How to make supporting AM play like supporting AM?

[right_winger]

Dear tactical gods, please enlighten me and relieve from my misery...

I'm managing Poland and trying to make best use of three good forwards at my disposal which means I want to give Lewandowski a more creative role behind more advanced striker in my 4231 wide system. Unfortunately either as AMs or APs he doesn't do what he's supposed to positionally as he goes back really deep. It's strange as with the APs role it clearly contradicts the in-game description (and common sense). It says he operates between opp midfield and defence while actually he's closer to being between their midfield and forwards, quite often he comes back near my penalty area to get the ball despite a DLP also present! Even if I play against a system without a DM it's no different so I don't think he's looking for space. He behaves like Regista in AM position. His movement and positioning is better on attack duty but that has other downsides so trying to avoid it.

The same problem happens with other players in this spot but none of them have individual traits or poor attributes to encourage this kind of behaviour, I just don't get it.

I don't want him to play Second Striker (less creative) or Enganche (too static) and Treq role made it worse.

Some of the things I tried that didn't work:
- PI Get further forward
- PI Roam from position on/off
- PI Mark specific position DM (not player!) hoping it would get him to the intended position sooner after we get the possession 
- various roles for my striker (usually TM, PF or AF) thinking it might affect AM's behaviour but no
- switching to Striker on support + AM on attack doesn't seem to create much and they get too close to each other far too often without causing any threat
- Lewy does much better as CFa but then the AM is still quite far apart so I think goals from that were more due to Lewy's individual quality rather than teamwork and support from others. 

Anything else I should test before kicking a fuss about a possible bug? I've got my last game save where it's easily seen for most of the time so I can upload it if someone is happy to check it out.

[CARRERA]

Did you try lewy as P / PFa? 

[right_winger]

PF I think I did, but he's best as CF or DLF. P would be a waste for such an all round forward. And playing Lewy upfront won't solve the issue as whoever is the AM will still drop back too deep and too often.

[CARRERA]

Well CF being more complex doesnt mean per se, that i will perform better. What im basicly try to say is that if you want your AM to supply your striker properly you need a striker who brings himself into scoring position with a high priority. Lewy does suit every striker role but CF has a lot of freedom and his main focus might not always be to be in a scoring position. 

In terms of your AM, bot AM(s) / AP(s) will drop deep as Support duties tend to relatively quickly transit into either defense or offense. If you want a later transition into defense, chose Attack duty.

[right_winger]

16 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Well CF being more complex doesnt mean per se, that i will perform better. What im basicly try to say is that if you want your AM to supply your striker properly you need a striker who brings himself into scoring position with a high priority. Lewy does suit every striker role but CF has a lot of freedom and his main focus might not always be to be in a scoring position. 

That's why I want Lewy to be the AM and another less creative striker upfront (Piatek or Milik usually). The other way round it doesn't work, the supply is not there so have to rely on Lewy's brilliance and hope for good moves from the wings. Hence the aim is: someone else scorer + Lewy creator (who can also score) behind him.

 

20 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

In terms of your AM, bot AM(s) / AP(s) will drop deep as Support duties tend to relatively quickly transit into either defense or offense. If you want a later transition into defense, chose Attack duty.

I noticed the AM/AP is closer to where I want him on attack duty but the downsides are: 1) he doesn't contribute enough in defending phases which can be crucial against 442 or good teams with a DM, 2) means two attack duties too close to each other with ST on attack or bumping into ST on support.

I think what I'm looking for is an AM that drops back when we defend to put some pressure on opp MC's or DM but when we attack he moves forward between opp MC's and CB's where he asks for the ball to create something or score himself. At the moment what I see is more or less the opposite.

[CARRERA]

3 minutes ago, right_winger said:

I think what I'm looking for is an AM that drops back when we defend to put some pressure on opp MC's or DM but when we attack he moves forward between opp MC's and CB's where he asks for the ball to create something or score himself. At the moment what I see is more or less the opposite.

Try PI "Get further forward" it should help to get that player faster forward if your team hast the ball.

4 minutes ago, right_winger said:

hat's why I want Lewy to be the AM

Not sure tbh if worth putting such an exceptional Striker on AM spot. Why not just go for a 442 with lewy as a more free striker and the other guy as poacher or advanced forward

[right_winger]

Thanks for all your input Carrera, much appreciated.

As I mentioned in the first post, I tried that PI but without success.

Valid question re 442 but I have a few reasons why not, for example:
I'm trying to recreate the system used succesfully by Poland in recent years
My wings are more suited to using AML/R rather than ML/R
I used it in another save for so long that now I simply want to try something else
When I actually used it once or twice I was overrun in midfield even by weaker sides

[yonko]

Why don't you play with 2 STCs? Lewa as DLP-S/F9 and Piatek as AF-A. Doesn't Lewa have "comes deep to get ball" trait? As AMC this will always drop him too deep. Try playing him as AM-A or even SS-A.

[summatsupeer]

Quote

It's strange as with the APs role it clearly contradicts the in-game description (and common sense). It says he operates between opp midfield and defence while actually he's closer to being between their midfield and forwards, quite often he comes back near my penalty area to get the ball despite a DLP also present!

The description is describing his positioning in the final third, though it doesn't state that.  During transitioning out of defence or into attack as a playmaker and especially on support duty he will be expected to drop and help the transition.

Quote

I don't want him to play Second Striker (less creative) or Enganche (too static) and Treq role made it worse.

If you want him to stay high during transitions he's better off as a support duty forward so he won't drop so deep. 

2 hours ago, right_winger said:

Unfortunately either as AMs or APs he doesn't do what he's supposed to positionally as he goes back really deep.

What do you want him to do during each phase?  It sounds like you want him to always be in the AMC area, but then you say Enganche is too static so not sure what you want?  AM-Su should be less static but not move around so much compared to AP-Su. 

[right_winger]

10 minutes ago, yonko said:

Why don't you play with 2 STCs? Lewa as DLP-S/F9 and Piatek as AF-A.

Explained in my response to Carrera earlier although I might give it a go again eventually.

12 minutes ago, yonko said:

Doesn't Lewa have "comes deep to get ball" trait?

No. Only "plays one-twos" and "likes to lob keepers".

And he's nicknamed LEWY... Lewa could only be a girl's nickname in Polish

 

11 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

The description is describing his positioning in the final third, though it doesn't state that.  During transitioning out of defence or into attack as a playmaker and especially on support duty he will be expected to drop and help the transition.

Every day is a lesson... thanks for clarifying this and for your other points! It means I expected from that position/role something that I shouldn't have.

Regarding the Enganche role, it won't give the horizontal movement that I also want. But anyway I had based my assumptions on previous FMs where Enganche had attack duty, I also thought it couldn't have "Get further forward" added while it now actually can. My bad for missing it without closer look. In FM19 this role might be closest to what I want so will probably experiment with it a bit and if I'm not satisfied then will revert to 442... although reluctantly

[summatsupeer]

44 minutes ago, right_winger said:

Every day is a lesson... thanks for clarifying this and for your other points! It means I expected from that position/role something that I shouldn't have.

 Regarding the Enganche role, it won't give the horizontal movement that I also want. But anyway I had based my assumptions on previous FMs where Enganche had attack duty, I also thought it couldn't have "Get further forward" added while it now actually can. My bad for missing it without closer look. In FM19 this role might be closest to what I want so will probably experiment with it a bit and if I'm not satisfied then will revert to 442... although reluctantly

No problem, the descriptions could be better but would be a bit too long to describe what the roles + duties do in every phase.

Sounds like you want Moves Into Channel movement rather than Forward Runs?  Horizontal to me means moving from AMC to AMCL / AMCR type areas whist Forward Runs are vertical.

[right_winger]

I thought Move into Channels means vertical but only between FB and CB? That's how I understand it from watching the clip focusing on it by @Rashidi

EDIT: Disregard that, I think I see what you mean now, but also tried it and didn't work. I think it's because most of the PI were tested with AM or AP on support so now I have to experiment with a bit more knowledge and a fresh approach thanks to feedback in this topic.

[CARRERA]

6 minutes ago, right_winger said:

I thought Move into Channels means vertical but only between FB and CB? That's how I understand it from watching the clip focusing on it by @Rashidi

Channles are the "half spaces" between a central and a wide player. 

[Experienced Defender]

All this is highly speculative unless you post a screenshot of your tactic, so that we can see the whole context. You can give a player the "most suitable" possible role (and even PIs), but that means nothing if the rest of the system is set up wrongly or illogically. Also bear in mind that a 4231 as such is a tricky system, meaning you need a good level of tactical knowledge to set it up successfully.

[s1111]

Why would you play one of the world's best strikers and by far your best player in midfield? An AM on support is very much a midfielder and playmaker roles go looking for the ball which means they will drop even deeper. Sorry but basic common sense says play him as a support striker where he will play between midfield and the other striker and stop trying to force something to work that isn't intended.