Gegenpressing: The Roadmap to German Efficiency

[xHoffefan]

Thank you very much for this wonderful post. I had absolutely no luck with possession tactics so I tried this gegenpressing tactic with Heidenheim too. Got promoted first season, finished 1st.  Had problems with the attacking tactic (many balls over top of defenders, so I only used the positive one)

I have just seen your training guide and wondered what do you do for pre season?

 

One thing I noticed: my U19 players are criticising the training (too much pace / strenght training)

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by xHoffefan

[AceAvenger]

On 31/03/2020 at 21:24, xHoffefan said:

Thank you very much for this wonderful post. I had absolutely no luck with possession tactics so I tried this gegenpressing tactic with Heidenheim too. Got promoted first season, finished 1st.  Had problems with the attacking tactic (many balls over top of defenders, so I only used the positive one)

I have just seen your training guide and wondered what do you do for pre season?

 

One thing I noticed: my U19 players are criticising the training (too much pace / strenght training)

 

 

 

For pre-season I go for the tactical set-up, so I can get familiarized with the tactics as fast as possible. I don't worry about match fitness as I schedule a lot of fixtures and rotate my squad as much as I can.

As for the U19s complaining, it's alright, mine do too. Just keep going, they don't know what is good for them.

Edited April 2, 2020 by AceAvenger

[AceAvenger]

Heidenheim: 2022/2023 Update

Another season has passed, another year trying to develop the perfect gegenpressing squad. How did we do?

Pretty poorly actually.

As you can see from the above screenshots, some of the attributes I highlighted previously increased, while others decreased. Acceleration, stamina, anticipation and teamwork increased to 5^th, 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th respectively; determination and work rate dropped to 7^th and 3^rd while we are rock bottom for aggression.

This is telling that I didn’t follow through with my squad building as I hope I would have. I’ll be looking to try and remedy this but honestly, in terms of ability, I’m happy with my squad.

How did we do in the league then?

We did one better than last season, both in terms of position and points, coming in 2^nd and collecting one more point. However, we could have done better because we had a mini implosion after the Winterpause (winter break), were we were spanked 4-0 by a midtable Hannover and then lost two more after.

 

After that I went crazy trying to change the tactic to see what would improve the team, I tried having the IWs on support and removing the look for overlap, I tried having a Complete Forward (CF) on support upfront with a Shadow Striker (SS) behind him. I even went for a Very Attacking mentality, with everyone of support duties, just to see if fluidity was what the team needed. Nothing stuck, probably because they were familiar with the other set-ups.

I went back to the formation I started with; the only difference is I removed roam from position from my IWs because their off the ball (OTB) is nothing to write home about. Our form got better, we got to the quarter-finals of the Europa League after coming in 3^rd in the CL, in a modestly tough group of Real Sociedad, Benfica and Liverpool. What really delighted me is that we got to the final of the DFB-Pokal, which meant we could finally get a chance to win our first piece of silverware.

 

We didn’t. 

So, it’s onto next season. Honestly, I’m really thinking of starting another save, with a smaller team and really setting out a proper plan to building a team. The next year will be my 5^th at Heidenheim, which is the longest I’ve been with a team since FM11 or 12 with Gladbach. I want to have a 10 year save, with a focus on youth development, which is difficult with Heidenheim as I don’t have a B team (or a II club as it’s called in Germany).

I will see how it goes, if I win something next year, I will definitely start a new save. Even though I wouldn’t have seen the new stadium come to fruition I would have at least set the building blocks as it is in the pipeline to be moved into in 2025.

Who would you guys like me to be, I have a few prerequisites for a club I’m going to jump into, it has to be:

1. German.
2. In the lower leagues, preferably 3. Liga but maybe 2. Bundesliga is it’s just been promoted or struggling with relegation.
3. Has the following facilities:
   • Minimum adequate, preferably average youth and training facilities.
   • Minimum average, preferably adequate youth coaching (don’t ask me why this is inverted).
   • Minimum fairly basic, preferably average youth recruitment.
4. Has a II club.

If you look in the editor to find clubs with these specification, you will find this gives us 11 teams:

• VfB Stuttgart
• Hamburger SV
• Hannover 96
• 1. FC Nürnberg
• 1. FC Kaiserslautern
• SpVgg Greuther Fürth
• TSV 1860 München
• 1. FC Magdeburg
• FC Hansa Rostock
• SV Waldhof Mannheim
• FC Carl Zeiss Jena

From that list, Stuttgart and Hamburg are out from the get go. They’re massive clubs that are faltering at the moment, but nonetheless massive clubs. Hannover and Nürnberg are yoyo clubs between the Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga and not struggling with relegation.

Of the teams we are left with, the one that stands out to me the most is Hansa Rostock. They’ve got the best facilities of the rest and they’re in the 3. Liga. They were giants of the DDR-Oberliga, although they won their only top flight title in the intermediate year before the former East German teams joined the Bundesliga but after the fall of the wall. I’ve wanted to play as a team from the former GDR for a long time, because it’s a joke that the only East German team in the Bundesliga is RB Leipzig. Red Bull, the company, only started 4 years before the fall of the wall.

What do you guys think, who should I be in the next save?

Edited April 4, 2020 by AceAvenger

[Tcufrog]

12 hours ago, AceAvenger said:

Heidenheim: 2022/2023 Update

Another season has passed, another year trying to develop the perfect gegenpressing squad. How did we do?

Pretty poorly actually.

As you can see from the above screenshots, some of the attributes I highlighted previously increased, while others decreased. Acceleration, stamina, anticipation and teamwork increased to 5^th, 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th respectively; determination and work rate dropped to 7^th and 3^rd while we are rock bottom for aggression.

This is telling that I didn’t follow through with my squad building as I hope I would have. I’ll be looking to try and remedy this but honestly, in terms of ability, I’m happy with my squad.

How did we do in the league then?

We did one better than last season, both in terms of position and points, coming in 2^nd and collecting one more point. However, we could have done better because we had a mini implosion after the Winterpause (winter break), were we were spanked 4-0 by a midtable Hannover and then lost two more after.

 

After that I went crazy trying to change the tactic to see what would improve the team, I tried having the IWs on support and removing the look for overlap, I tried having a Complete Forward (CF) on support upfront with a Shadow Striker (SS) behind him. I even went for a Very Attacking mentality, with everyone of support duties, just to see if fluidity was what the team needed. Nothing stuck, probably because they were familiar with the other set-ups.

I went back to the formation I started with; the only difference is I removed roam from position from my IWs because their off the ball (OTB) is nothing to write home about. Our form got better, we got to the quarter-finals of the Europa League after coming in 3^rd in the CL, in a modestly tough group of Real Sociedad, Benfica and Liverpool. What really delighted me is that we got to the final of the DFB-Pokal, which meant we could finally get a chance to win our first piece of silverware.

 

We didn’t. 

So, it’s onto next season. Honestly, I’m really thinking of starting another save, with a smaller team and really setting out a proper plan to building a team. The next year will be my 5^th at Heidenheim, which is the longest I’ve been with a team since FM11 or 12 with Gladbach. I want to have a 10 year save, with a focus on youth development, which is difficult with Heidenheim as I don’t have a B team (or a II club as it’s called in Germany).

I will see how it goes, if I win something next year, I will definitely start a new save. Even though I wouldn’t have seen the new stadium come to fruition I would have at least set the building blocks as it is in the pipeline to be moved into in 2025.

Who would you guys like me to be, I have a few prerequisites for a club I’m going to jump into, it has to be:

1. German.
2. In the lower leagues, preferably 3. Liga but maybe 2. Bundesliga is it’s just been promoted or struggling with relegation.
3. Has the following facilities:
   • Minimum adequate, preferably average youth and training facilities.
   • Minimum average, preferably adequate youth coaching (don’t ask me why this is inverted).
   • Minimum fairly basic, preferably average youth recruitment.
4. Has a II club.

If you look in the editor to find clubs with these specification, you will find this gives us 11 teams:

• VfB Stuttgart
• Hamburger SV
• Hannover 96
• 1. FC Nürnberg
• 1. FC Kaiserslautern
• SpVgg Greuther Fürth
• TSV 1860 München
• 1. FC Magdeburg
• FC Hansa Rostock
• SV Waldhof Mannheim
• FC Carl Zeiss Jena

From that list, Stuttgart and Hamburg are out from the get go. They’re massive clubs that are faltering at the moment, but nonetheless massive clubs. Hannover and Nürnberg are yoyo clubs between the Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga and not struggling with relegation.

Of the teams we are left with, the one that stands out to me the most is Hansa Rostock. They’ve got the best facilities of the rest and they’re in the 3. Liga. They were giants of the DDR-Oberliga, although they won their only top flight title in the intermediate year before the former East German teams joined the Bundesliga but after the fall of the wall. I’ve wanted to play as a team from the former GDR for a long time, because it’s a joke that the only East German team in the Bundesliga is RB Leipzig. Red Bull, the company, only started 4 years before the fall of the wall.

What do you guys think, who should I be in the next save?

Great update, would like to see you stick with this save but if you pick a new team, it should be 1860. I’ve been playing with them for two years now, and they’re a lot of fun. Great city to grow into, you can try to knock off Bayern, and you can come up from the 3. Bundesliga. 
 

with your new team will you stick to the Gegenpressing strategy? 

[HanziZoloman]

On 25/03/2020 at 16:35, AceAvenger said:

Marc Schnatterer Park, named after Heidenheim's most capped and highest scoring player (who was also a beast in the first season with me but since he was 34 his attributes dropped like an anvil). The goal is to win a piece of silverware to christen the new stadium.

Haha Great stuff! Great threat. I am reading it in the middle of a sleepless night and looking forward to morning dawn. My Kaiserslautern squad needs some inspiration. 
I also have some questions: how’s your training during the season? — is answered!!

and: maybe it’s a little much tactic for lower league squads?

thanks for your work! Just great read!

Edited April 5, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

On 04/04/2020 at 14:16, AceAvenger said:

FC Hansa Rostock

This one please

we could play an online career, and I take Kaiserslautern or Mannheim.

Edited April 5, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Guest]

1860 please 

[Bot Makel]

On 16/03/2020 at 11:07, AceAvenger said:

 

The CWB is on support because with the Looks for Overlaps TI it'll push the mentality of the player to Attacking, keeping it the same as the IWs. If I just had both the IWs and the CWBs on attack they'll both be Very Attacking and then they'll just lose the ball too often by being overzealous with possession.

As you can see below, this is the mentality of the role with Looks for Overlap

Here is the same role without Looks for Overlap

I will definitely do that right now, I was planning on giving an update but I got side-tracked by looking for a potential new save.

Thank you guys for the appreciation, it's lovely to see that I'm not alone in my unhealthy obsession with this game.

In my tactic, i use a 4-1dm-4midfielder-1 Liverpool's klopp style, i use CWBs and IWs in support to implement the same mentality (positive). I use PI for IWs get further forward. 

[RageMaster]

@AceAvenger Love this thread! Some really good discussion in here and I have tried out your tactics to some very good success. I had a lot of fun with Mannheim in the 3. Liga and they've got some decent young players to work with who can also cut it further up the divisions. Would be great to see you try them however I also love your idea about Rostock especially since they are East German and would be great to get them into the Top Division and would be interested in seeing you build them up. 

[Irn Rvd]

On 04/04/2020 at 08:16, AceAvenger said:

Heidenheim: 2022/2023 Update

Another season has passed, another year trying to develop the perfect gegenpressing squad. How did we do?

Pretty poorly actually.

As you can see from the above screenshots, some of the attributes I highlighted previously increased, while others decreased. Acceleration, stamina, anticipation and teamwork increased to 5^th, 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th respectively; determination and work rate dropped to 7^th and 3^rd while we are rock bottom for aggression.

This is telling that I didn’t follow through with my squad building as I hope I would have. I’ll be looking to try and remedy this but honestly, in terms of ability, I’m happy with my squad.

How did we do in the league then?

We did one better than last season, both in terms of position and points, coming in 2^nd and collecting one more point. However, we could have done better because we had a mini implosion after the Winterpause (winter break), were we were spanked 4-0 by a midtable Hannover and then lost two more after.

 

After that I went crazy trying to change the tactic to see what would improve the team, I tried having the IWs on support and removing the look for overlap, I tried having a Complete Forward (CF) on support upfront with a Shadow Striker (SS) behind him. I even went for a Very Attacking mentality, with everyone of support duties, just to see if fluidity was what the team needed. Nothing stuck, probably because they were familiar with the other set-ups.

I went back to the formation I started with; the only difference is I removed roam from position from my IWs because their off the ball (OTB) is nothing to write home about. Our form got better, we got to the quarter-finals of the Europa League after coming in 3^rd in the CL, in a modestly tough group of Real Sociedad, Benfica and Liverpool. What really delighted me is that we got to the final of the DFB-Pokal, which meant we could finally get a chance to win our first piece of silverware.

 

We didn’t. 

So, it’s onto next season. Honestly, I’m really thinking of starting another save, with a smaller team and really setting out a proper plan to building a team. The next year will be my 5^th at Heidenheim, which is the longest I’ve been with a team since FM11 or 12 with Gladbach. I want to have a 10 year save, with a focus on youth development, which is difficult with Heidenheim as I don’t have a B team (or a II club as it’s called in Germany).

I will see how it goes, if I win something next year, I will definitely start a new save. Even though I wouldn’t have seen the new stadium come to fruition I would have at least set the building blocks as it is in the pipeline to be moved into in 2025.

Who would you guys like me to be, I have a few prerequisites for a club I’m going to jump into, it has to be:

1. German.
2. In the lower leagues, preferably 3. Liga but maybe 2. Bundesliga is it’s just been promoted or struggling with relegation.
3. Has the following facilities:
   • Minimum adequate, preferably average youth and training facilities.
   • Minimum average, preferably adequate youth coaching (don’t ask me why this is inverted).
   • Minimum fairly basic, preferably average youth recruitment.
4. Has a II club.

If you look in the editor to find clubs with these specification, you will find this gives us 11 teams:

• VfB Stuttgart
• Hamburger SV
• Hannover 96
• 1. FC Nürnberg
• 1. FC Kaiserslautern
• SpVgg Greuther Fürth
• TSV 1860 München
• 1. FC Magdeburg
• FC Hansa Rostock
• SV Waldhof Mannheim
• FC Carl Zeiss Jena

From that list, Stuttgart and Hamburg are out from the get go. They’re massive clubs that are faltering at the moment, but nonetheless massive clubs. Hannover and Nürnberg are yoyo clubs between the Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga and not struggling with relegation.

Of the teams we are left with, the one that stands out to me the most is Hansa Rostock. They’ve got the best facilities of the rest and they’re in the 3. Liga. They were giants of the DDR-Oberliga, although they won their only top flight title in the intermediate year before the former East German teams joined the Bundesliga but after the fall of the wall. I’ve wanted to play as a team from the former GDR for a long time, because it’s a joke that the only East German team in the Bundesliga is RB Leipzig. Red Bull, the company, only started 4 years before the fall of the wall.

What do you guys think, who should I be in the next save?

hansa rostock have good facilities? that sounds like a great save if they are in league3. I might jump on that bandwagon too lol. Hamburger SV looks like a really good potential save too.

[Saras-13-Bodiroga]

do you train players any specific ppms?

[AceAvenger]

11 hours ago, Saras-13-Bodiroga said:

do you train players any specific ppms?

I look to get my fullbacks to have get further forward, and my wingers and attacking midfielders to have play 1-2s and look for killer balls. My playmaker has to have dictates tempo too.

I really don't understand this game or my team. 

We've only ever beaten Hertha once too in the 4 and a bit years I've been managing Heidenheim.

 

[DocSnyder]

Fantastic post AceAvenger! I´ll try to awake another fallen East-German giant - Magdeburg is calling.

[HanziZoloman]

18 hours ago, AceAvenger said:

We've only ever beaten Hertha once too in the 4 and a bit years I've been managing Heidenheim.

Seems to be an Angstgegner.

 

BTW: Topp stuff! I just tweaked a little here and there and it works so well that my lads are beating every history record this season. They're on fire every match. Kaiserslautern is btw the perfect pressing machine with many players fitting the mental attributes. 

The 442 works best for me.

My only defeat was against Hansa Rostock (thats a sign to you .. ) 

Edited April 8, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[AceAvenger]

It was meant to be.

Look at the state of those 2 weeks. It's either going to be two very good or very very bad weeks for me.

I'm rushing through this final season, just trying to get it finished so I can get started in the lower leagues again and develop the tactics from the lower leagues up.

[HanziZoloman]

20 minutes ago, AceAvenger said:

It was meant to be.

Look at the state of those 2 weeks. It's either going to be two very good or very very bad weeks for me.

I'm rushing through this final season, just trying to get it finished so I can get started in the lower leagues again and develop the tactics from the lower leagues up.

I am „drücking the Daumens“ for you 

maybe your former Bayern Youth players are motivated to show off

Edited April 8, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Irn Rvd]

2 hours ago, AceAvenger said:

It was meant to be.

Look at the state of those 2 weeks. It's either going to be two very good or very very bad weeks for me.

I'm rushing through this final season, just trying to get it finished so I can get started in the lower leagues again and develop the tactics from the lower leagues up.

oh my word lol. Let us know how you get on!!!

Bust the net did a video on recreating Marco Biesla tactics yesterday on youtube but I cant seem to find it now. The video shows how you can press really high while using specific man marking instructions. Very interesting. I tested against a few weak teams last night and their midfield could not make a pass.

[DocSnyder]

Am 7.4.2020 um 17:19 schrieb DocSnyder:

Fantastic post AceAvenger! I´ll try to awake another fallen East-German giant - Magdeburg is calling.

Wow. Really great tactic, thank you!

Most goals (38), least conceded (8), most clean sheets (14), 57% Avg. Possession (3rd), 85% passing accuracy (3rd), 88% tackling completion (3rd)...with a team which was 6th in the season preview (Odds 6,00). 

Playing a wonderful football even now with the "vanilla team"...I'm looking forward to the action with better players. 

 

[HanziZoloman]

10 minutes ago, DocSnyder said:

Playing a wonderful football even now with the "vanilla team"...I'm looking forward to the action with better players

Well .. it's a little wierd isn't it?! 

maybe we could fix a three players challenge in 3rd Liga you, me and ace?!

[DocSnyder]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb HanziZoloman:

Well .. it's a little wierd isn't it?! 

maybe we could fix a three players challenge in 3rd Liga you, me and ace?!

 

Haha...or an online save and destroying the league^^

[HanziZoloman]

30 minutes ago, DocSnyder said:

Haha...or an online save and destroying the league^^

That's what I mean

[AceAvenger]

8 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I am „drücking the Daumens“ for you 

maybe your former Bayern Youth players are motivated to show off

I just noticed I have 5 players who have come through at Bayern or are on loan from Bayern, which is insane. I think I took that too seriously. Or not seriously enough!

*Proceeds to build a Bayern B team and wins the league with it*

6 hours ago, Irn Rvd said:

oh my word lol. Let us know how you get on!!!

Bust the net did a video on recreating Marco Biesla tactics yesterday on youtube but I cant seem to find it now. The video shows how you can press really high while using specific man marking instructions. Very interesting. I tested against a few weak teams last night and their midfield could not make a pass.

It was a mixed bag.

I got knocked out of the CL 4-2 on aggregate, the loss in the league was the chance to overtake them and become first but I missed it and Bayern don't drop too many points but I knocked them out of the Pokal though which is amazing because I'm still sour about losing the cup last year.

2 hours ago, DocSnyder said:

Wow. Really great tactic, thank you!

Most goals (38), least conceded (8), most clean sheets (14), 57% Avg. Possession (3rd), 85% passing accuracy (3rd), 88% tackling completion (3rd)...with a team which was 6th in the season preview (Odds 6,00). 

Playing a wonderful football even now with the "vanilla team"...I'm looking forward to the action with better players. 

 

That is amazing! I'm so glad you and everyone else is succeeding with the tactic, I honestly didn't know if it was good or I was just lucky.

2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Well .. it's a little wierd isn't it?! 

maybe we could fix a three players challenge in 3rd Liga you, me and ace?!

Oh God you would not want to play a network game with me, the ping would be horrendous. I know that that might not seem to matter for FM, but it's so annoying having to wait a couple of minutes to do anything.

[HanziZoloman]

But it is worth a try .. 

[AceAvenger]

Heidenheim: 2023/2024 Update

The final year, the end of a 5 year project. I'm not going to lie, I haven't been this invested in a save as much as I have with this in years, maybe ever.

Yeah maybe it's a good thing I don't get this invested. 

Let's start with the league:

We finished 4 points behind Bayern Munich and if we turned that Bayern loss in that fateful fortnight into a win that still wouldn't have been enough. We drew too many game, the worst 2 being against rock bottom Mainz after they've already been relegated and one against Bayer Leverkusen were we were 2-0 up and snatched a draw from the jaws of victory by scoring two own goals. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

In the Champions League we did a lot better than I expected, when we got the group I thought we had an amazing chance to advance to the round of 16; we were drawn against Real Madrid, Rostov and Club Brugge. Russia and Belgium aren't loaded in my save therefore I was licking my lips knowing I'd be facing a lot of greyed out fictional players.

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to do the double over Real Madrid and top the group, that one draw was against Rostov away. *insert joke about how Germans don't do so well in Russia*

We drew Lille in the RO16 and we made quick work of them only to get knocked out by Bayern.

This meant the only thing left to crown by many hours in this save with a trophy was the DFB-Pokal, once we dispatched Bayern in the semi-final, it was only Schalke standing between us and (virtual) immortality. Fittingly it was also my 200th game in charge.

The teams on the night were:

As you can see, Schalke have a pretty decent side and we have a very even head-to-head history with 3 wins each and 2 draws.

I was *this* close to throwing my laptop out the window. Best part about the win is that Niklas Dorsch, club captain and the only player from the original squad I inherited to remain in the squad, let alone in the starting 11, was the man of the match. He's been with us through it all and is the OG Bayern 'reject'. 

I'm going to give a break down of my squad, what we do well and what we can do better in the next post.

[AceAvenger]

31 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

But it is worth a try .. 

We could have a Discord group together? We can talk all things Football Manager. I was thinking of starting one a while back, just so I can stop annoying my family by describing what my transfer strategy for the January market would be.

[Jungztar]

This a great thread and a great approach to the gegenpressing! I will dive in to ressurecting der Dino (HSV) and use this approach as inspiration....

[Djuicer]

Great thread this, have you decided on a new team yet? If not my vote goes to 1860 München!

[HanziZoloman]

19 hours ago, AceAvenger said:

We could have a Discord group together? We can talk all things Football Manager. I was thinking of starting one a while back, just so I can stop annoying my family by describing what my transfer strategy for the January market would be.

Of course, I can understand it’s much time. Your idea with the group is great I‘m in. 
I am sorry for your losses against Bayern maybe they knew that Dorsch & co weren’t good enough  

just joking.. congratulations for the silverware. The dfb Pokal and runnersup in the League plus L8 in CL is big. I have not been this far with a lower league club.

Great save, I have learnt much! You played mostly the 4411 formation? 

 

I have linked a picture of a 'Härtefall' it means I am not sure to anew the contract, because mentally he is one of the best but technically well not. What do you think as it is your developed system.

 

edit: during end of the season many players decreased in their ability. Did you suffer this too?

Edited April 9, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Smiza]

Thanks for the great read. I will try to implement this, because I have been trouble creating something successful myself!

Edited April 10, 2020 by Smiza

[uroszila]

A very good read indeed. Thanks, @AceAvenger for this, its very inspirational.

I thought a bit about this and we could make a really good challenge from this one. For example:

1. You need to choose a team in 3. Liga or 2. Bundesliga
2. You need to use your own tactic (not the one posted in this topic) but with the gegenpress principles mentioned in the opening posts
3. You have 7 seasons (or 5 seasons if you start in 2. Bundesliga) to win as many trophies as you can
4. To add a little bit pinch of the salt - you are only allowed to sign players with attribute level at least 12 on the 7 most important attributes for the gegenpress (Aggression, Anticipation, Determination, Teamwork, Work rate, Acceleration, Stamina)

Would anyone be interested in this?

[coach vahid]

Just a reflection ...

Why not use the roles at our disposal which press aggressively on the sides (IW -> Defensive Winger on support) and in the middle (DLP and VOL--> BWM). It's just to find out if it wouldn't make more sense in Gegenpressing style. 

[DerKopite]

Just wanted to drop in and say that this thread is great. I wish there was more like it about; but they seem very few-and-far-between sadly. Keep up the good work! 

Funnily enough I'm looking to implement something similar in my 1.FC Köln save.

[DocSnyder]

Am 8.4.2020 um 17:55 schrieb DocSnyder:

Wow. Really great tactic, thank you!

Most goals (38), least conceded (8), most clean sheets (14), 57% Avg. Possession (3rd), 85% passing accuracy (3rd), 88% tackling completion (3rd)...with a team which was 6th in the season preview (Odds 6,00). 

Playing a wonderful football even now with the "vanilla team"...I'm looking forward to the action with better players. 

 

 

We won the league with 84 points. Second year - second promotion, 2nd place in Zweite Bundesliga with 72 points. Fantastic! Hello Bundesliga, the only winner of an international competition in GDR's history (Cup Winners' Cup 1974) is giving his debut.

[malemute kid]

On 08/04/2020 at 08:11, Irn Rvd said:

oh my word lol. Let us know how you get on!!!

Bust the net did a video on recreating Marco Biesla tactics yesterday on youtube but I cant seem to find it now. The video shows how you can press really high while using specific man marking instructions. Very interesting. I tested against a few weak teams last night and their midfield could not make a pass.

It's on his patreon. I tried to subscribe for $3 to see this video alone, but I have so many issues with that platform, any time i try and create an account they get immediately disabled before I can confirm my email. 

Anyway, I imagine the biggest difference on a Bielsa press and German way when applied to FM is a wider mentality offensively, looking for underlaps from the WBs, and a man marking scheme as you've mentioned.  I'm attempting to apply the lessons in this thread to a Bielsa-Leeds save, but it's tough. There's not much space to play into in the Championship!

[Pavi]

Take a bow @AceAvenger. The OG and the whole thread are excellent quality and food for thoughts!

I have been implementing a similar philosophy and tactical approach in my current save with Mainz. Have been using a 442 and a 4411 during my three seasons in charge so far. But thanks to tweaks inspired by your tactic, this year (3rd season) we managed to be consistent and grabbed a UCL spot.

As you, I also take advantage of relegated teams or the AI not granting playing time to young talent who becomes available, so my squad is young but definitely talented. This is my main 442, some slight modification to yours, but I really have to thank you for the inputs and the insight. I have also started to take much more attention to certain attributes when recruiting and am excited to use this approach for the following seasons.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Pavi

[sven78]

First of all, excellent read.

I have rediscovered FM after many, many years not playing the game. I started one with Peterborough and in my 4th season I am in the Premier League. I am intrigued by this because Liverpool are simply ridiculous in it, the football they play is quite incredible. I played them in my 3rd season in the FA Cup, somehow got a 3-3 draw at home but clearly p*ssed them off as they murdered me 6-0 in the replay.I have now played them twice in the Premier League and watching them is crazy, its so one-sided no matter what I do, they just swarm me....in the 2 games in the league I am 0-11 on aggregate.

I wondered if anyone had tried to take that philosophy and try and form a tactic within FM.

The thread above is excellent, not overly complicated which certainly helps people like myself who have only a basic understanding of the mechanics. My Prem season has been so poor, I have nothing to lose. Formation/tactic has hit a wall and a combination of purchasing too many players in the summer so pretty much casting aside all the journeyman who got me there, alongside my board going over me and cashing in on some big money bids for my better players has left me half way through the season just getting battered of everyone, morale is through the floor so am thinking of a total rebuild. Got 4 months left in Prem to test and tweak then a summer to re-adjust the squad for another run at the Championship.

I really like the feel of this and the various stories through the thread of people bringing the german teams up are superb. Its what I always used to try and do in FM, never liek being the big clubs.

I agree the level of german talent is crazy. I actually got Lukas Mai on loan in my promotion season, for some reason they just didn't want him so managed to turn it permanent in the January for £1.5m...absolute steal. The kid is excellent. I also have Josh Vagnoman, another crazy talented player. Have 5 on my watch list but bidding for some which are 17 or 18 and negotiated prices are £100m+ ??? not be getting those.

[DocSnyder]

Third year - we're still rocking and there are still two players from the beginning in the third league in our starting eleven - the "double 6", Preißinger and Rother.

[Pavi]

Not bad, first ever Mainz victories in the UCL!

Edited April 18, 2020 by Pavi

[Adonalsium]

Excellent guide! I like the concept of gegenpressing, but since it's hopelessly broken in FM19 and FM20 and basically breaks the game in how much of an exploit it is, I find it really hard to enjoy using it because it always feels a little bit like cheating.

[vogado86]

On 15/03/2020 at 08:25, AceAvenger said:

"Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win."

Bringing Germany into a New Millennium

Gegenpressing, the buzzword of European football tactics in the 2010s. While it seemed a like tactical revolution when Borussia Dortmund stormed their way to their first two Bundesliga in nine years, following bouts with insolvency, the genealogy of this seemingly fresh new way of playing can be traced back to the 70s and 80s. Managers like Rinus Michels and, more importantly to this story, Arrigo Sacchi and Valeriy Lobanovskyi, sent their teams out to press. German clubs at this time were playing a very different way however, three at the back with strict man-marking and a sweeper, standing off the opposition.

At the turn of the millennium, Germany were still playing with this style. While it was successful at 1990 World Cup and the 1996 EUROs, Germany crashed out of both following EUROs at the group stage and only got to the 2002 World Cup final on an overreliance on the three Ks, Kahn, Kampf and Kopfball (Kahn, fight and headers). There needed to be a change. 

Back on the home front, things were beginning to change. A young Ralf Rangnick appeared on an episode of Das aktuelle Sportstudio in 1998, spreading a new doctrine of zonal marking with pressing and a flat back four. The leaders of German football thought it was heresy though. Franz Beckenbauer responded to the notion that tactics were important by saying "All this talk about the system is nonsense. Other players can do more with the ball, ours cannot. Four at the back, with zonal marking or a sweeper, it doesn't matter."

But a movement was happening. The aforementioned Rangnick has his eyes opened while during his stint as player/manager of Viktoria Backnang in 1984; Backnang played a friendly against Lobanovskyi's Dynamo Kiev and Rangnick was convinced that Dynamo had an extra play on the field due to their intensive press and supreme fitness. Another trailblazer was Wolfgang Frank, the journeyman coach was obsessed with Sacchi’s style of play.

A certain Jurgen Klopp recounts his time with Frank as a player at Mainz. “We watched very boring videos, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Pablo Maldini, Franco Baresi and Demetrio Albertini. We used to think if the other players were better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible; you can beat better teams by using tactics.”  

Frank spent two separate stints at Mainz, after he left for a second time, Klopp was asked to take the helm of the club following a slew of unsuccessful managers. He spent seven successful years at Mainz, implementing the style he was taught by Frank, and when Dortmund came calling after they finished 13^th in the league, Klopp joined them. The rest, as they say, is history.

What is Gegenpressing?

I have led you on far enough with my failed attempt of being a sports writer. If you have no taste and enjoyed my dribble then I wholly recommend you read Rafa Honigstein’s book Das Reboot and Michael Cox’s book Zonal Marking: The Making of Modern European Football. I’ve basically plagiarised them anyway.

So, what is gegenpressing? Well the translation to English is counter-pressing. As for what that means, I’m going to use the words of René Marić, the tactics-blogger-cum- Mönchengladbach-assistant coach.

Many coaches tend to view the game of football as having four phases:

1. Attack
2. Defence
3. Transition from defence to attack
4. Transition from attack to defence

The core essence of gegenpressing is that last phase, in the transition from defence to attack. The focus there is to press the ball carrier as soon as the ball is lost, force a turn over and attack, instead of regrouping.

But why do this, why go to all this effort? Well, it is because it is the most opportune moment to win the ball back. The player who just won the ball might not have complete control of it, nor does he have a full picture of where his team-mates are.

Vertikalspiel; the Difference Between Klopp and Guardiola

Now, I know what you might be thinking, Guardiola has a great emphasis on pressing too, especially when he’s just lost the ball. But the difference in play style between a team managed by Guardiola and one managed by Klopp is verticality. Guardiola has his famous ’15-pass rule’, were he requires that number of passes to correctly orient his players in their positional play; Klopp emphasized vertical passes, ensuring the ball moved upfield as quickly as possible after the ball was won.

The Germans have a word for this style of play with the ball, vertikalspiel, literally vertical game. Klopp has gone on record saying he’s not a fan of the slow build-up typical of Guardiola’s teams. “Barcelona’s team of the last four years with their serenity… sorry, that’s not enough for me. If Barcelona’s team of the last four years has been the first one that I was play when I was four, I would have played tennis instead.”

There are also differences on how they both pursue the counter-press. Klopp wants his players in the general vicinity of the ball to press the ball carrier in unison, leaving the other players free but suffocating the man with the ball. Guardiola sets his players out to cut out the passing lanes when they lose the ball.

So how do we translate that to Football Manager? Well that’s easy, just use the preset.

Only joking, I will elaborate in the next post.

Auf wiedersehen!

References:

• Das Reboot: How German Football Reinvented Itself and Conquered the World By Raphael Honigstein 

• Zonal Marking: The Making of Modern European Football by Michael Cox

• Counter- or Gegenpressing by René Marić on Spielverlagerung.com

Hello! I'm a Gegenpress fan! I'm gonna start a save with my love team Benfica. 
I had read your post and I'm gonna play on a 4-1-41 with your TI and two PI in the right and left-winger.

[vogado86]

This is my 4-1-4-1 Gegenpress, any modification on the tactic?

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by vogado86
Wrong screenshot

[Djuicer]

15 minutes ago, vogado86 said:

This is my 4-1-4-1 Gegenpress, any modification on the tactic?

 

Overlapping full backs is not something you want for gegenpressing imo.

EDIT: Talking about the TI.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Djuicer

[vogado86]

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Overlapping full backs is not something you want for gegenpressing imo.

EDIT: Talking about the TI.

What you suggest?

[Djuicer]

2 hours ago, vogado86 said:

What you suggest?

Remove the overlap right/left TI. You dont want players holding on to the ball, potentially stalling the attack.

 

EDIT: Its a trade off though. Removing it decreases compactness down the flanks. Which you want for the pressing game.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Djuicer

[Overmars]

On 18/04/2020 at 04:37, Adonalsium said:

Excellent guide! I like the concept of gegenpressing, but since it's hopelessly broken in FM19 and FM20 and basically breaks the game in how much of an exploit it is, I find it really hard to enjoy using it because it always feels a little bit like cheating.

Same for me. The "Positive" option OP posted is excellent. It keeps things tight even against better clubs. The problem is that this shouldn't work so well in every situation, and its effectiveness makes other tactical options (ex. sitting back and countering or slow possession) seem comparatively ineffective. Oh, and the other problem is that using this for entire matches should crush most sides who do not possess the elite fitness or work ethic that real life Liverpool players possess.

And yet I can't stop using it because I like winning.

[smithy20]

@AceAvenger  Is there any PI you like ti implement and use if any?

[Justified]

First time I've actually read through the thread. Really enjoyed it as I like pressing tactics too. I particularly liked the training post as it's very similar to what I do but I'm a little more rigid. Basically my Mondays + Tuesday always look the same as they're my basic principles, mental and tactics days and I do like to have a core and routine on those days. Wednesday is defending day so Trans-Press and Defending Engaged are always selected but the ES in the evening can vary depending on what I think I need to focus on, whether it's teamwork, set-peices etc etc. Thursday and Friday is where the magic is which is all about the upcoming match. Am I going more possession focused? Maybe I'll add in PooD and Ball Retention training. More attacking? Lets give our FB's a boost and train overlaps and chance conversion. I think by "default" I've got PooD, Att Movement and Chance Creation on those 2 days. During internationals, again, core principles at the beginning and then Physical Training on Thu + Fri (I even chuck in Community Outreach on the Sunday as it's the Lord's day).

So I don't go quite as far as developing loads of schedules, I just tweak the last two days on the "default" one depending on what I feel like would be good for that week. Again it stems down to the youth's as well. The principles (The DNA) on Mon + Tue, defending on Wed and then variety on Thu + Fri. That way I get a nice red thread going through the whole team. I agree with the Transition-Press training and also have it twice a week (Mon + Wed) as the attributes it trains is just so good and lends itself perfectly to high counter pressing. I actually don't like the Defend from the Front training though. I like the idea but the attributes it trains is not as good as the Trans-Press ones.

KUTGW on the thread though!

[HanziZoloman]

1 hour ago, Justified said:

First time I've actually read through the thread. Really enjoyed it as I like pressing tactics too. I particularly liked the training post as it's very similar to what I do but I'm a little more rigid. Basically my Mondays + Tuesday always look the same as they're my basic principles, mental and tactics days and I do like to have a core and routine on those days. Wednesday is defending day so Trans-Press and Defending Engaged are always selected but the ES in the evening can vary depending on what I think I need to focus on, whether it's teamwork, set-peices etc etc. Thursday and Friday is where the magic is which is all about the upcoming match. Am I going more possession focused? Maybe I'll add in PooD and Ball Retention training. More attacking? Lets give our FB's a boost and train overlaps and chance conversion. I think by "default" I've got PooD, Att Movement and Chance Creation on those 2 days. During internationals, again, core principles at the beginning and then Physical Training on Thu + Fri (I even chuck in Community Outreach on the Sunday as it's the Lord's day).

So I don't go quite as far as developing loads of schedules, I just tweak the last two days on the "default" one depending on what I feel like would be good for that week. Again it stems down to the youth's as well. The principles (The DNA) on Mon + Tue, defending on Wed and then variety on Thu + Fri. That way I get a nice red thread going through the whole team. I agree with the Transition-Press training and also have it twice a week (Mon + Wed) as the attributes it trains is just so good and lends itself perfectly to high counter pressing. I actually don't like the Defend from the Front training though. I like the idea but the attributes it trains is not as good as the Trans-Press ones.

KUTGW on the thread though!

Nice read man! A screenshot would be nice. As I am struggling with training a little. Do you also develop the players attributes well and as in another thread here is a nice discussion about it, do you train player roles or focus training?

[Justified]

Ok I'll try and explain without derailing the thread too much so let's keep it on point about a Gegenpressing Training. Firstly, what you must understand is I enjoy setting out training as a complement to my tactic rather then trying to squeeze out loads of green arrows. That's just because I feel a sense of realism that if I'm playing a high pressing counter press game then I need to train in a certain way as well. Below is a screen of what I meant earlier.

So here you can see an example of what I mean by a "default" schedule for a Gegenpressing philosophy. Now these are my opinions and there are plenty of ways to play this game but I like to make it simple this way. 

So as you can see Monday (the dreaded day that everyone loves) starts off with a Press (I am so nice ) and then two tactical training's. It's actually quite a low key day, players come in, works on transitions and tactics and then go home. Easy Monday! Also bare in mind here that some players might still be in the 80's in regards to their fitness so they might not be training as intensively as other players so this is almost treated as another recovery day as it's so low key. Apart from those players who have above 90 fitness who'll work harder (if you've set this up in the rest screen to double the intensity for over 90's). But yeah, first day is part of the DNA as it's all Teamwork based (all three train Teamwork) and also work on the one of the basics of Counter-Pressing. Now, for example, if you were possession orientated you might have Ball Retention as part of your DNA and would have the players all do Rondo's when they come into training (a la Pep) so you'd replace Press with that.

Then we role on to Tuesday which is still part of our Gegenpress DNA. Here we have Ball Distribution (again more Teamwork training) and Attacking Direct (breaking the Teamwork cycle, Boo!). So Ball Distribution to me means Tactical Rondo's which is Rondo's with a twist where you have 3 units doing different things throughout the Rondo. It's different from a normal Rondo because there is more running with the ball, passing coordination etc etc. Attacking Direct training speaks for itself as your going to want to play vertically. Again if working the ball into the box is your thing then maybe you should go Patient. Or you're going with crossing so go with Wing Play etc. But now at the end of day two we've had two days of quite easy training but part of our DNA.

Wednesday roles on and we're into Defending. Now by this time players should be getting into the 90's that played a match at the weekend so you'll get maximum out of them the next 2 days. Here I've got Defending Engaged and again Transition-Press. There is an argument that you could actually just have a general defend training and that would cover all players (barring GK's) which is an option if you have a tough game coming up and you get the added bonus you get teamwork trained again. However I usually go with those two. ES schedule default is Teamwork but this is super flexible. I just like Teamwork as again it trains Teamwork but you also get a boost in Pressing as a match prep. But like I said earlier, this could be a set-piece training or an extra defence training, team bonding etc. 

And then we role onto Thursday. So here is where you plan whatever you want as the players would've trained the DNA schedules already so everything else is attribute jumping schedules. Maybe you have a weak opponent coming up? Attack Overlap + Chance Conversion. Maybe you want to get better with the ball? PooD + Chance Creation. Maybe you want to boost some physical's. Maybe more defence training? Add Ground + Aerial Defence. So many ways you could go down here but it ultimately is up to what you want to train.

Edit: Forgot to say about Goalkeeping training, I like to keep this fairly flexible as well. If I'm training the team on Possession training then maybe I want to train him on Distribution as well to keep in line. Or if training physical's he could do One-on-Ones as that includes running. Mostly I keep it on Shot-Stopping but can be handy to chuck in Handling in there from time to time to mix things up.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Justified

[retrodude09]

Excellent post @Justified on how you go about setting up your training based on Gegenpressing. I'm curious as to how you adapt your schedule when you have 2 games per week?