Am I loaning too many players out??

[jcp1417]

I'm playing as Arsenal and I tend to loan something like 20-25 players out every season. Basically, if there is a league that will start my player regularly and has decent facilities, I will loan them out. Am I doing this too much and should I just sell the player instead even if the offers are below the listed value?

In real life, how many players loaned out per big 6 premier team?

[KUBI]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb jcp1417:

I'm playing as Arsenal and I tend to loan something like 20-25 players out every season. Basically, if there is a league that will start my player regularly and has decent facilities, I will loan them out. Am I doing this too much and should I just sell the player instead even if the offers are below the listed value?

In real life, how many players loaned out per big 6 premier team?

Arsenal has actually just 8 players loan out, 4 from the academy. But Chelsea is known for their amount of loans and their figure matches what you do. 

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/teams/on-loan-players?pageTab=players

[KUBI]

Arsenal seems to loan out a dozen in the January window:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/10704031/arsenal-loan-transfers-smith-rowe-nketiah/

[Vänsterback]

I'll never get why clubs should have more players under contract than they intend to use, but then again some clubs have nearly 200 players contracted. If you have 20-25 players that you don't need in your own first team I think that you should sell them as quickly as you get a reasonable offer. Why spend time and energy managing them instead of the players you actually need?

If you have more than 25 players in the club too old for the youth team you haven't planned your squad well enough.

[The Gold Guard]

My plan is basically:

 

1. Set Loan Manager - Championship only//  regular starter+ // wages any % // end of season // - only the apex tier prospects get special treatment.

2. If a player gets a bit of bite for first team football before jan I loan them out to wherever domestically. Most probably a feeder affiliate in league one/two/nonleague // depending on squad status

3. Set loan manager to more flexibilty for your liking. I just turn everything to any again but still selective on offers with my approval.

4. Depending on continental/domestic cup (and possible 23s cup/league) run and rotation in january window, I will let the loan manager have fun for the second half of season and let them go where they are wanted. 

 

[jcp1417]

3 hours ago, Vänsterback said:

I'll never get why clubs should have more players under contract than they intend to use, but then again some clubs have nearly 200 players contracted. If you have 20-25 players that you don't need in your own first team I think that you should sell them as quickly as you get a reasonable offer. Why spend time and energy managing them instead of the players you actually need?

If you have more than 25 players in the club too old for the youth team you haven't planned your squad well enough.

actually, every single loan of mine are U23 players. I do agree that if they can't play on my senior team, then they should move on at almost any fee. 

My question is aimed at my Youth teams. Basically, is a 21year old 2 star PA player better served on loan somewhere in the lower leagues or on my U23 team? I know that players progress faster with game time but my facilities are vastly better than anything below Championship.

So which is better for development for those 21 year old players with League One/Two/National current ability, State of the Art facilities and no senior experience or average facilities and loads of senior game time?

[jcp1417]

Oh and also, which option is better for transfer value? I typically will sell a player that I know I won't be resigning when he's in his last year or so even if he's only going to fetch $50k. Do players have more value coming from a top team's youth side or having played in some lower league?

Attached is an example. Ballard is 21 and does not have the ability or potential to ever make my team. It's July, and his contract expires next June. I let him go on loan to Leyton Orient because they asked for him and since I am a serial loaner, I accepted. Leyton Orient is not a place I would normally allow a good prospect to go to because of their facilities, but I don't care about Ballard development anymore. If I wanted to sell him on to someone, should I have kept him in my U23, or let the loan happen? Which one would he gain more value from? Does it not really matter and I should just allow the player to go if he indicates that he wants to?

[JordanMilly]

You're not going to be able to offer him out for sale while he's on loan, @jcp1417, except to Leyton.

[jcp1417]

20 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

You're not going to be able to offer him out for sale while he's on loan, @jcp1417, except to Leyton.

Right, that's not really what I'm getting at. I was asking about should I have loaned him. I know that I would have to recall him to actually sell him.

[JordanMilly]

At that level, it probably wouldn't make a huge amount of difference, unless he develops while on loan and increases in value.

[jcp1417]

1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

At that level, it probably wouldn't make a huge amount of difference, unless he develops while on loan and increases in value.

Are you saying that at the League Two level, there is no difference in development between my U23 team and their senior team?

[SteveUK]

Every FM i play as Arsenal, i sign about 70-80 players in the first window, about 10% are first teamers, rest are aged 18 or under and most of them were unprotected contracts, i put all the 15-17's in the U18 team, i sign as many coaches that are 4 and a half star+ as i can for all areas, then i offer out any player that is 18+ and not in my first team plans, to clubs who are willing to A) Pay all the wages, B) Give regular game time and also have their league loaded. Usually i can get 150k-300k per month payments from clubs i offer my players out to, those who don't offer to pay can only loan the player if they have his squad status as at least Regular starter or above, the payments for a full season usually amount to the initial cost of the unprotected player as well.

In my current save in second season i have 37 players out on loan, 27 first team players, and about 45 u23/u18 players who are all averaging 7.5-10 training ratings each week due to the staff and training facilities.

My observations for doing this sort of thing for last several years of FM is players develop best when they are playing first team football from top league to about championship level, after that they tend to develop okay if they are playing for the best teams in the lower league that they are in and getting good average ratings for example a player playing 30 games for say Sunderland in League 1 and only averaging below 6.5 will not develop as well as that same player playing at the same club but averaging 7+ but even then it's pretty marginal, still i try to loan players to clubs where they will destroy other teams.

Determination is the biggest stat in regards to a player improving, i always try to sign young players with this stat about 15-20 they have a better chance of reaching their full potential and at a faster pace than someone with determination under 10.

In previous FM's i think most people myself included would always get an older player with high det to tutor a youth player with lower det but now you have mentoring groups which kinda do the same thing but can also have the opposite happen if you have too many low determined players in the group.

When you sign new new players only ask current players who have higher determination than the new player to welcome them into the club, as this has quite a good chance to boost determination of the new player.

I know some see it as stock piling players and unrealistic (though Chelsea could be a comparison for this) but in my opinion there is no downside to doing this sort of thing in the game, you buy a young player for barely anything, you don't pay a lot of  their wages, you get paid while they develop for 3-5 years and then if they don't suit your team and or want massive wages you can flog them for a massive profit.

Edited January 14, 2020 by SteveUK

[jcp1417]

3 hours ago, SteveUK said:

Every FM i play as Arsenal, i sign about 70-80 players in the first window, about 10% are first teamers, rest are aged 18 or under and most of them were unprotected contracts, i put all the 15-17's in the U18 team, i sign as many coaches that are 4 and a half star+ as i can for all areas, then i offer out any player that is 18+ and not in my first team plans, to clubs who are willing to A) Pay all the wages, B) Give regular game time and also have their league loaded. Usually i can get 150k-300k per month payments from clubs i offer my players out to, those who don't offer to pay can only loan the player if they have his squad status as at least Regular starter or above, the payments for a full season usually amount to the initial cost of the unprotected player as well.

In my current save in second season i have 37 players out on loan, 27 first team players, and about 45 u23/u18 players who are all averaging 7.5-10 training ratings each week due to the staff and training facilities.

My observations for doing this sort of thing for last several years of FM is players develop best when they are playing first team football from top league to about championship level, after that they tend to develop okay if they are playing for the best teams in the lower league that they are in and getting good average ratings for example a player playing 30 games for say Sunderland in League 1 and only averaging below 6.5 will not develop as well as that same player playing at the same club but averaging 7+ but even then it's pretty marginal, still i try to loan players to clubs where they will destroy other teams.

Determination is the biggest stat in regards to a player improving, i always try to sign young players with this stat about 15-20 they have a better chance of reaching their full potential and at a faster pace than someone with determination under 10.

In previous FM's i think most people myself included would always get an older player with high det to tutor a youth player with lower det but now you have mentoring groups which kinda do the same thing but can also have the opposite happen if you have too many low determined players in the group.

When you sign new new players only ask current players who have higher determination than the new player to welcome them into the club, as this has quite a good chance to boost determination of the new player.

I know some see it as stock piling players and unrealistic (though Chelsea could be a comparison for this) but in my opinion there is no downside to doing this sort of thing in the game, you buy a young player for barely anything, you don't pay a lot of  their wages, you get paid while they develop for 3-5 years and then if they don't suit your team and or want massive wages you can flog them for a massive profit.

A couple things stood out to me from your post. First, are the unprotected contracts only from england? Because every time I try to sign a foreign unprotected player, they cannot come until the turn 18.

Second, are you saying that players don't develop well if they go to mediocre League One or Two teams? Would those players be better off staying at the parent club's U23 side?

[SteveUK]

23 minutes ago, jcp1417 said:

A couple things stood out to me from your post. First, are the unprotected contracts only from england? Because every time I try to sign a foreign unprotected player, they cannot come until the turn 18.

Second, are you saying that players don't develop well if they go to mediocre League One or Two teams? Would those players be better off staying at the parent club's U23 side?

Players outside of Europe have to be 18, those under should come to you straight away, i think some under 16 won't come till they are 16, pretty sure one of the players i signed from Lyon in first window called Rayan Cherki wasn't able to join me till the January window. Also, how do you sign them?, do you offer them a contract with approach to sign? I personally don't because you will find any unprotected player is available for quite cheap if you offer £250k up front and then between £500k-1.5m over three seasons. This seriously lowers the overall amount you would pay for the player and prevents any future clauses.

And yes i would prefer to keep a player at my club than send him to a League one or two non promotion fighting team. The best teams i find to try and loan players to are the teams that just got relegated from the Prem and Championship because usually they will be the strongest teams in their league the following season.

[s0ni42]

I’ve just recently found value in loaning guys out to maximize potential more than is years’ past. I won’t loan a guy that can achieve HGC status. I won’t loan a guy who is top two in positional depth chart and typically hesitant to doing so if he’s third in positional depth chart. I won’t loan a guy learning a new position. I will loan guys to increase value, I will loan older players that I cannot sell to recoup wages. Loaning players provides so much h flexibility to roster management, I believe it is imperative but not via a single approach. 

having 20-25 players on loan seems excessive as many of those should warrant first team opportunities or a transfer. But, so long as each player has a path forward and a plan, then the number doesn’t really matter

Edited January 15, 2020 by s0ni42

[Hovis Dexter]

Sorry but what is an unprotected contract?

[SteveUK]

4 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

Sorry but what is an unprotected contract?

It means a player you can approach and offer a contract to without having to make a bid (although making a structured bid is always more future financially advantageous). Usually it relates to youth players, for example Nicolo Armini at the start of the game, if you right click him you will see you have approach to sign as an option, this allows you to offer a contract but will mean you paying compensation. Take a look at Ajax youth team to see even more examples.

Most if not all unprotected contract players can be bought from their clubs by offering a starting fee of £250k-£500k up front and between £250k-£1.5mil over 3 years.

[Hovis Dexter]

@SteveUK Cheers ... that's good to know

[laxrulz7]

here's the ROUGH order I think will help their development the most

Loaned to a premier league team (if this is ever an option for you, do it. Even if they only get ~20 games a year they're going to be massively improved over anything other than being a regular starter for you. Added bonus that they can't play against you which can really mess up some teams if they come to rely on your loanee)

Loaned to a Championship team (Important player): This is usually just fine. Maybe for your very best players (say you find yourself with 3 3star AMRs and, for whatever reason, you can't/won't sell any yet... they likely won't improve in the championship)

Playing ~5ish games for the first team (appropriate only for 17-19 year olds): I've found this is the age and the rough amount of playtime where you'll get pretty substantial improvements from players just for playing the odd game here or there. If I have a 17 year old that I think will likely play 5-10 games, I'll usually keep them barring some kind of crazy offer.

Loaned to a Championship team (squad player)

Playing in the U23s

Playing in League One

Playing in the U18s

The biggest thing to remember is that you want them playing (ideally) at a level slightly above their capacity. So if your coaches say they'd make a decent League One talent but you get a "squad player for a Championship team" offer, you should likely take it. You should also consider the facilities, btw.

[jcp1417]

37 minutes ago, laxrulz7 said:

here's the ROUGH order I think will help their development the most

Loaned to a premier league team (if this is ever an option for you, do it. Even if they only get ~20 games a year they're going to be massively improved over anything other than being a regular starter for you. Added bonus that they can't play against you which can really mess up some teams if they come to rely on your loanee)

Loaned to a Championship team (Important player): This is usually just fine. Maybe for your very best players (say you find yourself with 3 3star AMRs and, for whatever reason, you can't/won't sell any yet... they likely won't improve in the championship)

Playing ~5ish games for the first team (appropriate only for 17-19 year olds): I've found this is the age and the rough amount of playtime where you'll get pretty substantial improvements from players just for playing the odd game here or there. If I have a 17 year old that I think will likely play 5-10 games, I'll usually keep them barring some kind of crazy offer.

Loaned to a Championship team (squad player)

Playing in the U23s

Playing in League One

Playing in the U18s

The biggest thing to remember is that you want them playing (ideally) at a level slightly above their capacity. So if your coaches say they'd make a decent League One talent but you get a "squad player for a Championship team" offer, you should likely take it. You should also consider the facilities, btw.

great response, thank you

[jcp1417]

On 14/01/2020 at 12:37, SteveUK said:

Players outside of Europe have to be 18, those under should come to you straight away, i think some under 16 won't come till they are 16, pretty sure one of the players i signed from Lyon in first window called Rayan Cherki wasn't able to join me till the January window. Also, how do you sign them?, do you offer them a contract with approach to sign? I personally don't because you will find any unprotected player is available for quite cheap if you offer £250k up front and then between £500k-1.5m over three seasons. This seriously lowers the overall amount you would pay for the player and prevents any future clauses.

And yes i would prefer to keep a player at my club than send him to a League one or two non promotion fighting team. The best teams i find to try and loan players to are the teams that just got relegated from the Prem and Championship because usually they will be the strongest teams in their league the following season.

I am not finding any U18 player where I don't get the message saying that U-18 players are not allowed to sign for teams abroad

[mannyhams]

On 17/01/2020 at 03:58, laxrulz7 said:

here's the ROUGH order I think will help their development the most

Loaned to a premier league team (if this is ever an option for you, do it. Even if they only get ~20 games a year they're going to be massively improved over anything other than being a regular starter for you. Added bonus that they can't play against you which can really mess up some teams if they come to rely on your loanee)

Loaned to a Championship team (Important player): This is usually just fine. Maybe for your very best players (say you find yourself with 3 3star AMRs and, for whatever reason, you can't/won't sell any yet... they likely won't improve in the championship)

Playing ~5ish games for the first team (appropriate only for 17-19 year olds): I've found this is the age and the rough amount of playtime where you'll get pretty substantial improvements from players just for playing the odd game here or there. If I have a 17 year old that I think will likely play 5-10 games, I'll usually keep them barring some kind of crazy offer.

Loaned to a Championship team (squad player)

Playing in the U23s

Playing in League One

Playing in the U18s

The biggest thing to remember is that you want them playing (ideally) at a level slightly above their capacity. So if your coaches say they'd make a decent League One talent but you get a "squad player for a Championship team" offer, you should likely take it. You should also consider the facilities, btw.

What an well thought out and thorough answer!
 

Does this still apply for FM22?

 

Can we apply this advice to other nations by understanding EPL to be your club's current league level, Championship and League 1 being current level minus 1 and 2?