Syrup & Honey - A tactical discussion

[Cleon]

I dont no

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buxton:

Nope, no Counter.

Cleon - I don't think it matters too much about having players that can play comfortably on both sides, I mean I am playing Oba Martins as the AML and his last 5 appearances have seen 8-8-8-6-8 ratings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm I'll try

[jojko]

any advice for this possisions FC DR DL MC?

[aston_martin]

Hmm, I think I will try this sort of tactic with my Villa team - seems like it could work well with Maloney and Young swapping on the wings with Huntelaar as the main ST to feed off.

[Mr Charisma]

Looks promising alright. I just tried it away to Chelsea and I got a 2-2 draw and was unlucky not to win cos Cech was their man of the match. My possession was 49% which is pretty good away to Chelsea.

Think I'll stick with it.

[GunnersFan]

Was going well until I came up against Man Utd playing a 4-2-3-1, I don't know how I came out of there with just a 0-1 loss.

This formation looks very promising but I was wondering have you ever had similiar problems playing against a 4-2-3-1 and what did you do?

Cheers

[FMS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jojko:

i finish 1:1 with 8 shot and possesion 43% but celta have 14 shot 57% possesion 82% good passes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm suggest, you should play a few games with this tac. One game doesn't display what any tac is worth.

[lam]

Cleon,

I am intruiged, especial following your other post about unlucky AI.

What also interests me is another conversation we had not so long ago, about building tactics (not formation) from the standard setup from the PI screen.

I was wondering, was this part of what you wanted to acheive? to show people that the standard settings work.

The reason i ask this is because in all cases (bar the stiker) on slider has moved somewhere in the region of 4 clicks, whilst 2 or 3 others have move just 3 or 4 clicks, therefore, this could be considered the default positions?

I'm gonna give this a bash and see what happens.

Lee

[lam]

Cleon,

Would you mind if i asked who your striker is and his abilities.

I am (only) halfway through my first game playing a far inferior team, yet i can not seem to link to my striker.

My FC is slow, but leathal shooting (20).

Lee

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GunnersFan:

Was going well until I came up against Man Utd playing a 4-2-3-1, I don't know how I came out of there with just a 0-1 loss.

This formation looks very promising but I was wondering have you ever had similiar problems playing against a 4-2-3-1 and what did you do?

Cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What sort of problems? do you watch games?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I was wondering, was this part of what you wanted to acheive? to show people that the standard settings work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No because they are not the standard settings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The reason i ask this is because in all cases (bar the stiker) on slider has moved somewhere in the region of 4 clicks, whilst 2 or 3 others have move just 3 or 4 clicks, therefore, this could be considered the default positions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can it be considered default when there different? The settings for some players differ quite a lot from the default ones, so I dont get were your coming from

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lam:

Cleon,

Would you mind if i asked who your striker is and his abilities.

I am (only) halfway through my first game playing a far inferior team, yet i can not seem to link to my striker.

My FC is slow, but leathal shooting (20).

Lee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lone striker needs pace. Surely from the stats posted above you can tell who my striker was? Billy Sharp, but I've sold him now and got someone else.

[lam]

I miss typed one of my words.

I meant to say that 'in all cases ONE slider' not on slider, it read as though every slider had moved alot.

If that was not your intention then fair enough. I still think that they are very close to the default position.

I won my last game 7-0, however 6 of the goals were scored by the DC on corners, the final was berb (who i subbed on) who got a nice header.

Do you use target man? and run on ball, i did not set it up with this, but i will give it a try in my next game and see what happens.

Lee

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I meant to say that 'in all cases ONE slider' not on slider, it read as though every slider had moved alot.

If that was not your intention then fair enough. I still think that they are very close to the default position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that can be said about most peoples. Its just certain positions need certain mentality, fwrs etc so not much different you can do. Anyone who makes tactics should use simliar settings as they arent many options you have.

And no I dont use a targetman, did you read the post? I explained everything....

[lam]

Cleon,

Yes i did read the post, and there is no reference to a target man either way, which is fine if you are not using one.

However, considering the problem i am having with connecting with my FC, i thought that the question was a reasonable one.

If you post topics up here for discussion, then (imo) you have to expect questions on items that you have not made reference too.

And as always, everyone has their own opinion and you may disagree with what i have just posted.

Lee

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lam:

Cleon,

Yes i did read the post, and there is no reference to a target man either way, which is fine if you are not using one.

However, considering the problem i am having with connecting with my FC, i thought that the question was a reasonable one.

If you post topics up here for discussion, then (imo) you have to expect questions on items that you have not made reference too.

And as always, everyone has their own opinion and you may disagree with what i have just posted.

Lee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I posted the strikers settings, so i thought it was clear and enough reference. By all means I dont mind discussing stuff, but no things thats been covered, it becomes tiresome for me

If something isnt mentioned then I dont use it. I mention everything I use.

It could work with a targetman though, but he will still need pace, composure and very good off the ball

[Cleon]

So far played 10 games in my first season in the EPL. I've already played all the big sides apart from Liverpool, so things look really promising as I hope to get into Europe.

Not bad considering my defence still needs atleast 2 more quality players and the players I did bring in still havent adapted yet.

In the Man Utd match, I had no choice but to play a counter attacking game as the side they put out was far superior than mine. So I had to invite them onto me, in the hope I outscored them as man for man I had no chance. It didn't quite go to plan, but a draw was still a very good result.

[lam]

I am only a few games in at present, but i have to say that i love this defensively.

However, as posted previously i am having problems linking with my Striker.

Sadly i do not have a decent striker with pace. i have three slow but great strikers or two youths coming from the ranks and they both have pace, but do not have the finishing abilities required at my level.

I shall perservere as i like the way the team play with this to.

I do not think however the mixed passing suits my team (maybe an emotional option as i like short passing). I am playing around with various settings.

Lee

[Cleon]

I prefer mixed for some players as they have good footballing brains, so I allow them license to judge what sort of pass to make. But id give them specific ones if they were poor

Remember though, if you have a player try TTB's often, you need to give him mixed for it to work.

Have you tried lowering the mentality of the striker, to see if he gets more involved? How are they not linking up with him exactly? Balls not reaching him, is he too far away? or the balls been cut out etc?

I know I'm biased, but imo you cannot get better than this defensivley on FM.

How different do you set up from me btw?

[lam]

Cleon,

Your point on lowering the mentality was the next thing i was going to try. I think my strikers are either not good enough to play this attacking or are to slow to play this way. I will bring it back a little.

In relation to how differently i set up from you:

Where the sliders were close together for many players i now have a gloabal setting. Example: Mentality for Wingbacks, Wing, MC (attacking one) are all on global and i move that around. I have done the same for passing style. Although i will now change this a little.

I did not know that you needed mix passing for TTB to work well. Probably explains why all my MC's always have to run with the ball first to make a pass as i generally play with very very short passing in my team.

Oddly enough, your style of play is very similar to my 442. my left wing got the crosses in with the WBL being more defensive than my right as he has slightly lower attacking skill, yet my right side was very attacking. I have farfan running in on rare crossing and he was my second best scorer and i had Rafina (awesome) moving into the space farfan leaves.

This is a simple change for me and is incredible defensively.

Once i can get my striker more involved i will love this because it gets around my emotional inability to play 5 at the back. I wont do it !!!!! but the barrows working amazingly. Fortunately i am blessed with a very very strong defence anyway, so i expect to concede very few with this.

Sorry to bable on!!!

In relation to my stiker, the balls just do not seem to reach him (need to lower ment) and the ones that do, tend to result in the turn and shoot tactic, which gets him his shots on goal, but has not yet resulted in scoring.

The only goal my striker got so far was when he was subbed for Berbatov to come on and he got a great header.

btw - with this formation/tactic, you answer another post of mine about getting a good game out of Downing....... this does it! wont have to sell him now.

ill keep you updated about the striker.

Lee

[lam]

Cleon,

The balls that your striker picks up, does he 'run onto them' or does he pick them up deep and run with the balls?

I'm not talking about target man here

[Cleon]

He does a mixture, his all roun dplay is excellent. Re watch the PKM and see how he moves and what sort of balls

[lam]

ah.... forgot i downloaded that.

I will re-watch it.

Lee

[Stian1234]

Could you post team settings? That way you'll have every right to get annoyed if people ask whether you're using a playmaker or target man.

I quite like the idea of playmakers, but I do agree that they (as well as target man) are a bit counter-productive in FM. If you had two wingers, might using the crossing winger as a playmaker work? If you have him swap with the other winger, it might make your attacking force a bit more unpredictable. (On the other hand, playmakers make your game a little predictable, so it's a bit of a catch 22.)

Good thread. I'm usually just a voyeur, but I thought I'd give contributing a shot here.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Could you post team settings? That way you'll have every right to get annoyed if people ask whether you're using a playmaker or target man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've already stated everything is default and down to the user to decide. Remember I've not put this up for people to copy. If I've used something I've stated so.

Using a playmaker limits the team and play through them, rather than play through all my strengths. I dont like focusing through 1 player.

[lam]

Cleon,

I have just compared who i consider to be my best striker and oddly enough, he is superior in almost every aspect to Billy Sharp. In fact the only skill (attack related) that he is inferior to Bill is creativity which was 16-12 in favour of Billy.

Based on this i am unsure as to why he is not scoring like he used to.

Do teams take time to get used to a new formation? My team have 'developed a strong understanding', which i beleive should link them well together.

Your thoughts would be appreciated......

thanks

Lee

[Cleon]

Yes it does take time.

I've got a striker now who scores for fun, but only if he comes on as a sub. If he starts he underperforms and hes a possible wonderkid and as good as any striker in the league

[McTavish]

Good post.

It's interesting because I pretty much always stick to 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 since FM08, just for a change more than anything. One of the weaknesses is that you don't often get players to byline to knock in crosses regardless of where you play your wide men, because you almost never create an overlap. This can make the formation a bit sterile going forwards; but playing with wingbacks and wingers would solve this. I'll give it a go I think.

One small suggestion if you haven't tried it; set your central DC to higher closing down so he closes down the space in front of your other central defenders. I've found it pretty effective, especially against teams that play and AMC. It's also useful for a control tactic if he has some technique, passing etc, as if you notch his mentality/CF up a touch he'll sit just inside the opposition half and provide an easy passing option.

[markis_mcghee]

Hi Cleon. I tried the formation and altered it to suit my players. But unfortunatly I lost 2 won 1 and I was lucky to win that game! I don't like playing without a Defensie midfielder so I think I will alter it but put in a DM. Can't play without one unfortunatly!

[lam]

McTavish - i do something similar to your Central DC suggestion. I have managed to sign Mattieu Bodmer who is a strong midfielder with good skill in defence. I have him as my Central DC with a team mentality which is ofter well over half way, i find that with this he is often the first line of defence when teams are attacking through the middle, he als makes a good distributor for long balls from defence..... one thing to note, when they are bad passes they are very bad, but i have got two goals in 6 games from his assists.

Cleon - i have another question in relation to my striker. From your other post (about the AI being unlucky) you made reference to the quality of your wingers and how they demanded the attention of the defenders as much if not more than your strikers. Has this been the case for most of your teams?

The reason i ask is that my striker is the 2nd highest in the league, therefore he is overcrowded everytime he gets the ball and my wingers do not seem to be getting the attention (i think) they deserve .......

Lee

[Wes_Coulam]

Is there any chance someone can either send me all the screen shots or alternatively save the first page (Save As) then send the file on to:-

248-omc18@a.dii.mod.uk

Im currently accesing the internet through a militry network and it doesnt allow imageshack to show up so anyone who could do this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Wes.

[AcidBurn]

I have never really had the confidence to et up my own tactic properly unless its with a team that has awesome players. I have only had succes with a 4-4-2 diamond that I have done myself.

Thanks for this thread its a very interesting read after reading through a few of the posts in this forum I think I may beable to set up a decent tactic based on this. Sounds stupid but I never really looked in this forum much and until recently never even knew that a tactic could be set up with and emphasis on player instructions rather than team instructions.

I think I am going to try to set up a tactic with this formation as a basis with either Crewe, Ipswich or QPR.

I like the way the wingers have been set up seems a good idea to have one to score and one to cross and stuff.

Once again thanks this thread is great.

[McTavish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wes_Coulam:

Is there any chance someone can either send me all the screen shots or alternatively save the first page (Save As) then send the file on to:-

248-omc18@a.dii.mod.uk

Im currently accesing the internet through a militry network and it doesnt allow imageshack to show up so anyone who could do this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Wes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just sent the first page over, check your emails

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cleon - i have another question in relation to my striker. From your other post (about the AI being unlucky) you made reference to the quality of your wingers and how they demanded the attention of the defenders as much if not more than your strikers. Has this been the case for most of your teams? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using this tactic yes, as the wingers are more of a threat than any other player. You only have to watch my games to see this. Its not uncommon to see my wingers get ratings of 10 in some games where they are allowed to dictate

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Thanks for this thread its a very interesting read after reading through a few of the posts in this forum I think I may beable to set up a decent tactic based on this. Sounds stupid but I never really looked in this forum much and until recently never even knew that a tactic could be set up with and emphasis on player instructions rather than team instructions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The indivudual set up if what makes you a great manager and makes it possible to have great success in tactics. But it can also be the downfall of a lot, due the complexity of them

[Alurny]

Brilliant in my first game.

I am Newcastle United, first season.

Keeps the ball well, (I play narrow, shortish passing, slowish tempo) Martins coming in from the right, Owen from the Left and Kissling in the center.

I have both "wingers" set up as strikers, one defensive minded-ish MC the other an attacking MC (Van Der Vaart)

Both my fullbacks got forward well, habib set to forward runs and crossing often, Enrique with both to mixed.

Naldo is my "sweeper" CB, Zonal marking, Taylor and Faye man mark.

Works well, just had 24 shots, 55% possession to their 2 shots.

The attacking CM (VDV) needs some work but it worked well so far. Thankyou Cleon.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alurny:

Brilliant in my first game.

I am Newcastle United, first season.

Keeps the ball well, (I play narrow, shortish passing, slowish tempo) Martins coming in from the right, Owen from the Left and Kissling in the center.

I have both "wingers" set up as strikers, one defensive minded-ish MC the other an attacking MC (Van Der Vaart)

Both my fullbacks got forward well, habib set to forward runs and crossing often, Enrique with both to mixed.

Naldo is my "sweeper" CB, Zonal marking, Taylor and Faye man mark.

Works well, just had 24 shots, 55% possession to their 2 shots.

The attacking CM (VDV) needs some work but it worked well so far. Thankyou Cleon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you liked how it played in the game The attacking MC is more of an assist guy on my game. He scores a few too but its mainly his through balls what are killers. Someone like VD could be devastating this way

[pb_underdog]

Hi Cleon

How nice of you to offer some of your excellent insight. Its very helpfull to me (and others it seems). I´ve tried implementin some of you ideas but still have a couple of things i´m wondering about:

I really don´t get your mentality setup. I see you point about clashing of wide players but it seems something else i going on? Maybe the way they are passing, switching to other flank?

I´m very keen on the winger setup with switching places. Very efficient with players cutting in and scoring in the far corner. Look brilliantly. I think this can be achived with amc´s with barrows to. They run in the gaps between FBs an DCs and you eliminate the problems (if there is any?) with players beeing in wrong positions. Might be worth a shot, but could be a problem defensivly.

[lam]

Cleon,

I am simply not getting the ratings you are getting. I am winning games and conceding few goals, but i want the front lot to play well and i feel that i am scoring soft goals.

When i was playing my 442 i was able to dictate games by playing a slow short wide game on normal attack or i could switch to a fast attacking game and dictate that way.

I can not seem to bring in my front lot to support each other.

I dont want all the soloutions as you have said, its different for differnt teams, but could you explain how you set up to start.

I like to play short slow passing game with slow build up, but it doesnt seem to work with this.

lee

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I really don´t get your mentality setup. I see you point about clashing of wide players but it seems something else i going on? Maybe the way they are passing, switching to other flank? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you mean? The mentalities relate to the positions of the pitch I want them to play in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I´m very keen on the winger setup with switching places. Very efficient with players cutting in and scoring in the far corner. Look brilliantly. I think this can be achived with amc´s with barrows to. They run in the gaps between FBs an DCs and you eliminate the problems (if there is any?) with players beeing in wrong positions. Might be worth a shot, but could be a problem defensivly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not looking to change the shape, but you could and see how it went

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Cleon,

I am simply not getting the ratings you are getting. I am winning games and conceding few goals, but i want the front lot to play well and i feel that i am scoring soft goals.

When i was playing my 442 i was able to dictate games by playing a slow short wide game on normal attack or i could switch to a fast attacking game and dictate that way.

I can not seem to bring in my front lot to support each other.

I dont want all the soloutions as you have said, its different for differnt teams, but could you explain how you set up to start.

I like to play short slow passing game with slow build up, but it doesnt seem to work with this.

lee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explain what exactly? I've posted the settings and the reasons behind them, I dont know what else you want me to tell you about them? I'm a little confused, sorry.

Short and slow does work, however my set up is all about attacking so slow and short doesnt work as good with the settings I posted, as players are too far apart.

If you want slow and short, then you need to alter the mentalities of players and get them more closer to each other.

[Wes_Coulam]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by McTavish:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wes_Coulam:

Is there any chance someone can either send me all the screen shots or alternatively save the first page (Save As) then send the file on to:-

248-omc18@a.dii.mod.uk

Im currently accesing the internet through a militry network and it doesnt allow imageshack to show up so anyone who could do this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Wes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just sent the first page over, check your emails </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You Very Much

[Alurny]

One thing, with regards to defensive line: How do you set it up?

Deep seems to be a no no as it invites pressure in this set up for me.

[isuckatfm]

@ Cleon

Any chance of a pkm of the Arsenal or Chelsea home matches? No worries if you can't be arsed

[Wes_Coulam]

McTavish, the page you sent was just text.

If anyone can send the first page with all the pics included that would be awesome. (Cant view any of the pics due to a filter blocking them)

248-omc18@a.dii.mod.uk

[lam]

Wes,

Just pasted it into a word doc and sent it. messy but works.

Lee

[Wes_Coulam]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lam:

Wes,

Just pasted it into a word doc and sent it. messy but works.

Lee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not a problem aslong as i have the pics.

Thanks Lee.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

@ Cleon

Any chance of a pkm of the Arsenal or Chelsea home matches? No worries if you can't be arsed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Chelsea one is here Link - This was a bad day though.

I'll upload the Arsenal one tomorrow when I'm home and you'll see it was more even than the Chelsea one

[isuckatfm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Chelsea one is here Link - This was a bad day though.

I'll upload the Arsenal one tomorrow when I'm home and you'll see it was more even than the Chelsea one </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers.

I'm having a hell of a time beating superior sides on this version (knocked out of the playoffs a couple of times by teams that had just come down as well as getting nowhere in cups). Hoping to pick something up as I can't get counter attacking working well as when I sit deep the better opposition just tear me to shreds, and when I go at them I can get a reasonable performance but the quality will come through with better chance conversion.

[Cleon]

The Arsenal match will be better then, as I set about them. I gave them a fair few shots but thats expected as I attacked constant.

The Man Utd game was different though, I had to play deep and counter attacking. I knew id get torn to shreds but I knew id score too. I'll try get both uploaded for you, as both are different. 1 is me bottling it and playing counter and other is me going for it

I always bottle it with Man Utd, always struggle with them. I never have players good enough to cope with Ronaldo, Rooney and Nani.

[Alexio]

Just wondering what you change when youre "going for it" and when "bottling up".

When you go attacking i.ex against arsenal your d.line, width, TW, tempo is what?

Asuming you dont change any other settings.

Know you change during games and so on, if you dont like what you see, but would be nice with a certain guidence on how to set up pre match in the example i suggested.

And the same for the game against Manu, when you do the opposite.

If you think this is a dumb request, and you feel you have already answered this i apoligize. =)

[Cleon]

When I go for it against Arsenal, I just play my normal game, which is in the screenshots. Last notch of normal, same for d-line etc. When bottling it I go defensive, deep d-line and counter attack.

[lam]

Cleon,

You know that you did not post a screen shot of your team tactics?

You make reference in your last post to this informaiton being found in the screen shots.

Lee