How can I get the best out of a typical 'number 10' advanced playmaker?

[Jack722]

It seems like 90% of the successful tactics I see and use on FM are a high pressing, possession based 4123, with a support striker dropping deep. I personally find this style of play really boring and would like to use a combination of a pure number 10 role, with a pure number 9 poacher/advanced forward role. But I have been having problems with this and I dont know the best way to do it.

Some teams in fm19 that I have tried this with are Arsenal and AC Milan, with Ozil - Aubameyang and Paqueta - Piatek repectively.

I think that my understanding of roles and duties are sound (although correct me if I am wrong). I am more confused about how to set up a style of play that suits this kind of partnership. On the one hand, a direct counter attacking style of play would normally allow the number 10 more space to operate in, as well as more space in behind for the striker to run into. The drawback of this is that you are asking a typically low workrate 'weak' sort of player, to spend lots of time without the ball and being part of the defending side. These no.10 players, even though they tend to be agile, aren't always the quickest, this goes against a good counter attacking philosphy. As well as this, a number 10 and a number 9 aren't necesarrily the bravest and strongest of players, meaning that a direct long ball will most likely be lost to the opposition centre backs.

The other typical style of play would be high pressing and short passing, This would allow your number 10 more time on the ball to influence the game. Originally i thought that this would be the best idea, but i've noticed that in this style, it seems to easy for the other team to just defend narrow and flood the 'golden zone' just outside the box, forcing the playmaker deep/wide. The other problem with this is that it seems too easy to mark the no.9 out of the game, as the player doesn't tend to drop deep to get the ball, and there isn't enough space to run in behind.

Below I'll post some examples of what i think are some good formations/roles for these players. 

Ideas behind these roles:

• WIdth on both sides to make it hard for the opposition to flood the middle
• AF pushes back the opposition dline to stop opposition CBs from closing down the golden zone
• AF should also be ready to fun in behind
• An IFa to give the oppositon centre backs 2 goal threats to worry about
• A defensively minded double pivot to allow the AP to mostly focus on attack
• A BPD to bring the ball out of defence and find the attacking players

 

Ideas behind these roles:

• Afa- same as above
• DLF and MEZ should look to to exploit the golden zone if the APa leaves his position while taking an oppositon DM with him
• Width on both sides for the same reason as above
• BPD for the same reason as above
• CMd and BWM to give the attacking players a solid base to work off

My question is this: what sort of instructions and mentality would be optimal for these sort of systems? If there are any articles about this then please link them here. Also if my roles aren't quite suitable then please let me know.

 

[MadOnion]

The number 10 role is an interesting one and hard to pull off sometimes, but when it works it almost becomes an obsession.

I found that the n10 needs time and space to operate properly, so the secret lies somewhere in between possession and counter attacking football. If you go attacking, you may want to slow down the tempo and play through the middle.

Watch games in comprehensive and try to understand his influence in the game (number of touches, key passes, etc).
I kept fine tuning until I was happy with his role (as well as everyone else surrounding him)

Meet my Playmaker - Tiago Dantas - The Advanced Playmaker on support

• Highly creative and intelligent.
• His work-rate and teamwork mean he isn't a lazy playmaker.
• I'd prefer his finishing to be higher but that's ok since I want him to create (still scored 8 in all competitions).

He broke the previous assist record by 13, which is massive, even by the Portuguese League's standards.

Also setting the standards when it comes to average rating (he broke his own record... twice)

The first advice I'd give is to look as his PPMs and maybe start on a support role. You may find that, even on support, he may arrive late in the opposite area and score the odd goal.
Also make sure others aren't stepping on his toes.

Good luck.

[Jack722]

16 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

The number 10 role is an interesting one and hard to pull off sometimes, but when it works it almost becomes an obsession.

I found that the n10 needs time and space to operate properly, so the secret lies somewhere in between possession and counter attacking football. If you go attacking, you may want to slow down the tempo and play through the middle.

Watch games in comprehensive and try to understand his influence in the game (number of touches, key passes, etc).
I kept fine tuning until I was happy with his role (as well as everyone else surrounding him)

Meet my Playmaker - Tiago Dantas - The Advanced Playmaker on support

• Highly creative and intelligent.
• His work-rate and teamwork mean he isn't a lazy playmaker.
• I'd prefer his finishing to be higher but that's ok since I want him to create (still scored 8 in all competitions).

He broke the previous assist record by 13, which is massive, even by the Portuguese League's standards.

Also setting the standards when it comes to average rating (he broke his own record... twice)

The first advice I'd give is to look as his PPMs and maybe start on a support role. You may find that, even on support, he may arrive late in the opposite area and score the odd goal.
Also make sure others aren't stepping on his toes.

Good luck.

Thanks for the reply, do you mind posting a picture of your tactic? and explaining the decisions you made?

[Juninho25]

I am desperately trying to get a ‘creative 10, goal scoring 9’ working too with very little success so will be avidly reading this thread for ideas....

[Britrock]

I've struggled to get AMCs working this year, they just seem totally ineffective. I think because most teams play with a DMC (or two) the AMC gets marked out of the game. I've taken to dropping my playmaker deeper - the Roaming Playmaker has become my favourite role this year, everyone I play in the role averages well over 7.

[Jack722]

2 minutes ago, Britrock said:

I've struggled to get AMCs working this year, they just seem totally ineffective. I think because most teams play with a DMC (or two) the AMC gets marked out of the game. I've taken to dropping my playmaker deeper - the Roaming Playmaker has become my favourite role this year, everyone I play in the role averages well over 7.

That's interesting, I used to think that it was a problem with the match engine, but now i don't think that's the case. In a recent save I was playing, an AI Arsenal had the top scorer in the league, aubamayang, and the top assister, Ozil. They were playing a 4231 with Ozil as CAM and Aubamayang as the striker - so I'm sure it's possible to make them effective

[Swills417]

I've somehow managed to get the number 10 "creator" and number 9 "goalscorer combination working in my save. Everything about my tactic and the stats suggest this should not work. Don't let the customer tika-taka  fool you. We have the lowest average possession in the league (41%). However, Schick finished as top goalscorer and Ozil top of the assist charts. 

 

 

I found the best way to get the position performing is to build the partnership between the AMC and ST. Take care of morale and pray for some good form. I think the nature of a number 10 and the history of the position is to trust the player. In games past, I would say play in fluid with minimal player instructions in a 1990s/2000s style management. Keep it basic, having a balance of attacking mentalities ahead and behind the playmaker.

Also this may sound obvious but play to players strengths. Schick is good in the air, so I set him to attack near post at corners and have Ozil delivering the ball into that zone every time. Usually results in a fair few assists a season or at least to chance creation stats. 

 If Ozil reconsiders his retirement, next season I will try him out as a 35 year old Enganche with plenty of runners around him. 

[davidbarros2]

2 horas atrás, MadOnion disse:

The number 10 role is an interesting one and hard to pull off sometimes, but when it works it almost becomes an obsession.

I found that the n10 needs time and space to operate properly, so the secret lies somewhere in between possession and counter attacking football. If you go attacking, you may want to slow down the tempo and play through the middle.

Watch games in comprehensive and try to understand his influence in the game (number of touches, key passes, etc).
I kept fine tuning until I was happy with his role (as well as everyone else surrounding him)

Meet my Playmaker - Tiago Dantas - The Advanced Playmaker on support

• Highly creative and intelligent.
• His work-rate and teamwork mean he isn't a lazy playmaker.
• I'd prefer his finishing to be higher but that's ok since I want him to create (still scored 8 in all competitions).

He broke the previous assist record by 13, which is massive, even by the Portuguese League's standards.

Also setting the standards when it comes to average rating (he broke his own record... twice)

The first advice I'd give is to look as his PPMs and maybe start on a support role. You may find that, even on support, he may arrive late in the opposite area and score the odd goal.
Also make sure others aren't stepping on his toes.

Good luck.

This is by far the best performance for a number 10 I've seen in this year edition! 

I'm not too skeptic, but I'm portuguese (and Porto lifelong fan) but roughly how many of his assists came from set pieces?

Cause in the domestic league in 2022 you should have a walk in the park with benfica (tho defenses might be packed so that number of assists is really amazing!) but in europe Tiago dantas seems not to be performing so well, assists wise...

If possible I would very much like to see what kind of tactic are you running, is it just 1 striker ahead or 2? Keep up the good work

[MadOnion]

The system

That was the system 2 seasons ago so things have changed since. The idea was for Dantas to patiently wait for either the W-A or the FB-A, before releasing a key pass to them.

It's no wonder that Dantas dominated the league in key passes and assists (though that was never the goal). I wanted him to be the "Maestro" so that's what the reason behind the setup (spacing and runners surrounding him).

He was on corners but I'm not sure how many of those generated assists.

Last season he bettered himself. Overall rating went from 7.67 to 7.73 and the overall number of assists from 22 to 24 although he assisted less in the league.

Have a look at this thread, particularly the last few pages.

Edited April 17, 2020 by MadOnion

[summatsupeer]

13 hours ago, Jack722 said:

My question is this: what sort of instructions and mentality would be optimal for these sort of systems? If there are any articles about this then please link them here. Also if my roles aren't quite suitable then please let me know.

Roles look fine to start with, as always it depends how the players play them. 

Regarding the rest of the settings, I'd suggest rather than thinking about counter or high press, think about controlling the middle third.  Not pinning opponents into there third, but not being too passive and dropping into your own third, especially when your expected to win and opponents are being defensive.  Then you can attack fast in a counter style even if a counter attack isn't triggered.  A simple aim is to have your player beat his marker by a pass or dribble before entering into the final third to try to cause a knock on effect of drawing other defenders out to cover for each other.

This should give your forward space to attack early, which is what (most) attack duty ST's are expected to do.  Just have to get the ball to him quickly, hopefully via the AP, don't need to be long ball but don't want to be too methodical with poor ball players holding up play.  Generally i'd look at a higher mentality, avoid too many possession instructions, if anything go quicker/earlier.  Defensively don't go too high but congest that midfield by pushing the d-line up a bit in a mid block and at most a split block press.

 

[Jack722]

I've started having a go myself after reading these replies , and i feel like i've had a decent start.

Results haven't been perfect, but at the moment i'm looking for performances over results

Edited April 18, 2020 by Jack722

[opgen22]

I also struggled with my Number 10 as I wanted to achieve him being the primary assist provider. He never worked in a 4-2-3-1 CM, though. As In real life I think, a great Number 10 has to be an extraordinary player at first. I guess the biggest problem could be that if you funnel down the play to your #10 and he fails to shine, you might get into problems.  However, this season, I gave my Number 10 more room in the central bei dropping the CMs to DMs and then he did was I was expecting him to do, although he is not thaaat great in terms of vision and passing. 

My goal was to get the ball with no risk from Defense the DMs to the Number 10, however my Segundo Volante has the PPM 'tries to play way out trouble', so that interfered with his 'lower risk' PI. 

But I'm really happy with his stats and average rating and also that this year my tactic really worked as intended.  He has a really high individual mentality, resulting in taking riskier passes. (increasing that with individual instructions). Not quite sure if it was a single season exception, but I never thought it was possible, as my #10s always had ratings like 6,5. This year, as he was on very offensive mentality, he made slightly over 2 KeyPasses/90. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by opgen22

[SixPointer]

Got my number ten at Banik breaking all sorts of assists and key passing records. But only thing was he never actually played in the number ten slot. I played him in the 8 with the advanced playmaker role but in game he played in the ten as the two more holding midfielders sat deeper. So you could argue not a ten as were he was played. But I found anytime I moved him into the ten slot he would just be marked out the game. 

[Overmars]

In my current save, my AMC has been my best player. He hasn't been successful in a conventional 4-2-3-1, though. I have had to rely on the following to get the best out of him:

1. Use him as free kick and corner taker - Great way to keep him in good form if his attributes merit it
2. Use him as an AP(s) or AP(a) in central midfield - He can do most of what he can do in the AMC spot, but it allows us to keep a nicer defensive shape
3. Use him as an AMC with another AMC and two forwards ahead of them in a narrow 4-2-2-2 - Feels a bit cheat-ish, but it overloads successfully
4. Stagger him off to the side as an AMCL with a ST(R) ahead of him - This seems to work better than keeping both players in a vertical line

If you are the better team, your opponents will likely pack the middle against you. Once that happens, your primary attacking methods will be crosses from out wide and earning set pieces from constantly having the ball in dangerous areas.

[saintrainhard]

Traits is important for him, AMC usually have high technique, passing, first touch, vision, so if he can try killer ball he can deliver great  ball to final third

My favorite traits is Look for pass rather than shot, this because he will usually give great pass for our forward/ winger to finish

Play one - two is another good traits because with this he can get into opposition area, especially if he has >15 finishing

If he has great dribbling,flair,stamina  and quicknes (acc,pace) then Run with ball through center is great addition too

Along with that, make sure improve his Decisions through training

 

[yorkie87]

I’ve given up trying to play a AMC. Tried everything to get it to work. Moved from a 4231 to a 433 with the old AMC now playing in Cm as a mezella attack. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by yorkie87

[Jack722]

I got to January with my Arsenal save trying to get an AP and AF combo working.  Aubameyang is currently the top scorer as the AF with a goal a game, so that's going well. However, after a good start, getting an assist every other game, Ozil's output has slowed down massively. This has led me to some conclusions which I believe to make sense:

* obviously I would need to experiment with other teams to make sure of these

• Advanced playmakers in the AMC strata at the top level will always struggle to perform
  • Why?
    • Most top teams have multiple technical players - it is wasting the talent of the rest of your squad by funneling the play through one player. (There will always be exceptions, like Messi)
    • Funneling the play also makes it easy for the opposition to block your threat by man marking. All they need is a DM with good marking and concentration.
    • The rise of pressing means that it's increasingly difficult to allow a player - especially someone in the midfield - to not have to work hard.
    • It's normal for teams at this level to flood the middle of the pitch by defending narrow
• Although I haven't tried, I think it would be easier to get an advanced playmaker to work at the lower levels
  • Why?
    • Due to the general popularity of physical play, opposition defences will expect lots of attacks through crosses, so may be more inclined to defend wider, and favour ariel players over those with good techinical defensive skills, like marking.
    • It's easier to find a player that's 'too good' for your team, either playing at a level one or two leagues above. This, coupled with the fact that most players are better physically than they are technically at this level, means that if you find a natural advanced playmaker who is 'too good' for your league, it makes sense to funnel most of your attacks through him.
    • The popularity of 442 means there is less likely to be a DM

I have been reading this thread and what O-zil says makes a lot of sense.  Basically, he prefers deep lying playmakers over advanced playmakers, because they have more runners ahead of them to make forward passes to. They also have more space to operate in. 

You can still use 'advanced playmaker' type of players in non playmaker roles, but then edit the pi's to make them play more risky passes, and dribble more. This allows them to be more expressive, like an advanced playmaker, but doesn't funnel the attack through this player.

In that thread, he uses Joao Felix in the AMC position as an attacking midfielder behind the striker, with a regista behind him. Felix ended up being his best player and won all the individual awards for that season.

I also don't believe that the AMC position is a problem with the match engine. How many top teams have side built around a typical advanced playmaker? Both James rodriguez and Ozil have struggled to even play games recently, after previously being world class. You could argue that there are players like Eriksen who have performed well recently. However, IIRC he is normally played on the right in a 4231. He also has an excellent work rate so isn't a 'luxury' player.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Jack722

[FMunderachiever]

I would say to get a number 10 to work, he needs options around him, but space to play in.

Im not the best at putting thoughts into FM language but i think Coutinho's performance for Bayern vs Spurs in the champions league tipified this. It was a game of rondo where Coutinho was always in the middle to receive the pass from Gnabry, Lewandowski, Tiago, Kimmich etc.

I would say having roles that drag defenders away from the number to position works well, so a striker running beyond rather than coming deep, and wide players staying wide would help.

 

[DocSnyder]

There is no really chance to get your "superstar" there I think. In a classic 4-2-3-1, the players with the best stats are the AMR / AML, because they have the space they need...my AMC position gets his chances for assists and goals, too, but the glory old time of "10s" is over. So my AMC is important for my pressing, my first defender who attacks the deep playmakers of the enemy.