Advice on developing a play style

[mc22]

Hi everyone, I started a new game unemployed with the goal of developing a tactic from the bottom up somewhere. Im fascinated by the lighting quick attacking of  the Mourinho era of madrid especially the types of goals with are just low crosses to back post as seen here: 

While I have been hired by 1 FC Nurnberg and Im fully aware that I cant be expecting to have that style of play with those players there, Im currently not even able to get any sort of results with what im using now which I've adapted from an old tactic I used from FM16 based off of mourinho. https://www.fmscout.com/a-mourinho-fm16-tactics-real-madrid-2011-12.html I used this a baseline since it worked well a few years ago but no luck this year since attacking wingers are absolutely useless no matter what team ive used.

Hoping to build this team slowly into rapid attacking unit over the years.

4231 wide

GKd

WBs, CD, CD, WBs

DLP support, BWM d

Winger attack, attacking midfielder support, Winger attack,

Complete forward attack or Pressing forward attack (since Nurnberg has loads of natural pressing forwards).

I've mainly been using balanced mentality and only use much higher tempo, pass into space, low crosses, counter, and lower line of engagement and lower defensive line. 

This is probably a stupid question, but is the lack of results due to lack of pacey skilled players like I'm assuming the issue is, or is it impossible to score because of FM19 not allowing any crosses to ever make it past the first defender. 

Any advice would be great

 

 

[Piperita]

I'll be back on my PC in around three hours to have a look at their players in more details. Right now I am using an online database for reference.

From what I remember though, both in game and from my clenched behind in real life, Misidjan can be a key factor. Decent passing and finishing, good movement and looooots of flair!

37 minutes ago, mc22 said:

This is probably a stupid question, but is the lack of results due to lack of pacey skilled players like I'm assuming the issue is

While Nürnberg unfortunately has not gotten the best speed in game and are generally a relegation-candidate, they have a nice balance between speed, movement, and bulk. It may not be suited for tanking yourself through, for running the pitch up and down, or for finding every empty space, but you are adept enough at all three to switch between approaches. Which is absolutely vital because Nürnberg is too much an underdog to dictate games on their terms! It also allows you to, with time, build up double- or triple-threats for a more versatile approach. 

Quote

or is it impossible to score because of FM19 not allowing any crosses to ever make it past the first defender

Interestingly, right now I think crosses are vastly overpowered if they have a proper recipient. A meat castle or someone with movement (off the ball, acceleration, decisions), or even better both completely breaks defenses!

[mc22]

Yeah I honestly think some of the speed and passing is letting me down, were not really able to beat people into space and if we do alot of cross field passes go out of bounds. You're right about Misidjan, using him on the left, with Matheus Pereira on the right and brought in Xadas on loan to play the AMC role and in the two games hes played in it so far hes scores a nice long screamer already, but then got hurt. Bummer cause he fit that role perfectly with his traits. 

Interesting about the crossing though, I've found that whenever I use any wingers in the AMR or AML role no matter the tactic or team I'm playing as crosses barely beat the first defender. I've seen alot of complaints on this forum and elsewhere about this issue too. 

When I get home later I can post a screenshot of my starting 11 so far too.

[Piperita]

A screenshot would be nice! I started a pre-season with Nürnberg to test a few things and there is a lot to consider with this team! For me there were two big questions: Who plays as right back? Who is my striker? These two positions are simultaneously too deep *and* too shallow for my tastes and influence a lot of the other roles and positions. 

Sorry if the rest will seem a bit rushed. It is 2am and my Concentration has fallen to a 6. So I'll do the rest in unordered bullet points.

• How much do you want to start with a 4231 and how much do you 'just'  want an attacking variation of it to be the end result? Nürnberg starts as a relegation candidate with half the squad proclaiming you a megalomaniac if you target the relegation playoffs. I found some success playing with deeper wingers in a 4411 (with a tweaked fluid counter pre-set) as a basis against better teams. It is similar to the 4231 and has at least some resemblance to attacking systems. It could be worthwhile considering starting a bit more conservative — for a while it is more survival than beautiful play or philosophy. It would also give you time to properly trait some key players!
• Speaking of: Tomorrow I'll try a 'proper' 4231 and how well the defenders cope! The 4411 completely shut out Sp. Prague, Wolfsburg, Leipzig, and D. Zagreb but was offensively somewhat stale. 
• What I forgot to mention in my first post: Winger(attack) are hyper-aggressive and tend to run narrow off-the-ball, focussing a lot on scoring instead of creating. My Wa in my main file has scored thrice more than assisted and if he does cross, often with plenty of risk attached. Which is why I often tweak Ws to mostly act like Wa unstead of using the real deal unless I really need them! For a team like Nürnberg using this role twice puts a lot of pressure on the backline and somewhat isolates the Striker.
• WBs are also a bit risky on top of these aggressive wingers at this stage. While Leibold may be able to pull it off, your right backs either have bad mentals, no OTB, or can't candle the ball. I decided to use WBau instead which almost is a WBs but without the Get Forward PI that might be just a tad too much for a small team.
• Regarding crosses, I am currently writing my big writeup for my two current tactics. As one of them is lots and lots of hard-to-defend crosses, there'll probably be a good long paragraph or two about how to best utilise them. In short: No overpacing on the flanks, best to have two targets, space and movement. A winger(s) tweaked to be a IWs and Wa hybrid is simply divine!

[mc22]

100% agree, its almost as if they're just a quality striker away from being decent. 

I don't exactly care for the 4231 formation in general, I find its too common in FM especially with inside forwards. But I've spent every other save using a 442 so this career I was hoping to perfect the dual winger 4231, but really just want to end up with the rapid counter attacking style of 11/12 Madrid. Watched a lot of highlights and analysis of that today, and the goal after improving the squad is to have them play out of back a little to draw in the opposition before rapidly attacking into space. Definitely ambitious, maybe I'll get sacked before I reach it but its my mission for this save. I know this general tactic has hope because I've briefly used it on my Everton save and with the squad I've built there I had some beautiful goals. I could try to share a couple later on.

But here is the general formation/tactic I'm using currently. Just lost to Bayern away, but that was to be expected.

I'm finding that most goals conceded are from penalties though, give away far too many. I tried messing around with this formation against Bayern and definitely were most stable when I moved the wingers back to ML and MR but kept them on attack duty. I'm going to experiment setting DL and DR on FB(s) just to make them more stable. 

 

 

[Piperita]

Palacios has some potential. Acceleration, Off the Ball and Decision look well enough to work with and there is room to grow the other stats. Sadly that will need a season or two.

Personally I'd only use Bauer only in a Defensive duty with a more aggressive midfielder in front of him. Outside Marking and Tackling he has little to offer. In comparison Gosen is fast and can grow mid-term and Valentini is a good all-rounder for now 

Our backlines look similar in TIs. I just defended narrower and used WBaus for even more stability. The former might be worth looking into to keep the centre packed. The latter I would not do on the left as the gap between wingers is pretty large and Leibold is plenty of good. I forgot to look into who Samper is, but with him as a holding midfielder the right side needs movement as well. I'd either switch Bauer to another defender with better movement or make him act more defensive with a more mobile midfielder on the side (example: Behrens as BBM)

Another thing I'd consider: Switching Misidjan to a support duty and teaching him to cut inside (and later to arrive late). This creates more crosses to the W(a) and cutting inside he uses his strong foot for inswingers and some additional shots. Right now neither of your stars are that involved because they aggressively get involved and try to be targets but with not that much support. 

 

 

[mc22]

Brought in Johannes Eggestein on loan during January. Scored in his debut, but somehow we gave up 3 goals off of corners.  Its definitely more stable for now as a 4411 with the wingers dropped back. Had some decent draws in December with that. 

Samper is a young midfielder I loaned from Barcelona, hes my best passer so far apparently in the DLP support role

Another thought I'm having is maybe try to force the issue and click on counter pressing and ramp up pressing, but keep line at either standard or slightly deeper LOE, just to make us win the ball back faster around the middle of the pitch before attacking space behind them. I will try that when I get home later. 

5 hours ago, Piperita said:

I forgot to look into who Samper is, but with him as a holding midfielder the right side needs movement as well. I'd either switch Bauer to another defender with better movement or make him act more defensive with a more mobile midfielder on the side (example: Behrens as BBM)

I was also considering switching the midfield duo to a DLP on defend and then a BBM, but I really enjoy the BWM role and feel like I want to try to get the best out of it.

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, mc22 said:

With his bravery of only 8, tackling only 10, marking only 9, work rate only 9 and acceleration only 9, I fear that Samper as a CM in a 4231 is more of a liability, and if you want to use him, then better change the formation from 4231 to 4141dm wide. Because he simply is not good enough defensively to be a holding midfielder, which is a must in a 4231.

[mc22]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

With his bravery of only 8, tackling only 10, marking only 9, work rate only 9 and acceleration only 9, I fear that Samper as a CM in a 4231 is more of a liability, and if you want to use him, then better change the formation from 4231 to 4141dm wide. Because he simply is not good enough defensively to be a holding midfielder, which is a must in a 4231.

That's a good point, to be completely honest I kind of jumped into the loan without thinking about it. I didn't decide to try to bring on a certain style of play until a couple months into the season so admittedly  my planning and recruitment could've been better. I am considering cancelling his loan just to make room for the other midfielders we already have with have higher work rate and keep demanding playtime, so I dont want a mutiny on top of my terrible run of form.

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, mc22 said:

That's a good point, to be completely honest I kind of jumped into the loan without thinking about it. I didn't decide to try to bring on a certain style of play until a couple months into the season so admittedly  my planning and recruitment could've been better. I am considering cancelling his loan just to make room for the other midfielders we already have with have higher work rate and keep demanding playtime, so I dont want a mutiny on top of my terrible run of form.

Okay, but even apart from Samper, your tactic has flaws that need to be addressed. What would I do if I wanted to play fast counter-attacking football using a 4231 with wingers (role) on both flanks (assuming I have the right players for the setup):

An example:

PFat

Wat            AMat          Wsu

BBM    CMde

 

FBsu    CDde   CDde   WBsu

SKsu/de

Balanced

- higher tempo, slightly more direct passing, hit early crosses

- counter (and regroup against strong opposition)

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Both CMs - mark tighter (PI)

LB/FBsu - sit narrower, hold position

However, the question still remains if your team is generally good enough to play in a 4231 system.

[kingking]

@mc22

Please don't take any advice that has been posted on this thread lol.

Listen to me.. 

You need 2 play styles

Direct Play against stronger or equal teams that play Possession Play 

Possession Play against stronger or equal teams that play Direct Play

Possession Play against weaker teams that play Direct Play or Possession Play

[mc22]

@kingking

I understand, but I'm tired of possession play being the only way to go in FM, I had success with that on other saves, and on this one my goal is to live and die by rapid counter attacking. I'll add a second style that has more pressing up the field, but I wont do any possession based style.

[mc22]

43 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but even apart from Samper, your tactic has flaws that need to be addressed. What would I do if I wanted to play fast counter-attacking football using a 4231 with wingers (role) on both flanks (assuming I have the right players for the setup):

An example:

PFat

Wat            AMat          Wsu

BBM    CMde

 

FBsu    CDde   CDde   WBsu

SKsu/de

Balanced

- higher tempo, slightly more direct passing, hit early crosses

- counter (and regroup against strong opposition)

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Both CMs - mark tighter (PI)

LB/FBsu - sit narrower, hold position

However, the question still remains if your team is generally good enough to play in a 4231 system.

This actually looks really reasonable, I'll give this a try. Honestly one of my favorite AMC/Striker combos is when they are both on attack so this looks good. Odds are my team just isnt good enough but we will see how it goes.

[Experienced Defender]

39 minutes ago, mc22 said:

Odds are my team just isnt good enough but we will see how it goes.

In that case, the good news is that this type of counter-attacking football can be relatively easily adapted to a 4141dm wide (i.e. 4123).

[mc22]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In that case, the good news is that this type of counter-attacking football can be relatively easily adapted to a 4141dm wide (i.e. 4123).

I'll give it a go, my main priority is maintaining the main principles of the style of play i want to develop. I never said I expect to perfect it this first season, especially with a bottom of the league Nurnberg, I'd be a fool and a coward if I expected to turn them into Real Madrid 11/12 in just one season, I just want to work towards a side with the following traits:

• High workrate 
• low crossing 
• passing into space
• pacey wingers (not inside forwards) leading the attack

Few goals bring me as much joy in real life and FM as when one winger rushes down to byline and pings in a cross to someone making a run to the back post to tap in. 

[mc22]

Update: I've gone back to my other save with Everton, and tried a couple more matches my original tactic, one against Man U and one against Liverpool. Had some beautiful goals in both, lost Man U away ( my own fault for some poor in game adjustments), but was smarter about it against Liverpool and got the 2-1 win. Trying to figure out how to share a highlight of the goal, but this really brings me back to my original thinking that while its probably a very imbalanced and risky tactic to use, my issues are stemming from using it at a bottom of the league side instead of a top title contender full of great players that are able to carry out what I want. 

I guess the question this leads me to is whether it's worth risking short term results to slowly try to build up a side that can play how I want OR adjust my philosophy to the level of players I have, which is guess is really the root of all management, IE Louis Van Gaal (set in stone philosophy) vs Ancelloti (adapts to players). I definitely think this just made me more committed to making this style of play work whether I get sacked at Nurnberg or not, and might honestly be more inspired for this save than I have been on any of my previous ones in fm19. 

Also if anyone has a link where it explains how to be able to share gifs or videos of goals would be awesome.

[mc22]

Further update:

Resigned from Nurnberg in February, I got absolutely sickened by throwing away 3 games in a row after finally holding leads. Interviewed with Lazio and other teams while holding out for Sporting since I wanted to try out managing in portugal for once. 

Turned down Lazio and applied for Fenerbache, and got the job. Bringing my philosophy to Turkey. 

First thing I did was sign Besic, and Xadas as soon as his loan was up at Nurnberg, he was the only player that performed under me and I was teaching him some preferred moves that suit my style of play. Then signed Kenedy, Under, Ambraham, and Pellegri when I saw all 4 of them were listed for loan and got them all on 2 year loans. Finally got some pace and skill out wide and up top unlike at Nurnberg. 

THis is what my new team is looking like and to start the season we beat Galatasaray in the supercup 2-0 in a very solid performance

Stoked to see how bringing this tactic to Turkey works out, now that I'm finally starting with a team that has more skill.

[Robson 07]

The overlap instruction will make your wingers hold the ball up and wait for support.  Is that your intention?  It looks like you'll end up with 2 players on each flank wanting to put crosses into the box for a lone striker.  The tactic doesn't really address the half spaces at either end of the pitch.  Think this system leaves room for improvement.

 

[mc22]

15 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

The overlap instruction will make your wingers hold the ball up and wait for support.  Is that your intention?  It looks like you'll end up with 2 players on each flank wanting to put crosses into the box for a lone striker.  The tactic doesn't really address the half spaces at either end of the pitch.  Think this system leaves room for improvement.

 

Youre right about the Overlap, I've actually taken it off since, and only use it when I have a lead just to keep hold of the ball a bit more. So this second season on the new team I've been getting much better results with it overall, and am really enjoying it so far. Any suggestions for the half spaces?

[Strikerir]

On 08/08/2019 at 19:24, mc22 said:

Hi everyone, I started a new game unemployed with the goal of developing a tactic from the bottom up somewhere. Im fascinated by the lighting quick attacking of  the Mourinho era of madrid especially the types of goals with are just low crosses to back post as seen here: 

While I have been hired by 1 FC Nurnberg and Im fully aware that I cant be expecting to have that style of play with those players there, Im currently not even able to get any sort of results with what im using now which I've adapted from an old tactic I used from FM16 based off of mourinho. https://www.fmscout.com/a-mourinho-fm16-tactics-real-madrid-2011-12.html I used this a baseline since it worked well a few years ago but no luck this year since attacking wingers are absolutely useless no matter what team ive used.

Hoping to build this team slowly into rapid attacking unit over the years.

4231 wide

GKd

WBs, CD, CD, WBs

DLP support, BWM d

Winger attack, attacking midfielder support, Winger attack,

Complete forward attack or Pressing forward attack (since Nurnberg has loads of natural pressing forwards).

I've mainly been using balanced mentality and only use much higher tempo, pass into space, low crosses, counter, and lower line of engagement and lower defensive line. 

This is probably a stupid question, but is the lack of results due to lack of pacey skilled players like I'm assuming the issue is, or is it impossible to score because of FM19 not allowing any crosses to ever make it past the first defender. 

Any advice would be great

 

 

Bro i absolutely share that obsession ive watch that video soo many times i fuc**** love counter attacks and mourinho i wish i could make a tactic like that :c

[mc22]

1 hour ago, Strikerir said:

Bro i absolutely share that obsession ive watch that video soo many times i fuc**** love counter attacks and mourinho i wish i could make a tactic like that :c

Finally someone shares my thoughts on this, its really the perfect style of play. It's probably unreasonable to expect recreating it in FM, since that team was just on another level with the players they had, but so far I'm having a lot of fun trying to work up to it at least trying to get to some similar style.

[Robson 07]

On 13/08/2019 at 17:43, mc22 said:

Any suggestions for the half spaces?

I think you've done the right thing basically holding or locking the central mids down.  In this formation it's very risky to have them bombing fwd.  I get why you're using wingers cause of counter style and not overloading the centre where you have an AMC.....but I think at least one wide man could be cutting inside and exploiting the space between full back and centre back.

I used to think more wingers in a 4231 and inside fwds in a 4141 but nowadays I challenge that observation quite a bit.  A 4141 has that deeper mid allowing one central mid to surge fwd.  This is not possible in a 4231.

[mc22]

19 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

I think you've done the right thing basically holding or locking the central mids down.  In this formation it's very risky to have them bombing fwd.  I get why you're using wingers cause of counter style and not overloading the centre where you have an AMC.....but I think at least one wide man could be cutting inside and exploiting the space between full back and centre back.

I used to think more wingers in a 4231 and inside fwds in a 4141 but nowadays I challenge that observation quite a bit.  A 4141 has that deeper mid allowing one central mid to surge fwd.  This is not possible in a 4231.

I think both those wingers have the PPM move to cut inside which helps also. I might try to fiddle with the midfield roles and change the DLP to a RPM or a box to box mid just to have him adding another body further up but I'll see. 

I made a verstion of this where I drop the BWM into the DMC position and move the AMC into midfield as a box to box next to the DLP for a more solid trio and its worked decently as well. 

[Trigger94]

Not sure if any of this is going to help, since it comes from the old versions of FM and old game engine, but i use them even today (FM 12), I tried to replicate Mou system with the help of one article on FM19 ( https://dictatethegame.com/2019/08/01/jose-mourinhos-inter-tactics-tested-fm19/ )but with limited success, but it is nice to find more people that like his approach to the game, and are really trying to replicate it  

The old FM tactics links : 

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/98479-*mourinhos-legendary-4231*12-2-2*cl-copa-win-betis-3rd-season*.html - works nice with low tier teams on fm 12 at least

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/88521-jose-mourinhos-real-madrid-2011-jibbers.html - for Real Madrid 

I hope that his playing style can somewhat be recreated

 

 

[mc22]

On 17/08/2019 at 06:36, Trigger94 said:

Not sure if any of this is going to help, since it comes from the old versions of FM and old game engine, but i use them even today (FM 12), I tried to replicate Mou system with the help of one article on FM19 ( https://dictatethegame.com/2019/08/01/jose-mourinhos-inter-tactics-tested-fm19/ )but with limited success, but it is nice to find more people that like his approach to the game, and are really trying to replicate it  

The old FM tactics links : 

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/98479-*mourinhos-legendary-4231*12-2-2*cl-copa-win-betis-3rd-season*.html - works nice with low tier teams on fm 12 at least

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/88521-jose-mourinhos-real-madrid-2011-jibbers.html - for Real Madrid 

I hope that his playing style can somewhat be recreated

 

 

I feel like this is the first year where trying to use tactics from previous years has totally failed me. As I listed in my original post there was one from FM16 which while it wasn't perfect, it was probably the most fun tactic I've used in most of the recent years. These are interesting to look at though just to get some ideas, I've seen the one from Dictate the Game, but just feel like their tactics arent that good.