3-4-3 Build Up Play - Tactical Advice

[ElJefe4]

Hi guys,

I've recently started my first save on FM20 as Valencia. I'm playing a 3-4-3 diamond. I've used Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s 3-4-3 Ajax tactic from a few years back as a starting point. At the moment my tactic is pretty much a shameless carbon copy of his.

Credit - https://community.sigames.com/topic/372887-johan-cruyffs-3-4-3-diamond-very-fluid/?ct=1587504421

FORMATION, TACTICS & RESULTS

 

 

Results so far have been very positive. Not quite what  I expected. I was expecting more goals at both ends. Instead, I've only conceded 3 goals in 9 matches (and only faced more than 5 shots on target in 2 matches (Barca & Atleti)). Going forward, I've scored 14 in 9. This isn't too bad, but this does include 4 penalties and 3 from set pieces. So from open play I've only scored 10 in 9. All but 1 from open play have been scored by whoever has been ST. Possession wise, I'm averaging 51.6% so far, although this is on an upward trend so is not my primary focus.

My questions are mostly to do with the aesthetics, the style of play as we build from the back and the way in which we use certain players and spaces on the pitch. I'm watching the games on comprehensive, so I feel as though I have a good feeling for the style of play and which players are most heavily involved. My biggest issue  is the lack of influence from 3 players, my 2 CMs and my AMC. For the majority of games so far the 2 CMs have been Kondogbia and Coquelin and the AMC is James. I have a few thoughts about the way we are playing compared to how I would like to see us play. Rather than rambling I'll bullet point them and provide a couple of screenshots which might be useful. If anyone has any ideas on how I can adjust my set up to improve on the below, I'd really appreciate it. Who knows, maybe this whole process of getting things down into words will help me too.

- During build up, the CMs are fairly narrow and static. Very little vertical or lateral movement. This does not fit in with the Cruyff 3-4-3.

- The narrow & static nature of the midfield diamond means both wingers are often in lots of space.

- We therefore go wide very early in build up play. Passing the ball to wingers in the middle third of the pitch. I want my wingers to be receiving the ball in more advanced positions, able to link with the CM on their side, AMC and ST.

- Due to lack of fluidity in the midfield, wingers are left isolated and forced to dribble half the length of the pitch and attempt a cross.

- As a result of the above, the AMC is rarely involved in build up play. Have a look at these screenshots:

The first is all of James's touches. The second is his pass map. As you can see, he is not able to receive the ball in areas of the pitch in which he can be effective.

 

THOUGHTS ON 'FIXES'

- I am reluctant to change too much with the overall shape of the team, due to the defensive solidity. Therefore I am looking for small tweaks that "free up" the above mentioned players in build up, but don't compromise our defensive structure too much. Here are some of the thoughts I've had on what to do, and my reservations about putting them into action yet. Hopefully people with a better understanding of the match engine might be able to let me know a bit more on this.

- Change Team Mentality from Balanced to Positive: The description for a positive team mentality states "Although... midfielders break ahead of the forwards, they will generally only do so during relatively risk-free situations and will usually sit back and help the midfield maintain possession until chances open up." This one has interested me a bit. Coquelin is more limited technically, but Kondogbia has some attributes which would lend itself to playing a more positive role. Even if they are not the most creative, both are high energy players who have the stamina to do more vertical running than they are currently doing. I am unsure, however, how much this shift in mentality would impact on my defensive solidity? From people's experience, is changing the mentality by one either way a minor or major shift? Would it lead the them abandoning their positions too early, leaving the DMC (Parejo) with limited options for recycling possession?

- Change Team Width to Wide: As I have mentioned, the midfield diamond tends to stay very narrow, leading to wingers becoming isolated. Would this 'drag' my 2 CMs further wide and stop my wingers being so isolated?  Or would making the team set up wider in possession exacerbate the problem? I used this in 1 game and let my Ass. Man do the briefing. I noted one of the instructions was something along the lines of "let's make sure we get the ball wide". This would not really be my aim. The aim would be to make the pitch as wide as possible to free up more room in the 'half spaces' for my central players.

- Allow certain players to roam from position - Should James be given more license to roam? Would this mean he moves more within the 'number 10' area, or would it lead to him dropping too deep just to get on the ball? 

- Change to Focus Play Through the Middle: This might place more emphasis on the players in the midfield diamond. They may look to play the ball between each other more often, rather than going straight to the winger and the first sign of space. Alternatively, would this force play through an already congested part of the pitch and ultimately slow us down?

 

Final point - my Team Fluidity is 'Structured', which is really the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. Seeing as there is no option to automatically change it, I am assuming it is 'decided' by the tactics I have chosen. In that case, would any of the above lead to this changing to 'fluid' or 'very fluid'?

As I said, this is my first proper save on this year's game and I'm really trying to get a deeper understanding of how my instructions are playing out on the pitch. I could easily go along with the current tactic as it is yielding very good results, but my main motivation is to get us playing a free-flowing 3-4-3 that the great man Johann would be proud of. Any help would be massively appreciated!

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by ElJefe4

[DimitrisLar]

9 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Hi guys,

I've recently started my first save on FM20 as Valencia. I'm playing a 3-4-3 diamond. I've used Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s 3-4-3 Ajax tactic from a few years back as a starting point. At the moment my tactic is pretty much a shameless carbon copy of his.

Credit - https://community.sigames.com/topic/372887-johan-cruyffs-3-4-3-diamond-very-fluid/?ct=1587504421

FORMATION, TACTICS & RESULTS

 

 

Results so far have been very positive. Not quite what  I expected. I was expecting more goals at both ends. Instead, I've only conceded 3 goals in 9 matches (and only faced more than 5 shots on target in 2 matches (Barca & Atleti)). Going forward, I've scored 14 in 9. This isn't too bad, but this does include 4 penalties and 3 from set pieces. So from open play I've only scored 10 in 9. All but 1 from open play have been scored by whoever has been ST. Possession wise, I'm averaging 51.6% so far, although this is on an upward trend so is not my primary focus.

My questions are mostly to do with the aesthetics, the style of play as we build from the back and the way in which we use certain players and spaces on the pitch. I'm watching the games on comprehensive, so I feel as though I have a good feeling for the style of play and which players are most heavily involved. My biggest issue  is the lack of influence from 3 players, my 2 CMs and my AMC. For the majority of games so far the 2 CMs have been Kondogbia and Coquelin and the AMC is James. I have a few thoughts about the way we are playing compared to how I would like to see us play. Rather than rambling I'll bullet point them and provide a couple of screenshots which might be useful. If anyone has any ideas on how I can adjust my set up to improve on the below, I'd really appreciate it. Who knows, maybe this whole process of getting things down into words will help me too.

- During build up, the CMs are fairly narrow and static. Very little vertical or lateral movement. This does not fit in with the Cruyff 3-4-3.

- The narrow & static nature of the midfield diamond means both wingers are often in lots of space.

- We therefore go wide very early in build up play. Passing the ball to wingers in the middle third of the pitch. I want my wingers to be receiving the ball in more advanced positions, able to link with the CM on their side, AMC and ST.

- Due to lack of fluidity in the midfield, wingers are left isolated and forced to dribble half the length of the pitch and attempt a cross.

- As a result of the above, the AMC is rarely involved in build up play. Have a look at these screenshots:

The first is all of James's touches. The second is his pass map. As you can see, he is not able to receive the ball in areas of the pitch in which he can be effective.

 

THOUGHTS ON 'FIXES'

- I am reluctant to change too much with the overall shape of the team, due to the defensive solidity. Therefore I am looking for small tweaks that "free up" the above mentioned players in build up, but don't compromise our defensive structure too much. Here are some of the thoughts I've had on what to do, and my reservations about putting them into action yet. Hopefully people with a better understanding of the match engine might be able to let me know a bit more on this.

- Change Team Mentality from Balanced to Positive: The description for a positive team mentality states "Although... midfielders break ahead of the forwards, they will generally only do so during relatively risk-free situations and will usually sit back and help the midfield maintain possession until chances open up." This one has interested me a bit. Coquelin is more limited technically, but Kondogbia has some attributes which would lend itself to playing a more positive role. Even if they are not the most creative, both are high energy players who have the stamina to do more vertical running than they are currently doing. I am unsure, however, how much this shift in mentality would impact on my defensive solidity? From people's experience, is changing the mentality by one either way a minor or major shift? Would it lead the them abandoning their positions too early, leaving the DMC (Parejo) with limited options for recycling possession?

- Change Team Width to Wide: As I have mentioned, the midfield diamond tends to stay very narrow, leading to wingers becoming isolated. Would this 'drag' my 2 CMs further wide and stop my wingers being so isolated?  Or would making the team set up wider in possession exacerbate the problem? I used this in 1 game and let my Ass. Man do the briefing. I noted one of the instructions was something along the lines of "let's make sure we get the ball wide". This would not really be my aim. The aim would be to make the pitch as wide as possible to free up more room in the 'half spaces' for my central players.

- Allow certain players to roam from position - Should James be given more license to roam? Would this mean he moves more within the 'number 10' area, or would it lead to him dropping too deep just to get on the ball? 

- Change to Focus Play Through the Middle: This might place more emphasis on the players in the midfield diamond. They may look to play the ball between each other more often, rather than going straight to the winger and the first sign of space. Alternatively, would this force play through an already congested part of the pitch and ultimately slow us down?

 

Final point - my Team Fluidity is 'Structured', which is really the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. Seeing as there is no option to automatically change it, I am assuming it is 'decided' by the tactics I have chosen. In that case, would any of the above lead to this changing to 'fluid' or 'very fluid'?

As I said, this is my first proper save on this year's game and I'm really trying to get a deeper understanding of how my instructions are playing out on the pitch. I could easily go along with the current tactic as it is yielding very good results, but my main motivation is to get us playing a free-flowing 3-4-3 that the great man Johann would be proud of. Any help would be massively appreciated!

 

 

 

mentality changes almost everything, you can see that from the changes that happen on the tempo and passing distance. 

about width, when you set up o narrow your team gives a priority in the central kind of build up, in wide it builts up from the flanks. It nothing to do with the focus play. Focus central will raise the mentality of central players and wide on wide players but it wont obligate the team to built up from these areas. Think of it like that: focus through the middle will make all the central on positive and the wide on balanced. But width will determine from where you built up. There is a very good video of rashidi explaining that. 

this must be. its huge but really worth watching

do you remember ozil to the arsenal's tactic where it had retain possesion? where is it now in the new tactical system? As Trimisiyu said the description of lower tempo seems close (or identical) with the retain possesion instruction. I use much lower tempo and much shorter passing in my tactic and it works fine, just got a domestic tremple with Lazio playing a progressive possesion tactic. I had the same problem scoring like you have but i had plenty of chances, it was down to my forward players incapability to converse. With the France national team 2 goals are the minimum.

I cant really comment on the roles you;ve set up, as i remember they are as ozil's. Take a look at the traits to be sure that the movements aren't contrasting. Also check if stay wider instruction on CM's might help you with their positioning not being so narrow.

If you find your BPD making a lot of long passes you can switch them to CD with take more risks+shorter passing, though it might have an influence on the support they give to your wings.

thats for now, hope these might help you!

[camoulton21]

I'm not the best when it comes to FM tactics but I have read O-zil's Cruyff thread and many of his other threads multiple times so I might be able to give you a few things to consider. I'll list them here:

• In O-zil's original thread he did used 'Mixed Passing' instead of 'Short Passing' referencing the desire to have players have the freedom to choose the right pass. He also didn't use 'Work Ball into Box', these might be tweaks you've made personally however
• O-zil tailored PIs specially for whatever player was utilised in the CM role. For instance Davy Klassen was encouraged to 'Get Further Forward' and 'Play More Risky Passes' all of which may suit Kondogbia as he is a dynamic player. Coquelin is more of a holding player so could be told to 'Pass Shorter' and 'Play Less Risky Passes'
• Alternatively, you could change the CMs to Carrileros. O-zil made this tweak in his most recent update of this tactic in his Caixa Football thread on page 14 or 15. This should make them player wider and give better options to the Wingers. The CM role is inherently static which its in-game role description alludes to
• The AMC not being involved is worrying because O-zil linked a Cruyff video where he explains how important that player was as an offensive pivot. Essentially, the player 'holds up the ball' to pass to on rushing midfielders before attacking the box themselves. Is James doing this?
• A Mentality change is quite a large tweak. I think somebody else would be better placed to give you advice here is I'll leave it at that
• Changing Att Width to wide would likely only cause more wing play instead of building through the diamond. If its only the CMs you want wider change their role or add the 'Stay Wider' PI
• Giving James 'Roam from position' may be a good idea as hes a good player. Something to consider though is that O-zil spoke on his original thread about not using that PI purposely because it may break the diamond shape. Cruyff speaks about this also in a video I've seen. I can't remember which one unfortunately. A different option O-zil used was to have the AMC and ST swap positions. However, I'm not sure it this would suit Rodrigo
• 'Focus Play through the middle' has been used by O-zil in his "Caixa Football" thread as a mentality modifier to make his team more compact by increasing the defend duty players individual mentality. Because we've lost the ability to modify individual mentality with the team shape instruction this may be something to consider. Also, O-zil has a preference for having the playmaker in the team have a mentality of at least Balanced so that they are more inclined to pass forwards. 'FPTTM' would up the DLPs mentality to satisfy this
• I wouldn't personally worry about what Team Fluidity says as I've learnt in these forums that its nothing more than a label. What I would focus on is using roles/duties to create a team that attacks and defends as one. This is a massive part of Cruyffs philosophy and from O-zil's thread it seems to me that he used Team Shape to emulate this. Because that feature is gone you may need to do that in other ways
• Soler might be better suited in the midfield with somebody like Guedes or Ferran playing out wide. O-zil used Che Nunnely in a wide position despite his poor defensive qualities and he won World Player of the Year
• When watching your matches I'd look out for a few things, are you making a 3-3-4 shape in attack, is there 2 diamonds being created in the build-up phase, how well do the wingers fall back into a defensive position

Your getting good results so making any changes is really up to you. Some of things I've listed may not be necessary but if you do want to make some tweaks hopefully you find this useful

[mp_87]

There is a problem with build up and how the game presents patterns of play (well, to my tastes at least, but also to many others also, as has been discussed ad infinitum) so it wont completely eliminate the problems, but I'd suggest changing the Wingers into Wide Midfielders. Much more versatile and less one dimensional.

[Experienced Defender]

The problem is that you are trying to replicate a tactic from FM17, which had a different ME and tactical creator, including the "Team shape" instruction, which does not exist anymore in FM (as of FM19). 

Maybe something like this might help you get closer to what you are trying to achieve (at least when it comes to roles and duties):

CFat

AMat

WMsu    MEZsu   DLPde   MEZsu    WMsu

BPDde  CDco   BPDde

SKsu

Or maybe this:

CFsu

AMat

WMat    CAR   DLPde   CAR   WMat

[Adonalsium]

Definitely agree on Wide Midfielders. They simply play more intelligently than wingers.

I've been trying to make this same formation work in FM19 recently and run into the same issues as you have, OP. Most often I've recently been punished by balls down the channels and in possession I've struggled to create intelligent movement from midfield, which may also be slightly hampered by the match engine itself. When I started to tell my Central Midfielders to "Stay Wider", I began to notice them often arriving into tons of space when my players switched possession, operating in exactly those half-spaces. So my hope is that with Carrileros this approach will be replicated even more dynamically, considering it is a more mobile role than a CM.

[ElJefe4]

On 22/04/2020 at 09:37, DimitrisLar said:

mentality changes almost everything, you can see that from the changes that happen on the tempo and passing distance. 

about width, when you set up o narrow your team gives a priority in the central kind of build up, in wide it builts up from the flanks. It nothing to do with the focus play. Focus central will raise the mentality of central players and wide on wide players but it wont obligate the team to built up from these areas. Think of it like that: focus through the middle will make all the central on positive and the wide on balanced. But width will determine from where you built up. There is a very good video of rashidi explaining that. 

this must be. its huge but really worth watching

do you remember ozil to the arsenal's tactic where it had retain possesion? where is it now in the new tactical system? As Trimisiyu said the description of lower tempo seems close (or identical) with the retain possesion instruction. I use much lower tempo and much shorter passing in my tactic and it works fine, just got a domestic tremple with Lazio playing a progressive possesion tactic. I had the same problem scoring like you have but i had plenty of chances, it was down to my forward players incapability to converse. With the France national team 2 goals are the minimum.

I cant really comment on the roles you;ve set up, as i remember they are as ozil's. Take a look at the traits to be sure that the movements aren't contrasting. Also check if stay wider instruction on CM's might help you with their positioning not being so narrow.

If you find your BPD making a lot of long passes you can switch them to CD with take more risks+shorter passing, though it might have an influence on the support they give to your wings.

thats for now, hope these might help you!

Thanks mate! I'll work my way through that video, looks really useful. I'll try the slightly lower tempo, might encourage my players to build play a bit more patiently. And I'll be experimenting with the CMs a lot I suspect, so the Stay Wider PI will definitely be getting a run out.

On 22/04/2020 at 12:02, camoulton21 said:

I'm not the best when it comes to FM tactics but I have read O-zil's Cruyff thread and many of his other threads multiple times so I might be able to give you a few things to consider. I'll list them here:

• In O-zil's original thread he did used 'Mixed Passing' instead of 'Short Passing' referencing the desire to have players have the freedom to choose the right pass. He also didn't use 'Work Ball into Box', these might be tweaks you've made personally however
• O-zil tailored PIs specially for whatever player was utilised in the CM role. For instance Davy Klassen was encouraged to 'Get Further Forward' and 'Play More Risky Passes' all of which may suit Kondogbia as he is a dynamic player. Coquelin is more of a holding player so could be told to 'Pass Shorter' and 'Play Less Risky Passes'
• Alternatively, you could change the CMs to Carrileros. O-zil made this tweak in his most recent update of this tactic in his Caixa Football thread on page 14 or 15. This should make them player wider and give better options to the Wingers. The CM role is inherently static which its in-game role description alludes to
• The AMC not being involved is worrying because O-zil linked a Cruyff video where he explains how important that player was as an offensive pivot. Essentially, the player 'holds up the ball' to pass to on rushing midfielders before attacking the box themselves. Is James doing this?
• A Mentality change is quite a large tweak. I think somebody else would be better placed to give you advice here is I'll leave it at that
• Changing Att Width to wide would likely only cause more wing play instead of building through the diamond. If its only the CMs you want wider change their role or add the 'Stay Wider' PI
• Giving James 'Roam from position' may be a good idea as hes a good player. Something to consider though is that O-zil spoke on his original thread about not using that PI purposely because it may break the diamond shape. Cruyff speaks about this also in a video I've seen. I can't remember which one unfortunately. A different option O-zil used was to have the AMC and ST swap positions. However, I'm not sure it this would suit Rodrigo
• 'Focus Play through the middle' has been used by O-zil in his "Caixa Football" thread as a mentality modifier to make his team more compact by increasing the defend duty players individual mentality. Because we've lost the ability to modify individual mentality with the team shape instruction this may be something to consider. Also, O-zil has a preference for having the playmaker in the team have a mentality of at least Balanced so that they are more inclined to pass forwards. 'FPTTM' would up the DLPs mentality to satisfy this
• I wouldn't personally worry about what Team Fluidity says as I've learnt in these forums that its nothing more than a label. What I would focus on is using roles/duties to create a team that attacks and defends as one. This is a massive part of Cruyffs philosophy and from O-zil's thread it seems to me that he used Team Shape to emulate this. Because that feature is gone you may need to do that in other ways
• Soler might be better suited in the midfield with somebody like Guedes or Ferran playing out wide. O-zil used Che Nunnely in a wide position despite his poor defensive qualities and he won World Player of the Year
• When watching your matches I'd look out for a few things, are you making a 3-3-4 shape in attack, is there 2 diamonds being created in the build-up phase, how well do the wingers fall back into a defensive position

Your getting good results so making any changes is really up to you. Some of things I've listed may not be necessary but if you do want to make some tweaks hopefully you find this useful

Great points mate, thanks a lot! Regarding the passing and WBIB, I thought this might avoid going too long/direct into wide areas and crossing too often. The player instructions are a really good idea, now that you mention them I do remember reading them from O-zil's thread but they're not something I've used too much yet, giving Kondogbia a bit more freedom and having Coquelin stay disciplined sounds like it'd allow me to keep the solidity so I'll be putting those to the test straight away. I'll take a look at O-zil's current thread as well, I'm assuming it is for FM20?

Regarding James holding the ball up, I'm not getting this from him at all. Virtually none of my attacking moves are involving him at the moment. Really annoying as I was buzzing to bring him in as a deadline day loan! I get what you mean about keeping the shape of the diamond, I'm not sure really show *how much* he would roam from position if I add that PI.

Soler will definitely be getting used in that right CM role for sure, particularly in games that I expect to be on the front foot and don't need Coquelin's defensive abilities. I note that the game suggests he'd be ideal as a Mezzala. This role mentions drifting wide and getting into half-spaces. It sounds ideal, are there any potential drawbacks that you're aware of?

On 22/04/2020 at 17:24, mp_87 said:

There is a problem with build up and how the game presents patterns of play (well, to my tastes at least, but also to many others also, as has been discussed ad infinitum) so it wont completely eliminate the problems, but I'd suggest changing the Wingers into Wide Midfielders. Much more versatile and less one dimensional.

 

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The problem is that you are trying to replicate a tactic from FM17, which had a different ME and tactical creator, including the "Team shape" instruction, which does not exist anymore in FM (as of FM19). 

Maybe something like this might help you get closer to what you are trying to achieve (at least when it comes to roles and duties):

CFat

AMat

WMsu    MEZsu   DLPde   MEZsu    WMsu

BPDde  CDco   BPDde

SKsu

Or maybe this:

CFsu

AMat

WMat    CAR   DLPde   CAR   WMat

 

6 hours ago, Adonalsium said:

Definitely agree on Wide Midfielders. They simply play more intelligently than wingers.

I've been trying to make this same formation work in FM19 recently and run into the same issues as you have, OP. Most often I've recently been punished by balls down the channels and in possession I've struggled to create intelligent movement from midfield, which may also be slightly hampered by the match engine itself. When I started to tell my Central Midfielders to "Stay Wider", I began to notice them often arriving into tons of space when my players switched possession, operating in exactly those half-spaces. So my hope is that with Carrileros this approach will be replicated even more dynamically, considering it is a more mobile role than a CM.

Few mentions of wide midfielders as well. How much does this impact upon their position in possession? I'd like them to remain quite high and mainly be involved in the final third. Would changing them to wide midfielders mean they'd spend more time in the middle third, along with the CMs?

 

Thanks everyone for the replies!

[mp_87]

5 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Few mentions of wide midfielders as well. How much does this impact upon their position in possession? I'd like them to remain quite high and mainly be involved in the final third. Would changing them to wide midfielders mean they'd spend more time in the middle third, along with the CMs?

 

Thanks everyone for the replies!

Really multifunctional role, you can do pretty much anything with it.

 

A WM with support duty will tend not to get in the penalty area and prioritise holding the width, attack duty will look to get into the box and be a proper threat in front of goal. I find PPM's of an individual player also gives additional flavour in what is more of a default, blank canvas role - Runs down right/left, Hugs Line, Cuts Inside, Likes to beat offside trap, Gets into area, etc - so can be used in so many ways depending on your tactics and the player(s) you have at your disposal.

Edited April 23, 2020 by mp_87

[Tilling]

How are you setting the team up in transition and out of possession? 

[ElJefe4]

6 hours ago, Tilling said:

How are you setting the team up in transition and out of possession? 

Counter-press. Counter when possession has been won. GK distribute to CBs.

Defend narrower, much higher LOE, much higher defensive line, tighter marking, extremely urgent pressing, prevent short GK distribution.

 

Failed to score in 5 of the last 7. Defence bailed me out in 3 of those with 0-0 draws. Included Bayern at home and Sevilla away so not the worst results in the world. I then scraped past 10 man Leganes thanks to a set piece and a penalty.

A 5-0 win against Mallorca followed that. Great on paper but 2 were direct FKs. One of them the oppo GK literally booted the ball into Rodrigo (out of his own hands) which looped in. Another the GK kicked the ball directly to Torres who ran straight through to score 1 on 1. 

Hoped it might give us a confidence boost going forward, but I've since lost 1-0 away Bayern and 1-0 away at Getafe.

[ElJefe4]

Regarding the tactics for those matches. I've dropped the tempo and taken off 'Pass into Space'. I hoped this might encourage us to work the ball a bit more intricately through the middle.

I've changed Kondogbia's role to Carrilero, with the Get Further Forward PI. I've kept Coquelin on CM (S) for balance. When I've used Soler in the RCM position I've given him the same role and instructions as Kondogbia on the other side. I've also switched the wide players to WM (A). Not great so far, unsure if I've changed too much and therefore can't pin point exactly which changes are helping/hindering us the most. 

[slipperyjohns]

Going to follow this closey - nice work! This is something I've wanted to try and replicate in FM19 onwards for a while but never persisted. Crossing my fingers O-zil decides to pick up FM20 and give this a crack, but I don't think that's very likely.

[alanschu14]

On 22/04/2020 at 02:37, DimitrisLar said:

about width, when you set up o narrow your team gives a priority in the central kind of build up, in wide it builts up from the flanks. It nothing to do with the focus play. Focus central will raise the mentality of central players and wide on wide players but it wont obligate the team to built up from these areas. Think of it like that: focus through the middle will make all the central on positive and the wide on balanced. But width will determine from where you built up. There is a very good video of rashidi explaining that. 

I hadn't really realized this. Thanks for sharing!

[BMNJohn]

On 22/04/2020 at 23:33, Experienced Defender said:

The problem is that you are trying to replicate a tactic from FM17, which had a different ME and tactical creator, including the "Team shape" instruction, which does not exist anymore in FM (as of FM19). 

Maybe something like this might help you get closer to what you are trying to achieve (at least when it comes to roles and duties):

CFat

AMat

WMsu    MEZsu   DLPde   MEZsu    WMsu

BPDde  CDco   BPDde

SKsu

Or maybe this:

CFsu

AMat

WMat    CAR   DLPde   CAR   WMat

I've tried both versions... I think I prefer wingers and inverted wingers on Support, or even wingbacks on Attack duty on the wing. It gives the team more penetration on the flanks. Granted, you can customize the WM role to ask them to dribble more and get further forward, but their behaviour off the ball is not quite the same in the runs they make. That being said, this formation never was meant to be "plug and play" and users could be using ; and if it's not often seen in modern football, there's a reason why.

[DimitrisLar]

9 minutes ago, BMNJohn said:

 and if it's not often seen in modern football, there's a reason why.

the same has been said about 2 strikers partnership but Conte made it happen. It's never like that. It just happens that most managers dont make each scheme work properly and many others dont have the time to switch playing stuff. The problem with this kind of formations is that when you set up a formation, the shape we see at first is the defending shape, but this tactic is almost identical to its attacking perspective. If it was an other style, a counter attack from deep it might be fine but with possession that strikes me bad. Look at these

Monaco (my team) in possession. We scored 2 goals in the first half otherwide it'd be mirrored cause i needed width fom my right flank, so the mezz would be a little closer to the striker and right IF with more space, not like that.

 

Monaco without possesion

 

Now counter attacking saint Ettienne in possession 

Saint Ettienne without possession

In the first case you see a shape that can be schemed with different roles etc, in Saint Ettiene's though its the same formation more up the pitch. My striker would be a player from the midfield and my left IF, who has tucked in, could be my striker who is a DLP(s) with stay wider, dribbles to the left and comes deep to get ball. I might be wrong but..

[Overmars]

On 21/04/2020 at 18:35, ElJefe4 said:

- During build up, the CMs are fairly narrow and static. Very little vertical or lateral movement. This does not fit in with the Cruyff 3-4-3.

- The narrow & static nature of the midfield diamond means both wingers are often in lots of space.

- We therefore go wide very early in build up play. Passing the ball to wingers in the middle third of the pitch. I want my wingers to be receiving the ball in more advanced positions, able to link with the CM on their side, AMC and ST.

- Due to lack of fluidity in the midfield, wingers are left isolated and forced to dribble half the length of the pitch and attempt a cross.

- As a result of the above, the AMC is rarely involved in build up play. Have a look at these screenshots:

The first is all of James's touches. The second is his pass map. As you can see, he is not able to receive the ball in areas of the pitch in which he can be effective.

How would you defend against your formation? Pack the middle, right? The AI is particularly excited to do that in FM20 and will make playing through the middle a real minefield. The only space you are going to get on the pitch is out wide, and your players are being sensible by trying to get the ball out wide rather than attempt to push through a packed 10 man middle defending them.

Maybe you can drop a player back to DM and keep them as your recycle possession safety net, which would allow your other two central midfielders the opportunity to play more attacking roles. Or maybe you can use wingbacks instead of wingers like almost every 3 at the back system would do.

Honestly, it's disappointing that the AI isn't able to score against this formation. It makes me think that fullbacks aren't great defensively so by not using them at all you really aren't missing much on the defensive end.

[BMNJohn]

4 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

the same has been said about 2 strikers partnership but Conte made it happen. It's never like that. It just happens that most managers dont make each scheme work properly and many others dont have the time to switch playing stuff. The problem with this kind of formations is that when you set up a formation, the shape we see at first is the defending shape, but this tactic is almost identical to its attacking perspective. If it was an other style, a counter attack from deep it might be fine but with possession that strikes me bad. Look at these

Monaco (my team) in possession. We scored 2 goals in the first half otherwide it'd be mirrored cause i needed width fom my right flank, so the mezz would be a little closer to the striker and right IF with more space, not like that.

 

Monaco without possesion

 

Now counter attacking saint Ettienne in possession 

Saint Ettienne without possession

In the first case you see a shape that can be schemed with different roles etc, in Saint Ettiene's though its the same formation more up the pitch. My striker would be a player from the midfield and my left IF, who has tucked in, could be my striker who is a DLP(s) with stay wider, dribbles to the left and comes deep to get ball. I might be wrong but..

I say doesn't happen for a different reason. 5-4-1 Diamond is easier to defend on the wings than 3-4-3 Diamond while having a fairly similar shape offensively. IRL, you'd have more flexibility in how you set up your CBs to move. Simone Inzaghi has a similar formation working with overlapping CBs pushing forward to bring width and using Wingbacks instead of pure wingers. Overlapping CBs is hard to achieve within FM since there's a lot more rigidity in how the tactical creator works. Guardiola tried the 3-4-3 Diamond it with Barcelona, but on the right flank there was a defensive issue with Pedro, Dani Alves and Mascherano, Mascherano having to defend on his own too often IIRC. The main issue is that unlike in the 90s, modern football has a lot more attacking fullbacks and inside forwards who could mercilessly exploit the channels if you're late to track back or shift the defence from one flank to another.

Edited April 25, 2020 by BMNJohn

[Adonalsium]

Just to give an idea of what the attacking play looked like in general with this system. GIFs taken from games in my FC St. Pauli save, in which I am a heavy underdog for most games.

Build up through the middle, funneled out wide usually

This time the center is totally closed off, and Daehli attempts a cross to the far post for Joveljic (which should've come about 4-5 seconds earlier)

Joveljic drops deep and Daehli runs into the created space hoping for a through ball or a flick-on, but is left frustrated. Ball funneled out wide and out for a throw-in

And finally, a good counter-attack that results in a goal. Joveljic and #13 tie up the attention of the Mainz defenders, while my shadow striker Guiagon makes a run from deep to score.

(I kind of prefer Shadow Strikers now over Attacking Midfielders, they just seem more dynamic and deadly)

Edited April 27, 2020 by Adonalsium