Do we need difficulty levels?

[masno]

32 minutos atrás, anagain disse:

It is a possibility, yes, but you still have the fact that the player can learn faster than the AI. Sooner or later the player will surpass the AI.

Even if you take away player roles the player will adapt.

It is a possibility though. Many do look back on the sliders, and days before the roles, as better.

I think the game is already better than it was though. In the Welsh league with Bangor I was struggling to surpass TNS on a consistent basis. When I left the club they did seem to go a little backwards though. 

Maybe there is some way SI can add a toggle to remove the roles and have a player manager judge for themselves.

I am all for ways to make the game a more lasting experience. 

Obviously that is better, and obviously that the player will be better than the AI, the thing is how the AI will challenge the player, and how long this will maintain the player entertained. A game without challenges become a boring game, that is exactly what FM is doing right now for the hardcore community, and I don't think that SI want to lose this parcel of players, so a good choice would be those things I suggested, or maybe they come with things that are even better than my ideas, or the most obvious thing to happen, they don't do nothing and simply follow the same path with the same mentality till some new manager game makes them actually try to change something.

[anagain]

50 minutes ago, masno said:

Obviously that is better, and obviously that the player will be better than the AI, the thing is how the AI will challenge the player, and how long this will maintain the player entertained. A game without challenges become a boring game, that is exactly what FM is doing right now for the hardcore community, and I don't think that SI want to lose this parcel of players, so a good choice would be those things I suggested, or maybe they come with things that are even better than my ideas, or the most obvious thing to happen, they don't do nothing and simply follow the same path with the same mentality till some new manager game makes them actually try to change something.

I'm not sure the difficulty, or perceived lack of, will cause a bunch of players to leave. People have been talking about this as long as I can recall on these forums. People want the game to be harder, but they stay because of the stories FM creates, even if the player eventually runs rampant. 

I mean, take my current experience with Bangor. I enjoyed that challenge of trying to surpass TNS. In the end I believed I had reached a level with Bangor and started to look at new jobs. I got sacked because I went for an interview, but that is another story. I am now manager of Swindon. My first season was so hard because the club had been poorly managed and the squads confidence was shot. Long story, short I got relegated, lost a lot of players and am having to rebuild in the Conference. I'm enjoying it.

That is why I say it always depends very much on the club. 

[llDracoll]

Difficulty levels is a terrible idea. A difficulty increase created by the development of a more competent AI is needed, though. I mean, they simply don't have the ability to think of long-term planning. I know it's difficult to do, but that should be the way to go.

And due to this, the "difficulty" in FM is mostly related to how long it takes to accomplish something. For example, an interesting long challenge is league development... taking a minnow league to the upper tiers of the world. This one is hard as, even if you dominate the world with your own team many times, you NEED the AI to develop to transform your joke of a nation into something world-class players will want to go to.

Turning a small team in a powerful nation into a powerhouse is something most people can do. Turning a weak LEAGUE into a powerhouse... that takes decades.

Edited September 1, 2020 by llDracoll

[masno]

12 minutos atrás, anagain disse:

I'm not sure the difficulty, or perceived lack of, will cause a bunch of players to leave. People have been talking about this as long as I can recall on these forums. People want the game to be harder, but they stay because of the stories FM creates, even if the player eventually runs rampant. 

I mean, take my current experience with Bangor. I enjoyed that challenge of trying to surpass TNS. In the end I believed I had reached a level with Bangor and started to look at new jobs. I got sacked because I went for an interview, but that is another story. I am now manager of Swindon. My first season was so hard because the club had been poorly managed and the squads confidence was shot. Long story, short I got relegated, lost a lot of players and am having to rebuild in the Conference. I'm enjoying it.

That is why I say it always depends very much on the club. 

Well, It can cause them to leave because of the lack of complex, or because too much of it. Like I said before, a great way to put casuals and hardcores between the same roof without sacrificing any of them could be difficult settings, but obviously SI can pull a master move and find a balance between both. I prefer the idea of a harder difficult exactly to make things more complex, to actually give managers the power to create great systems, getting ride of all those hard coded patterns that we have nowadays that simply ruin entire systems, and for those who dislike it, well, just play the normal usual FM mode and have fun, no problem with that.

[Broken_Record]

On 07/03/2020 at 15:52, jimbo22 said:

You want a hard game, dont go Liverpool. Pretty simple. Go Norwich and see how it goes. Also, as it stands Liverpool have only lost 4 points so far this season. 

Most of the fm players want to play the game with their favourite team and still have the career aspect in it. Doing even nearly as well as real life Jurgen Klopp should be really hard and in my opinion just taking over Liverpool and replacing Klopp should have some aspects of challenge in terms of squad happiness etc. in it. 

 

I have always thought that the game developers are taking off the career aspect from the game as the difficulty level simply is too low. 

[laurentius82]

2 hours ago, Broken_Record said:

Most of the fm players want to play the game with their favourite team and still have the career aspect in it. Doing even nearly as well as real life Jurgen Klopp should be really hard and in my opinion just taking over Liverpool and replacing Klopp should have some aspects of challenge in terms of squad happiness etc. in it. 

 

I have always thought that the game developers are taking off the career aspect from the game as the difficulty level simply is too low. 

Agreed, and also when you take Norwich (or for that matter a non-league side), it will be somewhat challenging for the first season, but then it starts to be easy as you improve your squad. With a non-league side it's way too easy to achieve back-to-back-to-back-to-back promotions.  I'm currently managing Palermo (and this is with zero desire to brag, what would be the point anyway?), and first two seasons in serie D and serie C we finished top of the table unbeaten. In serie B we lost our first matches but still won the league, first season in serie A we massively overperformed and finished 3rd booking a champions league ticket. The season after that we were 3rd again (in Italy you don't get a massive amount of money for transfers automatically in the top flight so it's a bit harder than the EPL), and after that we have won 3 consecutive scudettos, last one unbeaten. Mind you we haven't yet won the Champions league but shouldn't be long. I consider myself a decent but casual player, definitely not a guru, and the game should be harder than this.  

[Novem9]

You disscussing about more hardcore but I want to say about reverse

I'd love to see more 'forgiving' difficulty because I have some problems to create realistic tactics (as I can see them at least) or use some roles/group of roles.
If you create successful tiki-taka or cautious counter tactic and this is realistic please teach me, it will be greatful!
+ I dont have a lot of time as before to collibrate my tactics, I just want to play few seasons in freetime, so lower difficulty is an option for me

[EazyEee]

18 hours ago, Impacto said:

I agree a 100% with this comment. Managing big clubs should be harder as it is in real life. So how about we have an option that is called "extreme realism" or "hardcore" that is tickable at start of the game. If you check that box the AI is supercharged and doesn't let you off. Everything is instantly harder and now you have a challenge. Now winning the league would not be "meh, anyone can do it", not it's an achievement. And you can play with your favorite club without getting bored after 3 seasons of winning it all. I really, really love this idea and I am dissapointed more people aren't in favour of it. New players can still enjoy the 'light' version of the game, but hardcore players can really test themselves with such an option. 

This, raise the stakes on all fronts, media, board etc far harsher (I believe the average term of a manager in the Premier League is a little under 2 years), more realistic finances. On the match engine side I see how it gets a bit more difficult , but even things as basic as, in the UCL give the opponents a boost.

Obviously, it's AI, and like an again said above, however hard you make the game there will be exploits. That said, most of us playing the game don't go into it looking to exploit the AI weaknesses, just need it to be a little tougher to make it fun.

[Federico]

People is so eager for difficulty levels that they can't see how not viable (i'd say stupid but I don't want to sound offensive) this can be.

"Yeah we want AI harder to play!"

What does it mean? are you asking for SI to deliberately cheat you by making opponents a bunch of super-heroes with 21 in each one of their attributes? Do you mean you want their goalkeeper saving every stone thrown at him and yours not even capable to collect a candy from the pitch? Do you want a constant, unstoppable loss of money when your opponents are richer than every PL clubs, doubling their income day after day?

And how do you think SI could cope with bugs referring to every single level of difficulty?

At the moment, my point of view, we are extremely far from seeing something barely acceptable to what is real football, and you want every parameter in the code to be changed because you want a challange?

Please, play Vibonese in Italian Serie C, and get the CL trophy in 4 years as you usally do with british clubs. Maybe avoid downloading exploitable tactics, for those who do that. Stop reloading, don't purchase any RTE and make your own tactic and training session, gegenpressen is forbidden. That's what I do.

good luck!

[sverige91]

10 hours ago, Novem9 said:

You disscussing about more hardcore but I want to say about reverse

I'd love to see more 'forgiving' difficulty because I have some problems to create realistic tactics (as I can see them at least) or use some roles/group of roles.
If you create successful tiki-taka or cautious counter tactic and this is realistic please teach me, it will be greatful!
+ I dont have a lot of time as before to collibrate my tactics, I just want to play few seasons in freetime, so lower difficulty is an option for me

This is what they dont understand. You have family, job, Can only play in free time. I cant sit hours and create a tactic which stops working after 10-12 wins. I should be able to enjoy few hours because i know that i wont play the game for few more days because of other commitments

[Novem9]

14 минут назад, sverige91 сказал:

This is what they dont understand. You have family, job, Can only play in free time. I cant sit hours and create a tactic which stops working after 10-12 wins. I should be able to enjoy few hours because i know that i wont play the game for few more days because of other commitments

Exactly  And for example if I want to use Regista + BBM + MEZ and dont explain why I use them. Just because I want. This is videogame, not a tactical test.
I dont want to visit tactical thread every time when I have problems and read a lot of information about how to use or dont use things. I have general information about tactics and dont want spend my time for searching a perfect balance.

I dont read manuals about plants before craft some elixir in Witcher and dont read about ballistic theory before I play shooters  If other members dont like this option - just ignore this. But I really want to see casual mode. For now I lose everything until I find working tactic - and win everything. Just lol. I want a rival with realistic tactics and easier mode looks a way for this

 

upd - especially when we have a lot of issues with Match Engine. Some styles are poor, some roles worse in compare other.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Novem9

[EazyEee]

2 hours ago, Federico said:

Maybe avoid downloading exploitable tactics, for those who do that. Stop reloading, don't purchase any RTE and make your own tactic and training session, gegenpressen is forbidden. That's what I do.

The issue is the game is too easy without getting into exploiting things and downloading tactics. I took Eskisehirspor, who are on -10 points at the start of the season to automatic promotion (worst squad in the league) then won. the Turkish Super Lig two seasons after, spending 30 mil + per season ... I can't remember a Turkish club ever spending anything close to £30 million in a season.

 

I get the problems with adding a difficulty levels, especially with the ME, but lots of changes can be made to make the game harder without even getting into the ME,

 

Examples:

- Squad could take much longer to adapt to tactics, so switching tactics multiple times throughout the season should be a risk as it is in real life

- Fitness levels, players attributes and performances could suffer more when they are on lower fitness levels.

- Take away the monthly payments for transfers (this isn't really something real managers deal with, they are given a budget to spend and thats that (and thats if they have control over transfers), the club sort out the financing behind the scenes. But at the moment in FM you can spend insane amounts of money with little to no punishment.

- Further more extensive attribute masking,  signing a players should be a risk unless they have been thoroughly scouted for months, and even then certain aspects should't be know until signed.

- Teams could take longer to gel, making lots of transfers in one window could destabilise the team 

- boards could be a lot more strict, I mean managers early last after 2 years, spending large amounts of money should vastly increase the pressure on you.

 

... just to name a few off the top of my head. Making it harder to assemble a great squad quickly/penalising managers for making massive changed in short time frames would go quite some way.  As for an easy mode, didn't there used to be a streamlined version of FM? Or isn't FM Mobile the streamlined easier version?

 

[Brother Ben]

I tell you what would make people walk away from the game.  Making it too hard.

people want to win and my opinion is that they will tolerate winning easily much more than they will losing.

Edit - also why can you turn off attribute masking? Why is that an option?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Brother Ben

[EazyEee]

18 minutes ago, Analog said:

Sounds stupidly simple, but it's a game.  You are supposed to be able to be successful with any team.  Why play with San Marino if you can NEVER achieve anything with them, because it's uber realistic?  There's no fun in that, literally just a waste of time.  Who wants to invest hours in their lives into a digital game and get nowhere? 

 

They would be for the “hard mode” only,  it’s a bit like in a game like FallOut where the survival mode has you worrying about food and water, obviously the majority of players want to play a game and not worry about it but for those that do, there is a mode/difficulty level for that.

[Peter Morgan]

14 hours ago, Federico said:

And how do you think SI could cope with bugs referring to every single level of difficulty?

I was thinking the exact same thing! It's hard enough for SI to fix the bugs that are in the game now, let alone having to make sure that the bug is fixed on 'easy'  'normal' and 'hard' mode.

[Peter Morgan]

1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:

I tell you what would make people walk away from the game.  Making it too hard.

people want to win and my opinion is that they will tolerate winning easily much more than they will losing.

Absolutely agree with this. This forum is used by an extremely small number of people who play the game. A huge number of players just want to pick up the game, play for a few hours, and win matches. If the game became more difficult then it will just make people switch off.

And anyway, I can't see how anyone can argue that they a) want more realism but b) want 'difficulty' levels. There are no 'easy' or 'hard' modes in football are there? How is a difficulty mode making it more realistic? If anything you are turning the game into more of an arcade game, not a football simulation. "Hey, I completed FM on hard mode. Check me out! I've now unlocked a secret vault of regens - wahoo!"

[EazyEee]

52 minutes ago, Peter Morgan said:

.l "Hey, I completed FM on hard mode. Check me out! I've now unlocked a secret vault of regens - wahoo!"

The current FM game is an arcade version of football, and that’s what makes it fun. 
 

Having an extreme mode would just make adjustments to make the game more life like and In turn offer a challenge to the longer term players. Not sure why it’s being turned into some competition, this is a single player game, who cares if some play on an “hard” mode?

 

Also as it would be totally optional I don’t see how it detracts from base FM. As for bugs etc, the majority of games have difficulty levels, FM had a classic mode back in 14 which was a streamlined version of the game.

[Impacto]

People still think that FM is a realistic simulation game and treat it as such. Do you guys know a manager that doesn't take part in team training? Do you know a manager that goes and negotiates every little detail about a player's contract? Like how many pounds he is going to earn by scoring a goal or playing an international game? Yeah, that's what I thought. There are things in the game to make it FUN and not realistic. And that's ok, because games are meant to be fun. 

As Miles said in an interview once, the game was created to put you in charge of your favorite team, but unlike other games, the world around you would be alive. Evolving, and trying to simulate real life. And that is what it does to this day and it does it better than anybody else. The problem is, the AI world is too easy to exploit and the managing of your team is also too easy to perfect. It's easy even for the casuals. We've already read so many stories of people having it too easy. FM has always been a bit on the easy side once you learn how it works, but in recent years it has gotten way easier. The balance is off!

People will always complain. If the game is too hard the forum will be flooded with topics about it. New players will constantly complain and you can never satisfy 100% of the people. This is why many games include difficulty settings - so more people can enjoy the game depending on their skill. I hate to break it to you guys, but this is A GAME! And games are designed to be fun. For some people it's fun to win, win, win and move on. For some people fun is lose, lose, lose and figure out how to win. Both of these types of players are important and the devs should aim to satisfy both. 

Okay, including a difficulty setting is not practical for FM and we already have ways to increase difficulty ourselves, but that doesn't fix the main issue. So either the game needs to be more balanced in general or keep it easy the way it is now and include an option to make it harder for the people that want a challenge. 

Right know we can't even agree if the game is too easy or too hard because people are different. So give us a way to customize the game the way we want, so everybody can enjoy it. It's time to evolve, being stuck in the same mindset for many years doesn't leave room for evolution. I know it's hard, but change is good. 

[gamietaihsi]

my lad if you want difficult don't take Liverpool. take wealdstone or blyth. with liverpool its easy to win

the difficulty in this game is what team you will manage.

If i manage real yes its easy game

but if i take talavera its very difficult too take them in the la liga and win trophies

[laurentius82]

26 minutes ago, gamietaihsi said:

my lad if you want difficult don't take Liverpool. take wealdstone or blyth. with liverpool its easy to win

the difficulty in this game is what team you will manage.

If i manage real yes its easy game

but if i take talavera its very difficult too take them in the la liga and win trophies

Unfortunately, I don't think that's true at all. I'd argue that it's even easier to play with Wealdstone than Liverpool.  Because AI managers always underestimate a small newly promoted club with no reputation, it's easy to counterattack your way to at least 4 back-to-back promotions and eventually to premier league glory. It's just a longer-term save. With Liverpool at least the opponents play ultra-defensively, which can sometimes be challenging to crack. 

[gamietaihsi]

42 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Unfortunately, I don't think that's true at all. I'd argue that it's even easier to play with Wealdstone than Liverpool.  Because AI managers always underestimate a small newly promoted club with no reputation, it's easy to counterattack your way to at least 4 back-to-back promotions and eventually to premier league glory. It's just a longer-term save. With Liverpool at least the opponents play ultra-defensively, which can sometimes be challenging to crack. 

i respect your opinion my good lad but let me to disagree. At least for me its easier to have Liverpool and take all trophies and stay on the top all times than manage Wealdstone and try to reach the Premier League or Ch L and Europa League 

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, Impacto said:

People still think that FM is a realistic simulation game and treat it as such. Do you guys know a manager that doesn't take part in team training? Do you know a manager that goes and negotiates every little detail about a player's contract? Like how many pounds he is going to earn by scoring a goal or playing an international game? Yeah, that's what I thought. There are things in the game to make it FUN and not realistic. And that's ok, because games are meant to be fun. 

As Miles said in an interview once, the game was created to put you in charge of your favorite team, but unlike other games, the world around you would be alive. Evolving, and trying to simulate real life. And that is what it does to this day and it does it better than anybody else. The problem is, the AI world is too easy to exploit and the managing of your team is also too easy to perfect. It's easy even for the casuals. We've already read so many stories of people having it too easy. FM has always been a bit on the easy side once you learn how it works, but in recent years it has gotten way easier. The balance is off!

People will always complain. If the game is too hard the forum will be flooded with topics about it. New players will constantly complain and you can never satisfy 100% of the people. This is why many games include difficulty settings - so more people can enjoy the game depending on their skill. I hate to break it to you guys, but this is A GAME! And games are designed to be fun. For some people it's fun to win, win, win and move on. For some people fun is lose, lose, lose and figure out how to win. Both of these types of players are important and the devs should aim to satisfy both. 

Okay, including a difficulty setting is not practical for FM and we already have ways to increase difficulty ourselves, but that doesn't fix the main issue. So either the game needs to be more balanced in general or keep it easy the way it is now and include an option to make it harder for the people that want a challenge. 

Right know we can't even agree if the game is too easy or too hard because people are different. So give us a way to customize the game the way we want, so everybody can enjoy it. It's time to evolve, being stuck in the same mindset for many years doesn't leave room for evolution. I know it's hard, but change is good. 

Brian Clough and Ian Holloway wern't on the training field too often and cloughie more or less handled all players contracts etc, but I would agree this is less so in the modern game

[laurentius82]

2 hours ago, gamietaihsi said:

i respect your opinion my good lad but let me to disagree. At least for me its easier to have Liverpool and take all trophies and stay on the top all times than manage Wealdstone and try to reach the Premier League or Ch L and Europa League 

Well at least it does take slightly longer with Wealdstone. ; It's also true that once you get to the top, you never ever fall off the top again. 

[EazyEee]

10 hours ago, Impacto said:

People still think that FM is a realistic simulation game and treat it as such. Do you guys know a manager that doesn't take part in team training? Do you know a manager that goes and negotiates every little detail about a player's contract? Like how many pounds he is going to earn by scoring a goal or playing an international game? Yeah, that's what I thought. There are things in the game to make it FUN and not realistic. And that's ok, because games are meant to be fun. 

As Miles said in an interview once, the game was created to put you in charge of your favorite team, but unlike other games, the world around you would be alive. Evolving, and trying to simulate real life. And that is what it does to this day and it does it better than anybody else. The problem is, the AI world is too easy to exploit and the managing of your team is also too easy to perfect. It's easy even for the casuals. We've already read so many stories of people having it too easy. FM has always been a bit on the easy side once you learn how it works, but in recent years it has gotten way easier. The balance is off!

People will always complain. If the game is too hard the forum will be flooded with topics about it. New players will constantly complain and you can never satisfy 100% of the people. This is why many games include difficulty settings - so more people can enjoy the game depending on their skill. I hate to break it to you guys, but this is A GAME! And games are designed to be fun. For some people it's fun to win, win, win and move on. For some people fun is lose, lose, lose and figure out how to win. Both of these types of players are important and the devs should aim to satisfy both. 

Okay, including a difficulty setting is not practical for FM and we already have ways to increase difficulty ourselves, but that doesn't fix the main issue. So either the game needs to be more balanced in general or keep it easy the way it is now and include an option to make it harder for the people that want a challenge. 

Right know we can't even agree if the game is too easy or too hard because people are different. So give us a way to customize the game the way we want, so everybody can enjoy it. It's time to evolve, being stuck in the same mindset for many years doesn't leave room for evolution. I know it's hard, but change is good. 

Totally agree with all here ... aside from mangers taking part in training after watching the Jose Mourinho docu :D.

[Icy]

I'm not in favor of difficulty levels as I can't see how can they be implemented, lowering the opposite teams attributes as FIFA does (totally against realism)? raising your team budget (you can do it yourself with the editor anytime anwyay), more forgiving board (choose a different team then)?

For me the problem is not the difficulty levels but that the game is hard for newcomers because confusing interface and lack or not proper information provided by the game and it's easy because AI is not good enough counter acting human tactics/tweaks and is not good at squad building long term (even if better than before).

Solutions:

1) Better UI and I don't mean usability but proper information in the text descriptions and concepts used specially in the tactics creator. Better feedback from the staff. This will make the game "easier".

2) Better AI regarding the tactics/in match reactions, less dependent from many decision of PA/CA and more on individual attributes, form, stats, age, etc as veteran players do for squad building, team selection, youngest development etc. This will make the game "harder".

Edited September 3, 2020 by Icy

[EazyEee]

No came can cater for all players at a single difficulty level, this is why the majority of games have difficulty levels included. If SI make the base game harder it'll alienate new & casual gamers.

There are countless ways to make things like assembling a good squad, managing that squad and keeping your job harder without touching the Match Engine.

[HawaiianHippo]

I don't personally think difficulty of opposition or AI is something that needs to be changed too much, of course some transfers by AI can be a tad odd and management but overall wouldn't say that's the issue. I've always felt it seems too easy to get back to back promotions and grow quickly, but ultimately that it's a game and you can take much bigger risks than a real manager would. 

Not only this, ultimately, this is a game, and every game pretty much has exploits, whether that be skill moves, weapons or in FM's case, formations, man management, shouts etc. 

[masno]

I really don't understand why people are so against it. If one day SI implemented difficult levels, obviously they would maintain a normal difficult that is the usual gameplay nowadays for people that are disliking it, but wouldn't hurt to have two modes, one for people that want it to be easier, and one for people that want it to be harder. I don't really understand the whole premise of not wanting it in the game.

If you dislike the idea, then don't use any of this modes, but simply don't take others peoples right to change their way to play the game in a different way that you like it. Nowadays the game is in a state where is too complex for new players to get it right off the bat, and too easy for veterans that knows everything the game has to offer, also like I was discussing days ago, it is also too limited in the tactical aspect of the ME, probably to help the majority of the player base to understand what they are doing. For this game to evolve, the next big step will be this, divide the player base in 2 or 3, between the ones who wants the usual game,the usual AI that can't build squads and is easily beaten, and the players that want the AI to be harder, to actually challenge the player.

[Peter Morgan]

39 minutes ago, masno said:

For this game to evolve, the next big step will be this, divide the player base in 2 or 3, between the ones who wants the usual game,the usual AI that can't build squads and is easily beaten, and the players that want the AI to be harder, to actually challenge the player.

I think this is the fundamental problem. The AI is the AI. All these years of FM releases and AI squad building is still not good. If the AI could be made more superpowered it would already be in the game.

If the game was to have a 'hard' mode, it would have to look elsewhere, such as lower transfer or wage budgets, but lower league teams have this anyway! I don't believe there is anything that SI can add to the game to make it harder than what is already in there (starting rep, lower league, lower rep leagues etc...)

Personally, I think SI would say that there are already ways to make it harder in game and to use those options instead.

[dannysheard]

On 01/09/2020 at 10:56, Analog said:

This exact thread seems to crop up from time to time, and I never quite understand it.  Want the game to be harder?  Make it harder for yourself then?  There's many ways to do that.

So, would you suggest that every game that currently has difficulty levels (which is the vast majority of games), should have those difficulty levels removed, and the player should think of ways themselves to make the game harder?

For example, on Fifa, if you're good, only using one hand to use the controller? If you're very good, not using a controller at all? And for elite players, you can turn the computer on, but not the TV? It might work...

[dannysheard]

On 01/09/2020 at 20:32, Federico said:

People is so eager for difficulty levels that they can't see how not viable (i'd say stupid but I don't want to sound offensive) this can be.

"Yeah we want AI harder to play!"

What does it mean? are you asking for SI to deliberately cheat you by making opponents a bunch of super-heroes with 21 in each one of their attributes? Do you mean you want their goalkeeper saving every stone thrown at him and yours not even capable to collect a candy from the pitch? Do you want a constant, unstoppable loss of money when your opponents are richer than every PL clubs, doubling their income day after day?

And how do you think SI could cope with bugs referring to every single level of difficulty?

At the moment, my point of view, we are extremely far from seeing something barely acceptable to what is real football, and you want every parameter in the code to be changed because you want a challange?

Please, play Vibonese in Italian Serie C, and get the CL trophy in 4 years as you usally do with british clubs. Maybe avoid downloading exploitable tactics, for those who do that. Stop reloading, don't purchase any RTE and make your own tactic and training session, gegenpressen is forbidden. That's what I do.

good luck!

I'd very happily have a more difficult mode, where, for example, all opposition attributes are effectively raised by a number or a % when you play that team.

It's not an ideal solution, but it's what they do in lots of games, such as Civilization where the AI get a combat bonus, amongst other things, which increases as the difficulty level increases.

Again, it's not perfect but it is a generally accepted way to make games harder for saddos like me that have played them a lot over the years. 

[dannysheard]

On 02/09/2020 at 12:20, EazyEee said:

The current FM game is an arcade version of football, and that’s what makes it fun. 
 

Having an extreme mode would just make adjustments to make the game more life like and In turn offer a challenge to the longer term players. Not sure why it’s being turned into some competition, this is a single player game, who cares if some play on an “hard” mode?

 

Also as it would be totally optional I don’t see how it detracts from base FM. As for bugs etc, the majority of games have difficulty levels, FM had a classic mode back in 14 which was a streamlined version of the game.

I think this is the heart of the issue... people have had years of thinking they are amazing, football managers, myself included, and all of a sudden having a difficult mode where they struggle would burst that bubble.

They don't want difficult settings, even though they wouldn't have to select the harder mode, because they like the illusion they're nearly perfect at the game.

I used to play Fifa a bit, and got to the level next to the top one, and was happy to accept that I wasn't at the very best level. This is because a) I hadn't played it as much as some other people, b) I wasn't as naturally good as some other people and c) I used to absolute lose the plot when I conceded a dodgy goal. That was fine. It didn't make me a bad person that I wasn't at the top level. I just wasn't at that level. 

[EazyEee]

Im not sure if previous games were like this but I find on FM20, once you put together a decent squad you suddenly start dominating games against much much better teams.

So I'm currently playing with Crotone, first season was a good challenge keeping them up, and second season was a good challenging securing a safe finish. However, third season now after getting a couple decent transfers in and a few months of getting the tactics & selection in place I'm suddenly dominating vs all the mid-table / top half sides, and even had 60% possession vs Champions Juventus as well as out performing Inter. Year after Im challenging for UCL positions, games vs mid table and top half are a breeze.

And this is the point where I stop playing the save as it feels silly that my Crotone team can be dominating vs the leagues best. There either needs to be a better balancing in place, or difficulty levels introduced. As I said earlier, I understand SI have to cater to the casual players who are 90% of the player base but please give the more experienced players a challenge too.

P.S. I don't find/download tactics online etc

 

 

[Shenmue-X]

AI managers have PA and CA so the difficulty sliders are already there,, although invisible and uncontrollable.

I back the concept of level of realism rather of difficulty.

Are AI managers trying to teach new position to some players like human players can do? If yes, according which factors?

They are many grays of gameplay in FM but I wonder if the AI plainly uses of them and efficiently.

[moz08]

I agree with pretty much everything dannysheard says.

What's frustrating about this is the game used to be much harder in this context.  Sadly, I'm old enough to have played the old SI Championship Manager game in the 90s.  It could be pretty difficult to succeed in cm97-98, for example, even with bigger clubs. In cm97-98 I've been sacked with Celtic, Villa, Bayern, Inter Milan, etc., because I didn't deliver almost instant success, and I've been relegated/failed to improve so many clubs.  And I'm not that bad at the game, just average.  I don't play FM that much now because I'm time constrained, but I've played enough to know that it's been much easier to succeed at it for a number of years.  And this is confirmed by what I read on these forums: any experienced player can take almost any team to glory pretty quickly, and no-one who knows what they're doing ever seems to get the sack with a bigger club.

The obvious explanation for this 'adjustment' is to make the game more appealing to the casual gamer.  But if this is the case why make the game increasingly more sophisticated and detailed (and time consuming)?  If they want to make a game for casual/younger consumers then it would make more sense to make it simpler in design, as well as easier to succeed.  If they want to make a game for the hard-core 'nerds' like me (no offence to anyone) then it would make more sense to make it much more difficult to succeed, as well as more complex in design.

As it stands the game falls between two stools: too complicated to understand maybe for casual players who want an arcade game, but too easy to succeed for the hard-core nerds.  So few people are completely satisfied.

FM touch doesn't resolve this.  It's just a quicker version.  Same dilemma.

FM (previously CM) has been a part of my life for 25 years.  It's an amazing game, by far the best football manager sim ever (and I was involved behind the scenes in a rival game at one point, which no longer exists).  The work that's put into this is incredible.

It's just a shame that those of us who want a game that's realistic in detail AND realistic in difficulty have 'lost' this game over the years, as it's become increasingly easier to succeed.  Yes I know you can make it more difficult by managing a bankrupt third tier club in France, not sign anyone, mask attributes, etc., but we shouldn't have to do all this.  We should be able to take charge of United, Spurs, Dortmund, etc., play it vanilla, and find it just as challenging to succeed as it would be in real life.

[Mars_Blackmon]

I was against difficulty levels but I’ve realized that too many things are “relaxed” in favor of the casual players...

 

there should be options to...

1. increase injuries

2. increase fatigue

3. reduce rate of tactic familiarity 

4. maybe this is a global thing but AI teams need to be more aggressive in the transfer market aside from making smart signings

[zsolt86]

I'm a beginner and I'm playing with West Ham, after building some reputation starting from the second division of the hungarian league and spending couple of seasons in Austria. But to be honest I achieved this by replaying some games( yes I'm a cheater, a shame of the fm community ) and the game still drives me crazy. I think having different difficulty levels would be nice. You can't expect everyone to have the same passion and patience as some of you guys. Now I should have started with a giant team that's true, but what goal do I get by that, to maintain the already existing reputation? That sounds boring.  

[Andy1979]

Play fmt.