Combining PPM with contradicting roles/duties

[gam945]

Let's say I play in a 4-4-2, with one of the 2 strikers playing like a creator and coming deep. Even with this extra man in the hole between mildfield and attack, I will lack a man in mildfield against 3-man mildfield formations such as 4-3-3/4-1-4-1. Therefore, I want to focus on my 2-man mildfield in this post. Let's suppose that the players are good all rounders (good defensive attributes, good decisions,anticipation,off the ball, positionning, etc) to not complicate things.

I want one man in the mildfield to be a playmaker from deep, roaming to get the ball and organizing the play, and he would also be the man that stays back, stopping attacks by being in good defensive positions. The other man would be the guy that primarly defends, but is able to go forward intelligently. Kind of a Ancelotti-Rikjaard or maybe also a Albertini-Desailly partnership. The first guy would be also perfectly depicted by De Jong in a double pivot.

My main concern is the first guy. If I give him a RPMsu role, but I teach him the PPM "Stays back" that contradicts the roaming part, would this basically mean that the player can roam all he wants when we are in the building phase and we have the ball, but when the opposition has the ball, he is always covering the defense? Basically like a RPM that is limited to our half and that would have a Defend duty?

So that was my question, but I'm aware that the best answer to this is "test it yourself". However, I don't really know how to conduct this sort of experience. Just take a team that has a CM able to play in RPM and has the wanted PPM and stick him in a 4-4-2 with RPM? Do I have to worry about the roles of other players? Do I have to conduct the experience with a created fictionnal player that has 20 on all key attributes for RPM so the attributes don't affect the experience? Other issues I have to be aware of?

If any of you guys have answers for the question or how to conduct the experience, it would be nice to hear -read?- you

Also, if you had any experience succesfully using PPMs with contradicting role/duty (ex:DMde/get forward), feel free to participate!  

[herne79]

I'd suggest before you go experimenting with Traits, experiment with Mentality first.

An RPM (to follow on your example) will be less forward thinking using the Defensive Mentality than if you used the Attacking Mentality.  And each step change in Mentality will create an equivalent step change in the player's outlook.

Obviously Mentality will affect all of your players rather than just your RPM which may or may not be what you are after, however you seem to want a relatively cautious midfield at least and you can always use roles/duties to further influence your other players anyway.

Traits may of course help, however than can be tricky to learn (and take a while to learn anyway) whereas Mentality combined with other roles & duties are instant and may give you what you are after.

[gam945]

@herne79

To sum up my mildfield in one pic i would go with this

I want to be able to recreate a flat 4-4-2 for the defensive shape (that's why I wanted my mildfield bank of 4 on support duties) while having a deep roaming playmaker that I use in building the play, rarely going higher up the pitch like a normal RPM will do. The #6 (first guy) would heavily rely on intelligence (positionning,anticipation) to defend.

But I get your point about mentality, and I will try to experiment the behaviour of the RPM under different mentalities. Would it be optimal to test with a player that has 20 in all key attributes for RPM, so the attribute are less a factor in the experiment?

[herne79]

52 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Would it be optimal to test with a player that has 20 in all key attributes for RPM, so the attribute are less a factor in the experiment?

No because every player will play the same role slightly differently.  If you want to experiment, experiment with the team and players you actually want to play.  That way you'll see how the player you want to use will behave.

I really want to stress here the point that every player plays the same role differently.  Yes each role has a set of defined player instructions which provides the framework for how the role plays, but that's just one half of the puzzle - the other half are the players themselves and it's these two halves when combined which make up the complete picture of that role.

So for example, the RPM has "dribble more" set by default.  But what happens if you use a player in the role that can't dribble?  The RPM is supposed to pick the ball up deep, run with it out of defence into midfield before releasing a pass further up field.  If he can't dribble he runs the risk of losing possession in a very dangerous place.

54 minutes ago, gam945 said:

while having a deep roaming playmaker that I use in building the play, rarely going higher up the pitch like a normal RPM will do

Why not just use a DLP with "hold position"?

Or use the DM rather than CM positions to give you deeper starting positions?

I appreciate I'm taking you away from your initial question regarding Traits (sorry!), I'm just exploring other potential options which may(?) suit what you are trying to achieve.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

I'd suggest before you go experimenting with Traits, experiment with Mentality first.

An RPM (to follow on your example) will be less forward thinking using the Defensive Mentality than if you used the Attacking Mentality.  And each step change in Mentality will create an equivalent step change in the player's outlook.

Obviously Mentality will affect all of your players rather than just your RPM which may or may not be what you are after, however you seem to want a relatively cautious midfield at least and you can always use roles/duties to further influence your other players anyway.

Traits may of course help, however than can be tricky to learn (and take a while to learn anyway) whereas Mentality combined with other roles & duties are instant and may give you what you are after.

When I go with a lower risk mentality, I often find deeper players eventually ending really high up the pitch. 
The slower tempo that comes with lower end mentality gives them time to advance up the pitch, if the roles / duties are set up so they allow for the build up play to last long enough (i.e. there are no aggressive roles and too much attacking duties).

I'm currently playing with a Sacchi inspired 442 (there's a great thread by Herne and Jumbo from 2015, you should read it if you're interested in Ancelotti-Rijkaard partnership).

he DLP(d) for the Ancelotti role and BBM(s) for Rijkaard work best with my players.
If I'm against a better team, I use a CM(d) for Ancelotti role - this makes him more aggressive in defence without limiting his passing range too much when in possession (as the BWM(d) role would). The RPM(s) never worked for me; him attracting the ball makes my play focused too much around him.

[gam945]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

No because every player will play the same role slightly differently.  If you want to experiment, experiment with the team and players you actually want to play.  That way you'll see how the player you want to use will behave.

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Why not just use a DLP with "hold position"?

Or use the DM rather than CM positions to give you deeper starting positions?

Been using recently a DLPde - CMsu(Hold Position) partnership, felt it was no more than correct, but my DLP doesn't do this movement to be always available for a pass in the building phase. I already used a RPM in another formation and it was a joy to see all the movements.

I've been thinking of it, but wanted to really have the two banks of 4. Will experiment however it's not my preffered option.

2 hours ago, charisma_charisma said:

I'm currently playing with a Sacchi inspired 442 (there's a great thread by Herne and Jumbo from 2015, you should read it if you're interested in Ancelotti-Rijkaard partnership).

Really don't know how I missed this thread lol, already read the one of Ozil, but never seen this one. Interesting that in the first post @herne79 talks about a RPM-CMsu for the formation also.