4141 keeping the ball and creating chances (or doing neither)

[alanfishead]

Hello!

I originally posted this in @herne79's thread (below) as I was having trouble trying to implement a possession style of play he talks about. However, as @Experienced Defender pointed out, I should start my own thread so here I am!

 

 

In the past I've always tried to play quick attacking football however, this year I decided to go for a more possession based system. Herne's thread was immensely helpful but I'm struggling to get them playing as I want to. I've started the season okay results wise (P7 W5 L2), currently sitting 5th, 3 point of the leaders Chelsea.

Firstly, the possession stats aren't consistent. I'm predicted to finish 7th so a lot of teams tend to sit back and try and counter. Some games I can have 60%+ but others I can see less than 50% and that's against smaller defensive teams as well. I've included some screenshots of the key players in the squad below and my two main midfielders like to shoot from distance which isn't too helpful so there are a few times when this causes unnecessary turnovers in possession.

My second problem, and the one that I'm more concerned about is the amount of good chances I create. I'm not talking about the FM opinion on a CCC as they can sometimes be questionable, but my own opinion such as a clear 1 on 1 with the keeper. With a lower tempo or shorter passing I'm expecting to see a probing approach with an incisive pass to a striker or winger/IF, or for the fullback or winger to pull it back to a deep lying midfielder in space on the edge of the box. What I'm seeing is my midfielders on the edge of the box being closed down by 2 or 3 defenders and still trying to shoot through them. In FM terms, in my first 7 games I've created 3 CCC (2 of which were in a 2-1 loss to Man City). Not exactly threatening football. I've watched most games in full so far to try and get a grasp of it and it's been clear that we've got lucky so far. According to tactical analysis screen I've created 3 chances and conceded 6 in the last 5 games. 

Below is my base tactic and my squad with what I think are key attributes to help with possession football. I've also included screenshots of all key players in my team. Any advice or help is welcome as I'm beginning to get incredibly frustrated with this game. Note that my roles change from game to game as well. 

So Eggestein is usually a CF(S) but recently I've had more success with a Poacher up front. AML is always and IF but duty changes. AMR is either a Winger (on support or attack) or a treq. The midfield pair alternate on duties depending on the AML & AMR duties but their roles stay the same. The only other thing that changes is the full backs between FB(S) and IWB(S) depending on the midfield 2.

This is my entire squad:

And these are my key players:

 

 

Lastly, this guy came through the youth system and was immediately worth £6.5m as soon as he signed a contract so I think he's good! I'd like to have a system with him as the main threat in the long run! He's still only young though!

 

Anyway, as I said, I'd love some guidance advice on how to implement what I'm after or even if I should be trying to achieve something slightly different with the players I have.

 

Let me know if you need any more screenshots/info! Thanks in advance

 

 

 

[sporadicsmiles]

A priori there is nothing obviously wrong with this tactic. It seems relatively well balanced and set up with good roles and duties. I'd check that your two central midfielders are not too advanced relative to the more defensive players behind, so they can reach the pivot players behind them with passes to recycle the ball.

I'd therefore start to look at some of the instructions you are giving, and why. I like to point out that possession is a means to an end, but not an end in itself. It is mostly a defensive tool, keep the ball away from the other side and they cannot score. As Herne points out in his thread, you have to strike a balance between keeping the ball and being direct enough to score. I have a played with a formation not too dissimilar from this for a few years. I average around 55% possession, which is enough for me.

One thing to keep in mind is that you are going to give the opposition time to get back into their defensive positions if you are slow in your build up play. And teams are much more difficult to break down once they have gotten into their defensive positions. Especially if they have a deep D-line. There simply is not space behind them to put through balls in. This is one of the things that leads to long shots and crossing - they are often the best attacking outlet. This means you have to rely on players to create space. In particular your striker is going to be very important in this respect. His movement, dragging players out of position, will be what creates space for the CM(A) and IF(A). If he plays badly, you team will probably do badly.

Another thing to think about is using less dribbling. I know why you do this, encourage a player to pass rather than run at a defender and lose the ball. However, this takes away some of the directness of your side. If you have a player who is good at dribbling, let him run at defenders. All he has to do is beat one to disrupt the defensive shape of the opposition. You can selectively use this, for instance. Same for shorter passing. It will help with keeping the ball, but sometimes it is not appropriate.

Finally, you have gone for a positive strategy (more risks) with some TIs to reduce the risk. Perhaps you could also try doing the opposite on some occasions. A less risky strategy (balanced, cautious) and some TIs which increase the risk (or PIs for specific players to the same effect). These are two ways to approach the same end result, but you may find one or the other being more successful in different situations.

[alanfishead]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

A priori there is nothing obviously wrong with this tactic. It seems relatively well balanced and set up with good roles and duties. I'd check that your two central midfielders are not too advanced relative to the more defensive players behind, so they can reach the pivot players behind them with passes to recycle the ball.

I'd therefore start to look at some of the instructions you are giving, and why. I like to point out that possession is a means to an end, but not an end in itself. It is mostly a defensive tool, keep the ball away from the other side and they cannot score. As Herne points out in his thread, you have to strike a balance between keeping the ball and being direct enough to score. I have a played with a formation not too dissimilar from this for a few years. I average around 55% possession, which is enough for me.

One thing to keep in mind is that you are going to give the opposition time to get back into their defensive positions if you are slow in your build up play. And teams are much more difficult to break down once they have gotten into their defensive positions. Especially if they have a deep D-line. There simply is not space behind them to put through balls in. This is one of the things that leads to long shots and crossing - they are often the best attacking outlet. This means you have to rely on players to create space. In particular your striker is going to be very important in this respect. His movement, dragging players out of position, will be what creates space for the CM(A) and IF(A). If he plays badly, you team will probably do badly.

Another thing to think about is using less dribbling. I know why you do this, encourage a player to pass rather than run at a defender and lose the ball. However, this takes away some of the directness of your side. If you have a player who is good at dribbling, let him run at defenders. All he has to do is beat one to disrupt the defensive shape of the opposition. You can selectively use this, for instance. Same for shorter passing. It will help with keeping the ball, but sometimes it is not appropriate.

Finally, you have gone for a positive strategy (more risks) with some TIs to reduce the risk. Perhaps you could also try doing the opposite on some occasions. A less risky strategy (balanced, cautious) and some TIs which increase the risk (or PIs for specific players to the same effect). These are two ways to approach the same end result, but you may find one or the other being more successful in different situations.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that it's not far away, it's just missing something that adds that bit extra. I think I need to simplify the TIs a bit and maybe try and retain possession when I'm in the position I want to be in being either protecting a lead or holding out for a draw. 

I see what you mean about upping the tempo a bit to stop the opposition getting back into their defensive shape however, if I try and play quicker in a transition into attack, I've got to give my players time to catch up with play. Especially as I'm playing with a loan striker. Or have I got this wrong?

One thing I don't see happening very often is defenders following my striker. He doesn't create the space for anyone to exploit and rarely finds himself in space. I either use CF or DLF with roaming (I've also tried without roaming) but nothing seems to be able to shift defences around. Which is why I'm playing the AML as a winger to try a full back wide to create space for the CM(A) but all my winger does is sit narrow and goes in search of the opposition full back instead of trying to shift him wide. My players seem to just go and stand next to an opposition player instead of proactively finding space. 

On the dribbling front I'be removed Dribble Less. I see your point and I'll add the specific PIs instead.

With mentality, I change that from game to game and depending on the situation I'm in. I usually start with Balanced and assess risk appetite in the first 10-15 minutes. If they are there for the taking, I'll up it to Positive and conversely, if I'm under a bit of pressure from the start, I'll usually sit a bit deeper and adjust roles to compensate for lower mentality.

[alanfishead]

I've played a 3 more games and nothing seems to be working. I kept the midfield as support duties to offer more outlets for recycling possession. I tried to play wider to stretch the defence horizontally and added back in the CM(A). I've tried to create more vertical space with a deeper defensive line and a standard line of engagement (and other variants of this). I messed about with roles a little bit but not much. For example used a WB(A) behind the IF(S) to create more width and occupy the fullback however, this just resulted in the opposition winger coming back to mark the WB and the fullback marking the IF. I then added a MEZ(A)/CM(A) on that side to create overloads as my AMR has "switch ball to other flank" trait so I was looking to open up the left flank. but as my winger just likes to stand next to the other fullback, it didn't work either. All that seems to happen is the opposition just mark everyone and completely sacrifice their outball. Just played 17th placed, newly promoted Norwich and lost 1-0. They had 2 shots on target and scored from 30 yards 

 

Beginning to get far too frustrated at this game! 

 

[Experienced Defender]

After I analyzed all the players whose screenshots you posted, I got an idea of how they could be best utilized tactically. This is just one possible version of the tactic, based on your preferred 4141dm wide formation:

Roles and duties:

DLFat

Wat                             IFsu

MEZsu    DLPsu

HB

FBsu     CDde   CDde     WBsu

SKde

Players and player instructions:

GK/SKde - Strakosha - take fewer risks

DL/FBsu - Lato - sit narrower

DR/WBsu - Vagnoman - cross from byline

DCL/CDde - Keane - stay wider, take fewer risks, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Stark - take fewer risks, less urgent pressing

DMC/HB - Carvalho - mark tighter, less urgent pressing, more direct passing

MCL/MEZsu - Horta or Melegoni - mark tighter, more urgent pressing

MCR/DLPsu - Zaniolo or Winks - mark tighter

AML/Wat - Kangin - roam from position

AMR/IFsu - Tsygankov - sit narrower

ST/DLFat - Pinamonti or Eggestein - roam from position, more urgent pressing

Note that I swapped around Horta/Melegoni and Zaniolo/Winks position-wise compared to your original tactic. Seemingly a trivial tweak, but could in fact have a decisive impact 

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - play out of defence, be more expressive, work ball into box, whipped crosses, overlap right

In transition - counter-attack, roll it out, distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher d-line, higher LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

That's it regarding this version of the possible tactic. You can now test it and see how - and if - it works, but bear in mind that I don't create plug-and-play tactics, so it will likely need tweaking here and there, depending on the opponent you play against and how a particular match is developing. And of course, feel free to ask me any questions you might have (or suggestions).

[alanfishead]

@Experienced Defender Thanks I'll give it a go and see how I get on. I appreciate the work! I don't believe in plug an play tactics as I'd much rather tweak throughout a match if needed. There's a lot more satisfaction that way.

One question though as it seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but why have the DCL staying wider next to a FB who is sitting narrower?

[scratchmonkey]

8 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

One question though as it seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but why have the DCL staying wider next to a FB who is sitting narrower?

IIRC, width modifiers only work when you're in possession, so the FB should be higher up the field than the DCL, so they won't be "holding hands" in the same space despite what the PIs would lead you to believe, instead the FB would be defending the space behind/providing a potential outlet for the MEZ(S) and thus more supporting the central midfield rather than standing out on the touchline.

[alanfishead]

Thanks @scratchmonkey that makes sense. I always thought sit narrowed on a FB just closed the gap between him and DC to protect the channel. 

[Robson 07]

10 hours ago, alanfishead said:

With a lower tempo or shorter passing

 

10 hours ago, alanfishead said:

I'm seeing is my midfielders on the edge of the box being closed down by 2 or 3 defenders and still trying to shoot through them.

And that's what you should expect to see.

Apologies as some of this may sound tough.  I'd say if the expectation for that squad is 7th you have your work cut out.  Eggestein isn't all that and nor is Pinamonti.  Have a closer look at Eggestein.  He is not quick, nothing special in the air and not a lethal finisher.  I like him, he's serviceable but probably a no.2 or support striker.  You even have him on a no.2 striker role,  I doubt he's Premier League deadly as a lone striker.  So how are you going to score?  You are going to struggle for goals.  Your approach seems a bits and pieces to me.  A little bit of wing play on one side but another approach on the other...it doesn't convince me, I'm sorry to provide hard critique.

Edit.  Careful also distributing 'quickly' to centre backs.  Are they ready to receive the ball safely?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, alanfishead said:

One question though as it seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but why have the DCL staying wider next to a FB who is sitting narrower?

Because I inadvertently made a mistake. It should have been the opposite - the DCR to stay wider, not the DCL. Sorry.

[alanfishead]

34 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

 

And that's what you should expect to see.

Apologies as some of this may sound tough.  I'd say if the expectation for that squad is 7th you have your work cut out.  Eggestein isn't all that and nor is Pinamonti.  Have a closer look at Eggestein.  He is not quick, nothing special in the air and not a lethal finisher.  I like him, he's serviceable but probably a no.2 or support striker.  You even have him on a no.2 striker role,  I doubt he's Premier League deadly as a lone striker.  So how are you going to score?  You are going to struggle for goals.  Your approach seems a bits and pieces to me.  A little bit of wing play on one side but another approach on the other...it doesn't convince me, I'm sorry to provide hard critique.

Edit.  Careful also distributing 'quickly' to centre backs.  Are they ready to receive the ball safely?

Don't apologise for a hard critique. However, some constructive advice wouldn't go amiss. All I got was "Sign a better striker", but I don't have a lot of money to spare unfortunately. Some tactical suggestions would be ideal 

 

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because I inadvertently made a mistake. It should have been the opposite - the DCR to stay wider, not the DCL. Sorry.

No worries, after I realised that this is in possession DCR makes more sense to cover for the WB(S)

[Robson 07]

10 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

some constructive advice wouldn't go amiss.

That's fair but not sure if I can help you at this time with Herne style possession football.  Personally I'd be really tempted to go 442 and play Lewis as poacher off Pinamonti as a more target style striker.  That would be direct football, higher tempo with wingers, a bit old fashioned, mainly on attack mentality with counterattack enabled.  Carvalho a defend duty mid next to someone like Tousart getting about as either box to box or ball winner support.

Unfortunately for us both it is nothing like how you are trying to play.  But to me, admittedly a distant onlooker it would be my pragmatic take on that squad and your situation. 

[alanfishead]

1 minute ago, Robson 07 said:

That's fair but not sure if I can help you at this time with Herne style possession football.  Personally I'd be really tempted to go 442 and play Lewis as poacher off Pinamonti as a more target style striker.  That would be direct football, higher tempo with wingers, a bit old fashioned, mainly on attack mentality with counterattack enabled.  Carvalho a defend duty mid next to someone like Tousart getting about as either box to box or ball winner support.

Unfortunately for us both it is nothing like how you are trying to play.  But to me, admittedly a distant onlooker it would be my pragmatic take on that squad and your situation. 

Thanks and to be fair I'd been messing about with a 442 last season because I could get more out of having two strikers. Defensively a nightmare though! 

[Robson 07]

4 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

Defensively a nightmare though! 

A different game for sure.  Maybe more goals both ends.  I think you only need fullbacks on support; centre back can be no-nonsense to play longer passes down the wings and not get caught in possession.   Stick in an offside trap.  From my own experience it's not disastrous.

[alanfishead]

15 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

A different game for sure.  Maybe more goals both ends.  I think you only need fullbacks on support; centre back can be no-nonsense to play longer passes down the wings and not get caught in possession.   Stick in an offside trap.  From my own experience it's not disastrous.

Yeah i like to be solid defensively and can't quite get that with a 442. Not when I try it anyway! And I like creative midfielders which I have. You're right though, need to shell out on a good striker to lead the line by himself 

[pats]

- What's the theme in this year's FM? Strong defenses which quickly retreat into a deep, low block so it becomes hard to break down and play through the middle.

- So, how do you break them down then? You stretch them horizontally and vertically. You need to invite them, you need them to come out of their shell.

- How do you stretch them horizontally? Obviously by using more width in attack. You either do this either by 'play wider' TI or if you don't want too much space between your players, you need to get a free man (FB/WB or W or IF) out wide. 

- How do you stretch them vertically? You need to have 3-5 players back building the play. This will draw the opposing team onto you as they can not ignore your defenders and defensive midfielders passing the ball around otherwise a measured direct ball will surely find one of your attacker in space. On the other end of the field, you need at least 1-2 attack duties so someone is always willing to make runs beyond the defenses. If you have too many support duties against deep, tight defenses, who will score those lovely tap-ins and will get on the end of those low ground crosses like Man City do? Man City IRL almost always attack with 5 players. Look at their goals. They always have 4-5, sometimes 6 players in the box attacking. They sure play short passing but they always have 4-5 players back to immediately counter press, win the ball back and recycle if their attacks break down.

- If you are using 'Short passing' TI, don't shorten it further for your defenders by ticking 'Play out of defenses'. Every good team IRL has their defenders passing direct if they see a good opportunity once in a while. Look at Mane's first goal against Bayern in the CL. 

- If you feel your players are not playing according to your tactical instructions, don't hesitate to use 'Be more disciplined' TI. It's not a defensive shout, sometimes it can make your team play beautiful attacking football which you won't see even with 'Be more expressive' TI. 

- Don't go too crazy with attacking team mentalities, sometimes a 'Balanced' team mentality is more attacking than the 'Attacking' mentality itself.

- Finally, balance is the key unless you have super human players like Ronaldo, Messi, Virgil Van Dijk in your team.

[Dr.Y]

I am not a natural English speaker. Can you please explain to me what does CCC mean?

[RatedRm]

4 minutes ago, Dr.Y said:

I am not a natural English speaker. Can you please explain to me what does CCC mean?

Clear Cut Chance.

[Dr.Y]

As Pats said, I think it is good idea to put more players forward, especially to occupy the horizontal channel (Distance between CM and CD) and vertical channel of one side (distance between CD and FB) to form overload, this may help to open up space for other teammates. For example, try to set left CM to be Mezzala, and left FB to be IWB attack, combined with left winger or invert winger, this three may draw the defenders to this side, and open space for right winger to explore. I am not sure whether it works, just try and see what happened.

By the way, I always find there are some situations that it is hard for possession football. For example, if the opposite play a high line, high pressing, or tight marking, it sometimes not easy to control possession and move the ball forward by short passing. Also, if the opposite play similar short passing, possession football, it may also hard to keep high possession. So maybe for these particular conditions, you may consider to play another kind of football, that is what I did.

[alanfishead]

50 minutes ago, Dr.Y said:

By the way, I always find there are some situations that it is hard for possession football. For example, if the opposite play a high line, high pressing, or tight marking, it sometimes not easy to control possession and move the ball forward by short passing. Also, if the opposite play similar short passing, possession football, it may also hard to keep high possession. So maybe for these particular conditions, you may consider to play another kind of football, that is what I did.

This is becoming apparent the more matches I watch in full. Using the suggestion from @Experienced Defender (with a few small tweaks) I've started playing a little more expensive football and using a possession style to control the game at certain points. For example, if I'm 1-0 after 30 minutes, I'll keep the ball a little more to get to half time. I've only played a couple of games like this and I'm still a little blunt in attack as I've won both games 1-0 but defensively I'm controlling the game now which has helped me hugely in terms of understanding the game better.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, alanfishead said:

Using the suggestion from @Experienced Defender (with a few small tweaks) I've started playing a little more expensive football and using a possession style to control the game at certain points. For example, if I'm 1-0 after 30 minutes, I'll keep the ball a little more to get to half time. I've only played a couple of games like this and I'm still a little blunt in attack as I've won both games 1-0 but defensively I'm controlling the game now which has helped me hugely in terms of understanding the game better.

I am not surprised that your defensive performance has improved following my suggestion(s), because all "my" teams are pretty strong when it comes to defending. Regardless of what my primary style is, being tight at the back is always my first priority. I am glad that you watch your matches and tweak the tactic accordingly, because that's the best way to understand the game and eventually create a tactic that suits your preferred style of football entirely by yourself 

[pats]

18 hours ago, Dr.Y said:

By the way, I always find there are some situations that it is hard for possession football. For example, if the opposite play a high line, high pressing, or tight marking, it sometimes not easy to control possession and move the ball forward by short passing. Also, if the opposite play similar short passing, possession football, it may also hard to keep high possession. So maybe for these particular conditions, you may consider to play another kind of football, that is what I did.

And this is how it should be. If the opposition doesn't want you to control the possession, you should be flexible enough to change your style sometimes. If they are playing high line, murder them with balls over the top. Just add 'pass into space' shout and change roles to allow your players to attack the space. The opposition will then drop deep which will allow you to play your possession football. This is how you make other teams play on your terms. This is why Bayern at home IRL was scared to death against Liverpool. Their back four dropped deep every time Liverpool had the ball. It was only because of brilliant individual skill from Mane, were Liverpool able to take the lead. No premier league team IRL plays high line against Man City because Man City are flexible enough to murder you with pace and through balls from deep.

People playing FM need to understand that sometimes you need to adapt. 'Plug and play' tactics do not work in FM anymore. AI has evolved.

[Overmars]

Your one striker in a one striker formation needs to be high quality. At the very least, if you are playing a probing, possession game, he should be great moving off the ball. Your striker is pretty ordinary, and his off the ball movement isn't good enough. I think you need a new striker or a new plan because scoring from probing play requires great vision, off the ball, anticipation, etc., and you don't really have it right now.

Your AML and AMR are good dribblers, so I would remove the dribble less shout. I would switch the FB(s) to a WB(s) role to encourage more attacking play. I would also tell my players to roam from position in order to create some fluidity within the formation, which will aid in keeping possession while occasionally opening up an angle for attack.

The tactic itself isn't bad by any stretch, but it's tough to expect title contention with that squad.