Defensive positioning with 3 at the back

[whyidie]

So I play risky football. Used to conceding many goals initially as my team learn tactics. So fact I can occasionally concede 3 goals to a lesser team is not a concern. Conceding 5 or more to a superior team will happen.

What I'm trying to figure out is how to prevent a particular type of goal being scored. Usually when I bleed this tactic in I'll give up these types of goals throughout the first half of the season. There will be quite a few ugly games. But eventually the 3 CBs figure it out and these types of goals go away. This year though I can't seem to get rid of the poor spacing by my back three. Keeps cropping its head up periodically. I may just have the wrong players (current theory is my positioning and teamwork are too low though they're all at 14/15 in those categories. 

Image attached, essentially all the opposition does it switch it from one wing to the other and because my CBs are so poorly positioned its an easy goal.

My expectation is that the two off ball CBs would be shifted more toward the right side the pitch instead of overplaying the ball side. They seem to fall into this mental space where all three of them will drift too far to the ball side and completely forget the weakside leaving us open to an easy switch. 

So question is, are there any specific roles/instructions that will encourage my CBs to maintain their spacing ? 

[Neotropolis]

@whyidie you're better off asking in the Tactics forum (link below) as that has the people who are in the know about this king of thing.

https://community.sigames.com/forum/19-tactics-training-strategies-discussion/

[whyidie]

Ack! Thought thats where I was! The irony of asking how to help players get positional awareness when I have none myself!

 

[FrazT]

I will move this for you

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, whyidie said:

So I play risky football. Used to conceding many goals initially as my team learn tactics. So fact I can occasionally concede 3 goals to a lesser team is not a concern. Conceding 5 or more to a superior team will happen.

What I'm trying to figure out is how to prevent a particular type of goal being scored. Usually when I bleed this tactic in I'll give up these types of goals throughout the first half of the season. There will be quite a few ugly games. But eventually the 3 CBs figure it out and these types of goals go away. This year though I can't seem to get rid of the poor spacing by my back three. Keeps cropping its head up periodically. I may just have the wrong players (current theory is my positioning and teamwork are too low though they're all at 14/15 in those categories. 

Image attached, essentially all the opposition does it switch it from one wing to the other and because my CBs are so poorly positioned its an easy goal.

My expectation is that the two off ball CBs would be shifted more toward the right side the pitch instead of overplaying the ball side. They seem to fall into this mental space where all three of them will drift too far to the ball side and completely forget the weakside leaving us open to an easy switch. 

So question is, are there any specific roles/instructions that will encourage my CBs to maintain their spacing ? 

Extremely difficult (virtually impossible) to offer you any meaningful advice unless you post a screenshot of your tactic. Because nothing works in isolation. Defending is not just about defenders and their roles. Likewise, attacking is not just about "attackers" and their roles. The same principle applies to instructions, as well. Therefore, we really need to see that screenshot of your tactic as a whole 

[whyidie]

First screenshot is the tactic that doesn't work. Second screenshot I have not had a meltdown for awhile, but still not ready to say its sorted as I don't have enough games in with the changes. 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by whyidie

[Experienced Defender]

48 minutes ago, whyidie said:

Okay. I am not going to comment on the first tactic, simply because I never use asymmetric formations and hence do not feel competent to give advice on them.

When it comes to the 2nd tactic, the problems are obvious IMHO:

- totally unbalanced setup of roles and duties (the right side is virtually completely unprotected)

- needlessly aggressive defensive instructions, further compounded by a (very) high team mentality (attacking) and an extremely top-heavy formation

- even your in-possession instructions are generally such that they can lead to needlessly losing the ball and thus allowing the opposition to launch quick (and easy) counter-attacks against your already highly vulnerable defense.

And btw, the above remarks were just those pertaining to your defensive risks and vulnerabilities. But the attacking side is no better.

I am hesitating to propose potential changes, simply because there is so much that should be changed in this tactic.

[whyidie]

Quote

- totally unbalanced setup of roles and duties (the right side is virtually completely unprotected)

Relative to the left I thought they were equally bad in terms of protection. 

Quote

- needlessly aggressive defensive instructions, further compounded by a (very) high team mentality (attacking) and an extremely top-heavy formation

I do want to score goals. This is my concede 2 get 3 formation. So I do want to stay top heavy but interested in modifying stated aggressive defensive functions. 

Quote

- even your in-possession instructions are generally such that they can lead to needlessly losing the ball and thus allowing the opposition to launch quick (and easy) counter-attacks against your already highly vulnerable defense.

Your projections are accurate. This happens quite a bit. It is my teams main way of conceding, which I'm 100% ok with. What I'm trying to correct is spacing between my 3 CBs. They all seem to shift towards the ball more than I want them to leaving the weak side incredibly open to an accurate cross. 

Quote

And btw, the above remarks were just those pertaining to your defensive risks and vulnerabilities. But the attacking side is no better.

Feast or famine there as well, but I'm so far happy with results. Used a variant of this formation and tactic to win CL and Ligue 1. I am finding the quality of the top half in the PL to be much less forgiving. Which is again fine. I'm less concerned with the number of goals scored and more concerned with how they are being scored. If I can get my CBs to play more zonal marking I'd be a much happier manager as I could shift focus to the other areas needing refining. 

 

 

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, whyidie said:

What I'm trying to correct is spacing between my 3 CBs. They all seem to shift towards the ball more than I want them to leaving the weak side incredibly open to an accurate cross

You use extremely urgent pressing, so it's no surprise that they behave that way. And on the attacking mentality, that extreme pressing urgency is even more extreme. Plus the tight marking, which makes absolutely no sense in this top-heavy formation. 

 

1 hour ago, whyidie said:

Feast or famine there as well, but I'm so far happy with results

If so, then great. Keep it up!

[Guest]

AML / ML makes party with your right flank.

3 CD with Defend Duty is better.

But playing out defence with CD is little risky.

[whyidie]

Quote

You use extremely urgent pressing, so it's no surprise that they behave that way. And on the attacking mentality, that extreme pressing urgency is even more extreme. Plus the tight marking, which makes absolutely no sense in this top-heavy formation. 

I was hoping these tactics would encourage my wings to come back on defense in case the opposition doesn't go for the quick shot. In past iterations I found I could have the attackers pressing intensely while the CBs either snuffed out the quick counter or dealt with action in the box on slow buildup. Maybe I'm playing too low a defensive line and allowing the counter attackers too much time and space on the initial transition.  Will remove tighter marking, make sure CB pressing is least urgent I can find, and push line up a bit. 

Quote

AML / ML makes party with your right flank.

Its interesting to see when they figure it out because its non-stop attacking the weakness. In PSG game (first on list) I change to this tactic in second half to try to overcome 0-2 deficit. Big party. They score 5 in second half and I leave stadium in laundry cart.  

Last game on this list I decide my team is familiar enough with tactic we can use it away against big teams. Napoli scored 6 in first half and I leave stadium through sewers. 

Big teams know right away the weakness and go for it. Unpredictable is when little teams exploit it. At the moment it feels like my defender just forgets everything he has done well in past games. Which wouldn't be so bad if it was just a 1 or two goal loss. Problem is the AI will smartly keep exploiting the defender who has lost his head over and over again. Maybe I take CB with me next time I have to leave through sewers.