Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[Novem9]

This is my new record I guess 

Albacete Balompié v Almería.pkm

[Tiger666]

35 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

This is my new record I guess 

Albacete Balompié v Almería.pkm 176.17 kB · 0 downloads

Seems to also be the record

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/may/16/what-is-the-most-times-a-team-has-hit-the-woodwork-in-one-game-the-knowledge

[One]

Well I've really tried to enjoy this game with the current match engine but I can no longer put up with it.

I really hope things improve in patch 20.3. If it doesn't then I'm afraid you've just lost a loyal customer (bought every game since Championship Manager 01/02). No longer buying the game until things improve drastically. I'm done for now.

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

As a further follow-up: RE- set piece attempts inflating the Shots On Target stats AKA how can you struggle to score with having 25 shots on target?! 


Been forwarded another pkm, a match with ~25 Shots On Target, yet "but" two Goals. This time I'm doing it a little differently.

First, to quote this Epic Research™: 
 

 

Sven, are all of these analyses pro-FM or pro-FM player?

I think you're saying that FM gives away far too many chances & goals from set-pieces so we see plenty of set-piece scramble scruffy goals  & I agree 

[Iwabik]

Is Champions League Group Stage prize money static? Or does it change? If so, where can I find how much cash would I get after getting to CL?

[Svenc]

53 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Sven, are all of these analyses pro-FM or pro-FM player?

I think you're saying that FM gives away far too many chances & goals from set-pieces so we see plenty of set-piece scramble scruffy goals  & I agree 

Bit of both, probably, but at the core lies a game flaw to me.

Pro FM-Player insofar :From my end it's been too easy to get shots on target from the set piece ever since about at least FM15. They may also easily go on target, but aro also typically saved. FM probably has too many set pieces in General; see how top teams despite camping in the opposition half all season average no more than 8 corners to begin with IRL. Prior, whenever somebody posted a match of dozens of SOT but little goals the set pieces were a sure bet!

Pro FM insofar that: That's also a lot of SOT purely from the set piece. And nobody is taking a critical look at what's actually going on apparently. What is a set piece, to simplify? An open play attack beforehand getting defended in some way. Addmitedly, the game makes this super busy work, see my "Analysis", as simple as it is. Going through every single shot isn't fun and takes a lot of time. That's such simple data that it could be easily collected in-game as a stat, or provided in the analysis tool. SI only Need to "define" where a set piece play ends and where it starts. All of the above shots were immediately from the set piece (throw in, indirect free kick, Corner).

My main point is to rise some awareness, also for SI, mind. Naturally, both of the above combined PLUS the 1vs1s is frustration guaranteed. (Unless on FM19, for which Players had found magically efficient set piece exploits, so set piece to the Rescue every week even if all actual attacks came to zilch)  

Edited December 28, 2019 by Svenc

[Zool]

Hey All .. although i can see there has been no ME upgrades as of yet   has some work been put into the animations im noticing some stuff  ive never seen before  - i must say i have went  to very highest settings  option ! even the  camera  in tv mode  performing hell lot  better very impressed with and finally stays at  what height  and zoom that is selected now but them long balls though grrr ;(

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zool
missed a well known issue that is under review

[Novem9]

It was unexpected decision 

[Dagenham_Dave]

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I can understand that this can be confusing for some, naming the toned down version of FM that comes with the full fat FM the same as the mobile version, that are two separate versions, I never understood the name change from classic  

It's not even the same as the mobile version. FM Mobile is a completely different game altogether.

Basically there is

Full fat FM for PC/Stadia

FM Touch for PC (previously FM Classic)

FM Touch for handhelds (Apart from a few features, same game as FM Touch for PC)

FM Touch for Switch (see above)

FM Mobile, a true 'watered down' version of the game that bears little resemblance to the main or classic (touch) modes. 

Clear as day 

 

[Pasonen]

32 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

It was unexpected decision 

 

Nice one-two pass.

[DiasV]

Hi.

 

This is partly a suggestion and partly a question.

 

When you go into "world" - then managers - the first sorting you get is "general" - this is as far as I can see nothing more than a listing of all managers. (then you can sort by trophies, time at club etc. 

 

Could you not change the general into something useful - my suggestion would be to change it to a "reputation" list, so that we can see where in the line regarding world reputation as a manager we are. 

Should be easy to code and would be much more fun than just having a "general" sorting without any benefits.

[Cro-cop]

I will have to stop playing this game for a while. In my opinion, its not in good state currently which is such a shame because during beta i thought that with few issues sorted out this will be amazing game. It still can be. But these long balls over defence is just too much. No matter how i play, no matter how good my players are. Or how good opposition is.

Defenders just stop running after long balls until its too late. The only way i could stop this was to play with low defensive line, which is the way i dont want to play. I also tried different styles and most chances  were created by long balls over the top. So it goes both ways, AI and my tactics. Of course, i admit i am not the best at setting up tactics, i dont have the best understanding of the game,but i think this is a bit too much. And reading this forum, the only solution is to play with low defensive line. At least in my experience. But again, thats not how i want my team to play

And also my biggest issue for years now, newgens. Why are there so many wingers, defensive full backs, why are they so physically good (just examples)? This year again, nothing seems to be done about it. And i am surprised that such a small number of people dont see an issue with this.

What makes me frustrated the most is the thing that you went so far with this game over the years, it became so good and detailed, you can play it as you like. You can choose what you want to do, what you want your staff to do. So many positive things, little details that makes this game great. And yet i cant get myself to continue, even though i really want to, because of these issues above.

The thing i like the most about FM20 is the club vision. Everything makes more sense with it. It feels right. It feels like you actually have a boss, someone in charge of you who will give you tasks you need to accomplish. Also development centre makes the game more clean and your youth players are much easier to follow. So well done for that

Lets hope new patch, whenever it comes out, will sort these few issues.

[harrycarrie]

Finding the current ME very poor. I've now rolled it back to the Beta build and it plays far more better. Some lovely attacking football.

[zachalxnder]

Just now, harrycarrie said:

Finding the current ME very poor. I've now rolled it back to the Beta build and it plays far more better. Some lovely attacking football.

How so?

[harrycarrie]

1 minute ago, zachalxnder said:

How so?

I don't think its my place to say how openly on here

 

PMs are welcome however. If you don't have the original beta files, you can't roll back.

 

Loving it, however:

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by harrycarrie

[zachalxnder]

1 minute ago, harrycarrie said:

I don't think its my place to say how openly on here

 

PMs are welcome however. If you don't have the original beta files, you can't however.

 

Loving it, however:

 

Got ya

[enigmatic]

6 hours ago, Svenc said:

Bit of both, probably, but at the core lies a game flaw to me.

Pro FM-Player insofar :From my end it's been too easy to get shots on target from the set piece ever since about at least FM15. They may also easily go on target, but aro also typically saved. FM probably has too many set pieces in General; see how top teams despite camping in the opposition half all season average no more than 8 corners to begin with IRL. Prior, whenever somebody posted a match of dozens of SOT but little goals the set pieces were a sure bet!

One of the main things is the good old fashioned "it's your tactics". Or more precisely, it's the fact that tactics are set up to ensure that people always throw their defenders forward and whip the ball into the middle, and it's not really set up to play short, conservative ball-retaining corners sides often do when they've got a lead never mind the timewaste corners real sides often do late in a game they're defending a one goal lead in. So not only do you get more corners, but you're also trying to convert all of them which real teams [conversion rate ~3%] don't...

[WilltheWolf92]

Is the stadia version very different than the steam version?

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, harrycarrie said:

I don't think its my place to say how openly on here

 

PMs are welcome however. If you don't have the original beta files, you can't roll back.

 

Loving it, however:

 

If this is supposed to show the superiority of the Beta builds it falls kinda short. I'm not the kind of player admittedly though for which "tonking decent sides away 5-0" means good ME build, and vice versa though.  
 

 

30 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

One of the main things is the good old fashioned "it's your tactics". Or more precisely, it's the fact that tactics are set up to ensure that people always throw their defenders forward and whip the ball into the middle, and it's not really set up to play short, conservative ball-retaining corners sides often do when they've got a lead never mind the timewaste corners real sides often do late in a game they're defending a one goal lead in. So not only do you get more corners, but you're also trying to convert all of them which real teams [conversion rate ~3%] don't...

I agree that some tactics, in particular popular downloads, are notoriously bad for this. They make it even easier for a side to foul, deflect or clear. Still this is between AI vs AI as well, plus you'll struggle to ever see matches like this on your end too (Ratio of open Play attempts vs set piece attempts). https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1190196/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2017-2018-Liverpool-Burnley This isn't data readily avilable, but I'd bet that if SI would compare their AI soak testing data to real football, they'd find a big difference in set piece data right here. Would have been doing so for a couple releases already, perhaps going straight back to the Champman years.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Svenc

[Dkfootball]

I mean seriously. 

[harrycarrie]

Just now, Svenc said:

If this is supposed to show the superiority of the Beta builds it falls kinda short. I'm not the kind of player admittedly though for which "tonking decent sides away 5-0" means good ME build, and vice versa though.  

Realism, for me, is long out the window of what I want from FM

 

Been playing since CM2 and devoted many hours to many serious careers. I just play every match at max attacking these days due to time issues so heart attack football is my love lol

[enigmatic]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I agree that some tactics, in particular popular downloads, are notoriously bad for this. They make it even easier for a side to foul, deflect or clear. Still this is between AI vs AI as well, plus you'll struggle to ever see matches like this on your end too (Ratio of open Play attempts vs set piece attempts). https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1190196/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2017-2018-Liverpool-Burnley

AI vs AI is non-stop trying to score from corners too. Those side won't do infamous marking bug exploits, but the AI simply isn't designed to do what real sides often do and use corners as a way of wasting time or at least keeping hold of the ball without bothering to throw defenders forward when they're already leading

[Svenc]

9 minutes ago, Dkfootball said:

I mean seriously. 

Be my guest. 
 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/503206-football-manager-2020-feedback-thread/page/95/?tab=comments#comment-12199443

[janrzm]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

If this is supposed to show the superiority of the Beta builds it falls kinda short. I'm not the kind of player admittedly though for which "tonking decent sides away 5-0" means good ME build, and vice versa though.  
 

I was just about to say the same. I've voiced my frustrations with the current ME but my benchmark for a good ME is realism, not just being able to batter all opposition. I can't think of much worse. 

[Maldini's Heir]

This has been a problem for years but CBs and DMs should not be the players who should be getting tired easily, It should be the attackers particularly if you play with one striker. Strikers get rotated all of the time. Defenders less so (although I accept that's more of a thing these days). But still CBs and DMs don't run as much and shouldn't constantly be getting jaded while my striker is like some 11 year old.

[Maldini's Heir]

Feedback. Can the game just bring the smallest little bit of joy to our lives?

Does everything have to go against the player?

Does it have to be endless frustrations.

"Oh that was unlucky. I hit the post again. If it wasn't so predictable I'd be more disappointed".

So what's the deal?

Cause us to become frustrated so we do something radical with our tactics or shout at our players?

Is that the game we're playing?

Keep your cool while the game winds you up endlessly so that when you do win it's bit meh....

3 seasons in and I haven't punch the air yet. We need more joy in this game. It's supposed to be fun. Life is frustrating. Games are supposed to be escapism.

[IrrelevantLion]

30 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Feedback. Can the game just bring the smallest little bit of joy to our lives?

Does everything have to go against the player?

Does it have to be endless frustrations.

"Oh that was unlucky. I hit the post again. If it wasn't so predictable I'd be more disappointed".

So what's the deal?

Cause us to become frustrated so we do something radical with our tactics or shout at our players?

Is that the game we're playing?

Keep your cool while the game winds you up endlessly so that when you do win it's bit meh....

3 seasons in and I haven't punch the air yet. We need more joy in this game. It's supposed to be fun. Life is frustrating. Games are supposed to be escapism.

Great point. Games are meant to be enjoyable. Life sucks enough to feel like you suck at FM or that the game is trying to frustrate you. I took some time away from the game recently to play other strategy games. Came back to the same issues. Why bother? 

[autohoratio]

Friendly matches in FM are really unenjoyable. No point to even trying to test out tactic variations because 5+ players will have Complacent/Uninterested Body Language, there is barely any off the ball movement while in possession, the ball carrier can dribble almost across the entire pitch because the defenders are too complacent to defend as a unit/press/restrict the space they can run into. "Dribble less" instruction does very little if anything. "Demand More" shout does nothing other than change a few players' body language to "Focused after Feedback" for 8 minutes (nothing about their performance changes) while a couple of other players get "Pressured by the Feedback" instead. "Concentrate" shout has similarly little effect. The same goes for telling them at half time "You were playing lazily out there, you need to work a lot harder if you want to be in the team for competitive matches" - no long term effect apart, no short term effect from a couple of reactions in the team talk. All of this means friendlies are useless for determining your starting XI because the level of performance is so low, useless for giving chances to impress to third/fourth-choice players and useless for getting a tactic working ahead of the season. All they're good for is as an income stream and getting players up to fitness so I may as well just delegate them to my AssMan...

I really hope FM21 addresses complacency in friendly matches, and introduces things like being able to give players warnings for not putting in effort on the pitch or interaction options to tell them they'll be dropped if they continue to show complacency and lack of effort. Methods to enforce a mentality of requiring the maximum on the pitch into the team, because there just aren't any ways in the game.

[Maldini's Heir]

Why do I want to play game where every time the other team goes down to ten men, my team concedes a last minute equaliser?

A last minute equaliser which followed a last minute equaliser a few matches ago?

Last minute equalisers which have cost me the title?

Just cause'. 

My team has the best defensive record in the league. But the last thing I want to do is play against 10 men. It's fine. I've re-started because I have decided it's your mistake not mine. And miraculously after my re-start my team is suddenly capable of seeing out the match against 11 men this time. Everyone knows - 10 men always have the advantage. 

[ian_mandagie]

I know it’s not important as the 1v1 bug or any match engine issues, but did anybody notice there is something weird at the end of the match when the final whistle goes?

In FM 19, we’ll have some spare time on the pitch before the match stopped after the final whistle. But in FM 20, everything is going too fast to ended after the whistle.

I hope it will also be fixed because what we love about FM is the whole experience of the game.

 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

 Everyone knows - 10 men always have the advantage. 

For all the genuine flaws: Speak for yourself on that one, please. The AI in tendency always makes a formational switch after a sending off. There is a player less somewhere. That's the area where your edge is/should be. 

What's next:

Everybody knows - you always lose to the bottom of the table? 

 

Feature request: tactical assistant manager proper (AKA Henk ten Cates for your Rijkaards).

Edited December 29, 2019 by Svenc

[Miravlix]

So I ask the board to extend the number of coaches for the senior team and get it.

 

Then I ask the board to extend the number of coaches for the B team and instead the game extend the number of senior team coaches. Great I can now get an unlimited number of coaches because asking for B team staff is never going to look bad when it's applied to the senior team.

 

Another problem because B team is broken and even while I started bug reporting it years ago, FM20 has just made everything worse, with as far as I can tell ZERO effort by SI to do anything to fix it.

[CFuller]

5 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Why do I want to play game where every time the other team goes down to ten men, my team concedes a last minute equaliser?

A last minute equaliser which followed a last minute equaliser a few matches ago?

Last minute equalisers which have cost me the title?

Just cause'. 

My team has the best defensive record in the league. But the last thing I want to do is play against 10 men. It's fine. I've re-started because I have decided it's your mistake not mine. And miraculously after my re-start my team is suddenly capable of seeing out the match against 11 men this time. Everyone knows - 10 men always have the advantage. 

I'm sorry, but if your team routinely falters against 10 men, then that is more likely to be YOUR problem than the game's.

How do you react when the opposition has a player sent off? Do you look to control the game with your extra man and exploit any space the opposition leave (as Svenc suggests you should)? Or do you just throw players into attack against a team whose best hope is to sit back and then try to strike on the counter?

I'm not straight up saying, "It's your tactics." I'm just saying, "This might be one for the tactics forum."

Edited December 29, 2019 by CFuller

[Svenc]

32 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I'm not straight up saying, "It's your tactics." I'm just saying, "This might be one for the tactics forum."

Don't be shy. Because it absolutely is the tactics once a repeating pattern. And with tactics I mean tactics and tactics alone.


Actually, untrue. It's also THEIR tactics. If the AI wouldn't go into attacking mode with little time left to play, the repeat comeback would not happen.

And, to go into "pro FM-Player" mode again: FM is the only game I've ever played in which you can be generally successful without understanding the slightest thing about it -- in particular its match management parts. That's partly a game flaw -- usually you play and learn something during the experience. But on FM the preamble of "Having played since CM" virtually means zero. It's partly realistic simulation.  Even Maradona's structrually weak and decidedly split Argentina, with half the team barely defending at all, almost got the stage of last four of a World Cup as Messi et all came to the rescue, after all.  

Edited December 29, 2019 by Svenc

[Mitja]

16 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Don't be shy. Because it absolutely is the tactics once a repeating pattern. And with tactics I mean tactics and tactics alone.


Actually, untrue. It's also THEIR tactics. If the AI wouldn't go into attacking mode with little time left to play, the repeat comeback would not happen.

And, to go into "pro FM-Player" mode again: FM is the only game I've ever played in which you can be generally successful without understanding the slightest thing about it -- in particular its match management parts. That's partly a game flaw -- usually you play and learn something during the experience. But on FM the preamble of "Having played since CM" virtually means zero. It's partly realistic simulation.  Even Maradona's structrually weak and decidedly split Argentina, with half the team barely defending at all, almost got the stage of last four of a World Cup as Messi et all came to the rescue, after all.  

Yeah how many people actually have plan b or c? And I mean fluid tactical alternative. Jugding by posts in tactical forum those three tactical slots are never even mentioned. Its all about one tactics. Compare that to AI which will use all mentalities and thus different tactics sometimes even in single game. It maybe games response to where is yours tactical flexibility?

Edited December 29, 2019 by Mitja

[Svenc]

10 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Yeah how many people actually have plan b or c? And I mean fluid tactical alternative. Jugding by posts in tactical forum those three tactical slots are never even mentioned. Its all about one tactics. Compare that to AI which will use all mentalities and thus different tactics sometimes even in single game. 

It's one of the more puzzling parts of the tactical subforums for me, actually. It's always about that one base system, which is fine. Like: "Here's my tacticz." However, unless somebody would find a way to field like 30 outfield players, every tactic does some things well and some things badly. You simply can't cover all areas of the pitch at any one time to begin with… and there's also something to be said about the kind of play in general to be influenced. Pressing on FM16/17ish was this weak, you could go months of in-game time without ever conceding an opposition comeback by playing keep-ball deep on the pitch in the latter stages / whenever you took a lead (naturally bit of a game flaw as well).  

Edited December 29, 2019 by Svenc

[Maldini's Heir]

1 hour ago, CFuller said:

I'm sorry, but if your team routinely falters against 10 men, then that is more likely to be YOUR problem than the game's.

How do you react when the opposition has a player sent off? Do you look to control the game with your extra man and exploit any space the opposition leave (as Svenc suggests you should)? Or do you just throw players into attack against a team whose best hope is to sit back and then try to strike on the counter?

I'm not straight up saying, "It's your tactics." I'm just saying, "This might be one for the tactics forum."

Hitting the post 3 times is my problem as well.

And re-starting the game remarkably made the problem go away.

I wish all problems were like that.

I’m winning titles. Just thoroughly not enjoying myself in the process.

[Maldini's Heir]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Yeah how many people actually have plan b or c? And I mean fluid tactical alternative. Jugding by posts in tactical forum those three tactical slots are never even mentioned. Its all about one tactics. Compare that to AI which will use all mentalities and thus different tactics sometimes even in single game. It maybe games response to where is yours tactical flexibility?

Me. I have a plan A, B and C but find myself spending most games playing a defensive formation lest I dare leave my CBs exposed for the inevitable ball over the top.

I’m winning tittles and wouldn’t mind losing or drawing more games. My issue is the manner of it. 

The hilarious thing (as in ha ha, you had to be there) when they got a man sent off they had no right winger so I concentrated my attacks down the left......and guess what?

I attacked down the right and scored!

And then conceded a goal in the last minute. Just cause.

[Maldini's Heir]

Do tactics play any role in this game?

I have set up all my deep free kicks so have all my defenders back and for the free kicks to be taken short but I don’t think I’ve seen a single short free kick.

I’ve set up my team to play Cautious, Short Passes, with Work the Ball into the box and yet my team constantly hits balls over the top for my strikers to miss 1v1s.

Throw ins are set for quick ones and I take long ones.

As for Team Talks: “don’t get complacent“ means “get complacent”; and “they might be down to ten men but don’t let your levels drop” means “hit the post 3 times and concede a last minute goal” (Are they sponsored by Apple? Do they want me to smash my computer against the wall?).

[Svenc]

Unfortunately, reloading until you luck out also isn't quite the superior learning experience.  

[CFuller]

If playing a video game gives you even the slightest urge to smash your computer against the wall, maybe you should stop playing it.

[Dagenham_Dave]

11 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

The hilarious thing (as in ha ha, you had to be there) when they got a man sent off they had no right winger so I concentrated my attacks down the left......and guess what?

I attacked down the right and scored!

 

And? Encouraging your players to play down a certain side doesn't mean they will never attack down the other side. Your issue seems to be that you think instructions are binary. Team and player instructions are suggestions, and the players (depending on a number of factors) will attempt to adhere to them where possible. However, there are so many variables involved, it's never going to be an exact science, and neither it should be. 

This, along with your constant reloading until you win makes me feel as though this game really isn't for you. 

[Novem9]

@Neil Brock Is it really a feature that replaces old system of medal by 10 games which I asked about? 

[Dkfootball]

13 hours ago, Svenc said:

Be my guest. 
 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/503206-football-manager-2020-feedback-thread/page/95/?tab=comments#comment-12199443

I've read that, 12 clear cut chances 2 goals. It's not just a one off either, it happens so much in FM20. They either need to look at how CCC are recorded, I.e are they recording things as CCC which just aren't? Or Is the finishing from players just poor? 

But ok, pretend it's not an issue

[kombinat13]

i do not know if somebody allready wrote about it but i trained 4 - 5 units of finishing created chances a week the last 8 matches of the end of the season to test if something is changing. and i was surprised that my finishing of the 100 % chances got a lot better.

so i do not know if this is just a coincident. but i think training could be a way to make it a bit better.

Edited December 29, 2019 by kombinat13

[Neil Harris]

Can we have the Malaysian Super League and maybe the Malaysian Premier League as well? Recently one of the teams (Johor Darul Takzim) have been getting more famous, qualified for the AFC Champions League and a LOT of my friends would love the opportunity to play their favorite teams of that league and maybe do a Road to Glory, and start their journey as a manager there as well. Thanks!!

[Rashidi]

6 minutes ago, Neil Harris said:

Can we have the Malaysian Super League and maybe the Malaysian Premier League as well? Recently one of the teams (Johor Darul Takzim) have been getting more famous, qualified for the AFC Champions League and a LOT of my friends would love the opportunity to play their favorite teams of that league and maybe do a Road to Glory, and start their journey as a manager there as well. Thanks!!

They are in the game. You can play as JDT or Sarawak, JDT is in the Super League and Sarawak is in the premier league.

[Neil Harris]

1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

They are in the game. You can play as JDT or Sarawak, JDT is in the Super League and Sarawak is in the premier league.

Ah okok sorry. Thanks

[Johnny Ace]

41 minutes ago, Dkfootball said:

I've read that, 12 clear cut chances 2 goals. It's not just a one off either, it happens so much in FM20. They either need to look at how CCC are recorded, I.e are they recording things as CCC which just aren't? Or Is the finishing from players just poor? 

But ok, pretend it's not an issue

...or, they could balance the ME to create way less of these chances 

[Martini]

I've been playing FM since decades but every year I get the feeling that attributes don't matter and all that matters are two things, current ability and the killer tactic, just find the players with the highest current ability (doesn't matter if they can't pass or score anyway) and find the killer tactics for the current year and there you go, club world champion x 5, every year I feel that tactics and player attributes mean less and less (remember without the ball tactics?), you can't create a good passing team or tackling defensive team, attributes won't matter at all, current ability is everything.

End of rant.