Help recreating Lucian Favre's fluid counter 4-4-2 at Gladbach

[deejay10]

Hello everyone,

I recently returned to FM after a long hiatus due to the lockdown.

I'm looking to re-create Lucian Favre's fast, fluid short passing counter attacking system in FM19. I understand it the tactics creators for FM19 and FM20 are similar so maybe you can still help me?

Lucian Favre took over Gladbach in Feb 2011 when they were bottom with only 16 points and 7 points adrift of safety. They struggled but were able to stay up by beating Bochum in the relegation playoffs. The year after in 2011-12, Favre led the Foals to fourth place, securing a Champions League spot. The year after after that, in 12-13, they didn't qualify for the Europa League, struggling after they sold their best players such as Reus and finishing 8th. in 13-14 they recovered slightly after signing Brazilian shadow striker Raffael, finishing 6th. In 14-15, after adding the likes of Yann Sommer, Thorgan Hazard and Max Kruse, they finished 3rd.

Onto the tactics...

I shall spare you all the long-winded analysis, but you can find it here: 

http://www.just-football.com/2015/03/how-borussia-moenchengladbach-became-the-bundesliga-surprise-package/

https://www.deeplyingpodcast.co.uk/tactics/deep-lying-gegenpressing-gladbach/

Let's start with a list of key propensities of their playing style.

Formation

• Favre's Gladbach typically lined up in a 4-4-2 with two banks of four, and two strikers
• Their full-backs were not typical modern-day adventurous players who gets to the byline to cross. Rather, they favoured getting involved in the build-up play instead and link up especially well with their corresponding wide midfielder
• They typically played with a double pivot in central midfield, one ball winner and one deeper lying playmaker with good passing (before he moved to Arsenal this was Xhaka)
• Their wide midfielders had a lot of pace, and got forward to support or make runs beyond the strikers. When they had a wide playmaker type player (like Juan Arango or Thorgan Hazard) one wide midfielder would be less adventurous, while the other would play higher up
• Both wide midfielders sat narrow and attacked the half spaces, pressing fullbacks but also tracking them back
• They played with two withdrawn strikers who would drop off and press the midfield, providing a compact shape to cut off the opposition's passing lanes and forcing them to go wide

Defending

• The Foals were a counter attacking side, with a moderate defensive line absorbing pressure
• Generally they preferred to sit narrow and concede space on the flanks, where their full backs often sat deep with their central defenders
• They had their defensive midfielders sit together as a tight-knit pair while the wide midfielders positioned themselves in the higher half space to either press the opposition defensive midfielder or the full back.
• Unlike the aggressive pressing of German teams like Schmidt's Leverkusen and Klopp and Tuchel's Dortmund, Gladbach deployed a deeper form of gegenpressing. They typically looked to frustrate the opposition by absorbing pressure with good defensive positioning that attempts to channel the play out wide to the touch-line.
• Favre preferred his players to form a compact system rather than create holes in the team’s shape. Therefore, the only players tasked in counter pressing were the strikers, the wide midfielders and the full-back if found in that zone.

Attacking

• They played a high tempo short passing game, with lots of one twos and and roaming from position
• They looked to draw the opposition out of position before playing a through ball into space
• They had lots of runners from deep, particularly during counter attacks
• After winning the ball in their half they tended to launch a fast-paced counter attack looking at exploiting the flanks with a swift ball into the centre, using the pace of their fast wingers like Patrick Herrmann

Here's how the typical formation looked:

And here are a couple of videos that demonstrate their playing style:

 

As you can see they counter attacked with fast, short passing, playing one-twos until they could create the space for a through ball. They had lots of runners from deep streaming forward to attack the box. 

Translating this into FM

I've managed to re-create the tactic in older FMs (FM14, FM15) by using Counter-Rigid and Counter-Balanced. Formation was usually SK/D, WB/S, CD/D, CD/D, FB/S, WM/A, CM/D, DLP/S, WM/S, DF/S, DLF/S. 

But I'm struggling to re-create this for FM19. Here's my attempt with Hertha Berlin. 

Based on the above descriptions:

• Balanced mentality seems to match the description of Favre's Gladbach
• No pass into space as Gladbach typically only did this on counter attacks
• Defend narrower, tighter marking, more urgent pressing to emulate the limited form of Gegenpressing
• Counter, counter press and distribute to flanks to re-create the fast counters
• Wide midfielders have sit narrower, roam from position and get further forward
• Full backs with stay wider to provide width
• Centre mids with hold position
• Often add in play out from defence and more direct passing
• Sometimes move the left sided ST into AM-strata as AM/A

In matches though:

• The defence is mostly solid overall but can end up camped on the edge of the area pinned in by the opposition
• Really struggling to play out from defence into midfield against high pressing teams - resulting in CBs or GK clearing the ball to the opposition to invite more waves of attack
• Not winning the ball back as much in midfield - teams can play around the press
• The inability to beat the press means we don't generate that many counter attacks
• The tempo when not counter attacking seems slow, with not many one-twos. However adding 'higher tempo' can result in the team giving the ball away too much
• Against more defensive teams the team ends up passing it on the edge of the area, ending up with either a blocked cross from a full back/winger or a long shot
• We score most of our goals from crosses from the wingers

Can anyone who has created a similar tactic help me with this emulation?

[Jean0987654321]

A few editions back, I made my own interpretation of that tactic

 

 

The tactical creator is a bit different nowadays but I begin with some ideas from that

[coach vahid]

Hi...this is just a point of view. Not the solution.

Il y a 14 heures, deejay10 a dit :

Balanced mentality seems to match the description of Favre's Gladbach

You chose Counter Fluid...Why not. But why you change the mentality. Mentality affects everything. Try with the original mentality.

Il y a 15 heures, deejay10 a dit :

Defend narrower, tighter marking, more urgent pressing to emulate the limited form of Gegenpressing

If you defend narrow + tighter marking, your players risk to loose their positionning no? And Favre like the zonal marking. 

Il y a 15 heures, deejay10 a dit :

Really struggling to play out from defence into midfield against high pressing team

It's logical. In real life too its difficult for the team which is press. And in Bundesliga almost every team press.

I will keep play out defense but leave the GK choose the better solution.

Il y a 15 heures, deejay10 a dit :

• Not winning the ball back as much in midfield - teams can play around the press
• The inability to beat the press means we don't generate that many counter attacks
• The tempo when not counter attacking seems slow, with not many one-twos. However adding 'higher tempo' can result in the team giving the ball away too much

Try just the preset instructions. The Counter Fluid : - "looks to draw the opposition forward to leave them vulnerable on the break".

Lower LOE and lower DL means more space to attack.

Maybe i'm totally wrong.

[Experienced Defender]

18 hours ago, deejay10 said:

 

18 hours ago, deejay10 said:

Formation

• Favre's Gladbach typically lined up in a 4-4-2 with two banks of four, and two strikers
• Their full-backs were not typical modern-day adventurous players who gets to the byline to cross. Rather, they favoured getting involved in the build-up play instead and link up especially well with their corresponding wide midfielder
• They typically played with a double pivot in central midfield, one ball winner and one deeper lying playmaker with good passing (before he moved to Arsenal this was Xhaka)
• Their wide midfielders had a lot of pace, and got forward to support or make runs beyond the strikers. When they had a wide playmaker type player (like Juan Arango or Thorgan Hazard) one wide midfielder would be less adventurous, while the other would play higher up
• Both wide midfielders sat narrow and attacked the half spaces, pressing fullbacks but also tracking them back
• They played with two withdrawn strikers who would drop off and press the midfield, providing a compact shape to cut off the opposition's passing lanes and forcing them to go wide

Defending

• The Foals were a counter attacking side, with a moderate defensive line absorbing pressure
• Generally they preferred to sit narrow and concede space on the flanks, where their full backs often sat deep with their central defenders
• They had their defensive midfielders sit together as a tight-knit pair while the wide midfielders positioned themselves in the higher half space to either press the opposition defensive midfielder or the full back.
• Unlike the aggressive pressing of German teams like Schmidt's Leverkusen and Klopp and Tuchel's Dortmund, Gladbach deployed a deeper form of gegenpressing. They typically looked to frustrate the opposition by absorbing pressure with good defensive positioning that attempts to channel the play out wide to the touch-line.
• Favre preferred his players to form a compact system rather than create holes in the team’s shape. Therefore, the only players tasked in counter pressing were the strikers, the wide midfielders and the full-back if found in that zone.

Attacking

• They played a high tempo short passing game, with lots of one twos and and roaming from position
• They looked to draw the opposition out of position before playing a through ball into space
• They had lots of runners from deep, particularly during counter attacks
• After winning the ball in their half they tended to launch a fast-paced counter attack looking at exploiting the flanks with a swift ball into the centre, using the pace of their fast wingers like Patrick Herrmann

I am not familiar with Favre's Gladbach, but based on how you described their style, I would start with something like this:

F9   PFat

WMat    CMde   DLPsu    IWsu

WBsu   BPDde  CDde    WBsu

SKsu

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - shorter passing, slightly higher tempo, run at defence, focus play down both flanks, be more expressive and hit early crosses

In transition - counter and distribute to flanks

Out of possession - lower LOE, get stuck in and defend narrower

Player instructions - both strikers and wide midfielders - close down more

That would be my starting tactic. Then I would watch matches carefully and make small gradual tweaks as I see fit until I get what I want.

[deejay10]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I am not familiar with Favre's Gladbach, but based on how you described their style, I would start with something like this:

F9   PFat

WMat    CMde   DLPsu    IWsu

WBsu   BPDde  CDde    WBsu

SKsu

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - shorter passing, slightly higher tempo, run at defence, focus play down both flanks, be more expressive and hit early crosses

In transition - counter and distribute to flanks

Out of possession - lower LOE, get stuck in and defend narrower

Player instructions - both strikers and wide midfielders - close down more

That would be my starting tactic. Then I would watch matches carefully and make small gradual tweaks as I see fit until I get what I want.

Thanks this is really helpful.

Can I ask:

Why be more expressive? Is that to encourage roaming from positions and one twos? Favre's Gladbach were quite disciplined without the ball, holding to two banks of four. But in attack played with a lot of flair. 

How come no counter press? Gladbach did press, particularly when the ball went out wide, but only really in their own half.

Is there a risk that lower LOE invites too much pressure? Even with standard LOE I can end up camped in front of my box. 

[deejay10]

4 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Hi...this is just a point of view. Not the solution.

You chose Counter Fluid...Why not. But why you change the mentality. Mentality affects everything. Try with the original mentality.

If you defend narrow + tighter marking, your players risk to loose their positionning no? And Favre like the zonal marking. 

It's logical. In real life too its difficult for the team which is press. And in Bundesliga almost every team press.

I will keep play out defense but leave the GK choose the better solution.

Try just the preset instructions. The Counter Fluid : - "looks to draw the opposition forward to leave them vulnerable on the break".

Lower LOE and lower DL means more space to attack.

Maybe i'm totally wrong.

Thanks for contributing.

I'm worried that lower LOE and lower DL means we don't put enough pressure on the opposition in our half, and can end up camped in front of our area. Then if we do win the ball back there is nowhere to go but to clear the ball. 

[deejay10]

15 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

A few editions back, I made my own interpretation of that tactic

 

 

The tactical creator is a bit different nowadays but I begin with some ideas from that

Thanks your tactic was a big inspiration for my FM16 tactic. Although I struggled sometimes to get very fluid to work as well as flexible. 

[coach vahid]

il y a 37 minutes, deejay10 a dit :

Thanks for contributing.

I'm worried that lower LOE and lower DL means we don't put enough pressure on the opposition in our half, and can end up camped in front of our area. Then if we do win the ball back there is nowhere to go but to clear 

I was worried but in fact, with more urgent active, your players press once your LOE passed.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, deejay10 said:

Why be more expressive? Is that to encourage roaming from positions and one twos?

Yes, to encourage roaming from positions, especially as the setup has no naturally roaming roles.

When it comes to the one-twos, they are not directly related to being more expressive, but you can encourage them slightly by a certain combination of roles, duties and instructions. 

1 hour ago, deejay10 said:

Favre's Gladbach were quite disciplined without the ball, holding to two banks of four. But in attack played with a lot of flair

Well, that's exactly what the BME is about - it affects freedom of movement and creativity when you attack, especially in the final third. It can indirectly affect your defensive positioning though if too many of your players happen to be out of position the moment you lose the ball, but such situations usually happen when you have tactical overkill (using the BME instruction + a lot of roaming roles + high team mentality all at the same time). 

 

1 hour ago, deejay10 said:

How come no counter press? Gladbach did press, particularly when the ball went out wide, but only really in their own half

If they pressed only in their own half, then it definitely was not the counter-press. I added the close down more player instruction for the strikers and wide midfielders, precisely in order to help achieve the kind of pressing you described. 

 

1 hour ago, deejay10 said:

Is there a risk that lower LOE invites too much pressure? 

It can invite too much pressure when coupled with passive instructions such as less urgent pressing or/and stay on feet. A combo of lower DL and lower LOE could also be problematic in terms of inviting too much pressure. But here it's paired with the standard D-line to give you optimal compactness and the get stuck in to make your players a bit more aggressive once the opposition comes deeper into your half. Counter-attacking styles require a lower LOE because you need to draw the opponent onto you and then look to suddenly win the ball and launch a quick counter. 

Simply put - make yourself compact, draw them onto yourself and then engage them aggressively to win the ball and hit them quickly on the break 

NOTE: Keep in mind that the team mentality automatically affects all team instructions, both in and out of possession. 

1 hour ago, deejay10 said:

Even with standard LOE I can end up camped in front of my box

If an opponent is so much stronger than your team, you are likely going to end up squeezed into your own box even if you use a much higher LOE and much higher DL. Because telling the players to do something does not guarantee that they will really be able to do that. They may try their best, but if the opposition is too superior - that will be to little (if any) avail. 

[deejay10]

the tactic is now working a lot better with those tweaks. just beat frankfurt away 2-0 with both goals coming from rapid counter attacks. 

here's a screenshot: 

slight worry that we are more reliant on crossing and there are fewer through balls and runs from deep than a favre team. of course the next challenge is in away games against big teams