subtotalcurve Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Serious question here. How much about winning games is it in fact about having better players than the other team? I know tactics can sway the result a little but you'll never get a team like Burnley (sorry Burnley fans) winning the Premier League every season with the players they have, no matter what their tactics. Do you agree? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsuro P12 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) Yes, while exceptions happens (like Leicester, but they are rare! That's why they are called exceptions). And Ranieri is a (just) good manager, not a God. There are better managers out there (Conte). Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Leicester had really strong team imho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsuro P12 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mitja said: Leicester had really strong team imho. De Laet? Drinkwater? Hammond? James? Albrighton? Eventually not at the same level of Sagna, Kompany, Aguero & co. that anyway did well that year (very competitive season). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Over a short period of time, tactics, team spirit, work ethic etc can Trump ability. But over a longer period ability will always win out IMO. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
subtotalcurve Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 I would say there are teams like Leicester that have the potential to win the league if they get their tactics right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LokiValfar Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Year Leicester won it was more a case of the teams chasing slipped up when Leicester did so never closed the gap. Think United this season trying to chase Chelsea.. everytime Chelsea drop points, so do United. It's an odd one really because I've seen examples in FM where a team of good players with the odd great player can achieve something with a terrible manager but I've also seen a big team almost get relegated with a great manager and great players. It's also going to depend on how competetive a league is too, with the Premiership I'd say that there are a hell of a lot more teams that with the right tactics, other clubs slipping up etc could theoretically win the league whereas a lot of other leagues there is pretty much no real chance of more than 2 or 3 teams winning the league without some kind of thing happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsuro P12 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 59 minutes ago, LokiValfar said: Year Leicester won it was more a case of the teams chasing slipped up when Leicester did so never closed the gap. Think United this season trying to chase Chelsea.. everytime Chelsea drop points, so do United. It's an odd one really because I've seen examples in FM where a team of good players with the odd great player can achieve something with a terrible manager but I've also seen a big team almost get relegated with a great manager and great players. It's also going to depend on how competetive a league is too, with the Premiership I'd say that there are a hell of a lot more teams that with the right tactics, other clubs slipping up etc could theoretically win the league whereas a lot of other leagues there is pretty much no real chance of more than 2 or 3 teams winning the league without some kind of thing happening. That's not encouraging, but true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
subtotalcurve Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said: That's not encouraging, but true. I think he may have been referring to Borussia Dortmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsuro P12 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 35 minutes ago, subtotalcurve said: I think he may have been referring to Borussia Dortmund Oh, I thought about FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubaRA7 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 On 12/01/2020 at 11:59, subtotalcurve said: Serious question here. How much about winning games is it in fact about having better players than the other team? I know tactics can sway the result a little but you'll never get a team like Burnley (sorry Burnley fans) winning the Premier League every season with the players they have, no matter what their tactics. Do you agree? I agree 100%. Yes sometimes your tactical changes in game can be crucial, but at the end of the day your tactics is good as your players are.There's a reason why FM tactical testers test their tactics with a very good team first.Although i would say that this was maybe possible in previous FM versions like fm12 and fm10 when game was easier than modern FM versions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LokiValfar Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 On 12/01/2020 at 13:32, subtotalcurve said: I think he may have been referring to Borussia Dortmund Nope, FM2019 in my save I saw Chelsea finish a couple of places above the relegation zone within 4 years of the start of the save, they managed to pull back up and stay around mid table after that chopping and changing managers over and over. If memory serves correctly they had Allegri as boss when being theatened with relegation. Only IRL team I though of for it was River Plate when they got relegated not long after winning the Clausura! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporadicsmiles Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Leicester are an example of the whole becoming greater than the sum of it's parts, and the absolute importance of momentum in sport. They won because they had the perfect players to play the way they were playing. And they believed in what they were doing, and that they could do it. This also happened to coincide with a bit of a transition for the other big clubs, leaving a chance. Teams also did not take Leicester seriously as a threat until it was far too late to do anything about it. The example of teams overachieving is pretty common though (Leicester is just at the very extreme of this). Sheffield United are doing it this year, and that is tactical as we can all agree their players have not all become world class overnight. The important thing is the synergy between tactic and players. If you have a tactic that perfectly suits your playing squad, and allows you to get every ounce of effort from them, then you will do better than expected. This can negate players being individually worse than the opposition. The biggest advantage of having excellent players is that they can overcome dodgy tactics to win games on their own. A moment of magic leading to a goal can be the difference between a win and a draw. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etebaer Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) Ofc does Player Quality play a major role in winning/losing games as in the end tactic is simply organisation of quality at your hand and not casting success out of thin air. That does not prevent any Team from underperforming or having streaks of bad luck, injuries, bad ref decisions etc. And sometimes the Cargo Cult in Football goes that extreme that allmost all Teams go into wrong tactical and strategical directions. That now and then leaves room for an Underdog overperforming way above expectations and new "Wondertactics"... In the end tactic is like tic tac toe - the best you can achieve tactical if nothing goes nowhere wrong is a draw as each move is neutralized every time and it is the Club Strategy and the Players and their Skill, ofc a Coach that does nothing badly wrong, as well as many out of your control elements that decide a game. That is why Money can buy success if you buy not only Players but also competence around the Players, that is why i.e. Guardiola had spend above a billon for Players so he can overcome most of the challenges simply by having superior Quality at his fingertips but most often he also knows what he is doing and why. Edited January 14, 2020 by Etebaer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I think too many people in here are concentrating too much on real life tbh... In game it is always skewed in our favour when it comes to tactics and i genuinely feel given i got the team clicking that I could win the prem or the championship with any team in it... I've won the prem first season with Norwich, West Ham and have taken Sheff Utd to a top 4 finish .. Obviously having the players makes this incredibly easier than it would be without world class players, but my point is that it's much easier to succeed in game with a poorer team in game than it is irl. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrazT Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 With reference o the comments about Leicester when they won the EPL- I recall there was a period towards the end of the season when they played the same starting 11 for about 12 games in a row and this kind of continuity, without injuries or suspensions may also have been a factor. Can you imagine that happening in FM? The corridor outside the manager's door on a Monday would be crammed with backup and squad players demanding game time and threatening to tell all their colleagues about it if they dont! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxrulz7 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Go play a fixture over and over with the same tactics. You'll find that MOST fixtures have pretty volatile results. Vary the tactic and try it again. Compare the two results. You'll then find that while the volatility in individual games is high, the tactics make a truly meaningful difference (particularly if you make one of the tactics intentionally "bad"). The single biggest factor I've found is team cohesion / spirit. If my team can win a couple big games at the beginning of the season, we're usually going to rock and roll for a while. But when I see a big club fail hard inexplicably, it's usually because they randomly lost a couple key games and the team spirit spiraled out of control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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