Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[baris28]

58 dakika önce, sidslayer said:

It’s a game. It has limitations. To keep playing the same way and getting frustrated by it makes no sense to me.

Give SI constructive feedback, absolutely. But telling and showing them the faults over and over again, as if that’s all the ME has to offer is false. To say the ME is broken is false.

 

The problem about this post is it dictates. As I wrote yesterday  in a Napoleonic game some players were sensitive about uniform and regiment names. Despite realistic combat results. Well they are elite wargamers. Devs are generally polite and the community.

 

Possible there are also elite gamers here but how goals scored not important I don't understand.

[WelshMourinho]

1 hour ago, sidslayer said:

@akkm great post. Well explained.

So ... some of us think the ME is ok. Some (most it would seem) of us hate it. Some of us accept it’s a game. Some of us expect it to be real. Some of us play the game in a way that we know the game can handle. Some of us continue to bang our heads into a wall.

In an ideal world the game would cater for all philosophy’s equally. I never doubted that the game doesn’t. I know it doesn’t. I also know that I want to enjoy the game for what the game is. So I’ve got a tactic(s) that give me that. I’ve never played this type of tactic on FM before, as the one I’m playing now. But it’s working, it looks good and it’s balanced.

It’s a game. It has limitations. To keep playing the same way and getting frustrated by it makes no sense to me.

Give SI constructive feedback, absolutely. But telling and showing them the faults over and over again, as if that’s all the ME has to offer is false. To say the ME is broken is false.

I strongly disagree that multiple tactics don’t work or make the game look crazy. Each tactical style can be made to work, to a certain extent, but some are more realistically shown by the ME than others. Some require huge amounts of effort to get right and to look realistic. Others less so. It’s a game. It has limitations.

There are plenty of tactics that work, look fairly realistic and don’t cheese the game. And there are of course tactics that do the opposite. It’s our choice how we want to play the game.

While I agree with you that people have to accept that the match engine has limitations, I think a lack of through balls (in the style of possession football) to be a rather big limitation. Essentially my issue with it boils down to midfielders with "take more risks" hard coded into their game simply not actually taking any sort of risks. 

For example, a limitation I've largely grown to accept is cutbacks. Guardiola's City side scored so many goals from getting back post tap ins last season, and that sort of goal is gold dust in FM. That's a rather specific move though, and I can understand why that would be difficult to put into FM.

But an entire play style is a different story for me. I'd like to clarify that I don't think it's impossible to win with this style or anything like that. I agree the match engine isn't broken. You can have a lot of success with any sort of style on this game, as long as your tactic makes sense.  My frustration is the match engine often doesn't seem to interpret your instructions well. A team built around creative midfielders playing through balls wont score those types of goals, instead they'll dominate the ball and score via set pieces, or goals that develop from throw ins. The pre patch match engine was like this, even play out of defence didn't stop one of your CBs lumping it forward like prime Jerome Boateng to find a striker through on goal. 

The issue, for me at least, isn't that the ME is broken. It's that it doesn't interpret certain styles well atm, and so it makes your tactics feel like a waste of time.

Edited February 12, 2020 by WelshMourinho

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, baris28 said:

The problem about this post is it dictates. As I wrote yesterday  in a Napoleonic game some players were sensitive about uniform and regiment names. Despite realistic combat results. Well they are elite wargamers. Devs are generally polite and the community.

 

Possible there are also elite gamers here but how goals scored not important I don't understand.

I can only apologise if you feel i am being dictorial. I am just putting across my point of view. That the majority disagree with.

[roykela]

I really hope they manage to fix average ratings with the next update.
It was reported and acknowledged already in the Beta.

Looking at my GK ratings now, post-season and it doesn't look right.



In our 3rd season in the top flight, after getting promoted, we have finished 4th, 2nd and now 3rd.
2nd season in the top division we lost our first ever cup final. This season we won the cup for the first time.
My goalie set a new club record with 18 clean sheets (all competitions) which is the 2nd ever best for the league.
The record is 21 which was set this same season, with that GK managing 23 clean sheets overall.



But look at the ratings. My GK (1st pic) is on a 6.57 average rating for the 2nd best GK in the country?
The record holder's rating (2nd pic) is on a 6.52 average rating.

Something is terribly wrong with the ratings. I have reported it before and discussed it before so i really hope it'll get some TLC for the next update.
 

Edited February 12, 2020 by roykela

[Tyburn]

12 minutes ago, WelshMourinho said:

While I agree with you that people have to accept that the match engine has limitations, I think a lack of through balls (in the style of possession football) to be a rather big limitation. Essentially my issue with it boils down to midfielders with "take more risks" hard coded into their game simply not actually taking any sort of risks. 

For example, a limitation I've largely grown to accept is cutbacks. Guardiola's City side scored so many goals from getting back post tap ins last season, and that sort of goal is gold dust in FM. That's a rather specific move though, and I can understand why that would be difficult to put into FM.

But an entire play style is a different story for me. I'd like to clarify that I don't think it's impossible to win with this style or anything like that. I agree the match engine isn't broken. You can have a lot of success with any sort of style on this game, as long as your tactic makes sense.  My frustration is the match engine often doesn't seem to interpret your instructions well. A team built around creative midfielders playing through balls wont score those types of goals, instead they'll dominate the ball and score via set pieces, or goals that develop from throw ins. The pre patch match engine was like this, even play out of defence didn't stop one of your CBs lumping it forward like prime Jerome Boateng to find a striker through on goal. 

The issue, for me at least, isn't that the ME is broken. It's that it doesn't interpret certain styles well atm, and so it makes your tactics feel like a waste of time.

I agree with all of this. The ME doesn't interpret the instructions particularily well. Although the new ME is working a lot better in this regard. "Play out from the back" for instance, I am now seeing.

I am getting through balls though. But not from possession football as a base. The custom counter based tactic i'm using, when playing against a park the bus tactic basically becomes a possession tactic in the sense there is no space in behind, that my tactic is geared towards, so my players rotate the ball looking for an opening. Sometimes it's a cross, sometimes it's a through ball from the edge of the box. The styles of football that the ME seems to show incorrectly CAN be achieved, but they are wonky in the sense that they can be achieved by playing a style, that by name alone, is not what we would expect.

My tactic is based on a counter tactic. In reality, especially against the majority of narrow defending teams that pack the middle and sit back, it becomes more of a possession based tactic. Especially with "work the ball into box" ticked.

I've always found that to get my team to play in a certain way I have to basically create a custom tactic. I've never really used any of the preset bases. I have an idea that i want to create a counter based tactic for instance, that becomes a possession based tactic depending on the opposition, and i create it from scratch.

The pre sets are more trouble than they're worth in my opinion.

[theeyeofthetiger]

On 11/02/2020 at 09:44, sidslayer said:

Im playing a very simple 4123 tactic.

Interesting. Care to share player roles & setup as i'm finding the inconsistency baffling??

How can I go 11 WINS on the trot then lose next 7 with SAME tactics and players? Game feels very random this year, not enjoying it.

[Tyburn]

14 minutes ago, theeyeofthetiger said:

Interesting. Care to share player roles & setup as i'm finding the inconsistency baffling??

How can I go 11 WINS on the trot then lose next 7 with SAME tactics and players? Game feels very random this year, not enjoying it.

Sorry, I don't think this is really the place for it, but i've detailed my set up further up in the thread.

[bcereus]

People making the arguement that it's ok that the match engine forces you to play a certain way obviously have never played these games pre FM 19.

It's disingenuous to act like these have always been a problem, FM 18 and prior games allowed for a variety of play styles. They had their own issues but variety was never an issue.

The introduction of editable defensive width and line of engagement has basically broken aspects of the play styles  because now every team plays narrow and deep if they have time to get back in shape.

This is what makes lower tempos and possession football unviable. And also why there is such a wide range of opinions. Usually the people who want to play this style are the ones who notice these issues.

[Enrik01]

Is it me or 90% of goals are headers? Even though crosses are set to "low"?

[Etebaer]

That is not my experience, i have plenty of Goals coming from a diversity of situations scored with either Head or Feet.

Albeit i do still not have a big enough count of games played to have a final conclusion about that...

[lex311085]

44 minutes ago, Enrik01 said:

Is it me or 90% of goals are headers? Even though crosses are set to "low"?

Yep. it's getting boring. Everytime I watch AI highlights most of the goals are from headers. Theres no point in having a finishing attribute

[craigcwwe]

It definitely feels like the attacking side of the game needs a revamp to counter/balance the new defensive instructions that have been implemented into the game the past two versions.

Edited February 12, 2020 by craigcwwe

[Tyburn]

1 hour ago, bcereus said:

People making the arguement that it's ok that the match engine forces you to play a certain way obviously have never played these games pre FM 19.

It's disingenuous to act like these have always been a problem, FM 18 and prior games allowed for a variety of play styles. They had their own issues but variety was never an issue.

The introduction of editable defensive width and line of engagement has basically broken aspects of the play styles  because now every team plays narrow and deep if they have time to get back in shape.

This is what makes lower tempos and possession football unviable. And also why there is such a wide range of opinions. Usually the people who want to play this style are the ones who notice these issues.

Sorry, but what? The variety we have now is insane compared to CM00/01, when i first started playing the game. Back then you had nowhere near the level of options you do now.

No one said it was ok to be forced to play a certain way, only that some ways are more realistic with what the ME gives you.

Define possession football. My team has most of the ball. Is that not possession?

[thejay]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb WelshMourinho:

While I agree with you that people have to accept that the match engine has limitations, I think a lack of through balls (in the style of possession football) to be a rather big limitation. Essentially my issue with it boils down to midfielders with "take more risks" hard coded into their game simply not actually taking any sort of risks. 

For example, a limitation I've largely grown to accept is cutbacks. Guardiola's City side scored so many goals from getting back post tap ins last season, and that sort of goal is gold dust in FM. That's a rather specific move though, and I can understand why that would be difficult to put into FM.

But an entire play style is a different story for me. I'd like to clarify that I don't think it's impossible to win with this style or anything like that. I agree the match engine isn't broken. You can have a lot of success with any sort of style on this game, as long as your tactic makes sense.  My frustration is the match engine often doesn't seem to interpret your instructions well. A team built around creative midfielders playing through balls wont score those types of goals, instead they'll dominate the ball and score via set pieces, or goals that develop from throw ins. The pre patch match engine was like this, even play out of defence didn't stop one of your CBs lumping it forward like prime Jerome Boateng to find a striker through on goal. 

The issue, for me at least, isn't that the ME is broken. It's that it doesn't interpret certain styles well atm, and so it makes your tactics feel like a waste of time.

This 

It makes no sense, why I am successful because of set pieces or chaos in the box second ball or crosses if my tactics are not for that at all?

 

It's not about whether I am able to win games or not but how little tactics seem to influence the type of goals which I score. 

Whats the point of scouting creative midfielders or technical gifted wingers, strikers with ball playing ability, false nines, deep playmakers, ect.  When they don't seem to matter for the type of goals my team scorers. 

 

I am leading the league with my team built around possession and creativity but my goals come from set pieces and crosses.

This takes the fun out of it completely for me. 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by thejay

[thejay]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:

 

Define possession football. My team has most of the ball. Is that not possession?

No its not, just look at the set tactics descriptions what is meant with possession, its all there in the description. 

 

No need to start a fundamental discussion about football concepts, the base concepts are laid out in the game 

Edited February 12, 2020 by thejay

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, thejay said:

No its not, jus look at the set tactics descriptions what is meant with possession, its all there in the description. 

 

No need to start a fundamental discussion about football concepts, the base concepts are laid out in the game 

This is my point further up in the thread. The pre set decriptions are a guide that quite frankly are misleading. Create a custom tactic if you want to play possession football. The base pre sets do not completely marry up with what the ME shows you.

 

12 minutes ago, thejay said:

This 

It makes no sense, why I am successful because of set pieces or chaos in the box second ball or crosses if my tactics are not for that at all?

 

It's not about whether I am able to win games or not but how little tactics seem to influence the type of goals which I score. 

Whats the point of scouting creative midfielders or technical gifted winger, strikers with ball playing abilty, false nines, deep playmakers, ect.  When they don't seem to matter for the type of goals my team scorers. 

 

I am leading the league with my team built around possession and creativity but my goals come from set pieces and crosses.

This takes the fun out of it completely for me. 

 

This is a prime example of thinking your tactic is built around possession and creativity because the game tells you it is, when in fact the ME is showing you something completely different. Again, i would suggest creating a tactic from scratch.

[thejay]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:

This is my point further up in the thread. The pre set decriptions are a guide that quite frankly are misleading. Create a custom tactic if you want to play possession football. The base pre sets do not completely marry up with what the ME shows you.

 

 

The point was about the definition of attacking with possession not whether the set tactics achieve that.

 

You asked whether possession is just keeping the ball, it is not in this context.

 

Zitat

This is a prime example of thinking your tactic is built around possession and creativity because the game tells you it is, when in fact the ME is showing you something completely different. Again, i would suggest creating a tactic from scratch.

 

No I am basing my tactics on what I see during the match but the players dont behave like I want to behave. 

 

If I want to create chances on the counter when the defense isnt set up yet I would play like that and create a tactic accordingly .

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by thejay

[Welshace]

12 minutes ago, thejay said:

The point was about the definition of attacking with possession not whether the set tactics achieve that.

 

You asked whether possession is just keeping the ball, it is not in this context.

 

 

No I am basing my tactics on what I see during the match but the players dont behave like I want to behave. 

 

If I want to create chances on the counter when the defense isnt set up yet I would play like that and create a tactic accordingly .

 

 

Their point is that your possession based tactic is clearly not a possession based tactic based upon what you've told them... just because you clicked possession based tactic in the pre sets, doesn't mean your team will suit and follow that up with how you want to play.. you may have to customise your tactic to suit, for it to play how you want it too

[lex311085]

1 minute ago, Welshace said:

Their point is that your possession based tactic is clearly not a possession based tactic based upon what you've told them... just because you clicked possession based tactic in the pre sets, doesn't mean your team will suit and follow that up with how you want to play.. you may have to customise your tactic to suit, for it to play how you want it too

Then what's the point in having the pre set tactics as a guide

[Tyburn]

Just now, lex311085 said:

Then what's the point in having the pre set tactics as a guide

and this is THE major problem with the ME. Not the engine. The bloody guides ...

[thejay]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Welshace:

Their point is that your possession based tactic is clearly not a possession based tactic based upon what you've told them... just because you clicked possession based tactic in the pre sets, doesn't mean your team will suit and follow that up with how you want to play.. you may have to customise your tactic to suit, for it to play how you want it too

I am not sure where you get the impression from i just selected a standard tactic ?  I just used it as an example that this way of playing is advertised as part of the game and not some obscure thing only a few people actually want or think about.

 

 

[thejay]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:

and this is THE major problem with the ME. Not the engine. The bloody guides ...

no its not at all

 

please dont claim something which is just not true, this is not about  the guides but what the me is actually capable to represent .

 

Again I just used the examples of the description to highlight that such of way of playing should be possible in the game but it just isnt right now

 

 

But this hypothetical discussion can be made factually very quickly very simply , If you claim you have achieved such a style with counter intuitive instructions , thus proving only the descriptions are wrong, just post your tactics so we can test accordingly .

 

If thats the wrong thread just post a link to the tactic forum where you posted the tactic, very simple

Edited February 12, 2020 by thejay

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, thejay said:

no its not at all

 

please dont claim something which is just not true, this is not about  the guides but what the me is actually capable to represent .

 

Again I just used the examples of the description to highlight that such of way of playing should be possible in the game but it just isnt right now

Well I'm enjoying lots of possession, and i'm attacking and I'm scoring a variety of goals. I'm also ignoring all the tactical guides the game gives me.

Now how is this possible?

[thejay]

Gerade eben schrieb sidslayer:

Well I'm enjoying lots of possession, and i'm attacking and I'm scoring a variety of goals. I'm also ignoring all the tactical guides the game gives me.

Now how is this possible?

I  dont know, you show me ,post a link to your tactics 

 

Just remember the descriptions to know what i mean with possession football

 

 

So one of these which means not the majority of goals scored via quick transitions, crosses or set pieces, but by controlling the ball in the opponents half , passing and movement which drags the opponent out of position 

 

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, thejay said:

I  dont know, you show me ,post a link to your tactics 

 

Just remember the descriptions to know what i mean with possession football

 

 

So one of these which means not the majority of goals scored via quick transitions, crosses or set pieces, but by controlling the ball in the opponents half , passing and movement which drags the opponent out of position 

 

 

Why should I post my tactic to you? It is surely one of the more rewarding elements of the game to work out a tactic for yourself. I've explained it in great length in previous posts in this thread. I've offered advice on how I've mitigated the "issues" you're seeing. I've got nothing to prove.

Yeah, my tactic doesn't really fit into any of those boxes... because it's custom.

 

[bcereus]

1 hour ago, sidslayer said:

Sorry, but what? The variety we have now is insane compared to CM00/01, when i first started playing the game. Back then you had nowhere near the level of options you do now.

No one said it was ok to be forced to play a certain way, only that some ways are more realistic with what the ME gives you.

Define possession football. My team has most of the ball. Is that not possession?

So we're going to be pedantic to prove a point. Ok. Nobody said CM00/01, if you want to be pedantic then FM 16 onwards till FM 18.

Your second paragraph literally is being forced to do something, if one thing is more successful than another in this game to an extreme degree then the user gravitates towards that thing. Not only that but elements that were possible in previous FMs are no longer styles that work with the ME.

What do you mean define possession football, I specifically mentioned lower tempos and you grab the fact I said possession to start an argument. Talk about strawman.

Lower tempo styles are a major part of football and if your ME cannot replicate it or make it viable then there is something seriously wrong. It's made worse by the fact that it used to be viable, so it's not like we're asking for a whole new feature. It's a bug as far as I'm concerned. 

Finally SI themselves have tried to fix central play with patches which suggests they know it's a problem.

[Fosse]

Anybody else regularly conceding 2+ set pieces a game?

 

 

 

Just literally conceded a third as I typed this 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Fosse

[Nathozz]

32 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

 

Why should I post my tactic to you? It is surely one of the more rewarding elements of the game to work out a tactic for yourself. I've explained it in great length in previous posts in this thread. I've offered advice on how I've mitigated the "issues" you're seeing. I've got nothing to prove.

Yeah, my tactic doesn't really fit into any of those boxes... because it's custom.

 

If you are going to make a point please back it up with proof. Post your tactics so people can use them. 
 

It’s not even hard to post a YouTube video of these goals you are scoring that the majority are not seeing (through balls etc).

 

People are asking you for your tactics so they can see what you’re seeing maybe to increase enjoyment on their own game. 

 

[Tyburn]

2 minutes ago, bcereus said:

So we're going to be pedantic to prove a point. Ok. Nobody said CM00/01, if you want to be pedantic then FM 16 onwards till FM 18.

Your second paragraph literally is being forced to do something, if one thing is more successful than another in this game to an extreme degree then the user gravitates towards that thing. Not only that but elements that were possible in previous FMs are no longer styles that work with the ME.

What do you mean define possession football, I specifically mentioned lower tempos and you grab the fact I said possession to start an argument. Talk about strawman.

Lower tempo styles are a major part of football and if your ME cannot replicate it or make it viable then there is something seriously wrong. It's made worse by the fact that it used to be viable, so it's not like we're asking for a whole new feature. It's a bug as far as I'm concerned. 

Finally SI themselves have tried to fix central play with patches which suggests they know it's a problem.

My apologies. You said Pre Fm19. My mistake.

Haha. Strawman. Everytime i see this it's preceded with exactly that.

Which styles are you refering to that no longer work? Possession? It works. Lower tempo? Perhaps. Who plays lower tempo nowadays? No one i can think of in the Prem anyway. Still, I agree. It's part of football. It should be replicated in the game. It can probably work to some degree. Haven't tried it. Didn't comment on it for that reason.

Yeah, all the people who read the descriptions in the tactics creator are very upset that it's not being replicated in the ME so SI looked to rectify it.

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, Nathozz said:

If you are going to make a point please back it up with proof. Post your tactics so people can use them. 
 

It’s not even hard to post a YouTube video of these goals you are scoring that the majority are not seeing (through balls etc).

 

People are asking you for your tactics so they can see what you’re seeing maybe to increase enjoyment on their own game. 

 

I refer you to my earlier post.

[Welshace]

Keep in mind this is for sharing feedback about the game, not petty squabbling..

[Tyburn]

2 minutes ago, thejay said:

I hope your are not serious? 

 

If you are I learned a new Spanish word for people like you, vendehumos, very fitting. 

The English English variant is more abstract and involves oils and snakes. 

 

Bragging? I guess i must be.

If you want to call experience that then fine by me.

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, Welshace said:

Keep in mind this is for sharing feedback about the game, not petty squabbling..

Good point. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm out.

[MBarbaric]

4 ore fa, bcereus ha scritto:

The introduction of editable defensive width and line of engagement has basically broken aspects of the play styles  because

 

editable defensive line that regulates the width and height of the DLine is THE most important instruction in defensive phase. So KUDOS to SI for introducing it. 

4 ore fa, bcereus ha scritto:

now every team plays narrow and deep if they have time to get back in shape.

This is what makes lower tempos and possession football unviable. And also why there is such a wide range of opinions.

True that now every team plays narrow and deep if they have time to get back in shape. So KUDOS to SI on both points for trying to introduce realistic football behaviour.

Defence is still not up to par but at least SI made right moves to introduce more realistic behaviour. What actually makes lower tempo/possession oriented tactics unviable, is complete lack of off the ball movement in the offensive phase. The defending teams generally behave well, it is the team with the ball that is the culprit for poor ME. As akkm previously explained extremely well, passing decision, ability of players to play in tight spaces and off the ball movement are so limited that even only two fundamental defensive principles (hight/width of the D-Line + dropping behind the ball in defensive third) were able to put the offensive play completely off.

Also, central play issue exixts from at least FM16 and only became more and more evident as defensive bahaviour improved.

 

[akkm]

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

Also, central play issue exixts from at least FM16 and only became more and more evident as defensive bahaviour improved.

Great post as always but just wanted to highlight this as well...it absolutely has existed since then and as you point out it just become more evident

[Enrik01]

Halfway of first season with Inter, literally 90% of goals are headers. Not funny anymore

[bcereus]

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

editable defensive line that regulates the width and height of the DLine is THE most important instruction in defensive phase. So KUDOS to SI for introducing it. 

True that now every team plays narrow and deep if they have time to get back in shape. So KUDOS to SI on both points for trying to introduce realistic football behaviour.

Defence is still not up to par but at least SI made right moves to introduce more realistic behaviour. What actually makes lower tempo/possession oriented tactics unviable, is complete lack of off the ball movement in the offensive phase. The defending teams generally behave well, it is the team with the ball that is the culprit for poor ME. As akkm previously explained extremely well, passing decision, ability of players to play in tight spaces and off the ball movement are so limited that even only two fundamental defensive principles (hight/width of the D-Line + dropping behind the ball in defensive third) were able to put the offensive play completely off.

Also, central play issue exixts from at least FM16 and only became more and more evident as defensive bahaviour improved.

 

There is actually an issue with the defensive line being narrow, the problem is that they STAY narrow, realistically the defensive line of teams get moved about by the wingers position and or striker. I've seen movement by the wingers, striker or even midfielder but it doesn't attract players and so you end up with a static low block.

Another issue is that even if we have space outwide, the crosses almost always hits the first man with the new patch. It's to artificially control the amount of chances created per game.

It all leads to a terrible experience for a sect of players who want to play patient football.

I don't even mind if a lower team is incapable of doing this, but this doesn't work for any team regardless of quality.

 

[Quadrophenia88]

The problem is, loads of people who have had/are having success with FM20 are quick to jump to the defence of the game, especially the ME as in their mind they see no issues due to having a successful save. I also understand people not having success will also do the opposite but the truth is, this ME is poor hence the Beta patch, then full patch which have been released before the Feb update. Take it from me, I've won multiple leagues. domestic cups, promotions and I still see an issue with the ME despite having what are seen as "successful saves". It's not that the game is out to get us, it's not, because the horrendous mistakes works both ways, I have seen it go in my favor as well as against. That's the issue, the ME for me despite my success is very hard to watch at times to the point as I mentioned in a previous post, I feel like turning on commentary only. Simply put, there are things I have witnessed in the ME (for/against) which simply shouldn't be happening in 2020 especially after full release and multiple patches/updates.

This is why, I will be personally holding off on next years version until I find out the state of the ME.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Welshace said:

Keep in mind this is for sharing feedback about the game, not petty squabbling..

This. Just because someone might have a different view of the game doesn't mean people need to then spend their time repeatedly arguing their version is the universal truth. It's not and it doesn't make your point any more valid than anyone elses. 

[Muja]

Guys, I've made a test. 
I've also saved the pkm for this test, and I'll make a more comprehensive post in the bug/ME section of the forum, in the hope that it can help the devs to figure this out. 

For now, I'll just say I played a match while controlling both teams, one on the offensive, focusing play in the middle of the pitch, the other one defending high and wide.

And voila:


This is a fine example of the possession style of football, based on short passes and slow tempo. This is what some of us want our teams to do consistently.
Players patiently pass the ball to each other until one of the creative players find the chance for a beautiful killing pass.

I said "consistently" because that's the problem here. This kind of play is too rare. I've played two seasons and I've never seen it ONCE. I had to simulate a game against a wide, high defense for this to finally happen. 
And then the AMC, who's always struggled to get a decent rating until now, is finally making decisive passes and creating chances. My forward with good off-the-ball movements  and finishing skills finally puts them to good use. 

But let's watch the gif carefully, everybody... Does it seem to you like the red team is defending wide, or particularly high..?
It really doesn't. It's congested in the middle and getting very defensive. That's the whole point of this kind of possession style, you WANT to "cage" the opponents inside their half ot the field, because that's when this kind of magic can happen.

And yet the ME calculates that their defense is high because of the tactics settings, calculates that there's space behind the defense and then it decides that such a play is possible, and it happens.

Unfortunately this NEVER happens if the opponents's tactic is to sit deep. (It doesn't have anything to do with width, as I've made another test with the same team defending high and narrow, and this kind of play still happened).

The problem is that when a team is defending too deep, the ME calculates that there's no space behind them, that such a play isn't possible. Hence the players shoot from distance, or pass to the wingers, or lose the ball altogether. Hence why central creative player struggle to perform, while the best assist-men in the league are wingers and fullbacks.

Devs just need to find a way to make this calculations more in favour of through balls, so that yeah, a team defending deep is stronger against them, but cannot and will not totally prevent them. This kind of perfect defense isn't real.

In reality, when a team is pressured inside their own half for a whole match, they eventually tire, lose focus and/or make a mistake.
That's in the description of the "tiki-taka" style, too.
The problem lies in this sentence: "waiting for space to open up as opponents lose focus".
It simply never happens.






 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Muja
Added a line

[WelshMourinho]

Anyone finding the ME is blaming the wrong player for mistakes?

Had two recent incidents that suggests somethings up with it. First one was from kick off, the ball gets passed to my DCL, he turns and passes it to the DCR... who proceeds to dwell on the ball, gets tackled and it leads to a goal. For some reason the game tanks the DCL's rating and he goes on to have a poor game.

Second occurrence was my LB passing to the DCL, the DCL gets tackled after dwelling on the ball, the striker runs through and scores. The game blames the LB, his rating drops and he goes on to have a poor performance.

This isn't a case of an under hit pass or anything, the players in question will hold onto the ball for numerous seconds, get tackled but the game doesn't register it as their mistake. They don't face any rating drops, and it doesn't affect them for the rest of the game.

[FM1000]

53 minutes ago, Muja said:

Guys, I've made a test. 
I've also saved the pkm for this test, and I'll make a more comprehensive post in the bug/ME section of the forum, in the hope that it can help the devs to figure this out. 

For now, I'll just say I played a match while controlling both teams, one on the offensive, focusing play in the middle of the pitch, the other one defending high and wide.

And voila:


This is a fine example of the possession style of football, based on short passes and slow tempo. This is what some of us want our teams to do consistently.
Players patiently pass the ball to each other until one of the creative players find the chance for a beautiful killing pass.

I said "consistently" because that's the problem here. This kind of play is too rare. I've played two seasons and I've never seen it ONCE. I had to simulate a game against a wide, high defense for this to finally happen. 
And then the AMC, who's always struggled to get a decent rating until now, is finally making decisive passes and creating chances. My forward with good off-the-ball movements  and finishing skills finally puts them to good use. 

But let's watch the gif carefully, everybody... Does it seem to you like the red team is defending wide, or particularly high..?
It really doesn't. It's congested in the middle and getting very defensive. That's the whole point of this kind of possession style, you WANT to "cage" the opponents inside their half ot the field, because that's when this kind of magic can happen.

And yet the ME calculates that their defense is high because of the tactics settings, calculates that there's space behind the defense and then it decides that such a play is possible, and it happens.

Unfortunately this NEVER happens if the opponents's tactic is to sit deep. (It doesn't have anything to do with width, as I've made another test with the same team defending high and narrow, and this kind of play still happened).

The problem is that when a team is defending too deep, the ME calculates that there's no space behind them, that such a play isn't possible. Hence the players shoot from distance, or pass to the wingers, or lose the ball altogether. Hence why central creative player struggle to perform, while the best assist-men in the league are wingers and fullbacks.

Devs just need to find a way to make this calculations more in favour of through balls, so that yeah, a team defending deep is stronger against them, but cannot and will not totally prevent them. This kind of perfect defense isn't real.

In reality, when a team is pressured inside their own half for a whole match, they eventually tire, lose focus and/or make a mistake.
That's in the description of the "tiki-taka" style, too.
The problem lies in this sentence: "waiting for space to open up as opponents lose focus".
It simply never happens.






 

Well put, i would say that teams seem to never lose focus after defending 20 min in a row for example, just look at the recent Milan Inter derby, Milan was pushed back for 10 min in their own box and because their players have low concentration they lost focus on the conceded two goals after mistakes. Also stamina in FM every team can gengen press for 90+ minutes even with 60% player condition. 

[Pasonen]

2 hours ago, Muja said:

Guys, I've made a test. 
I've also saved the pkm for this test, and I'll make a more comprehensive post in the bug/ME section of the forum, in the hope that it can help the devs to figure this out. 

For now, I'll just say I played a match while controlling both teams, one on the offensive, focusing play in the middle of the pitch, the other one defending high and wide.

And voila:


This is a fine example of the possession style of football, based on short passes and slow tempo. This is what some of us want our teams to do consistently.
Players patiently pass the ball to each other until one of the creative players find the chance for a beautiful killing pass.

I said "consistently" because that's the problem here. This kind of play is too rare. I've played two seasons and I've never seen it ONCE. I had to simulate a game against a wide, high defense for this to finally happen. 
And then the AMC, who's always struggled to get a decent rating until now, is finally making decisive passes and creating chances. My forward with good off-the-ball movements  and finishing skills finally puts them to good use. 

But let's watch the gif carefully, everybody... Does it seem to you like the red team is defending wide, or particularly high..?
It really doesn't. It's congested in the middle and getting very defensive. That's the whole point of this kind of possession style, you WANT to "cage" the opponents inside their half ot the field, because that's when this kind of magic can happen.

And yet the ME calculates that their defense is high because of the tactics settings, calculates that there's space behind the defense and then it decides that such a play is possible, and it happens.

Unfortunately this NEVER happens if the opponents's tactic is to sit deep. (It doesn't have anything to do with width, as I've made another test with the same team defending high and narrow, and this kind of play still happened).

The problem is that when a team is defending too deep, the ME calculates that there's no space behind them, that such a play isn't possible. Hence the players shoot from distance, or pass to the wingers, or lose the ball altogether. Hence why central creative player struggle to perform, while the best assist-men in the league are wingers and fullbacks.

Devs just need to find a way to make this calculations more in favour of through balls, so that yeah, a team defending deep is stronger against them, but cannot and will not totally prevent them. This kind of perfect defense isn't real.

In reality, when a team is pressured inside their own half for a whole match, they eventually tire, lose focus and/or make a mistake.
That's in the description of the "tiki-taka" style, too.
The problem lies in this sentence: "waiting for space to open up as opponents lose focus".
It simply never happens.






 

One reason this happens too rarely is if you look st's movement in the video they dont move or even stand in channels and thats why defenders got easy job just standing next to them. Thats just one big reason. Watch when pass comes to left winger and that stretches the defline and theres space between dcr-dr. St doesnt even blink. And when st gets the pass he was not even then well positioned.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Pasonen

[chris31k]

I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

 

[themadsheep2001]

48 minutes ago, chris31k said:

I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

 

The me doesn't calculate that way. It doesn't calculate outcomes and work backwards

Even though the goal is good, the movement there from the forwards isn't amazing. Which is why it looks like defenders concentration isn't being broken: they're not actually having much asked of them

Defending in FM is getting increasingly better, but attacking isn't increasing at the same rate. 

It's a good example of both a good goal but also a symptom of where FM can improve going forwards

[kandersson]

@Muja that looks like a through ball from AMC to striker in a 4312... the holy grail of FM . Very interesting analysis, hopefully this can help ME improvement.

[jc577]

Beginning to get extremely tired of the number of set pieces goals scored in this ME. 

[dannyfc]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The me doesn't calculate that way. It doesn't calculate outcomes and work backwards

Even though the goal is good, the movement there from the forwards isn't amazing. Which is why it looks like defenders concentration isn't being broken: they're not actually having much asked of them

Defending in FM is getting increasingly better, but attacking isn't increasing at the same rate. 

It's a good example of both a good goal but also a symptom of where FM can improve going forwards

Regarding Striker movement, agree with what you say but I'd argue it's regressed rather than lack of progression. 

 

In previous games you'd frequently see a F9 or DLP drop into the half space to link the play. Or floating around the box if free role was ticked. The only major issue was a lack of lateral movement, but even then it was better than now. 

 

The tendency in the last two games to stay static and central almost seems like a glitch in comparison. I'm not sure what's happened as there's clear evidence of good movement in older games so the code must already exist. 

[Daisuke Shirou]

It feels like 90% of the goals I score/concede are from set pieces, it's getting really repetitive. Central play also seems lacking.

[Svenc]

8 hours ago, Pasonen said:

 Watch when pass comes to left winger and that stretches the defline and theres space between dcr-dr. St doesnt even blink. And when st gets the pass he was not even then well positioned.

Another really crucial pass is the one back to the deeper midfielder Bandinelli (25), forcing the defenders centrally to push up and engage again, unlocking the space between the lines for the AMC in the first place. I've argued this for a while, but if the (Possession) pre-sets and similar don't absolutely lock one midfielder to stay deeper, they're failure by design -- even once all is patched.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Svenc