Moving from a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1

[BigV]

I'll give a bit of a background. I'm currently managing Manchester United and through my first season I used 4-3-3 due to the small squad size but now i've got a "team" or at least my own where I want to work towards the traditional use of 4-2-3-1. 

This is the team and as you can see it's fairly good and i've won the league unbeaten. I swapped using 433 to 4231 around january so some stats are missleading especially pogba's. 

                          

There's my tactics. I'm having a hard time trying to get the CAM to work and the strikers. Lukaku and Rashford with a CAM score less and are much more like shadows that only show up when opposition make mistakes (ignore the players on the scrn shot). I'm also having a hard time making pogba work in a 4231. I've tried using him as different roles and tried moving him up to CAM and he doesn't do great as in a 433 because he was the focal point which im trying to make with him at CAM. The CM roles usually are a DLP-S and a BBM. CAM I usually switch depending on the player so if it was mata when AP (mata comes really deep to get the ball cause of his trait and it's annoying as it creates a 3 man mid leaving the CAM space open and free).

The run at defence helps the dribbling which I use quite a lot as I have pacey wide players (thauvin on right) and martial who seems to be balling with that TI on (tried without it and he fails to make dribbles per game). 

What role/PI's would you suggest I use for CAM and the Striker? AF for rashford works sometimes but im not 100% that's the role to make him score goals week in and week out. I want a role where he gets beyond the defensive line with his pace (would I need to change the directness of passing to make this work? but wouldnt that also mean he needs to be good in the air if it's direct TO him rather than infront?) 

Sancho RW as a winger, and fabio silva to replace lukaku as he's becoming a liability and just a terrible plan B that needs rid so likes of fabio and greenwood to blossom. I also want to be playing the ball on the deck most of the time rather than long balling. 

[Experienced Defender]

35 minutes ago, BigV said:

    

There's my tactics. I'm having a hard time trying to get the CAM to work and the strikers

In my humble opinion, this tactic looks very unsound. I am also managing Utd, though not in a 4231 system. But even if I played in a 4231, I would probably never use Pogba as a CM in such a formation, because his defensive attributes are simply not good enough (which is of vital importance for any player playing in a CM position in 4231). In a system like 4123 (or my narrow 442 diamond), he can play in a CM spot, and I play him as a mezzala on support (and sometimes, albeit rarely, on attack duty). However, in a 4231, I would play Pogba only in the AMC, most likely as a standard AM on attack duty (and I actually sometimes play him in this role in my narrow diamond).

Another problem - and perhaps even bigger than Pogba's position - is that all your 4 front players are on attack duties, which not only tends to isolate them from the rest of the team but can also be defensively risky, especially in a top-heavy system such as 4231 with none in defensive midfield. And this is further exacerbated by the fact that neither of your central mids is played in a holding role, which leaves the defense even more vulnerable. Plus, you play on Attacking mentality, which makes the players pretty much attack-minded by default. Add to this that your both fullbacks are used as WBs on support, which means your flanks are also vulnerable, because WBs on support duty also bomb forward most of the time. 

1 hour ago, BigV said:

What role/PI's would you suggest I use for CAM and the Striker? AF for rashford works sometimes but im not 100% that's the role to make him score goals week in and week out. I want a role where he gets beyond the defensive line with his pace (would I need to change the directness of passing to make this work?

It's not just about his personal role, but the tactic as a whole needs to be set up in a proper way. Speaking specifically of Rashford, there are 3 roles that suit him - AF, PF on attack and poacher. Let's assume you decide to play him as a poacher in a 4231. What could be a logical setup of roles and duties? And example:

PO

IFsu                TQ               Wat

DLPde      CAR

 

FBat      CDde    CDde     IWBsu

GK

AML/IFsu - Martial

AMR/Wat - Lingard

AMC/TQ - Mata or Pogba

DLPde - Cook, Ndombele, Gedson or Matic

CAR - again Cook, Ndombele, Gedson or Matic (though his lack of speed could sometimes be a liability)

Then I would go with Positive (rather than Attacking) mentality, as it is still basically attacking, but more measured.

Team instructions could be:

- play out of defence, shorter passing, standard (default) tempo, work ball into box, be more expressive, low or whipped crosses

- counter (and against weak opposition counter-press)

- higher DL, higher or standard LOE, default pressing, offside trap (and either Prevent short GKD or split block*)

* split block is when you ask your 3-4 most advanced players to close down more via their PIs. In this case those 3 would be the striker and both wide forwards (since TQ cannot be told to press more). Optionally, you can also ask them to tackle harder, but be wary of fouls and yellow/red cards.

 

[big daddy]

BIg v your tactic looks a lot like solskjærs against crystal palace, where utd had problems(failed) when pogba and mctominay got closed down.

Both central midfields played like nr 8s  Pogba the aps and Mctominay the bbm and had nobody guarding them (nr 6)

Pogba has a ppm that makes him rush forward too. So that makes him a big liability in cm without a dm.

In a 4231 I can use Pogba as a cm , but only if the other team is parking the bus.

In a 4141 Pogba has room to explore, he can use that space in front of him to  make his ppms work for him,  runs with ball and gets forward.

He is one of the few players in the game that is so good that the am role just gets in his way,

my penny

[BigV]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

nother problem - and perhaps even bigger than Pogba's position - is that all your 4 front players are on attack duties,

I usually use the CAM on support but because both CM's are in that position, the CAM drops way too deep which is why i moved it to Attack. The attacking mid changes depending whom im playing tbh so strong teams support and if we're doing good then move to attack and vice versa against weaker teams. Agreed with the pogba bit and haven't used him in TQ yet so i'll give it a go and see where he's at. Cm's are usually Deep lying- Defend or on support depending on games. BBM is a given because with a CAM he tends to be along side the other CM just slighly pushed up as you would expect and as I have ndombele and gedson i'm stacked with quality both defensively and attacking. I will try carrilo tho and see what other differences occur because the BBM do hit around the 6.6-7.2 range. I have done some analysis, the wingbacks only go forward when the attack when needed, they are defensively sound because they do act like a back 4 when defending as look for overlaps is off (feel like its heavily relied and hinders your attacking players- which saw a resergence to martial, lingard, thauvin and in somes cases gomes). I'll give your formation/tactic a go in pre season and i'll get back to you on how it goes after the signings. Pressing is somewhat off so I will defeintely try the split block and see where it goes because the pressing (even the press always on certain players) never seem to happen often during the highlights. 

2 hours ago, big daddy said:

BIg v your tactic looks a lot like solskjærs against crystal palace, where utd had problems(failed) when pogba and mctominay got closed down.

Both central midfields played like nr 8s  Pogba the aps and Mctominay the bbm and had nobody guarding them (nr 6)

Pogba has a ppm that makes him rush forward too. So that makes him a big liability in cm without a dm.

In a 4231 I can use Pogba as a cm , but only if the other team is parking the bus.

In a 4141 Pogba has room to explore, he can use that space in front of him to  make his ppms work for him,  runs with ball and gets forward.

He is one of the few players in the game that is so good that the am role just gets in his way,

my penny

Agreed, I kinda saw it when I drew against watford in game yesterday. I'll give it a tweek and see what happens. Thanks man and to @Experienced Defender 

[Experienced Defender]

36 minutes ago, BigV said:

I'll give your formation/tactic a go in pre season and i'll get back to you on how it goes after the signings

I don't say that you should play with the exact tactic/setup that I proposed. It was just an example to make it easier for you to understand some tactical principles of a 4231. But you can use those principles to create your own 4231, rather than simply copy-pasting my version. Of course, you can try mine to see how it works for you in some matches, but not necessarily as your primary tactic.