Gegenpress help

[Sarriball14]

Has anyone created a good consistent gegenpress tactic? 
 

My formation of choice is the 4-3-3 wide or the 4-1-2-2-1.
 

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated 

 

 

[Sarriball14]

This is my current tactic, results are positive but something is still missing. Im averaging around 20 shots a game but conversion rate is poor. Plenty of 1-0 results. Defensively we arent bad but seem to concede a lot of chances from the down our left side which i cant put my finger on atm.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I never play any kind of gegenpress, so I am not an ideal person to give you any proper advice. But I see a number of problems in this tactic overall, especially potential defensive vulnerability on the right flank due to playing a mezzala and attacking fullback on the same side. 

Hopefully someone with more experience with gegenpress-oriented tactics will come and give you some useful advice.

[Sarriball14]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I never play any kind of gegenpress, so I am not an ideal person to give you any proper advice. But I see a number of problems in this tactic overall, especially potential defensive vulnerability on the right flank due to playing a mezzala and attacking fullback on the same side. 

Hopefully someone with more experience with gegenpress-oriented tactics will come and give you some useful advice.

Thanks for getting in touch! Ahhh that’s annoying you’ve helped me before with a vertical tiki taka style on last years FM and it really helped! 
 

Funnily enough it seems to be my left flank that’s actually giving me problems. But I may try swapping the BBM and mezala?

[Experienced Defender]

17 minutes ago, Sarriball14 said:

But I may try swapping the BBM and mezala?

That would make a bit more sense, but still not ideal. Anyway, try and see what happens. 

[Sarriball14]

41 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

That would make a bit more sense, but still not ideal. Anyway, try and see what happens. 

Ok will do, I’m not really keen on Kante as a B2B midfielder, doesn’t seem to perform overly well so may look to change his role to a BWM on support and see what happens 

[sporadicsmiles]

The issue I see with your midfield is both central midfielders are moving forward when you have the ball. That means they will also be active early in the counter press. If a team beats that counter press, you have no midfield support and your DLP is exposed to defend all the central area. Which likely he cannot, so probably a CB is pulled in. That will cause huge defensive instability, made worse by the fact your RB can also get caught up field and press.

In addition to that, I find much higher tempo + attacking mentality + work ball into box to be counter intuitive. The first two are to make your very direct in your build up play. The latter then encourages them to play the ball around. To me that makes no sense. 

I notice that you are currently first in the league though, so what exactly is the problem you are having with this tactic? 

[Sarriball14]

53 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The issue I see with your midfield is both central midfielders are moving forward when you have the ball. That means they will also be active early in the counter press. If a team beats that counter press, you have no midfield support and your DLP is exposed to defend all the central area. Which likely he cannot, so probably a CB is pulled in. That will cause huge defensive instability, made worse by the fact your RB can also get caught up field and press.

In addition to that, I find much higher tempo + attacking mentality + work ball into box to be counter intuitive. The first two are to make your very direct in your build up play. The latter then encourages them to play the ball around. To me that makes no sense. 

I notice that you are currently first in the league though, so what exactly is the problem you are having with this tactic? 

The reason for the 2 running CMs are for the gegenpress. I thought they both needed to be runners for the high pressing? 
 

Would changing the B2B to a BWM be a better option? 
 

the work ball into box instruction was only put in for the last game. This is part of my problem we are getting over 20 odd shots on goal most games and seem to only convert 1 at most. A lot of the chances are very good chances as well, players seem to almost pass the ball to their keeper. 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I’m not really keen on Kante as a B2B midfielder, doesn’t seem to perform overly well so may look to change his role to a BWM on support and see what happens 

But I don't see Kante in your tactic? Where do you intend to play him as a BWM - in MCL or MCR? I am asking because you mentioned you might swap the mezzala and BBM around.

[Sarriball14]

 

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

But I don't see Kante in your tactic? Where do you intend to play him as a BWM - in MCL or MCR? I am asking because you mentioned you might swap the mezzala and BBM around.

He’s normally on the left in the B2B role 

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, Sarriball14 said:

 

He’s normally on the left in the B2B role 

Well, he would make more sense on the right (MCR), provided this is still your setup:

PFat

IWat                                 IWsu

MEZsu   BWMsu

DLPde

FBsu    BPDde   BPDde   FBat

SKsu

Because he (BWMsu) needs to provide defensive cover for the attacking fullback.

[Sarriball14]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, he would make more sense on the right (MCR), provided this is still your setup:

PFat

IWat                                 IWsu

MEZsu   BWMsu

DLPde

FBsu    BPDde   BPDde   FBat

SKsu

Because he (BWMsu) needs to provide defensive cover for the attacking fullback.

Yeah that’s what I’m going to try tomorrow! Will let you know how it goes. Thanks For the advice 

[W-Walton]

I'll borrow this thread for a question. What pitch size (small, normal, large) is optimal for Gegenpressing?

[XuluBak]

I play a lot of 433, use a lot of gegenpressing, and like to bomb my FBs (WBs, really) forward. That's kinda my go to, although, I admittedly get bored with it cause I think it's fairly OP'd once you get it right. First, I want to preface with, if given that group of players, I'd go 4231 2DM (or possibly even 4213 just to mix it up). That said, your preference is 433, so I'll advise based on that:

• I usually start with a "positive" mentality, unless it's someone I'm expecting to crush. Then crank it up to "attacking" to get the breakthrough, if necessary.
• I almost always set my LOE one level higher than my defensive line. That usually translates to "much higher" LOE, "higher" defensive line. 
• Always prevent short GK. Almost always offside trap. The exception being if I drop my DL to "standard," which I do on very rare occasion. 
• Throw it out, distribute quickly. Gets you back on the front foot quicker and can produce counterattacks. This has won me hugely important matches.
• I strongly prefer to have two BPD: 1 cover, 1 defend. Ideally, both have relatively good pace for the division and are good (or better) with both feet. 
• FBs are heavily dependent on what's in front of them. My preference is probably WB(A) overlapping an IW/IF/RMD and CWB(S) behind a Winger(A). Could also go IWB on the winger side. (all talent dependent, of course)
• I would not use a DLP (or extravagant equivalent) in the holding midfield position if you're gegenpressing. My preference is to use an HB. Could go DM. Absolutely not an Anchorman! Defense duty, regardless of what you choose. 
• That pushes Tonali forward. First thought is DLP-S paired with a B2B (or Mezzela-S). Alternatively, you could explore using him as an RPM, but then you probably want a more "positionally reliable" CM partner. I've been pairing a DLP-S with an RPM-S, and been pleasantly surprised, but haven't played anywhere near enough matches to suggest it, yet.
• Not a fan of using PF role in a 433 gegenpress. The PIs are redundant and it always seems to underperform for me. If it's working for you, then don't change it just because, but I prefer just about anything else. 
• If I have Jadon Sancho, he is 100% in my XI. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by XuluBak

[llama3]

On 04/02/2020 at 14:53, Sarriball14 said:

This is my current tactic, results are positive but something is still missing. Im averaging around 20 shots a game but conversion rate is poor. Plenty of 1-0 results. Defensively we arent bad but seem to concede a lot of chances from the down our left side which i cant put my finger on atm.

I quite like the roles and duties for the most part. I don't think the Mezzala is giving you that much. A Roaming Playmaker or CM(a) might balance the side a bit better. I think your team instructions are very very aggressive - your defensive line, line of engagement, tight marking and attacking mentality are basically pressing ultra-high, so I'm not surprised you're giving up chances on the break.

16 hours ago, W-Walton said:

I'll borrow this thread for a question. What pitch size (small, normal, large) is optimal for Gegenpressing?

Well depends on a few things - if your player fitness isn't optimal then a smaller pitch sees you covering smaller distances to press and compresses space better, but larger gives you more room to attack into (provided you draw their defence out enough)