.

Anyone who has made threats on Oldham players or staff is a cretin and should be dealt with appropriately by the law. There is no defence for that.

As for Redknapp's comments, again he's trotting out this idea of Evans having "served his time". And once again, I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to carry on with his life, but rape is one of the most destructive crimes its possible to commit and he has ruined the life of his victim through his actions. It may be a fundamental position of disagreement we've reached, but I don't think it's unreasonable for those who have committed such heinous crimes to have certain positions of privilege and potential influence withheld from them.

Also, Evans attempts to paint himself some sort of victim in this saga with Oldham is, frankly, disgusting.

Anyway, I think I've said enough on the matter.

I'd much rather talk about Liverpool's desperate need for a goalkeeper. Because Simon Mignolet is absolute bobbins.

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Offspring8

Offspring8

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I'd much rather talk about Liverpool's desperate need for a goalkeeper. Because Simon Mignolet is absolute bobbins.

We've got some Czech 'keeper spare at Stamford Bridge who has stopped a shot or two in his time, fancy seeing him wearing your number 1 shirt?

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Terk

Terk

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What happened to Mignolet anyway, wasn't he the bees knees at Sunderland?

He had the same failings, but they weren't exposed at Sunderland. When he first joined Liverpool, he was an excellent shot stopper, he made a number of crucial saves and won points in his first six months. But as his inability to deal with crosses or play the ball out with his feet as we require, his confidence was eroded away and he stopped being able to save anything either. But at least he's not Brad Jones. He doesn't dive out of the way of shots.

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tenthreeleader

tenthreeleader

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Ben, that's the point. A verdict HAS been reached. He was found guilty. Obviously some convictions do get overturned after the fact, and I'm not going to sit here and suggest that innocent people have never been put away, but rape is an exceptionally tough crime to get a conviction for. As far as I'm aware, it's very rare for someone to be wrongly convicted of rape.

There was a study released in Virginia two years ago by the non-partisan Urban Institute Justice Policy Center suggesting that between 8 and 13 percent of convictions for rape in that state between 1973 and 1987 were wrongful. Again, individual facts may vary but it may not be as uncommon as people might think.

So yes, a verdict was reached and Evans served time. But there is considerable debate on whether the science of obtaining convictions is completely accurate. I don't know enough about the facts of the Evans case to have a valid opinion but there appears to be room for debate. It's why he is trying to have the conviction quashed, and presumably why he has not apologized.

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sherm

sherm

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Terk, I rated Mignolet highly at Sunderland but seems to have gone off the boil at Liverpool. Strange one really. I know people rate De Gea as the best 'keeper in the league, personally I would plump for Hugo Lloris. Just an opinion of mine...

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Offspring8

Offspring8

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F*ck yes, but there's no chance it'd happen.

For me it depends on what kind of deal you can offer him and whether Cech wants to stay in England or play abroad. Chelsea have already said they won't stand in his was should he wish to go to Arsenal or Liverpool (as long as they get a good price) due to his years of service with the club. It's more down to who has the money and where Cech wants to play!

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WLKRAS

WLKRAS

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He had the same failings, but they weren't exposed at Sunderland. When he first joined Liverpool, he was an excellent shot stopper, he made a number of crucial saves and won points in his first six months. But as his inability to deal with crosses or play the ball out with his feet as we require, his confidence was eroded away and he stopped being able to save anything either. But at least he's not Brad Jones. He doesn't dive out of the way of shots.

Wait, so he's Paul Robinson?

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CFuller

CFuller

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So because mistakes have been made in the past, the right thing shouldn't be done this time?

For the record, I was against each one of those people resuming their careers in football, particularly Rix and Thomson, who were involved with Hearts. I refused to attend any Hearts match or put any money into the club while Rix was in charge and I was dismayed when Thomson was punted to Kaunas (a club also owned by Romanov) on loan.

For what it's worth, I did not want to see any of those four people I named return to football - particularly not McCormick. I was appalled when Plymouth took him back. For them to then give McCormick the club captaincy (prior to this season) just beggared belief.

We all have our own opinions on Ched Evans, so let those of us who have conflicting views agree to disagree.

Liverpool need a new goalkeeper, definitely - but perhaps not as badly as Arsenal. Wojciech Szczesny seems to be more interested in emulating Socrates than David Seaman. If David Ospina has a couple of shockers or picks up yet another injury, I can see Arsene bringing in another goalie before the month is out.

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Terk

Terk

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Liverpool need a new goalkeeper, definitely - but perhaps not as badly as Arsenal. Wojciech Szczesny seems to be more interested in emulating Socrates than David Seaman. If David Ospina has a couple of shockers or picks up yet another injury, I can see Arsene bringing in another goalie before the month is out.

At least they have Ospina as back up. We have Brad Jones, ffs.

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WLKRAS

WLKRAS

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There was a study released in Virginia two years ago by the non-partisan Urban Institute Justice Policy Center suggesting that between 8 and 13 percent of convictions for rape in that state between 1973 and 1987 were wrongful. Again, individual facts may vary but it may not be as uncommon as people might think.

So yes, a verdict was reached and Evans served time. But there is considerable debate on whether the science of obtaining convictions is completely accurate. I don't know enough about the facts of the Evans case to have a valid opinion but there appears to be room for debate. It's why he is trying to have the conviction quashed, and presumably why he has not apologized.

He believes sex was consensual, the prosecution argued that she was too drunk to give consent. Why anyone would want to have sex with someone in that state is beyond me, but that's a whole different discussion altogether

Also, is a study between 1973 and 1987 a valid representation of how the situation is now? I can imagine that the technological advances that have been made since that would lower that rate? I'm not saying any judicial system is flawless, after all, they are still governed by humans, but I do (like to) think that we've improved that rate.

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Terk

Terk

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He believes sex was consensual, the prosecution argued that she was too drunk to give consent. Why anyone would want to have sex with someone in that state is beyond me, but that's a whole different discussion altogether.

Not only that but it was his friend (Clayton MacDonald) who met the girl, then texted Evans saying "I've got a bird". Evans went to the hotel, watched MacDonald have sex with her, then joined in while his friends attempted to film it.

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CFuller

CFuller

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And Gordon Taylor (the head of the PFA) has just likened Evans' situation to Hillsborough. I officially wash my hands of any further discussion on this, I'm f*cking done.

That's just ridiculous. Gordon Taylor is a disgrace.

I too won't say any more about Ched Evans. Let's move onto another topic.

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