Tactical advice

[GianniM]

After a few seasons of a bit more direct football after being promoted, and then a transition phase towards a more technically proficient style, I think after the upcoming transfer window my team will be ready for the last phase: dominating games in every way.

I want them to drive the opponents mad with swift transitions from the back to the front, while keeping control of the ball. So I need them to pass the ball around quickly, preferably with many short passes to finally have this one killer ball as the assist. 

Therefore they need to operate close to each other, so a higher LOD, and a standard LOE. Not sure if this would work defensively though, as we might let the opposition come too close to our high LOD? Also my defenders are not slow, but not the fastest either (pace and acceleration 13-15).

 

For a few players I added PI's:

RB: Cross less often, cut inside with ball, sit narrower --> I want him to bring the ball to the playmaker, while the AMR provides width. Perhaps there's no need for the 'cut inside' while he already sits narrower?
LB: Run wide with ball, Stay wider --> He'll need to provide width to the attack, when the AML cuts inside

DM: Close down less --> He'll need to stay behind at all times, filling the gap the DL leaves

AP: More direct passes, get further forward --> I want him to provide as many creative passes as possible, so more direct passing should compensate for the shorter passing TI. Or would this be overkill? I already have TI be more expressive, AP has TI take more risk, Alena has player trait tries killer balls often. Get further forward because I want him to be close to the AMC position in attack. 

AML: Sit narrower --> Supporting the attack through the centre, width is provided by LB.

 

Feedback is highly appreciated. 

[Justified]

Personally I've never liked "Extreme" options. Like Extremely high tempo. Feels like you might give up possession a bit too much with a higher mentality and WBIB, depending on your players of course. I'm not quite sure what you want to achieve in this tactic though. Winger is on attack so who is he crossing to? The CF "might" be in the box due to his free role instruction, the AP on attack "might" be in the box due to his higher mentality and higher team mentality but he might also might be closer to the ball player due to him being a playmaker. I think there is too many "if's" in this system without having a clear plan.

If you're asking your RB to almost play like a IWB, why don't you just select that role? You've asked your LB to be wider but you have wider TI, so is that really needed? are you isolating him by almost being on the touchline?

I don't know your players at all so it's challenging to recommend anything without knowing your team or players.

[GianniM]

Yeah was in doubt about the extremely high tempo as well, but have tried it before and it worked at that moment. I'll evaluate how it goes and perhaps change it back to higher tempo. 

I've had the winger on attack many times last season and he scored 17 and 22 assists, so I don't think that will be an issue. 

Fair point about the RB. Will try playing him as an IWB.  

LB I've had it this way last season and it worked quite well, he's moving towards the backline providing an outlet for when the AML struggles to get past his defender.

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, GianniM said:

Definitely not my cup of tea, but it does not mean it cannot work. Try it out and see what happens. If it works - stick with it. If not - report back for some advice 

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Justified said:

Personally I've never liked "Extreme" options. Like Extremely high tempo

Me neither (especially under high team mentalities) 

[GianniM]

On 07/04/2020 at 13:06, Justified said:

I don't know your players at all so it's challenging to recommend anything without knowing your team or players.

Knock yourself out if you really want to do that

Meanwhile Martin and Pombo have been replaced by Raya and Vargas

[GianniM]

Wow, just now seeing they expect to win the Champions League 

[Justified]

Hmm.. I'd be tempted to try a few things. You have a slight issue with work rate though in central midfield but keeping the right back a bit more conservative, like you already do might help. I would probably try having an attacking role with the striker with the Winger on a support role to help out defensively but also get early crosses into the box rather then driving to the byline.. Central midfield feels problematic but would probably switch Alena to the left, DLP role on support and Henrique on a more offensive role. I would look into getting Henrique to unlearn the getting forward PPM if possible as he could be a handy little pivot if he didn't have that PPM.

[GianniM]

Thanks. Don't understand though how you want Henrique in a more offensive role but don't want him to get forward? 

And surely between Alena and Henrique I think Henrique is the most capable of a supportive role, when comparing their defensive skills.

Edited April 8, 2020 by GianniM

[GianniM]

This guy will help upping the work rate though when Carvalho retires. He played the B team and cup games last season and will now be his stand-in. 

If only his composure and anticipation would improve though...

[Experienced Defender]

I've carefully analyzed all your players (starting 11) from the screenshots and I think I know how I would fit them into a well-balanced tactical system 

[Justified]

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

Thanks. Don't understand though how you want Henrique in a more offensive role but don't want him to get forward? 

And surely between Alena and Henrique I think Henrique is the most capable of a supportive role, when comparing their defensive skills.

I meant for the future. The offensive role is only temporary because he has "Gets Further Forward" so whatever supporting role you put him in, he's going to bomb forward.

[GianniM]

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I've carefully analyzed all your players (starting 11) from the screenshots and I think I know how I would fit them into a well-balanced tactical system 

Okay... Please share 

[GianniM]

7 hours ago, Justified said:

I meant for the future. The offensive role is only temporary because he has "Gets Further Forward" so whatever supporting role you put him in, he's going to bomb forward.

So when he unlearns that, Henrique as a DLP perhaps and Alena as a Mezzala? 

Or what exactly you mean by pivot? 

And actually that striker on support is doing quite some defensive work as well, tracking back into his own half, sometimes recovering the ball and helping out in the build up. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by GianniM

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, Justified said:

The offensive role is only temporary because he has "Gets Further Forward" so whatever supporting role you put him in, he's going to bomb forward

But less so than on attack duty. 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, GianniM said:

Okay... Please share 

So speaking of a basic tactic (not plug'n'play), this is how I would set it up with these 11 guys from the screenshots:

DLFat

IWsu                             Wat

CAR    APsu

DMde

FBat   CDde  CDde   FBsu

SKsu

CAR - Henrique

APsu - Alena

My team instructions would be a lot more basic and simple than yours:

Mentality - Positive or Balanced (would experiment with both)

In possession - shorter passing, work ball into box and be more expressive

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL and offside trap

In terms of player instructions, Milanovic would be told to dribble less and Alena to dribble more.

And that's basically it. 

For tough matches (against stronger and especially top teams), I would make just a couple of tweaks to make the tactic a bit more counter-attacking, defensively tighter and less risky.

[GianniM]

So if I understand the role correctly, a Carrilero is somewhere in between a BBM and a playmaker? But wider at the same time. So you're trying to create a bit of an overload on the left, creating space for the winger to finish it off? Never used this role so not sure how it behaves exactly. I guess we still don't want him to get further forward in that case? Teach him to come deep to get ball? Unlearn that trait from Vargas? 

What makes you prefer a DLFat over a CFs? Is he staying more in the centre? 

Is there a big difference in APs with dribble more vs APa? 

I still want quick transitions though so I'm keeping the positive mentality, higher tempo and counter. I don't want 15 straight passes between the defenders just to have possession. 

Oh and it's FM19, I don't have the IW role. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by GianniM

[GianniM]

So the board gave me a big increase on transfer budget... Thinking I may go for this guy  if he wants it too, seems to be in doubt. I know Vignato is not the weakest point of my line up but he really impressed me when he was playing against me in the Champions League. Almost knocked me out single-handedly. 

What do you think @Experienced Defender? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

So if I understand the role correctly, a Carrilero is somewhere in between a BBM and a playmaker? 

Carrilero is somewhere between a BBM and a holding midfielder role in terms of movement and positional discipline. I call that type of role a "covering midfielder". 

 

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

But wider at the same time

Yes, he tends to operate slightly wider, but not in the manner of winger or wing-back/fullback. He is still primarily a central player. However, his tendency to move a bit wider along with his better positional discipline compared to roles like BBM or mezzala (roaming runners) makes him a good choice when you need someone to provide defensive cover for an attack-minded FB or WB. But of course, you always have to look at player attributes to make sure that a player can play the role properly. 

 

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

What makes you prefer a DLFat over a CFs? Is he staying more in the centre?

I do not prefer DLF over CF as a role. When I make tactical decisions, I always look at the system as a whole and also take into account the strengths and weakness of my players. Some roles work better in one type of tactical system, some work better in a different type of system. Likewise, some players are better suited to one type of roles, others are better suited to other types of roles. 

Using a lot of "exotic" or "fancy" roles does not make a tactic better. Because roles - just like all other elements of a tactic - do not work in isolation. 

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

Is there a big difference in APs with dribble more vs APa?

The "dribble more" PI has nothing to do with the AP's duty in this case. Here I specifically opted for the support duty for the sake of overall tactical balance and defensive solidity, taking also into account the style of play that would make sense for a team like this one (based on analysis of your players).

Then I added the "dribble more" instruction only because Alena looks like a player who would be able to use his technical and dribbling skills wisely as a way to unsettle opposition defenses. 

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

it's FM19, I don't have the IW role

Then go with IF. 

[Experienced Defender]

38 minutes ago, GianniM said:

 

38 minutes ago, GianniM said:

So the board gave me a big increase on transfer budget... Thinking I may go for this guy  if he wants it too, seems to be in doubt. I know Vignato is not the weakest point of my line up but he really impressed me when he was playing against me in the Champions League. Almost knocked me out single-handedly. 

What do you think @Experienced Defender? 

 

Chiesa is a great player and definitely better than Vignato (as far as I am concerned). 

[GianniM]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I do not prefer DLF over CF as a role.

I get that, I meant 'what makes you choose DLF in this tactic'? 

[GianniM]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Chiesa is a great player and definitely better than Vignato (as far as I am concerned). 

He sure is. Would you play him as a Raumdeuter in this tactic, or would that give insufficient defensive cover from Alena? 

[Experienced Defender]

34 minutes ago, GianniM said:

I meant 'what makes you choose DLF in this tactic'? 

1. The fact that DLF is a simpler and thus less demanding role than CF, while also being a creative type of striker role.

2. The fact that the rest of the setup is better suited to a more central and less roaming type of striker role.

2. The fact that Joveljic may struggle as a lone CF, because even though he is a good player, I am not sure that he is good enough to play as a CF in this particular type of system. 

36 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Would you play him as a Raumdeuter in this tactic, or would that give insufficient defensive cover from Alena?

No. In this tactic I would play him as a winger on attack in AMR or IF on support in AML. Because this particular tactic does not involve a RMD role at all. 

[GianniM]

Alright, thanks for your time

[GianniM]

On 09/04/2020 at 17:14, GianniM said:

OK, so played four matches in the pre-season now. This didn't really work for me. 

First match vs B team:

With Chiesa and Joveljic both on attack, and Alena on support dropping quite deep, they were a bit isolated at times and due to the shorter passing we weren't able to get the ball to them.

Another issue I encountered, related to the above, was that while we had a massive amount of possession (I think it was around 64% during halftime), we were just recycling the ball between the defenders. CB Inaki had as many touches and passes as playmaker Alena. I don't want to look at that, we've all been bored to death already by the Dutch national team here doing that for years. I know from previous games that the fans of Gijon don't like seeing that either. 

When we were able to get the ball forward, we did get some good chaces though, all close by the goal. They just didn't go in except for a set piece. We conceded only one shot but it went in immediately, I think it was due to the RB stepping out late for offside. 

Second half I tried Alena on attack, Joveljic on support, to link midfield and attack better. It did work in part, we were playing higher up the field and Chiesa and Joveljic were more involved. Of course it leaves the right side more exposed. But still the CB had the most passes. 

Something that comes to my mind only now, perhaps I could have removed the counter TI which might keep Chiesa and Joveljic from running forward when we're in possession. But still this would take away the aspect of a quick transition which I would like to see in our play.  

We did create less though, but again conceded only one shot against. Again the winner came from a set piece. 

Second match away vs affiliate club Sparta Rotterdam. Let's hope Sporting can win some hearts in The Netherlands. Gave the tactic another try in the first half. This time, being Dutch, Sparta was the one with lots of useless passes in the back, thus lots of possession. When we had the ball, our play concentrated higher up the field. But again the issue with Joveljic and Chiesa being too advanced and not reached. 

Also shots were taken from a greater distance. Only one went in: AML Vargas left totally unmarked after a throw-in on the right, being the only player in the box except the goalkeeper.

Sparta were only able to produce two long shots off target, so defensively we're solid (vs smaller teams).

So second half I put Joveljic on support, and Alena on attack. More urgent pressing to keep them from recycling the ball in the back.

But most importantly, I also went for a slightly more direct approach. Standard passing directness instead of shorter, and wider play to tackle the long shots. 

As you can see, it worked. We won 5-0, and again conceded only two long shots in the second half. And I like what I see now. 

Next match vs Dortmund: Yes, less possession, but so much more effective. We won 2-0 but could've been more. Their shots were all from distance. 

Next match vs Braga. Lined up an entire reserves team, all except two within a range of 17-22 years of age. They were defending as an extremely narrow 9-men block, so I refrained to shorter passing. I also attacked extremely wide. Won only 3-0 because we couldn't finish our chances. 

 

So I think this is the tactic I'm going to use as a base for the coming season. 

The only issue here is, as already addressed by @Justified, Chiesa often being the most advanced player on the pitch, making a run for it and then having nobody to cross to. This is much less an issue with Vignato, probably because of his player traits making him behave more like a IF when running with the ball. And probably staying deeper as well due to the 'Arrives late'. 

[Justified]

I think now you've changed passing you can afford having Joveljic on attack, at least that is what I would do so Chiesa actually has someone to cross to 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Justified

[GianniM]

1 hour ago, Justified said:

I think now you've changed passing you can afford having Joveljic on attack, at least that is what I would do so Chiesa actually has someone to cross to 

Yeah, will see how that works out 

[GianniM]

So what attacking training should I be focussing on..? 

It's a bit of all three direct, wing and patient

[GianniM]

After reading @crusadertsar's topic, tried this guy as a right side IWBa 

 

2 assists, 1 goal, we won 6-0. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by GianniM

[GianniM]

So this has been my base tactic: 

We're performing quite well (1st in league, group winner in CL, just knocked out from the cup vs Barca when I played a bunch of youngsters). A really nice addition was the IWBa on the right, who's constantly finding himself unmarked in midfield and at the edge of the penalty area. I changed the DM to a HB for more defensive cover with both the wide defenders on attack duty. 

Chiesa hasn't disappointed so far, he's been out with a few injuries for a total of 7 weeks but still one of the most important players stats wise. 

The other newcomer Vargas had a more serious injury, only just recovered after being out for three months, but he was doing good as well before all that. 

Just two issues though:

1. Alena as a playmaker is our player with the most shots. Actually second overall in the league! Now some of these are free kicks, but most are just hopeless long range shots from open play (hence his very low on target %). I don't understand why because this shouldn't be his job as a playmaker. He has no player trait to shoot from distance, the Advanced Playmaker role even has hardcoded PI to shoot less often. So even with be more creative and take more risks (as PA) he shouldn't be shooting that often. How to prevent him from doing that? 

 

1. Varela as IWBa is taking a yellow almost every match he's playing! He does 'Argue with officials' but really every two matches?! He has good decisions, anticipation, positioning etc. and low aggression. So what would cause him to take so many bookings? 

Edited April 28, 2020 by GianniM

[GianniM]

On 28/04/2020 at 13:50, GianniM said:

Alena as a playmaker is our player with the most shots. Actually second overall in the league! Now some of these are free kicks, but most are just hopeless long range shots from open play (hence his very low on target %). I don't understand why because this shouldn't be his job as a playmaker. He has no player trait to shoot from distance, the Advanced Playmaker role even has hardcoded PI to shoot less often. So even with be more creative and take more risks (as PA) he shouldn't be shooting that often. How to prevent him from doing that? 

Any idea anyone? 

[Justified]

Usually when this happens it means that there is nothing else on. If you translate to RL terms I'm sure you've seen midfielders take a pop because there is no other options to do anything else. Have you tried Varela on a more wide role? Could be an option for another passing option for Alena instead of shooting.

[GianniM]

Well in most situations he actually has perfectly viable passing options. 

Look at the number 12:

This one he scores but again would've made more sense to give to number 8

Here you may have a point but still the DM number 14 was a good option

Left full back was in a good position here but I can forgive him for not seeing that. Having Varela wide would've helped here. 

 

[Justified]

All those screenshots tell me you have absolutely no width in the team. I think 8 and 12 are decent options but tbh they're not great because the defence is compact. If you had width you'd stretch that defence a lot more. Honestly, try the RB at WBsu and you'll stretch that defence a lot more. He can play it out wide, defence moves, the WB plays it back and instantly you've created gaps.

What you also have to understand with an APsu is that he is looking to sit in the hole and hit killer passes. As it stands you're making it very easy for the defence to sit compact with the only width on the left. On the right everyone is packing into the centre and you have absolutely no width on the right. On the left the IFsu, APsu and DLFsu are all looking for the same space in front of the defence.

[GianniM]

Well this is the result. Absolutely no penetration. Not a single shot from inside the box except one penalty. Alena is number 7.

[Justified]

Maybe the CARsu is the problem then. Never quite liked CAR's in 4123's. Try one match as a MEZsu and see if he can move the defence around a bit.

[Djuicer]

35 minutes ago, Justified said:

Maybe the CARsu is the problem then. Never quite liked CAR's in 4123's. Try one match as a MEZsu and see if he can move the defence around a bit.

I agree with this. The Carrilero is seldom effective in the 4-1-2-3. There is not really any job for him to do in that formation, already lots of bodys on the flanks and if not the rest of the midfield is overly aggresive there is nothing to cover there either.

 

I would maybe keep the IWBa and change the FBa to a WBs and then change the CAR too a more attacking running midfielder.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Djuicer

[GianniM]

On 01/05/2020 at 11:31, Justified said:

Maybe the CARsu is the problem then. Never quite liked CAR's in 4123's. Try one match as a MEZsu and see if he can move the defence around a bit.

Tried the MEZ but that confirmed what I had seen before: MEZ and IF are constantly in the exact same spot. Have a BBM now instead, actually like I had before this thread. 

And changed the RMD back to a winger in order to have a bit more width and at the same time have the advantages of the IWBa, really like him assisting the midfield and even being a threat in and around the box.

Chiesa still scores Raumdeuter-like goals while also providing width in other situations. A winger comes with crosses so I've changed the forward back to a CF. The DLF both on support and attack would just stop running when they were at the edge of the box so there'd be no one to cross to. Still unsure about the duty for the CF, support or attack? I still want to leave some room for Chiesa to score as well. 

 

On 01/05/2020 at 12:03, Djuicer said:

I would maybe keep the IWBa and change the FBa to a WBs and then change the CAR too a more attacking running midfielder.

Don't really want to change the FB, he's been an excelent creator lately, has found a real connection with Chiesa:

[Djuicer]

7 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Tried the MEZ but that confirmed what I had seen before: MEZ and IF are constantly in the exact same spot. Have a BBM now instead, actually like I had before this thread. 

And changed the RMD back to a winger in order to have a bit more width and at the same time have the advantages of the IWBa, really like him assisting the midfield and even being a threat in and around the box.

Chiesa still scores Raumdeuter-like goals while also providing width in other situations. A winger comes with crosses so I've changed the forward back to a CF. The DLF both on support and attack would just stop running when they were at the edge of the box so there'd be no one to cross to. Still unsure about the duty for the CF, support or attack? I still want to leave some room for Chiesa to score as well. 

 

Don't really want to change the FB, he's been an excelent creator lately, has found a real connection with Chiesa:

Yeah, keep that role! with the HB its probably enough players sitting back anyway.

[GianniM]

On 30/04/2020 at 15:05, Justified said:

 try the RB at WBsu and you'll stretch that defence a lot more.

Have tried this again in combination with Chiesa as a RMD yesterday after being with the back to the wall for 10 minutes in CL quarter finals away at Liverpool - 18% possession only in my own half. Together with a slightly more direct approach (Standard LOE, regroup, standard passing and tempo, pass into space).

Would've been completely hammered if I'd have kept going with the shorter passing IWB + winger thing as above but managed to win 0-4 after these changes. So cheers for that