Youth intake in FM20

[craiigman]

On 14/11/2019 at 20:56, SpS_Zen said:

So you can take a HOYD with very poor stats, as long as he has the personnality and the formation/coaching style you want. And you wont notice the difference with a 5 star rating HOYD outside the exceptions. Is there an exception, a freak player, once every 5years? 10years?

 

 

@Seb Wassell Is there a real difference in HOYD attributes? 

Edited November 17, 2019 by craiigman

[metallimuse]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 09:37, Jimbokav1971 said:

 

• I have a HoYD at my club, but when I go to the Dev.Centre, the report is provided by the DoF rather than the HoYD. In the past we were able to delegate to individual staff members, but this appears to have vanished. If it hasn't vanished, would you mind pointing me in the right direction please. If it has vanished, can you confirm that this is working as intended and that feedback......... oh, maybe that's where it is actually. (Yes, I have checked and Responsibilities - Advice & Reports - Player Reports - Provides Youth Development Info is what needs to be changed. That still doesn't clarify who is responsible for bringing Youth Intake players into the club. 

Ok I looked over the weekend and I don't have a "advice and reports" section

[Jimbokav1971]

2 hours ago, metallimuse said:

Ok I looked over the weekend and I don't have a "advice and reports" section

I will show you some pictures when I get home but depending on who you are managing you might not get a youth intake. Brentford for example. 

[metallimuse]

2 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

I will show you some pictures when I get home but depending on who you are managing you might not get a youth intake. Brentford for example. 

Currently at Watford but I couldn't find this either when I was at Motherwell.

It came to light at Motherwell when I replaced my HOYD I noticed in Dev centre that my reports all seemed to be coming from my under 18's manager and then when I replaced him it reverted to the new HOYD.

It's been really frustrating me, I'm sure it must be something obvious I'm missing but I just don't see it.

[Jimbokav1971]

Ok @metallimusehere we go. 

We are looking at the Staff menu down the left hand side 1st of all. 

From the Staff page you then click on Responsibilities at the top and then Staff on the drop-down menu. 

From the Staff - Responsibilities - Staff screen, you then click on "Advice and Reports" that I have highlighted below in red. 

In the second section, "Player Reports" you will now see "Provides Youth Development Information" and you are able to select a number of different staff from the drop down menu, (highlighted below in red). 

Whoever you select in this section, changed the person who provides you info on the following report. 

Click on Dev.Centre down near the bottom on the left hand side.  Now you can see Report By: (that I have highlighted below in red). This is the section that changes depending on who you set in the earlier section. I hope that makes it a little clearer and you can find your way around now. 

[Super Bladesman]

On 13/11/2019 at 15:34, Seb Wassell said:

We hear you. We should remove saving from the game. Got it.

Ironman Mode!

[metallimuse]

1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Ok @metallimusehere we go. 

We are looking at the Staff menu down the left hand side 1st of all. 

From the Staff page you then click on Responsibilities at the top and then Staff on the drop-down menu. 

From the Staff - Responsibilities - Staff screen, you then click on "Advice and Reports" that I have highlighted below in red. 

In the second section, "Player Reports" you will now see "Provides Youth Development Information" and you are able to select a number of different staff from the drop down menu, (highlighted below in red). 

Whoever you select in this section, changed the person who provides you info on the following report. 

Click on Dev.Centre down near the bottom on the left hand side.  Now you can see Report By: (that I have highlighted below in red). This is the section that changes depending on who you set in the earlier section. I hope that makes it a little clearer and you can find your way around now. 

You little ledge! I had not found that. I’d gone to staff responsibilities but it had always been on ‘general’ and I’d glossed over the contracts and advice sections next to it.

Thank you so much! 

[timbo1983]

Hi Guys, this is slightly off topic but in FM19 I built my Everton team up to be great and was really invested in youth development. I had read somewhere that when requesting an affiliate club, if you selected the option that said something like "to allow us to recruit foreign youngsters" then you had a chance of getting regens from that country in your youth intake. I had about 8 affiliate clubs all from different countries and used only that option when requesting the affiliate in the first place, however over 11 or 12 seasons I got exclusively English regens. So @Seb Wassell I was just wondering if you could confirm this for me at all?

If I request an affiliate club and I tell the board I want the affiliate club to "allow us to recruit foreign youngsters", should this increase my chances of getting regens from that country? I just found it strange that over 11-12 seasons on FM19 I never once got a player that wasn't English. Getting players in my youth intake from other countries offers some variety, as from memory regens from different countries come sort of hard-coded with different "styles", eg a Brazilian regen more likely to have higher flair than a Scottish regen....

Edited November 22, 2019 by timbo1983

[KlaaZ]

3 hours ago, timbo1983 said:

Hi Guys, this is slightly off topic but in FM19 I built my Everton team up to be great and was really invested in youth development. I had read somewhere that when requesting an affiliate club, if you selected the option that said something like "to allow us to recruit foreign youngsters" then you had a chance of getting regens from that country in your youth intake. I had about 8 affiliate clubs all from different countries and used only that option when requesting the affiliate in the first place, however over 11 or 12 seasons I got exclusively English regens. So @Seb Wassell I was just wondering if you could confirm this for me at all?

If I request an affiliate club and I tell the board I want the affiliate club to "allow us to recruit foreign youngsters", should this increase my chances of getting regens from that country? I just found it strange that over 11-12 seasons on FM19 I never once got a player that wasn't English. Getting players in my youth intake from other countries offers some variety, as from memory regens from different countries come sort of hard-coded with different "styles", eg a Brazilian regen more likely to have higher flair than a Scottish regen....

It will increase the chance of getting a youngster in your youth batch that started his career at your affiliate club, yes.

[KlaaZ]

Just a question as this has been a topic with a lot of knowledge so far. Youth players use the regular training facilities and the youth facilities are (among other factors) responsible for the quality of your intake. What do your youth coaches  impact? Do they train the younger players and so also have an impact on how well your U18 progress?

[Dorin]

17 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

Just a question as this has been a topic with a lot of knowledge so far. Youth players use the regular training facilities and the youth facilities are (among other factors) responsible for the quality of your intake. What do your youth coaches  impact? Do they train the younger players and so also have an impact on how well your U18 progress?

From what I know, your club's junior coaching impacts the CA rating (current ability) of the youth players when they come in on youth intake day. The better junior coaching the higher CA they are likely to have from the start.
Youth facilities impacts the PA ratings (potential ability) more, so you are more likely to get players with better potential. Training facilities have an impact on the rate of player development and this is where the quality of your coaches also has an impact.

Youth coaches (u19 coaches) train the u18 players and their rate of development is impacted depending on the quality of training they can provide. You can check these in the coaching assignments for the u19 team on the training screen.

Edit: there is a diference between junior coaching level and your youth coaches (u19). 2 separate things in the game.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Dorin

[Seb Wassell]

3 hours ago, Dorin said:

From what I know, your club's junior coaching impacts the CA rating (current ability) of the youth players when they come in on youth intake day. The better junior coaching the higher CA they are likely to have from the start.
Youth facilities impacts the PA ratings (potential ability) more, so you are more likely to get players with better potential. Training facilities have an impact on the rate of player development and this is where the quality of your coaches also has an impact.

This is incorrect. From earlier in this thread: 

 

21 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

Just a question as this has been a topic with a lot of knowledge so far. Youth players use the regular training facilities and the youth facilities are (among other factors) responsible for the quality of your intake. What do your youth coaches  impact? Do they train the younger players and so also have an impact on how well your U18 progress?

Youth Coaches coach the U18 team or equivalent.

[Seb Wassell]

On 22/11/2019 at 06:25, timbo1983 said:

Hi Guys, this is slightly off topic but in FM19 I built my Everton team up to be great and was really invested in youth development. I had read somewhere that when requesting an affiliate club, if you selected the option that said something like "to allow us to recruit foreign youngsters" then you had a chance of getting regens from that country in your youth intake. I had about 8 affiliate clubs all from different countries and used only that option when requesting the affiliate in the first place, however over 11 or 12 seasons I got exclusively English regens. So @Seb Wassell I was just wondering if you could confirm this for me at all?

If I request an affiliate club and I tell the board I want the affiliate club to "allow us to recruit foreign youngsters", should this increase my chances of getting regens from that country? I just found it strange that over 11-12 seasons on FM19 I never once got a player that wasn't English. Getting players in my youth intake from other countries offers some variety, as from memory regens from different countries come sort of hard-coded with different "styles", eg a Brazilian regen more likely to have higher flair than a Scottish regen....

 

On 22/11/2019 at 10:26, KlaaZ said:

It will increase the chance of getting a youngster in your youth batch that started his career at your affiliate club, yes.

As @KlaaZ says, having an affiliate with this type of link gives you a chance of having a newgen from there come through 

[KlaaZ]

Cheers @Seb Wassell

[timbo1983]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

 

As @KlaaZ says, having an affiliate with this type of link gives you a chance of having a newgen from there come through 

Thanks for the reply @Seb Wassell. Much appreciated

[timbo1983]

Hi All, same topic but a different question, just completed my first season, and in the off-season two clubs came in and just offered contracts to my two best youth prospects from my intake and they were gone for a small compensation fee! I don't recall this happening in previous versions? Do I now have to offer the best prospects professional contracts straight away to keep them away from other clubs?

[herne79]

36 minutes ago, timbo1983 said:

Hi All, same topic but a different question, just completed my first season, and in the off-season two clubs came in and just offered contracts to my two best youth prospects from my intake and they were gone for a small compensation fee! I don't recall this happening in previous versions? Do I now have to offer the best prospects professional contracts straight away to keep them away from other clubs?

Get your best prospects committed to your club asap.  Poaching was always possible but it's been enhanced for FM20.

 

[dannyfc]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Get your best prospects committed to your club asap.  Poaching was always possible but it's been enhanced for FM20.

 

Pretty realistic tbf.

I don't even know why lower tier clubs bother with youth academies anymore, they cost millions to maintain yet any decent prospect can get poached for nominal fees. City were able to pick up Sancho from Watford for £60k.  

My advice would be to invest in first team training facilities to focus developing the 18 yos the Premier League clubs release for free.

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by dannyfc

[ajt]

The poaching thing is pretty cool. Unluckily for me I had a 5 star prospect poached by Man City when I was in charge of Southampton but at least it adds a bit of variety.

 

Also yeah sign your best prospects to professional contracts straight away.

[FlorianAlbert9]

I always offer professional contact to my youth. 

In FM20 other team can bypass It (before contract will start) o no?

Could be challanging if yes. 

[KlaaZ]

14 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I always offer professional contact to my youth. 

In FM20 other team can bypass It (before contract will start) o no?

Could be challanging if yes. 

No, once they accepted the professional deal, it can't be bypassed. 

[timbo1983]

9 hours ago, herne79 said:

Get your best prospects committed to your club asap.  Poaching was always possible but it's been enhanced for FM20.

 

Thanks for the reply @herne79. That article refers specifically to players getting poached before the youth intake, but based on the comments that came after my post it looks like any club can come and poach your best prospects during the next window if you don't sign them to professional contracts. Definitely something I wish I knew beforehand as it is a little frustrating to get two players over 3 stars PA, only to have them poached by other clubs in the off-season. In one case a prospect was poached by City, I offered a contract once I got the news item but he understandably chose City > Everton. The second case was even more frustrating as the kid signed for Sheffield United! As it was the last day of the window I got the news item they had offered him a contract, and the news item he had signed for them both at once so didn't even have a chance to try and keep him. Ah well, lesson learnt. Will sign up any promising youngsters immediately after youth intake going forward.

[Seb Wassell]

11 hours ago, timbo1983 said:

Thanks for the reply @herne79. That article refers specifically to players getting poached before the youth intake, but based on the comments that came after my post it looks like any club can come and poach your best prospects during the next window if you don't sign them to professional contracts. Definitely something I wish I knew beforehand as it is a little frustrating to get two players over 3 stars PA, only to have them poached by other clubs in the off-season. In one case a prospect was poached by City, I offered a contract once I got the news item but he understandably chose City > Everton. The second case was even more frustrating as the kid signed for Sheffield United! As it was the last day of the window I got the news item they had offered him a contract, and the news item he had signed for them both at once so didn't even have a chance to try and keep him. Ah well, lesson learnt. Will sign up any promising youngsters immediately after youth intake going forward.

As in reality, players that graduate from your youth setup into the U18s (or equivalent) are signed on a Youth Contract. This means that, with a small amount of compensation, they are free to be signed by any other club. It is prudent to get your better prospects signed up to a professional contract as soon as possible. This works both ways of course, you can also take advantage of the AI not recognising a player's potential and failing to offer him a professional deal.

[timbo1983]

10 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

As in reality, players that graduate from your youth setup into the U18s (or equivalent) are signed on a Youth Contract. This means that, with a small amount of compensation, they are free to be signed by any other club. It is prudent to get your better prospects signed up to a professional contract as soon as possible. This works both ways of course, you can also take advantage of the AI not recognising a player's potential and failing to offer him a professional deal.

Cheers @Seb Wassell. Will make sure I do that with my next intake!

[WilltheWolf92]

Hi,

I just finished 10 seasons at Jupiler Pro League (Belgium), but something that was always very realistic in the former editions was that a lot of Belgian regens have a with Congolese or Moroccan descent, like the national team, now i only have max 5 Belgians with Congolese descent while in the former editions every Belgian club had some. Could this be changed at anyway?

[Ikthop]

18 hours ago, WilltheWolf92 said:

Hi,

I just finished 10 seasons at Jupiler Pro League (Belgium), but something that was always very realistic in the former editions was that a lot of Belgian regens have a with Congolese or Moroccan descent, like the national team, now i only have max 5 Belgians with Congolese descent while in the former editions every Belgian club had some. Could this be changed at anyway?

There is a bug. More info here:

 

 

[rjinswand]

I'm curious about the wording in the preview, for instance, how does a "top prospect" match up to a player who has the potential "to go far"? Anyone done any experiments on this? Since the preview seems to be the most important factor to the level of the intake, it would be nice to know what to look for.

Edit: Apparently the text is tied to the positions, never gotten anything other than a top MC, fine striker or DM who "could go far".

Edited November 27, 2019 by rjinswand

[Caldwell]

Is there a way of changing your youth intakes names before they actually come in? 

[timbo1983]

On 25/11/2019 at 23:42, Seb Wassell said:

As in reality, players that graduate from your youth setup into the U18s (or equivalent) are signed on a Youth Contract. This means that, with a small amount of compensation, they are free to be signed by any other club. It is prudent to get your better prospects signed up to a professional contract as soon as possible. This works both ways of course, you can also take advantage of the AI not recognising a player's potential and failing to offer him a professional deal.

Hi @Seb Wassell. Thanks for your reply and all your help thus far. I have actually given the game a rest for awhile as I find it unplayable with the current ME bugs, but I digress. I took your advice in my next couple of seasons and signed my youth players to pro contracts immediately. Also signed up any with average potential whenever any other clubs started sniffing around them and have prevented poaching. My question now is, you mentioned this works both ways, but unless I am doing something wrong I have not found this to be the case. I will often search for players in the scouting centre and filter them by "contract type > youth contract" given the advice you provided above. I thought these should be players that I can just offer a contract to as they are not signed to a professional deal? However I am never given the option to offer them a contract and a scout report will always come back with an exorbitant fee for those youth players with high potential. So basically in 2.5 seasons I had 2 players poached in my first season, and have not been able to poach anyone myself. Am I wrong in assuming that looking for players who are only on youth contracts is the way to poach youngsters from AI teams?

[Seb Wassell]

8 hours ago, timbo1983 said:

Hi @Seb Wassell. Thanks for your reply and all your help thus far. I have actually given the game a rest for awhile as I find it unplayable with the current ME bugs, but I digress. I took your advice in my next couple of seasons and signed my youth players to pro contracts immediately. Also signed up any with average potential whenever any other clubs started sniffing around them and have prevented poaching. My question now is, you mentioned this works both ways, but unless I am doing something wrong I have not found this to be the case. I will often search for players in the scouting centre and filter them by "contract type > youth contract" given the advice you provided above. I thought these should be players that I can just offer a contract to as they are not signed to a professional deal? However I am never given the option to offer them a contract and a scout report will always come back with an exorbitant fee for those youth players with high potential. So basically in 2.5 seasons I had 2 players poached in my first season, and have not been able to poach anyone myself. Am I wrong in assuming that looking for players who are only on youth contracts is the way to poach youngsters from AI teams?

It sounds as if those players have already signed provisional professional contracts, so whilst they are still on a youth contract this is only until they turn X age, meaning you cannot sign them without negotiating a transfer deal. Note that likely won't be for "free" either, depending on nation there will be a compensation fee etc.

[robin1337]

dont know if its a bug or not but somehow when i go on holiday when the youth intake is up i wont get any intakes which means i dont get any new youth players at all.. anyone got the same problem?

[Gee_Simpson]

5 hours ago, robin1337 said:

dont know if its a bug or not but somehow when i go on holiday when the youth intake is up i wont get any intakes which means i dont get any new youth players at all.. anyone got the same problem?

Sounds very much like a bug but maybe someone can confirm as I haven't started playing FM20 yet. 

[Wigwam]

On 15/11/2019 at 03:32, Seb Wassell said:

Producing Newgens

 

The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.
Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

Stand back while I rip the hinges off these assertions

Three results of a standard unedited game (the median PA player is highlighted, and PA is the last figure on the right):

Three results with the following edits:

France game importance set to 'completely useless' and nation reputation of '1'
Bordeaux, PSG, Monaco, Lyon, Marseille youth facilities all set to '1'

Lyon unedited = 128-130, 124, 135-141
Lyon edited = 123, 131-134, 126-154

The average median PA of Lyon unedited = 131.6
The average median PA of Lyon edited = 133.6

Now let's go back over what Seb claims. He claims that 'game importance' and 'youth facilities' are 2 of 5 factors, and that these 5 factors contribute to PA equally. If this is true, then we would expect to see median PA decrease by at least 20% surely. Seb is obviously wrong here.

I measured several teams, not just Lyon. I didn't screenshot these, just recorded the data.

Unedited:

Monaco - 125, 129-143, 134 = 132.7
PSG - 124-131, 124-135, 97-113 = 120.6
Marseille - 119-120, 103-105, 107-118 = 112

Orleans - 100, 105, 105 = 103.3
Paris FC - 83-96, 96-100, 91-94 = 93.3
Ajaccio - 78-88, 101, 97 = 91

Edited:

Monaco - 125-139, 135-145, 135-141 = 136.6
PSG - 92-131, 150-151, 111-119 = 125.6
Marseille - 124, 104, 123 = 117

Orleans - 86-94, 107-108, 93 = 97.6
Paris FC - 84, 107-114, 96 = 100.2
Ajaccio - 92-101, 95-106, 86-89 = 94.8

 

Some anticipated counter-points:

Quote

6-7 players isn't enough to get an accurate median

I've done a lot of testing, and what I've found is that the median always stays the same, regardless of whether there are 3 or 16 regens.

But even if you don't believe that, I've given the results for Orleans, Paris FC and Ajaccio, which each have 12-14 regens.

Quote

The median varies too much to measure the differences precisely

The median almost always sticks within a range of -/+ ~10%, and averaging 5 medians makes it even more accurate. If the chance of 1 result being an inaccurate blip is say 10%, then the chance of 2 of the 3 being inaccurate blips is 1%.

Quote

It's not about the median, it changes something else

The other thing it could be changing is the deviation from the mean. For instance, 'very important' might result in significantly more 190 PA players, whereas 'completely useless' rarely produces players above 150 PA.

But this is not what I noticed at all. You can see that in one of my edited results, Lyon got a 189 PA regen. I also saw that Auxerre produced a 194 PA player. So game importance/youth facilities does not appear to alter the distribution of PA at all.

Game importance does not seem to reduce the number of regens produced by the nation, nor the average PA of all the nation's regens either. First image is unedited database, second image is edited database:

[Seb Wassell]

18 hours ago, Wigwam said:

Spoiler

 

Stand back while I rip the hinges off these assertions

Three results of a standard unedited game (the median PA player is highlighted, and PA is the last figure on the right):

Three results with the following edits:

France game importance set to 'completely useless' and nation reputation of '1'
Bordeaux, PSG, Monaco, Lyon, Marseille youth facilities all set to '1'

Lyon unedited = 128-130, 124, 135-141
Lyon edited = 123, 131-134, 126-154

The average median PA of Lyon unedited = 131.6
The average median PA of Lyon edited = 133.6

Now let's go back over what Seb claims. He claims that 'game importance' and 'youth facilities' are 2 of 5 factors, and that these 5 factors contribute to PA equally. If this is true, then we would expect to see median PA decrease by at least 20% surely. Seb is obviously wrong here.

I measured several teams, not just Lyon. I didn't screenshot these, just recorded the data.

Unedited:

Monaco - 125, 129-143, 134 = 132.7
PSG - 124-131, 124-135, 97-113 = 120.6
Marseille - 119-120, 103-105, 107-118 = 112

Orleans - 100, 105, 105 = 103.3
Paris FC - 83-96, 96-100, 91-94 = 93.3
Ajaccio - 78-88, 101, 97 = 91

Edited:

Monaco - 125-139, 135-145, 135-141 = 136.6
PSG - 92-131, 150-151, 111-119 = 125.6
Marseille - 124, 104, 123 = 117

Orleans - 86-94, 107-108, 93 = 97.6
Paris FC - 84, 107-114, 96 = 100.2
Ajaccio - 92-101, 95-106, 86-89 = 94.8

 

Some anticipated counter-points:

I've done a lot of testing, and what I've found is that the median always stays the same, regardless of whether there are 3 or 16 regens.

But even if you don't believe that, I've given the results for Orleans, Paris FC and Ajaccio, which each have 12-14 regens.

The median almost always sticks within a range of -/+ ~10%, and averaging 5 medians makes it even more accurate. If the chance of 1 result being an inaccurate blip is say 10%, then the chance of 2 of the 3 being inaccurate blips is 1%.

The other thing it could be changing is the deviation from the mean. For instance, 'very important' might result in significantly more 190 PA players, whereas 'completely useless' rarely produces players above 150 PA.

But this is not what I noticed at all. You can see that in one of my edited results, Lyon got a 189 PA regen. I also saw that Auxerre produced a 194 PA player. So game importance/youth facilities does not appear to alter the distribution of PA at all.

Game importance does not seem to reduce the number of regens produced by the nation, nor the average PA of all the nation's regens either. First image is unedited database, second image is edited database:

 

 

The attitude here is not appreciated, nor is it helpful.

You have misinterpreted my comments or I have explained poorly. It is YR, YF, and JC that equally contribute. There is also of course variance factored in, medians/modes may not be the best approach in this case.

If you believe you have discovered an issue that needs investigating, please post here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/726-football-manager-2020-bugs-forum/

[KlaaZ]

Also, as he himself pointed out, that dataset is rubbish from a statistical point of view. 

[Wigwam]

7 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

The attitude here is not appreciated, nor is it helpful.

You have misinterpreted my comments or I have explained poorly. It is YR, YF, and JC that equally contribute. There is also of course variance factored in, medians/modes may not be the best approach in this case.

If you believe you have discovered an issue that needs investigating, please post here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/726-football-manager-2020-bugs-forum/

No ill will intended Seb lad, just having a bit of fun

I am serious about game importance having no effect though. I will post this in the bug forum as you instruct me to

A few things about what you've said

You say it's actually just youth rating, youth facilities and junior coaching that equally contribute to PA. But in my testing of each of these settings individually, youth facilities has no effect at all on PA, and junior coaching contributes more (~40%) than youth rating (~25%), while youth recruitment also has a ~25% effect, and there is another lever for PA I have been unable to identify that seems to be nation or division specific

You say that youth facilities are not used by visible players at the club. I didn't know that youth players use the training facilities rather than the youth facilities. But if youth facilities don't affect PA of regens, then I wonder, what are they for?

You also say that Brazil are more likely to produce more technically competent newgens than Sweden. If true, I wonder what attribute does this; is it visible in the editor? You also say it changes over time.. what changes over time, attribute biases? game importance? nation youth rating?

1 hour ago, KlaaZ said:

Also, as he himself pointed out, that dataset is rubbish from a statistical point of view. 

How so?

I've set 'game importance' to 'completely useless' for Germany and England before btw, so I've done this probably about 50 times.

[KlaaZ]

Because 1) you can't establish trends on a single season, even if you run that season 50 times and 2) because you assume quite a few things, the main one being that changing youth facilities will impact the next batch of regens. For all you (and I) know, there's an under the hood system of invisible youth players already in place. Imagine this: If my club upped it's youth facilities tomorrow in real life, would I get a better youth intake in the next batch of 16 year olds all of a sudden? No, the impact would only show over the course of the next 5-10 years, at the soonest. 

Long story short, you make a lot of assumptions about something you don't know the workings of.

[Wigwam]

10 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

Because 1) you can't establish trends on a single season, even if you run that season 50 times and 2) because you assume quite a few things, the main one being that changing youth facilities will impact the next batch of regens. For all you (and I) know, there's an under the hood system of invisible youth players already in place. Imagine this: If my club upped it's youth facilities tomorrow in real life, would I get a better youth intake in the next batch of 16 year olds all of a sudden? No, the impact would only show over the course of the next 5-10 years, at the soonest. 

Long story short, you make a lot of assumptions about something you don't know the workings of.

1. I've done it in multiple database loads. About 8-10. I did three for France, one for England, and several more for Germany.

2. Yes, I've thought about this. In the case of youth facilities, yes, it might be a delayed effect. Perhaps sometime I will do a load 5 years into the future to test it. However, I doubt it will change the result, because junior coaching is also supposedly meant to simulate the invisible youth players, yet it's effect when changed is immediate - a ~40% reduction in PA when changed from '20' to '1'. Youth recruitment also reduces PA by ~25% when reduced from '20' to '1'. I'm pretty sure this whole invisible youth player thing is just a narrative to give the mechanics a nice realism feel. Think about this, if these players are already there and pre-developed in certain ways, then why do they all suddenly change when I reload from save and do the youth intake again?

With 'game importance' you can't really argue there is a possible delayed effect. But what I've thought is that perhaps it just reverts the setting when you play the game. Could be a bug, or just how the mechanic is intended to work (while unfortunately making the setting useless for people who edit FM). To try and counter this, I've previously tried setting the nation ranking points to '1', just in case nation ranking alters game importance, but I got the same results.

[KlaaZ]

1 minute ago, Wigwam said:

1. I've done it in multiple database loads. About 8-10. I did three for France, one for England, and several more for Germany.

2. Yes, I've thought about this. In the case of youth facilities, yes, it might be a delayed effect. Perhaps sometime I will do a load 5 years into the future to test it. However, I doubt it will change the result, because junior coaching is also supposedly meant to simulate the invisible youth players, yet it's effect when changed is immediate - a ~40% reduction in PA when changed from '20' to '1'. Youth recruitment also reduces PA by ~25% when reduced from '20' to '1'. I'm pretty sure this whole invisible youth player thing is just a narrative to give the mechanics a nice realism feel. Think about this, if these players are already there and pre-developed in certain ways, then why do they all suddenly change when I reload from save and do the youth intake again?

With 'game importance' you can't really argue there is a possible delayed effect. But what I've thought is that perhaps it just reverts the setting when you play the game. Could be a bug, or just how the mechanic is intended to work (while unfortunately making the setting useless for people who edit FM). To try and counter this, I've previously tried setting the nation ranking points to '1', just in case nation ranking alters game importance, but I got the same results.

1) You misinterpret me, I meant you've never even checked it for more than one consecutive season.  Let it run for 20-30 seasons, then see what happens season by season, and you'll have a trend.

2) Because the players may not be there but the generation that gets simulated at youth intake day might have been influenced by how your youth setup looking 5 years ago. That doesn't mean they're already set in stone then. 

And once again, as long as you have no clue as to the exact mechanics behind youth intake and regen generation, you're making way too many assumptions to get a clear and faultless conclusion. 

[Wigwam]

6 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

1) You misinterpret me, I meant you've never even checked it for more than one consecutive season.  Let it run for 20-30 seasons, then see what happens season by season, and you'll have a trend.

2) Because the players may not be there but the generation that gets simulated at youth intake day might have been influenced by how your youth setup looking 5 years ago. That doesn't mean they're already set in stone then. 

And once again, as long as you have no clue as to the exact mechanics behind youth intake and regen generation, you're making way too many assumptions to get a clear and faultless conclusion. 

Ok fair points, I'll do a save or two with multiple seasons and post back here when I'm done

[Wigwam]

4 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

1) You misinterpret me, I meant you've never even checked it for more than one consecutive season.  Let it run for 20-30 seasons, then see what happens season by season, and you'll have a trend.

2) Because the players may not be there but the generation that gets simulated at youth intake day might have been influenced by how your youth setup looking 5 years ago. That doesn't mean they're already set in stone then. 

And once again, as long as you have no clue as to the exact mechanics behind youth intake and regen generation, you're making way too many assumptions to get a clear and faultless conclusion. 

After letting it run for 5 years, I realized why I decided long ago to only do 1 year for each test. Running for more than one year allows for attributes such as youth recruitment to improve or degrade, making a comparison to previous years impossible.

In my test median PA seemed to decrease across the board, it's a pity I only had French leagues loaded. If I had a 'very important' nation to compare to, then I could check to see if this is a result of the game importance. According to Seb, game importance doesn't factor into newgen PA anyway, eh?

What does seem pretty conclusive is that youth facilities have no effect on newgen PA, even after 5 years.

Highlighted are teams that were given youth facilities of '1' at the start. Six samples were used for each team:

Lyon - 8051 rep / 20 TF / 7 YF / 18 JC / 18 YR = 124.5 average median PA
PSG - 8676 rep / 20 TF / 20 YF / 16 JC / 16 YR = 118.9 average median PA
Monaco - 8160 rep / 19 TF / 4 YF / 16 JC / 16 YR = 112.14 average median PA
Rennes - 6901 rep / 15 TF / 20 YF / 16 JC / 16 YR = 118.7 average median PA
Bordeaux - 7198 rep / 17 TF / 4 YF / 15 JC / 15 YR = 113 average median PA
Toulouse - 6583 rep / 14 TF / 15 YF / 15 JC / 15 YR = 114.33 average median PA

[Wigwam]

BTW another question for Seb:

The national personality attribute template was removed from FM. Was this actually removed from the mechanics, or just hidden?

And why was it removed? I don't think people who asked about it before ever got a proper answer

[MrDarrenPerry1]

On 14/11/2019 at 17:49, Seb Wassell said:

Not outside of the exceptions. Quality of your youth intake is dictated by the factors listed above.

I have spent millions to get the best youth facilities, everything is state of the art and exceptional, stocked the youth staff with highest reputation people, got the best attributes HoYD, and yet every single year my academy produces garbage kids. Something seriously wrong. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, MrDarrenPerry1 said:

I have spent millions to get the best youth facilities, everything is state of the art and exceptional, stocked the youth staff with highest reputation people, got the best attributes HoYD, and yet every single year my academy produces garbage kids. Something seriously wrong. 

Just like reality...
 

garbage player is very subjective. 

[Seb Wassell]

5 hours ago, MrDarrenPerry1 said:

I have spent millions to get the best youth facilities, everything is state of the art and exceptional, stocked the youth staff with highest reputation people, got the best attributes HoYD, and yet every single year my academy produces garbage kids. Something seriously wrong. 

"Garbage" is relative. If you're Real Madrid, it's gonna be hard to produce a player worthy of being considered "good enough". It also comes down to luck, generational talents are called that for a reason, you'd expect one per generation. Nothing is wrong.

[Spurs08]

On 12/12/2019 at 22:49, Wigwam said:

BTW another question for Seb:

The national personality attribute template was removed from FM. Was this actually removed from the mechanics, or just hidden?

And why was it removed? I don't think people who asked about it before ever got a proper answer

The PC brigade decided it was "racist", so if it does still exist at all I expect SI won't acknoledge it.

[Bakiano]

@Seb Wassell

I am managing Ajax, I am in my fifth season and there were four youth intakes. My HOYD have WWY 20, JPA 18 and JPP 19. He is also a perfectionist. Have state of the art youth facilities, both exceptional academy coaching and youth recruitment. 

 

And in four these youth intakes, I didn't have any player with more than 3.5 PA. 

I don't know what is the problem. 

[Grifty]

I’ve seen in a few screenshots that people have got the quick link tab under the Development Centre for their U23s/U18s, but I don’t have that on mine.

Is there something I should be selecting or dragging to get it on the hot bar in the left?

[JordanMilly]

3 hours ago, Bakiano said:

@Seb Wassell

I am managing Ajax, I am in my fifth season and there were four youth intakes. My HOYD have WWY 20, JPA 18 and JPP 19. He is also a perfectionist. Have state of the art youth facilities, both exceptional academy coaching and youth recruitment. 

 

And in four these youth intakes, I didn't have any player with more than 3.5 PA. 

I don't know what is the problem. 

So you've had players in your intake that, in terms of PA, are potential solid future players for the team, and if trained well would end up better than the average player at your club?

I don't see the problem.

[Bakiano]

1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

So you've had players in your intake that, in terms of PA, are potential solid future players for the team, and if trained well would end up better than the average player at your club?

I don't see the problem.

I woudn't rate 3.5 of PA a potential solid future players, and especially the fact that I am managing Ajax, who has amongst the best youth recruitment in Europe.

 

They have every year at least one WONDERKID who has at least 4.5 PA. 

 

And in my save, four yearly youth intake and I dont have one player who are in my first team or at least he has future.

 

This is the problem.

 

 

That wouldnt be a problem if I managed some average club in Lithuania.