Fluid Counter - 4-4-1-1 Help!

[edhdurham]

Hi, I am looking to get 4-4-1-1 working on the basis of a fluid counter mentality.  I had some minor success last year in t he cups but it was never consistent and I think it is down to my roles, so just some advice on the setup and then I will work from there:

Defence:

SK - D

FB-S  BPD-D  CD-D  FB-S

So SK and BPD are able to play counter attacking balls, I was hoping that the FB-S and the CD-D would just add a strong defensive minded back four.  As I am playing counter attacking I rather than attacking football I dont think there is any point playing offensive Full Backs and waiting for them to to join the attack.

So then the Midfield:

WM-A  BBM-A  DLP-D  WM-A

So the WMs stay more narrow as per the defaults for the fluid counter tactic, but as they are on attack they get into the box more to add a goal treat, the DLP again creates from deep with counter attacking balls as well as helping the centre backs, also read that a BDP and DLP together can help against teams that press high, the BBM is there to add energy and also be a goal threat, whilst keeping up with play and helping plug any gaps.

So ignoring the AM and ST positions for now, any advice on the above, does it seem ok?  If so I will then play around with the front two and instructions.  I had tried a CM-D instead of DLP alongside a RPM instead of the BBM but it still didnt work consistantly.

Cheers

[Justified]

It's all well and good sitting deep and letting the opposition come onto you and then hit on the break but what about when you're not on the counter and just in possession of the ball? The way I see it is you have no width at all. Maybe mix up the roles a bit to give yourself some width. If you actually have a winger then set one to W(A) and maybe the opposite FB to WB? At least then you can have some width in the attack when in possession. Whenever I've played 2 banks of 4 I've always enjoyed a DLP (s) and CM (d) partnership as a double pivot as they hold their positions and won't be out of shape too much when you loose possession.

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, edhdurham said:

WM-A  BBM-A  DLP-D  WM-A

BBM-A ??? BBM can be only on support duty. 

 

6 hours ago, edhdurham said:

So ignoring the AM and ST positions for now, any advice on the above, does it seem ok?

Without taking a look at your tactic as a whole (mentality, instructions and all roles and duties) - including the AM and ST roles/duties - I can only speculate, because everything is interrelated when it comes to tactics. You cannot look at tactical elements in isolation. For any really meaningful advice, please post a screenshot of the tactic (or at least describe it in full detail) 

[edhdurham]

18 hours ago, Justified said:

It's all well and good sitting deep and letting the opposition come onto you and then hit on the break but what about when you're not on the counter and just in possession of the ball? The way I see it is you have no width at all. Maybe mix up the roles a bit to give yourself some width. If you actually have a winger then set one to W(A) and maybe the opposite FB to WB? At least then you can have some width in the attack when in possession. Whenever I've played 2 banks of 4 I've always enjoyed a DLP (s) and CM (d) partnership as a double pivot as they hold their positions and won't be out of shape too much when you loose possession.

I changed my CMs as you suggested CM-D and DLP-S and my defence seems better and my WM-A x 2 seem to stay a little wider, so thats good.  So just need to look at the best pairing upfront.

[Justified]

8 hours ago, edhdurham said:

I changed my CMs as you suggested CM-D and DLP-S and my defence seems better and my WM-A x 2 seem to stay a little wider, so thats good.  So just need to look at the best pairing upfront.

Whenever I create I tactic I always start from front to back, as weird as that sounds. I think setting up a "defence" is quite easy, it's attacking patterns you want to maximise your ability/potential and pay attention to PPM's too. Setting a Vardy type to a DLF is counter productive as you're not going to get the best out of him in that type of system.

[edhdurham]

Well so far so good'ish...  results in the first 3 games:

Beat Man U 4-1 Home, despite having a man sent off just before half time

Drew with Brighton 0-0 Away 

Beat Norwich 3-0 Home, Norwich had a man sent off at 2-0

The Man U game was interesting, same number of shots on goal, but total shots they had 3 times more than me, but they were just blocked / off target, so considering I am playing a counter tactic and inviting teams onto me I guess that's not to much of a concen.

Tactic: I am not looking at the players as such at the moment as its the tactic / way I want to play which I want to get right, then buy the right type of players, so F9 not great, neither are my WMs but the rest are ok, Almiron at AM is fantastic, his pace when we win the ball is killing teams, especially if we win it off the DM or CD he just attacks the space.  I like the idea of F9 dropping deep and the AM running past him into space, but still not 100% sure so still messing about.

Norwich Stats: Dominated really, clinical in both the Man U and Norwich games, so need to look at how Brighton played and see what I need to tweak against certain teams, maybe play with a winger or focus passing down the wings, the tactic is already defensive enough I think, so just better suited players and some tweeks and it might be ok.

 

[edhdurham]

Next game, perfect example of having to learn how to change / tweak the tactic for certain team, defence is ok but scoring goals with such a defensive setup might be a pain.  Played Sheff U in the Cup they didn't manage a single shot on target, but despite having 26 we could not score:

 

 

[Justified]

Like I said previously, you have no width in your team to stretch teams. Against Sheff Utd you had 63% possession, which is a lot. Also you have shoot on sight selected so the shot statistics can be skewed as it's impossible to see if your team is just blasting them once they get into the final third.

Maybe try Atsu on W (A) (he has RWB as a PPM anyways), Krafth as a WB (A or S) (he has hugs line as a PPM) to give yourself a little more width when you have so much possession. I'm not so sure about having a F9 when you're defending deep, doesn't feel like the best outlet. I'd maybe go with DLF (S) who, if he does get the ball, can hold up play a bit better for you.