Help with my 4-1-4-1

[myrvoldmartin]

I have been working on this 4-1-4-1 formation during pre season and just played three league games.

I have tried to keep TI very simple, and work mostly on getting the player roles right. I like the idea of the left winger attacking the space when the striker drags defenders out of position but haven´t really seen this happen in game yet..

First game against Watford went OK. We created a good amount of chances, 16 shots and 8 of them on target.

In the next game against Chelsea we managed to stay in the game till the 53th minute, and then Chelsea scored two quick goals. Got absolutely hammered against Watford, where we created absolutely nothing except a big chance on a corner late in the game.

Would love some thoughts and comment on how this could be improved.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, myrvoldmartin said:

I managed Newcastle, so I know a lot of these players. And I also used the 4123 wide formation. However, my setup of roles and duties was pretty much different.

Let's start with the IWBs. While the one on the right (Krafth) does make sense to cover for the attacking CM and provide support to the deeper and central midfield areas, the left one is problematic a bit. Firstly because none on the left side is really providing width (unlike the right flank, where you have the classic winger role). From a defensive perspective, I fear that Newcastle is not good enough to have both CMs as deep runners. The CM on attack in MCR is okay and absolutely makes sense, but the BBM could be problematic. 

Having said that, I am also referring to your player selection policy. If you want to use a DLP as a role, wouldn't Shelvey make a lot more sense than Hayden? But in the CML position, rather than DM. I would keep Hayden as a DM, but in a role that is primarily focused on protecting the defense (anchor, HB or DM on defend duty). 

When it comes to instructions, I noticed that you use a lower LOE. Is it because you want to play primarily on the counter-attack or purely for the sake of good vertical compactness?

 

[myrvoldmartin]

Thanks for your comment @Experienced Defender!

You are right about the lower LOE. I want to play on the counter and leave some space for my attacking players to run into. I add Counter and Pass into space some times in-game.

It makes absolutely sense what your saying about the left fullback, and not having any widht on the left hand side. I´m changing his role to a more conventional FB/WB. Regarding my midfield; I´m always unsure how to set up these roles so thanks for the input on that!

This is how it looks now.

DLF (s)

IF (a)                           W (s)

DLP (s)     CM (a)

DM (d)

WB(s)    CD(d)    CD(d)    IWB(s)

With Shelvey playing as DLP and Hayden as DM.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

DLF (s)

IF (a)                           W (s)

DLP (s)     CM (a)

DM (d)

WB(s)    CD(d)    CD(d)    IWB(s)

With Shelvey playing as DLP and Hayden as DM

This looks a lot better balanced  

 

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

You are right about the lower LOE. I want to play on the counter and leave some space for my attacking players to run into

Okay. Just keep 2 things in mind.

First, if you want your primary tactic to be primarily counter-attacking, the problem is that it's not always going to work. Because when you are the favorite in a match - e.g. playing at home against a team of similar or lower reputation - you cannot expect them to attack you and thus leave space for you to exploit on the counter (at least not before you take the lead). So you need to have a plan-B tactic for this type of matches.

Secondly, if you want a real counter-attacking tactic, the lone striker should be on attack duty. Which in your setup is easy to do - just change the DLF's duty to attack and AML/IF's to support. You can then even change the LB into FB on attack, which would create a nice interplay with the IFsu and DLP on the left, including a natural overlap (when the situation is opportune). That's btw my favorite role combination in a 4123 system. 

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

I add Counter and Pass into space some times in-game

Pass into space is the type of instruction you should use situationally, rather than all the time. Because not only that it's not necessary for a counter-attacking tactic, but can also lead to needless losses of possession a bit too often. Given that you play on the Balanced mentality, I would rather go with higher tempo to encourage faster transitions. The Counter TI itself will already lead to more passes into space anyway. 

Out of possession, you may consider the Get stuck in instruction to avoid your players being too passive when defending. The combo of standard DL and lower LOE gives you an optimal level of compactness, so more aggressive tackling should not be too risky. 

In the counter-attacking tactic, you can also apply a softer version of split block by telling the striker and CM on attack to close down more. 

Btw, I think Dubravka can be played as a SK on defend duty, both in order to encourage more counter-attacking passes from the back and because he has the right set of attributes for the role. 

[myrvoldmartin]

I´ve altered my tactic a bit using all your input @Experienced Defender. Thanks for your help!

Still not getting the results we need, and goals against are coming way too easily. I´ve attached a few situations that have happened in our latest games.

The first is our game against Leicester.

Spoiler

A cross from their left side into the box gets cleared by Lascelles (6), but it´s a bad clearance that goes just outside our own box. At this moment Dummett (3) has tucked inside altough we already have two players centrally. Praet gets the ball under control and plays it into Ricardo who got loads of space and easily gets the ball into the back of the net.

 

Spoiler

A similar thing happened in our game against Watford. A simple throw in on their left side gets thrown to Welbeck (10) who lays it off to Cholevas (25) again. From the 1st image I can already see some issues with our positioning: Lascelles (6) is almost man marking Welbeck and getting dragged out of his position. Krafth (17) tucks in behind  and Clark (2) and Dummett (3) is positioned well so we are OK at this moment.

But suddenly  (2th image) when Welbeck plays the ball back to Cholevas, our left back Dummett has gone completely out of his position and try to put pressure on the player with the ball.

This leaves Clark as our only defender centrally, while Almiron (24) has to mark their right fullback. When the cross gets played from Cholevas, Almiron takes a couple of steps forward and leaves their right fullback with loads of space. Janmaat gets the ball and scores easily....

Does this have something to do with with the TI Get stuck in?

Here is how my tactic is looking like atm.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, myrvoldmartin said:

Okay, this tactic looks good in and of itself, so I would assume the problem is that some of your players do not suit their roles ideally. 

The tactic is obviously counter-attack-minded and should rely on a relatively fast and mobile striker. Which Carroll obviously is not.

From a defensive perspective, your players are probably not good enough for this setup. At least one of the fullbacks would probably need to be a bit more conservative. I would first try changing Krafth's duty to defend instead of support. 

If your defensive issues persist even after this tweak, we can discuss further tweaks. 

2 hours ago, myrvoldmartin said:

Does this have something to do with with the TI Get stuck in?

Possible. But only you can know that for sure, because you watch your matches. Try to play without the Get stuck in and see if there is some notable improvement or not. 

Btw, this was your counter-attacking tactic? What about the other one?

[myrvoldmartin]

Okay I will try to change the role for the right fullback @Experienced Defender. And I will also try things without the Get stuck in TI.

My other tactic is the same formation with only a couple of changes in roles.

DLF (s)

IF (A)                       W (s)

DLP (s)    CM (a)

DM (d)

FB (s)  BPD (d)   CD (d)  IWB (s)

SK (d)

Team instructions:

Only Higher tempo and Counter press

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

My other tactic is the same formation with only a couple of changes in roles.

DLF (s)

IF (A)                       W (s)

DLP (s)    CM (a)

DM (d)

FB (s)  BPD (d)   CD (d)  IWB (s)

SK (d)

And how does it work for you? I am asking because in this setup your DLP might be lacking enough support from out wide, especially in advanced stages of your attacks. So you may consider either changing the LB into WB on support or adding the Overlap left TI, in order to encourage the LB to be more involved as your attack moves up the pitch.

But if your tactic already works well and you do not see this type of issue, then don't change anything and keep playing as you already do. 

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

Only Higher tempo and Counter press

Be very careful with the counter-press. Use it situationally, rather than all the time. Keep in mind that your team is not a top one. 

[myrvoldmartin]

Thanks again @Experienced Defender!

Did some changes to my main tactic.  Changed the fullback to a WB (s) and went with two central defenders. The counter press also got axed (but I use it at times in-game). Added the TI Be more expressive as I use this tactic against poorer opposition, and I felt we often struggled to create enough chances from open play.

Control tactic

 

Counter tactic

Occassionally i add Get stuck in, mostly in games against teams at a similar or lower level than us.

The results were absolutely amazing this season as we finished 6th in the prem. We sat at 1th halfway through the season but we struggled in february, march and april to get any consistency. Felt like the other teams had figured us out.

A lot of goals came from counter attacks against us, mainly when we were using the Control tactic.

So my question is, how would you go about improving my setup?

Is the problem with counter attacks against us mainly down to the quality of my defenders? Lack of pace Lascelles and Hayden? Jetro Willems has poor Anticipation, Positioning, Teamwork and Work Rate so maybe I should look into bringing in a better overall fullback? (BTW I used John Souttar a lot instead of Dummett as a central defender during the second part of the season)

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

So my question is, how would you go about improving my setup?

You finished 6th in the EPL with this Newcastle team and you want to improve the tactic ??? I don't know what more you should expect from an average team that had (probably) been predicted/expected to finish in some mid-table position. 

I don't say that the tactic cannot be improved, but try to be a bit more realistic. 

Btw, you are better than I was in my FM19 Newcastle save. I was happy when I finished the season 8th because we were predicted to be 11th. Not to mention how happy the board, players and fans were 

[myrvoldmartin]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You finished 6th in the EPL with this Newcastle team and you want to improve the tactic ??? I don't know what more you should expect from an average team that had (probably) been predicted/expected to finish in some mid-table position. 

I don't say that the tactic cannot be improved, but try to be a bit more realistic. 

Btw, you are better than I was in my FM19 Newcastle save. I was happy when I finished the season 8th because we were predicted to be 11th. Not to mention how happy the board, players and fans were 

Obviously I´m absolutely thrilled with our league postion this season, but I just wanted to hear if you have any input on how to make my Control tactic better against teams sitting deep against us.

Right now I am trying out a change in mentality from Balanced to Positive. Initially I played around with upping the pressing intensity, but I see that increasing the mentality automatically increases our intensity to a bit more aggressive.

I brought in Andre Onana and I am thinking about changing the goalkeeper role from SK (d) to  SK (s). I guess this will give us a a bit more risk-taking goalkeeper both in transition and in open play.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

I just wanted to hear if you have any input on how to make my Control tactic better against teams sitting deep against us

I would first like to know why you actually call that particular tactic "control"? 

 

1 hour ago, myrvoldmartin said:

Right now I am trying out a change in mentality from Balanced to Positive. Initially I played around with upping the pressing intensity, but I see that increasing the mentality automatically increases our intensity to a bit more aggressive

Not only more aggressive when defending, but also faster and more adventurous when attacking (especially as you use higher tempo already). Which is not necessarily a bad thing, just something you need to keep in mind when creating or tweaking a tactic.