Breaking down teams and converting possession

[Toonarmyfc]

Hello all,

Firstly, thank you to everyone who contributes to this site- as a long time (97/98) but fairly unsuccessful CM/FM player, this site has been a great source of advice and inspiration! I am currently in Season 3 of my Lyon save, having finished 3rd in the previous two seasons, behind PSG and Monaco. I've managed to keep the big players- Depay/Fekir but sold Dembele this summer as he wasn't happy we didn't win the league. I also bought and sold (unfortunately). 

My problem seems to be converting possession and chances into wins. As in the screenshots attached, I draw a fair amount of games 0-0, despite dominating possession and creating lots of chances. It's only early days in Season 3 but I thought I'd ask the question before I get too much more involved and also before the transfer window closes.

Am I missing something obvious? It seems to be home and away, although when I played a much more counter attacking style against PSG I won 1-0, although arguably undeservedly. I feel I have good players in the right positions, with the potential for goals but it's falling apart somewhere.

Thanks again and apologies if I've missed something straight forward.

[Robson 07]

Hi @Toonarmyfc.  The tactic is decent.  PSG can be one of the hardest teams to get by from the saves I've played.  My biggest question to you is why all the play focused centrally?  With the players tucking inside and the play being directed down the centre it could all get congested perhaps.  Worth thinking about a more mixed style as an attacking approach. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Robson 07

[summatsupeer]

Firstly your two attack duties are the ST and AMC.  Do you need to exploit middle more? They're already the two biggest risk takers.  Secondly, how will those two attack duties combine? Are they not both doing the same thing in the same area?

Dribble at defence, your two IF-Su already dribble more, whom else do you want to do this? Can they actually beat opponents by dribbling and if they do what option do they have? If the WB does it then his only option is likely to cross but you want to WBIB?

Currently you have both central players trying to attack middle and both wide forwards as IF-Su also wanting to attack the centre. Then there's a BBM who could attack box is there really any space?  I'm guessing a lot of your attacks result in a pot shot or WB cross?

That front 4 setup is quite direct, favouring a fast/direct style but still could use a bit more variety to create space. If want a bit more threat and variety from the outside combinations plus the ST and AMC using different areas.

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Toonarmyfc said:

Okay, let's analyze a bit.

First, there is absolutely no difference between your flanks in terms of roles and duties (the old issue of one-dimensionality).

Both your lone striker and AMC are on attack duties, which would/could make sense on condition that:

a) your playing style is counter-attacking (which yours obviously is not); or

b) AMC operates in a creator role (TQ, AP or customized AM) and striker as a non-creator (i.e. runner or scorer), but your lone striker is (also) played in a creator role (DLF). 

Then your "holding" CM is played in the BWM role, the most aggressive of all nominally defensive roles. Which means that he is not really a holding MF. Neither is the BBM next to him.

This defensive risk is further compounded by the following:

- more urgent pressing on the team level, which is then compounded by:

- hard tackling (a.k.a. get stuck in) again on the team level, which is made even more risky by:

- higher DL

And all this under a high-risk mentality (Positive). To cut a long story short - your tactic entails a needlessly high defensive risk IMHO.

When it comes to instructions, I think that Focus play through the middle is unnecessary -  not only because it further increases the already high defensive risk (by increasing the mentalities of your central defenders and the defend-duty CM), but also because it encourages the play precisely through the area of the pitch where opposition defenses will be most densely packed (in most matches).

Work ball into box is not a bad idea given that you have a lot of good players who should be able to keep the ball under pressure in the final third, but can overcomplicate things when used against highly defensive opposition that is denying you space in and around their box. So if you want to use the WBiB, I would also add the Be more expressive, so that your players would be encouraged to try something more adventurous on occasion (i.e. when they see fit).

In terms of GK distribution, I would remove both Take short kicks and Distribute to CBs. You are already playing out of defence, so there is no reason to limit the keeper's options as to how and to whom he should distribute the ball. Simply, let him decide which option is optimal (and safest) in any given situation.

Given that you have fast and technically skillful players up front, I think you should also use the Counter TI in transition, simply to give you an extra attacking weapon (when and if an opportunity presents itself). Although it's not (always) necessary, so you can activate the Counter occasionally (as an additional option from your tactical toolbox).

[Bluebird123]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

First, there is absolutely no difference between your flanks in terms of roles and duties (the old issue of one-dimensionality).

 

You don't know the players PPMs so it's best not to give advice like this

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Bluebird123 said:

You don't know the players PPMs so it's best not to give advice like this

Rather than meddling in other people's attempts to help, you could offer the OP your own advice (if you have any). If the OP took into account possible PPMs that may change the situation, he can easily explain it himself.

[MadOnion]

Since you're dominating possession and you're probably camping in the opponents half, perhaps it's a better idea to go bit more direct? You're pressing the opponents quite a bit (positive mentality, counter-press and more urgent pressing), so relaxing that a bit, could help dragging the opponents out?

Provided you're happy with your roles and duties (I don't really see that being a problem, as I play a similar formation, but I achieve variety using PPM's and PI's), you can certainly tweak the team instructions.

If, after say 30min, I haven't scored a goal against a team I should be scoring, there are usually a couple of things I do, without changing mentality since that affects a host of things. The list below obviously depends on the context (at this point I'd be watching the game in comprehensive mode).

• Go wider and remove work ball into box
• Pass into space and lower LOE
• Add mixed crosses and hit early crosses
• Subbing in a player with a different profile, whilst playing the same role, can also have a meaningful impact
• (I normally start here) Last, but certainly not least, use shouts and pay attention to their body language

Good luck 

Edited October 9, 2019 by MadOnion

[robot_skeleton]

14 hours ago, MadOnion said:

Since you're dominating possession and you're probably camping in the opponents half, perhaps it's a better idea to go bit more direct? You're pressing the opponents quite a bit (positive mentality, counter-press and more urgent pressing), so relaxing that a bit, could help dragging the opponents out?

Provided you're happy with your roles and duties (I don't really see that being a problem, as I play a similar formation, but I achieve variety using PPM's and PI's), you can certainly tweak the team instructions.

If, after say 30min, I haven't scored a goal against a team I should be scoring, there are usually a couple of things I do, without changing mentality since that affects a host of things. The list below obviously depends on the context (at this point I'd be watching the game in comprehensive mode).

• Go wider and remove work ball into box
• Pass into space and lower LOE
• Add mixed crosses and hit early crosses
• Subbing in a player with a different profile, whilst playing the same role, can also have a meaningful impact
• (I normally start here) Last, but certainly not least, use shouts and pay attention to their body language

Good luck 

These are actually pretty decent tips. I would say though that going wider for exmple never worked for me in a possession system, knowing your tactic and rewatch the earlier parts of the  game is probably also very important.

[afailed10]

I'd change your striker to a more advancing role to pin defenders back and leave enough room for the two IF-S and Attacking mid.

[Bluebird123]

21 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Rather than meddling in other people's attempts to help, you could offer the OP your own advice (if you have any). If the OP took into account possible PPMs that may change the situation, he can easily explain it himself.

Meddling it's an open forum mate, your advice is open to criticism. 

 

I did offer advice, and that is to ignore people who rattle off the "one dimensional setup" advice. It's not helpful in the slightest, although the rest of your advice is sound and worth taking into account. Don't take it so personally. 

[MadOnion]

6 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

These are actually pretty decent tips. I would say though that going wider for exmple never worked for me in a possession system, knowing your tactic and rewatch the earlier parts of the  game is probably also very important.

I guess you have to try everything, even Pep went long ball against Wolves (although that didn't work either) 

Edited October 9, 2019 by MadOnion

[herne79]

On 08/10/2019 at 16:13, Experienced Defender said:

First, there is absolutely no difference between your flanks in terms of roles and duties (the old issue of one-dimensionality).

 

On 08/10/2019 at 18:03, Bluebird123 said:

You don't know the players PPMs so it's best not to give advice like this

 

16 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

I did offer advice, and that is to ignore people who rattle off the "one dimensional setup" advice.

You're both right.

Symmetry of player roles & duties on both flanks can indeed lead to a lack of variety in attack, and variety can be important.  On the flip side that can be overcome (to an extent) by using different players in those same roles - different in terms of attributes and Traits. 

In this particular case however, issues are currently being seen with the attack, so relying solely on different players in the same role is perhaps insufficient here.  Therefore creating a variety of roles could lead to a more tangible difference and would certainly be worth a try.