Again about the ME: watching AI match

[Delvi]

I invite everyone to watch some AI match, where player is not involved. I've noticed much less balls over CB and 1 vs 1. A representation much closer to real football. I'm speaking about extended highlights and in different leagues (Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Champions League).

I watched only 3-4 games, it would be interesting to know the opinion of someone else.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Delvi

[KUBI]

If so, it would be interesting to know which tactics the AI teams using.

[Delvi]

I think there are different formations, as user can set (4-4-2, 3-5-2, etc) and then there are parameters which are indicated in the pre-game editor: depht, sitting back, pressing etc going from 1 to 20. I guess these are corresponding to the instructions we give in the tactic section, BUT my question is this: the boundaries are the same?

[tat501]

I reckon everyone is playing too high a defensive line.  I'm not getting this many balls over the top until late in games when I'm pressing for a goal and trying to pin them in their own half.

[KUBI]

From statistics and uploaded saves/pkms  they know at SI that human managers play a lot more attacking football than an average real manager, this can have an influence at what you see in the ME. 
It would be interesting if some slow, defensive tactics counterparts some of the issues raised.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Personally, my defensive line height is fluid, and is dependent on how the opposition line up, the players they have, and my own overall mentality. It changes regularly, sometimes even in game if I'm seeing more over the top passes than I'd like. One of the things I like most about this match engine is that it rewards tinkering more than previous editions, but more harshly punishes bad decisions. Which is how it should be, really. 

I know a lot of people disagree, but I do think many of the issues people are losing their heads over this year are, for the most part, tactical. And it's because of how much more reactive this edition of the engine is. You don't get away with a lot of stuff you used to. 

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, Delvi said:

BUT my question is this: the boundaries are the same?

Yes, they are. The options are all the same. I've reported AI tactical shenanigans in the past (which hurt their performance).The attributes in the editor aren't used as "absolutes", e.g. a manager with a high value in d-line always uses the most aggressive line. They are used as tendencies. They are part of the dynamic AI decision making process. To simplify, if an AI man targets a sound win, they play more expansive, attacking football. Vice versa if they target a draw / try to not get trashed. They also make adjustments according to the scoreline during a match -- and the time left on the clock, e.g. still an entire half left to play /  but ten minutes to go. An AI man with an aggressive value in d-line would typically always favor more aggressive lines, however it's not as simple as "If d-line = say 20, then AI Manager always sets the most aggressive line possible".

It's pretty well recorded, well every year, that some tactical combinations highlight ME issues more, some less. That's why after the release there are much more reports about weird stuff happening.  If I were SI, I would have long narrowed the corridor down as to possible combinations, no less as there's too much "nonsense" possible in general. If the argument is "realism" (and it always is), then the game should be balanced with keeping finite, "realistic" tactics into account rather than a near infinite amount of combinations. I think it would make the ME development much more stable and robust in the long-term too (and the AI more robust...). 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Svenc

[Delvi]

4 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

Yes, they are. I've reported AI tactical shenanigans in the past (part of that cost their performance).

Yes, they are. I've reported AI tactical shenanigans in the past (part of that cost their performance).The Attributes in the editor aren't used as "absolutes", e.g. a manager with a high value in d-line always uses the most aggressive line. They are used as tendencies. They are part of the dynamic AI decision making process. To simplify, if an AI man targets a sound win, they play more exansive, attacking football. Vice versa if they target a draw / try to not get trashed. An AI man with an aggressive value in d-line would typically always favor more aggressive lines, however it's not as simple as "If d-line = say 20, then AI Manager always sets the most aggressive line possible".

It's pretty well recorded, well every year, that some tactical combinations highlight ME issues more, some less. That's why after the release there are much more reports about weird stuff happening.  If I were SI, I would have long narrowed the corridor down as to possible combinations, no less as there's too much "nonsense" possible in general. If the argument is "realism" (and it always is), then the game should be balanced with keeping finite, "realistic" tactics into account rather than a near infinite amount of combinations. I think it would make the ME development much more stable and robust in the long-term too (and the AI more robust...). 

I would agree with you about narrowing choices for human player , but unfortunately I've noticed weird situations even using a pretty standard tactic, i.e. 4-3-1-2 with gegenpressing style, without changing any other parameter.

You know what? 

I think would be interesting to watch a match with Klopp as AI, then play a match managing Liverpool with 4-3-3 and gegenpressing.

Watch Man City managed by AI and play as city with 4-3-3 and tiki-taka...and so on.

 

[alian62]

Also I am finding that it all seems much less prevalent in lower leagues as in Amateur leagues etc

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Delvi said:

I would agree with you about narrowing choices for human player , but unfortunately I've noticed weird situations even using a pretty standard tactic, i.e. 4-3-1-2 with gegenpressing style, without changing any other parameter.

That 4-3-1-2 Gegenpress can still differ from one player to the next, as there's a myriad combinations in roles+duties possible. However I've not argued that flaws would go all away if you sticked to any preset. I've just argued that certain tactical combinations always highlight those ME flaws, others somewhat less so.  

I think both the "tactical tinkering" community as well as the exploit tactics community, would throw a tantrum if their optons were ever limited though -- finding "exploits" for instance is all about going all crazy and doing Experiments. And as of the tinkerers, they may consider that all their detailed micro-tweaking of matches; the AI is incapable of anyway. I think the game were to be richer if human as well as AI Management came ever closer together in general. That is, as an actual football simulation. In actual football, there is no manager that has decisive edges over his peers; certainly not to the degree possible in FM. 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Svenc

[Scuffi92]

If the human player usually plays with an higher defensive line, why he has 6-7 long ball each game resulting in a 1vs1 for him? So it's not that the IA plays more defensive and low because the IA concede the same amount of 1vs1 of the human player. 

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, Delvi said:

I would agree with you about narrowing choices for human player , but unfortunately I've noticed weird situations even using a pretty standard tactic, i.e. 4-3-1-2 with gegenpressing style, without changing any other parameter.

Gegen pressing with a 4312 is just a bad idea. Flanks are gonna get ripped up and with that central defender pairings are going to get split leaving them vulnerable to over the top balls.

[Delvi]

1 ora fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

Gegen pressing with a 4312 is just a bad idea. Flanks are gonna get ripped up and with that central defender pairings are going to get split leaving them vulnerable to over the top balls.

It depends a lot on the duties IMHO, however 4-3-1-2 is one of the suggested formations when you select gegenpressing as playing style. By the way, IRL it was the tactic used by Roger Schmidt at Bayer Leverkusen, one of the fathers of gegenpressing.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Delvi said:

It depends a lot on the duties IMHO, however 4-3-1-2 is one of the suggested formations when you select gegenpressing as playing style. By the way, IRL it was the tactic used by Roger Schmidt at Bayer Leverkusen, one of the fathers of gegenpressing.

Yeah no one said it can't be done, but its a bad idea for 90% of the people who come to these forums, most of them are just going to set it up wrongly. My favourite system for FM20 is actually a 4312 but most people can't make it work right.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Watching a guy playing a save on Twitch earlier, he's playing in the EPL and his tactic is ridiculously over-attacking. An attacking 4-2-4 with attacking wingbacks. He's taken a small club to the top league but when I'm watching the matches, they are horrible to watch. He has endless high balls played against him where opposing strikers are rushing shots and missing them, rinse and repeat. He occasionally gets lucky from a set piece or a long shot.There's very little actual football being played. Thing is, he seems not to care a jot about it, his team's winning most of the time, so I guess it's fun for him. 

Now, I've been playing  for hundreds of hours already and never witnessed a single game like that. There will be occasional passages of play in that manner when me or the AI might be chasing a goal at the end of a match, but watching those games on stream was a real eye opener. 

I wonder if this is what other users who are hating the engine this year are experiencing. Perhaps it is a case of gung ho tactics making matches unwatchable this year. 

[Svenc]

There's an element to that every Season. I've argued this before, but I don't know why the download sections -- as they are-- are officially supported. Not supported at all, but without an FAQ/ Addendum. Because every tactic is like that, or roughly 9.9/10. That FAQ should read: Random stuff to be expected. It should also read to be cautious with uploaders who can't explain their tactics, and what the weakness to watch out for are. Now if anybody would read any such is another thing. Still for as long as nobody finds a way to field 30 outfield Players visibly covering every Inch of the pitch at any one time, there will always be strength and weakness. Anyway: If there is an ME issue, stuff like that makes it look even worse.

This has been going on since Arsenal last won the EPL.

The Long-term bad Theory is that the tactics would be too brilliant, and as such the ME arbitrarily punishing the Player for them being too brilliant too… However, in this case, it's not a case of purely unbalanced tactics leading to the issues. The slow reaction to through balls on top Levels by defenders is ME inherent, for instance, same as some of the marking on free kicks. That stuff still tends to be exaggerated with unbalanced tactics, mind.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Svenc

[Iwabik]

9 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

his tactic is ridiculously over-attacking. An attacking 4-2-4 with attacking wingbacks. He's taken a small club to the top league but when I'm watching the matches, they are horrible to watch. He has endless high balls played against him where opposing strikers are rushing shots and missing them, rinse and repeat.

But if his tactic is way too attacking for his team quality, he should be punished for it. I know that CBs reactionx to long balls are bugged currently but people playing way too risky and attacking against much better sides should be torn apart easily and concede many goals. I hope that by fixing CBs they won't make high line high press tactics OP again. 

[enigmatic]

It's a fair bet that the majority of AI tactics are very different from the Attacking, Pass Into Space, Much Higher Defensive Line combo humans tend to prefer, especially if they're using tactics that worked for them in FM19 or tactics they downloaded.

That said, the AI is still vulnerable to direct tactics when a human plays them, and a human player is still too vulnerable to balls over the top when they've got a defence that should be able to cope with them.